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[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What kind of logic is that?.... He had lots of choices. The Abomination just seemed the easier one. He is the sole person responsible for his own actions. You can't blame that on anyone else than himself.

Read that codex entry again.  The former templar specifically states in his own words that the mage made a deal with a demon because it was the only way he was going to live.  That is in fact Deal or Die.

-Polaris

So just because a Templar says it, it is the truth?.... Wow, that's a new one comming from you. What the mage did was a quick path to "survival" (being turned into an abomination is hardly survival). He could have done many things. The Templar however did not think the mage would succeed at that, but who knows? The idiot chose to become an Abomination instead.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 21 janvier 2011 - 06:57 .

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

An orginization is dependant on the goodwill of its followers. An Exalted March cannot happen unless the Andrastians are willing to join it. Therefore the destruction it will cause is not the result of a single person.
A mage can shoot a fireball, even if he doesn't want to (ie. it would have to be an untrained one for that, but the point still stands).

Until recently, no one would question an exalted march.  Also the Divine can send her templars anywhere exalted march or no.  The point is anyone with power is dangerous be they mage or even a mundane warrior.

What the Chantry has done is taken a particular danger unique to mages and viewed with alarm to justify ex post facto the imprisonment of all mages for the chantry's own power and aggrandizement.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What kind of logic is that?.... He had lots of choices. The Abomination just seemed the easier one. He is the sole person responsible for his own actions. You can't blame that on anyone else than himself.

Read that codex entry again.  The former templar specifically states in his own words that the mage made a deal with a demon because it was the only way he was going to live.  That is in fact Deal or Die.

-Polaris

So just because a Templar says it, it is the truth?.... Wow, that's a new one comming from you. What the mage did was a quick path to "survival" (being turned into an abomination is hardly survival). He could have done many things. The Templar however did not think the mage would succeed at that, but who knows? The idiot chose to become an Abomination instead.

The templar being a templar has no reason to lie about this point and every reason to shade the truth the other way.  Thus I think his statement can be taken at face value.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

Even if the Divine send her Templars she is still dependant on the Templar's doing what she wants them to. There is so many places down the chain from aperson in power where it can go wrong, and nullify the threat. From a mage, there is no chain. The mage himself is the threat.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What kind of logic is that?.... He had lots of choices. The Abomination just seemed the easier one. He is the sole person responsible for his own actions. You can't blame that on anyone else than himself.

Read that codex entry again.  The former templar specifically states in his own words that the mage made a deal with a demon because it was the only way he was going to live.  That is in fact Deal or Die.

-Polaris

So just because a Templar says it, it is the truth?.... Wow, that's a new one comming from you. What the mage did was a quick path to "survival" (being turned into an abomination is hardly survival). He could have done many things. The Templar however did not think the mage would succeed at that, but who knows? The idiot chose to become an Abomination instead.

The templar being a templar has no reason to lie about this point and every reason to shade the truth the other way.  Thus I think his statement can be taken at face value.

-Polaris

I'm not saying he was lieing. I'm just saying it is possible he was overconfident.

[IanPolaris]

expanding panic wrote...

I am thinking that it depends on the endings you chose. If you chose to free the mages from the chantry then they'll be free.

You can't at least in DA1.  The Chantry says "No" to the King (or Queen) of Fereldan and that is that.  I hope that this will bite the Chantry in the Arse in DA2.

-Polaris

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[QUOTE] Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It's you the one whos' been trivilizing the danger mages posses and just how complicated their issue is.

The circles ultimitavely being a good thing is not debetable - less abominations running amok, the lands being safer.

Thisk of it as segragation if oyu wll - but in essence it is more similar to a quarantene.
And if there was a quarantene near your town, you'd be singing a different tune. We all know it. [/quote]

This thread wouldn't exist if the Chantry's treatment of mages wasn't debatable, Lotion, nor would the several other threads with similiar issues about mages and templars. The relationship between the Chantry and the mages has even been considered everything from imprisonment to enslavement. You debate that things are safe because the mages are locked up, but is that true? How much safer would things be if the mages were allowed to use their powers against the darkspawn in the Deep Roads? Consider how many mages could be combating the darkspawn from multiple points, and there might have never been four more Blights after the first.[/quote]


LOl..

no my friends...No.

You see, people can argue anything, no matter how wrong or stupid it is. People argue the subject of morality, right and wrong..some belive Elvis is still alive or that moon is made of cheese. Hardly debate-worthy.

What the Chantry does is logical. Practical. Efficient. If mages existed in the real world, I'm willing to bet they would be treated pretty much the same.
Is it morally nice? No. It could be better. It can practicly always be.
But sadly, containment and such is necessary, and basic human behavior will give rise to strife between oversight and the one who is watched. This is unavoidable.

and yes..the lands are safer thanks to mages being locked up.



