1869 odpowiedzi w tym temacie

[Ziggeh]

filaminstrel wrote...

My issue with it is how they specifically bring a demon to the mage's region of the Fade for him to face. I'm not sure this is wise or necessary. I understand that they want to make sure he's ready, particularly because it's not only the mage's safety at stake when he encounters a demon, but there ought to be some way of executing a final test that doesn't involve throwing the self defense student in a back alley to face off against a rapist...

You'd imagine most of their time would be spent learning to deal with such things, a gradual learning curve in how to survive life as a mage. Understanding Demons: 101.

[Blacklash93]

When does Anders ever say he thinks Mages should not be completely free?

[Heimdall]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Their entire society is based around mages they wouldn't want their population to become power mad creatures like Uldren any more than we would. The Harrowing is one of probably many other ways to make sure such things happen.  If you want to believe that the Tevinter is full of Uldreds than you can go ahead but the fact they have had a stable government for centruies if not a millenia tend to say no their government doens't have many abominations in it.

As for the Blight....Really? You're going to buy the Chantry's propaganda about that? The truth is no one truly knows right now what caused the Blights or what made the Darkspawn.

As I said, the harrowing is not full proof though it is a good idea.  I didn't say that it was full of Uldreds, I was just saying it would be childsplay for a demon to go unnoticed.  The Tervintor Imperium lasted for centuries but that does not mean they didn't have issues with abominations.  It just means that they were able to contain the events as the Templar's do and have.

As for the Blight, try and dismiss it as Chantry propaganda if you wish but really there is no proof towards the idea that it isn't at the very least partly true.

[Dhiro]

Ziggeh wrote...

filaminstrel wrote...

My issue with it is how they specifically bring a demon to the mage's region of the Fade for him to face. I'm not sure this is wise or necessary. I understand that they want to make sure he's ready, particularly because it's not only the mage's safety at stake when he encounters a demon, but there ought to be some way of executing a final test that doesn't involve throwing the self defense student in a back alley to face off against a rapist...

You'd imagine most of their time would be spent learning to deal with such things, a gradual learning curve in how to survive life as a mage. Understanding Demons: 101.

And still there are mages that can't deal with the demon.

[Demx]

filaminstrel wrote...

I think the system of forcefully taking mages at a young age to make sure they know how to use their powers without becoming an abomination or such is important, though they should be more lax after the mage has proven himself. Also the Rite of Tranquility and the Harrowing are a bit questionable.

Sounds like it would require a larger budget and more templars. People would consider it's the templars fault if anything should to go wrong with a mage that was trained in the tower. And it's not like mages live short lives, the templars would have to stay in contact with each mage for their entire life to check up on them.

[Eclipse_9990]

Dhiro wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

The morality of the country is not what is in question here. The question was can Mages be free and be trusted not to become Abominations. Clearly the Tevinter has found a way of allowing every Mage freedom and we don't see Abominations coming out of that place.

*sigh* Yes, and we know how a country full of mages, ruled by mages, turned out.

Um.. It actually turned out well I don't know what point your trying to make..
The only bad things that happened to them was freakin Andraste ruining ****.. That and they're fighting off the Qunari..Successfully I might add.
Tevinter is still extremely powerful despite all this stuff..Arguably more powerful than the other nations.. 

Beside the fact that the Teviter Imperium was a nation governed by magisters that opressed everyone?

Also, Blood Magic was common in Tevinter Imperium. Hmm, remember how our Warden learn Blood Magic? Demon.

Wow you acting like the other nations don't oppress people.. Example Antiva.. The Crows can  pretty much do whatever the **** they want without repercussions. Its like the comic book "WANTED" but with less super villains and more Assassins.. Oh and lets not forget the Qunari they oppress they're people with the knowledge that its the citizens "duty" to do whatever the Arishok tells them.  

Also yes I remember how my Warden learned blood magic. I scared the desire demon into leaving Connor forevor and teaching me the forbidden arts... Whats the problem? 

And you think that every mage is our Warden? But I'm getting out of my point. Just because a country, let's say Antive, opress A, that doesn't mean is okay for mages to make a country and opress people too.

Okay.. First. On the blood mage thing. You don't necessarily have to learn it from demons.. Awakenings even had a bloody pamphlet for that.. 

Second. Who says the mages are going to necessarily oppress people? You talk like "Oh noes! They're mages so that means they're DEFINETLY going to enslave everyone! bleh bleh!" If it was a group of normals fighting for they're freedom you wouldnt even worry about them "oppressing" people. 
Mages have the same capacity for good and evil, as any normal person the only difference is that Mages are naturally better equipped to reinforce those things. I.E Healing(Healthier citizens), Education(Smarter leaders), Power(Great for protecting they're citizens, and Conquering enemies..). 

Third. Who would you rather have as a ruler? 

Wise, powerful, ambitious, and intelligent leaders? (Mages/Tevinter)
Barbarians who constantly run the risk of fighting amongst each other?(Ferelden)
Spoiled nobility who spend more time sucking up to the empress/emperor, and sabotaging each other rather than helping they're nation?(Orlais) 
Corrupt nobles who kill everyone who doesnt agree with them?(Antiva)
Or leaders who basically brainwash people into doing what they say?(Qunari)

Out of the choices presented here I'd go with the Mages/Tevinters.. 

Użytkownik Eclipse_9990 edytował ten post 17 styczeń 2011 - 09:41

[Heimdall]

filaminstrel wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

The harrowing actually seems like a good idea to make sure a mage is strong willed enough to defend themselves from a demon, but after a mage passes it they should be granted much more freedom.

My issue with it is how they specifically bring a demon to the mage's region of the Fade for him to face. I'm not sure this is wise or necessary. I understand that they want to make sure he's ready, particularly because it's not only the mage's safety at stake when he encounters a demon, but there ought to be some way of executing a final test that doesn't involve throwing the self defense student in a back alley to face off against a rapist...

I always saw it as more of a final exam, a culmination of all the mage as learned up to that point.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

October Sixth wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

The morality of the country is not what is in question here. The question was can Mages be free and be trusted not to become Abominations. Clearly the Tevinter has found a way of allowing every Mage freedom and we don't see Abominations coming out of that place.

*sigh* Yes, and we know how a country full of mages, ruled by mages, turned out.

Are you paying attention to what I'm saying at all? I'm not talking about putting mages in charge I'm pointing to the fact that the Tevinter have free mages running around their country and they have rituals in place to ensure that they don't become Abominations.

To the poster who asked how do we know there arn't abominations in Tevinter?... Did you not see Uldren? Do you really think if there were full fledged abominations like him in that country that they wouldn't be able to cross a simple border into another country?

You mean capable of perfectly mimicing human form...  sure and nobody would ever know about it.  Letting all mages go about without having them go through something like the Harrowing would really not be a good idea though and even then they can do stupid things like say... starting the first Blight?

Nobody is strictly saying the Mages need to be controlled by the chantry but many like myself believe they need to be watched and contained until properly prepared and trained.  The Templars and the Chantry just go too far.

Their entire society is based around mages they wouldn't want their population to become power mad creatures like Uldren any more than we would. The Harrowing is one of probably many other ways to make sure such things happen.  If you want to believe that the Tevinter is full of Uldreds than you can go ahead but the fact they have had a stable government for centruies if not a millenia tend to say no their government doens't have many abominations in it.

As for the Blight....Really? You're going to buy the Chantry's propaganda about that? The truth is no one truly knows right now what caused the Blights or what made the Darkspawn.

Just because Tevinter or Rivain provide ancedotal evidence of benign interaction with spirits/mage does not mean that their practices can just be transplanted to Ferelden with no ill effects.

Flemeth, Morrigan, and Connor are the best example we have of mages raised outside the circle. I don't think any of them are condusive to a safe and stable society.

No, Flemeth, Morrigan, and Connor are an example of no system. Like I've said the Tevinter have a system to ensure Abominations don't go running  around their country.

[Ziggeh]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Third. Who would you rather have as a ruler?

Not sure I'd be queuing up to live in the land of "inviting pride demons to take direct authority over large sections of the populace" to be honest.