[quote]
[QUOTE] Lotion Soronnar wrote...
What hatefull propaganda?

Tevinter imperium being a ****ty place with rampart slavery and attrocities is no propaganda.
"Magic is ment to serve man, not rule over him" is not hatefull propaganda. [/quote]

Condemning all mages for the actions of one empire, Lotion. Just listen to Greagoir - he never blames the Tevinters for the Blights, he blames mages in general.[/quote]

I fail to see your point...Magisters were mages. All mages are dangerous. I don'trecall any chantry verse saiyng "hate the mages".
And Gergoir is hardly representative of the whoel Chantry...




[QUOTE]
How is being thrown into prison because of who you are comparable to living under a form of government, again?[/quote]

Death or servitude..Isn't that what slavery is all about, in essence?



[quote]
[QUOTE] Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You fail to provide why it is false. While I proved why it is not. And frankly I don't care if you think it's false, you're wrong.

Now... ANSWER...THE...FRIGGIN...QUESTION. Stop stalling and evading it. [/QUOTE]

Mages aren't diseased, so it's not an accurate analogy. There's no question to answer. If you were discussing the Architect's Disciples, the Messenger, or the Architect (because all of them can infect normal people with darkspawn disease) than you'd have a point, but mages aren't diseased. Ergo, it's not a proper analogy. Please, refrain from using it.[/quote]

There is a question and you keep evading it again and again. I knew it. Coward.

And as I said before, it is a proper analogy. I dont' care if you don't think so. The question I'm asking is not even tied to the analogydirectly  in the first palce and be answered separately. So I'll repeat it one final time:


Situation: Viral epidemic breaks out in the town next to you. Military establishes a quarantene of the town. People are trying to break out..military uses force to contain them. Are the actions of the military justified?



[quote]
[QUOTE] Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Focus? Quite simply. Annuling the tower is a not a faliue for hte templars. Hence, the Broken Circle is not a faliure. [/quote]

Yet it's only able to happen because of the Grey Warden, not the templars. If the Warden never showed up, then it's possible Uldred would have defeated Greagoir and his relatively small contingent of templars, especially since there was no word back or reinforcements from Denerim.[/quote]

But it doesn'thappen. you don't know. Ergo it cannot be considered a faliure. fuirthermore the reinforcments DO come (if oyu side with Cullen), thus they would have come anyway.

In other words, your argument is void and invalid. A faliure that does not happen (but might happen.hypotheticly) cannot be considered a faliure



[quote]
[QUOTE] Lotion Soronnar wrote...
No, because you said the templars failed because they didn't immediately
kill all of hte abominiiotns, but rahter "hid behind the gates". [/quote]
In other words, I never discussed battle tactics, but I did point out that the templars were overwhelmed and couldn't deal with the abominations, so how does your attack of me and claiming I don't understand battle tactics work again?[/quote]

your'e defelcting the issue. Which is clearly explained in my quote.






[QUOTE]
I never said Zathrian was immune to possession - I pointed out that, counter to your claim that mages will inevitably become abominations, Zathrian lived for centuries as a Dalish mage and didn't become one, so it isn't inevitable.[/quote]

I never said it was inevitable. I said that EVERY mage is in constant danger of becoming an abomination 24/7.





[QUOTE]

As for the reinforcements, they're clearly there by the time the armies match to Denerim if the Warden sided with Cullen, but how many days, weeks, or months is that from when the Circle was dealing with Uldred and the abominations? Uldred's army was almost complete and we only see a contingent of templars at the end, after the civil war has been resolved, so there's no evidence that reinforcements are coming before or anywhere close to when Uldred would've completed his army and marched against the templar force.[/quote]

And there's no evidence that they wouldn't have come in time and killed of Uldred, if the Warden never got involved. As I said..NO EVIDENCE.
Specualtions and "might" is NOT evidence. either you got evidence or you don't. And you don't.



[quote]
[QUOTE] Lotion Soronnar wrote...
s*** happens. Your point? That without the templars mages will never get killed? Becasue we already know that isn't true. [/quote]

I pointed out that under the current system, people are killed by templars on the suspicion of being a mage, including people who aren't mages - like the Magnificent D'Sims.[/quote]

You mentioning him in EVERY SINGLE POST of yours is ....madening. 
Mistaks happen in every system. There are trigger-happy fooIs in every system. I fail to see your point.