[Dhiro]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

The morality of the country is not what is in question here. The question was can Mages be free and be trusted not to become Abominations. Clearly the Tevinter has found a way of allowing every Mage freedom and we don't see Abominations coming out of that place.

*sigh* Yes, and we know how a country full of mages, ruled by mages, turned out.

Um.. It actually turned out well I don't know what point your trying to make..
The only bad things that happened to them was freakin Andraste ruining ****.. That and they're fighting off the Qunari..Successfully I might add.
Tevinter is still extremely powerful despite all this stuff..Arguably more powerful than the other nations.. 

Beside the fact that the Teviter Imperium was a nation governed by magisters that opressed everyone?

Also, Blood Magic was common in Tevinter Imperium. Hmm, remember how our Warden learn Blood Magic? Demon.

Wow you acting like the other nations don't oppress people.. Example Antiva.. The Crows can  pretty much do whatever the **** they want without repercussions. Its like the comic book "WANTED" but with less super villains and more Assassins.. Oh and lets not forget the Qunari they oppress they're people with the knowledge that its the citizens "duty" to do whatever the Arishok tells them.  

Also yes I remember how my Warden learned blood magic. I scared the desire demon into leaving Connor forevor and teaching me the forbidden arts... Whats the problem? 

And you think that every mage is our Warden? But I'm getting out of my point. Just because a country, let's say Antive, opress A, that doesn't mean is okay for mages to make a country and opress people too.

Okay.. First. On the blood mage thing. You don't necessarily have to learn it from demons.. Awakenings even had a bloody pamphlet for that.. 

Second. Who says the mages are going to necessarily oppress people? You talk like "Oh noes! They're mages so that means they're DEFINETLY going to enslave everyone! bleh bleh!" If it was a group of normals fighting for they're freedom you wouldnt even worry about them "oppressing" people. 
Mages have the same capacity for good and evil, as any normal person the only difference is that Mages are naturally better equipped to reinforce those things. I.E Healing(Healthier citizens), Education(Smarter leaders), Power(Great for protecting they're citizens, and Conquering enemies..). 

Third. Who would you rather have as a ruler? 

Wise, powerful, ambitious, and intelligent leaders? (Mages/Tevinter)
Barbarians who constantly run the risk of fighting amongst each other?(Ferelden)
Spoiled nobility who spend more time sucking up to the empress/emperor, and sabotaging each other rather than helping they're nation?(Orlais) 
Corrupt nobles who kill everyone who doesnt agree with them?(Antiva)
Or leaders who basically brainwash people into doing what they say?(Qunari)

Out of the choices presented here I'd go with the Mages/Tevinters.. 

Normal people can't shoot fireballs. Normal people can't be posessed by a evil creature and kill they loved ones. Not all mages are bad, but you know that eventually a mage bad enough or greed enough will rise and it will be chaos.

[Heimdall]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Yeah and we know it isn't full proof, Uldred went through a harrowing too.

Indeed, mental fortiitude (itself not a constant) clearly isn't the final word on the matter.

Uldred was a result of the Cicle as much as it was blood magic. The reason why Uldred turned to dark magic was so he could be free. How many people here would pick up a sword and kill people who stole your freedom away from you simply because you were born different.

Uldred is a 50/50 Circle/Dark Magic problem.

And there is absolutely nothing stopping a mage in Tervinter from doing the same thing.  Should the mage want power enough for any reason, there is nothing stopping an Uldred from happening.  Even less, as there isn't a trained anti mage force standing nearby and on hand.

[October Sixth]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

October Sixth wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

The morality of the country is not what is in question here. The question was can Mages be free and be trusted not to become Abominations. Clearly the Tevinter has found a way of allowing every Mage freedom and we don't see Abominations coming out of that place.

*sigh* Yes, and we know how a country full of mages, ruled by mages, turned out.

Are you paying attention to what I'm saying at all? I'm not talking about putting mages in charge I'm pointing to the fact that the Tevinter have free mages running around their country and they have rituals in place to ensure that they don't become Abominations.

To the poster who asked how do we know there arn't abominations in Tevinter?... Did you not see Uldren? Do you really think if there were full fledged abominations like him in that country that they wouldn't be able to cross a simple border into another country?

You mean capable of perfectly mimicing human form...  sure and nobody would ever know about it.  Letting all mages go about without having them go through something like the Harrowing would really not be a good idea though and even then they can do stupid things like say... starting the first Blight?

Nobody is strictly saying the Mages need to be controlled by the chantry but many like myself believe they need to be watched and contained until properly prepared and trained.  The Templars and the Chantry just go too far.

Their entire society is based around mages they wouldn't want their population to become power mad creatures like Uldren any more than we would. The Harrowing is one of probably many other ways to make sure such things happen.  If you want to believe that the Tevinter is full of Uldreds than you can go ahead but the fact they have had a stable government for centruies if not a millenia tend to say no their government doens't have many abominations in it.

As for the Blight....Really? You're going to buy the Chantry's propaganda about that? The truth is no one truly knows right now what caused the Blights or what made the Darkspawn.

Just because Tevinter or Rivain provide ancedotal evidence of benign interaction with spirits/mage does not mean that their practices can just be transplanted to Ferelden with no ill effects.

Flemeth, Morrigan, and Connor are the best example we have of mages raised outside the circle. I don't think any of them are condusive to a safe and stable society.

No, Flemeth, Morrigan, and Connor are an example of no system. Like I've said the Tevinter have a system to ensure Abominations don't go running  around their country.

And what is that system? How would it work in Ferelden?

[Heimdall]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Okay.. First. On the blood mage thing. You don't necessarily have to learn it from demons.. Awakenings even had a bloody pamphlet for that.. 

Second. Who says the mages are going to necessarily oppress people? You talk like "Oh noes! They're mages so that means they're DEFINETLY going to enslave everyone! bleh bleh!" If it was a group of normals fighting for they're freedom you wouldnt even worry about them "oppressing" people. 
Mages have the same capacity for good and evil, as any normal person the only difference is that Mages are naturally better equipped to reinforce those things. I.E Healing(Healthier citizens), Education(Smarter leaders), Power(Great for protecting they're citizens, and Conquering enemies..). 

Third. Who would you rather have as a ruler? 

Wise, powerful, ambitious, and intelligent leaders? (Mages/Tevinter)
Barbarians who constantly run the risk of fighting amongst each other?(Ferelden)
Spoiled nobility who spend more time sucking up to the empress/emperor, and sabotaging each other rather than helping they're nation?(Orlais) 
Corrupt nobles who kill everyone who doesnt agree with them?(Antiva)
Or leaders who basically brainwash people into doing what they say?(Qunari)

Out of the choices presented here I'd go with the Mages/Tevinters.. 

Here's the thing, Mages are people, they can be dumb and inept, decadent and weak willed, corrupt and oppressive ect.

Secondly, Corrupt and oppressive fits the Tervinter magisters more than your description.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Dhiro wrote...

It's not okay, no one should be opressed.

That settles it, then.  Mages should be left unregulated.

[Dhiro]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

It's not okay, no one should be opressed.

That settles it, then.  Mages should be left unregulated.

I...You... that... not... argh.

[Demx]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

It's not okay, no one should be opressed.

That settles it, then.  Mages should be left unregulated.

Are you saying the circle tower of magi should be removed completely?

[JFarr74]

I think a mage should learn to control their powers in the Circle if they choose to and if they do, they should be let free whenever their training is complete

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Lord Aesir wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Yeah and we know it isn't full proof, Uldred went through a harrowing too.

Indeed, mental fortiitude (itself not a constant) clearly isn't the final word on the matter.

Uldred was a result of the Cicle as much as it was blood magic. The reason why Uldred turned to dark magic was so he could be free. How many people here would pick up a sword and kill people who stole your freedom away from you simply because you were born different.

Uldred is a 50/50 Circle/Dark Magic problem.

And there is absolutely nothing stopping a mage in Tervinter from doing the same thing.  Should the mage want power enough for any reason, there is nothing stopping an Uldred from happening.  Even less, as there isn't a trained anti mage force standing nearby and on hand.

How many times do I have to point out that they've had a stable government for a millenia before it sinks in that they were able to 1. Rule a country. and 2. stop anything from destabalizing it.

Abominations are like talking animals that just want to destroy things. Clearly Uldreds can happen in the Tevinter just like it can happen anywhere else but guess what clearly if and when that has ever happened they've been able to put a stop to it.

Also here's a thought the Philactory (sp) system that the Chantry uses to track down mages the Tevinter probably has too since Philactories(sp) are creations of the ancient Tevinters they probably have been using it for a similar purose. If one of their mages goes nuts they find him/her and kill him/her.

[Demx]

JFarr74 wrote...

I think a mage should learn to control their powers in the Circle if they choose to and if they do, they should be let free whenever their training is complete

Wouldn't people feel that the templars are responsible for the mages that completed their training?

[Maria Caliban]

Dhiro wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

It's not okay, no one should be opressed.

That settles it, then.  Mages should be left unregulated.

I...You... that... not... argh.

I saw that coming a mile away.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

It's not okay, no one should be opressed.

That settles it, then.  Mages should be left unregulated.

Regulation is not the same as oppression. Oppression is subjugating someone in an unjust or cruel manner.

Having to pass a standardized test to drive a car is a form of regulation. If only adult females could take that test while adult males were barred from it and could never drive, that would be oppression. Alternatively, barring five-year-olds from taking the test isn't oppressive.

I know a woman who's an epileptic. She's not allowed to drive a car. Ever. This doesn't mean she's oppressed. It means society understands that some people are at such a high risk for losing control while driving, that letting them drive would be a danger to the community.

Użytkownik Maria Caliban edytował ten post 17 styczeń 2011 - 10:04

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Lord Aesir wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Their entire society is based around mages they wouldn't want their population to become power mad creatures like Uldren any more than we would. The Harrowing is one of probably many other ways to make sure such things happen.  If you want to believe that the Tevinter is full of Uldreds than you can go ahead but the fact they have had a stable government for centruies if not a millenia tend to say no their government doens't have many abominations in it.

As for the Blight....Really? You're going to buy the Chantry's propaganda about that? The truth is no one truly knows right now what caused the Blights or what made the Darkspawn.

As I said, the harrowing is not full proof though it is a good idea.  I didn't say that it was full of Uldreds, I was just saying it would be childsplay for a demon to go unnoticed.  The Tervintor Imperium lasted for centuries but that does not mean they didn't have issues with abominations.  It just means that they were able to contain the events as the Templar's do and have.

FINALLY! And that's the entire basis for this entire conversation. You just admitted that a society that is ruled by mages is fully capable of having a system that can last for centuries and if an abomination shows up they are able to take care of it themselves.

So right there is the point. If one group of mages have a system that allows them to regulate themselves and have the ability to take care of any abominations that threaten that system than we have a system that doesn't need Templars... at least not anywhere near as much as they are used now.

[Avilia]

Blacklash93 wrote...

When does Anders ever say he thinks Mages should not be completely free?

If he's with you when you talk to Wynne in Amaranthine.  He shakes his head the whole time she's telling you about the conclave and then comments.

[Nashiktal]

Mages as leaders and rulers? That Orlesian noblewoman from awakening showed that is a terrible idea.



I suggest leaving mages in positions of advisement. Even then that can be dangerous, depending on a magic the mage uses.

[Ziggeh]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

FINALLY! And that's the entire basis for this entire conversation. You just admitted that a society that is ruled by mages is fully capable of having a system that can last for centuries and if an abomination shows up they are able to take care of it themselves.

But we don't know that. For all we know they were all abominations, who managed to keep it quiet in order to have a whole epire to happily feed upon.

We know they were making numerous deals with demons, which given the intention of demons generally sounds like someone, somewhere was getting the serious shaft. Maybe that's what all the slaves are for. Maybe their system to avoid abominations rampaging across the country side is to feed half of it to the demons in the first place.

[esigma444]

Blacklash93 wrote...

When does Anders ever say he thinks Mages should not be completely free?

To answer your question, Anders says this when you talk to Wynne in Amaranthine about a group of Mages voting wether to split from the chantry. She give s you a quest to go find a mage in the forest.