[quote]
[QUOTE] Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I'm a realist. Nothing more, nothing less. [/quote]

But despite your claim otherwise, you've consistently sided with the Chantry and pro-Chantry characters (Wynne in Winnie the Poo thread) for several months. I have no issue with it, but I see no reason why you claim otherwise.[/quote]

As I said before, I'm a realist. I side with the side that has better arguments and a better grasp on the reality of thedas.
You just happen to pick the wrong side.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Even if the Divine send her Templars she is still dependant on the Templar's doing what she wants them to. There is so many places down the chain from aperson in power where it can go wrong, and nullify the threat. From a mage, there is no chain. The mage himself is the threat.

A single Ash Warrior Beserker can decimate an entire village as well unless it so happens to have a properly trained warrior in defense (which is vanishingly rare).    The point is that power comes in many flavors and political power is power.  So is martial power.  So is magical power.

If you want to start segregating people for what they MIGHT do with that power, you wouldn't have a lot of people that were out of prison.....

-Polaris

[ObserverStatus]

Personally I do not think that Templars are necessary for the purposes of guarding the Mages from Abominations and Demons. In my experience, Spirit Mages can perform these roles more effectively.

[LobselVith8]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

Ah, the everlasting Warrior vs. Mage legendary dispute.
I prefer to just cook 'em in their plate armor with fire and lightning instead of reasoning, but Polaris makes a decent job, netherless.

True, very true.

Beerfish wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Mages should self-regulate themselves and the circle is a needed institution to make sure new mages are able to control their power. As soon as their able to harness this power they should be free to do whatever they are willing to do.

The chantry and Templar's however should be removed from this entire structure as their ignorance does more harm then good.

This worked well keeping Ulred under control didn't it?  Irving and Wynne and such did a great job of keeping tabs on one of their own.

You're forgetting about Knight-Commander Greagoir. And considering that Uldred and the mages were fighting for their freedom, how is oppressing them under the Chantry system going to change that? The fact that some people in this thread (and apparently in the other thread with Merill) see the Chantry system as a form of enslavement of the mages doesn't indicate that they're going to stop fighting for their freedom anytime soon.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ferelden is the only nation with only one Cirlce. Other nations have multiple Circles, apparently. And it doesn't say anywhere that Dalish apprentices disappear, it is all based on the observation that there aren't any more than 2 Magic users in Zathrien's clan, even though there was mention of multiple apprentices. And Aneirin is NOT part of any clan. He is accepted by the clan, yes. But he is not part of it.

There's more than two mages there; if the Warden and the Lady go to the camp, two other mages attack the Warden along with Zathrian and Lanaya. There's also Aenirin, who has Dalish markings and never specifically says he's not part of the camp.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mention that there are many mages to a kingdom in Thedas - that's a good point. So why not utilize their magic against the darkspawn in the Deep Roads to wittle away their numbers and hopefully prevent future Blights? Why keep mages imprisoned where they can do nothing to destroy the darkspawn that always threaten the surface and constantly threaten the dwarves?

Mages ARE used agaisnt the darkspawn. I don't know what you're talking about.

There have been Grey Wardens who have used blood magic against the darkspawn, so that clearly isn't true. Duncan certainly saw no issue with it, especially since he mentions it to counter the notion that "blood magic is evil."

And I should care about what Duncan thinks because...?

Maybe the better question to answer would be, given how mages are continually resisting the Chantry's treatment of them (which has been considered everything from imprisonment to enslavement - and I can imagine that there are mages who feel the same way) and that it's likely going to lead to a war in DA2, what good has it ultimately done but instigated a war between templars and mages?

700 years of more secure cointryside? Far less death overall?

And when the mage-chatry war is over and hte mages and beaten into submission again, more years of peace?

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Even if the Divine send her Templars she is still dependant on the Templar's doing what she wants them to. There is so many places down the chain from aperson in power where it can go wrong, and nullify the threat. From a mage, there is no chain. The mage himself is the threat.

A single Ash Warrior Beserker can decimate an entire village as well unless it so happens to have a properly trained warrior in defense (which is vanishingly rare).    The point is that power comes in many flavors and political power is power.  So is martial power.  So is magical power.

If you want to start segregating people for what they MIGHT do with that power, you wouldn't have a lot of people that were out of prison.....

-Polaris

Any kind of militia will be enough to kill a single elite warrior, no matter how battle hardened he is. A single trained and battle hardened mage can eradicate a village even if they got a militia, especially if he uses blood magic and turn the village on itself.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

Ah, the everlasting Warrior vs. Mage legendary dispute.
I prefer to just cook 'em in their plate armor with fire and lightning instead of reasoning, but Polaris makes a decent job, netherless.

True, very true.

Beerfish wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Mages should self-regulate themselves and the circle is a needed institution to make sure new mages are able to control their power. As soon as their able to harness this power they should be free to do whatever they are willing to do.

The chantry and Templar's however should be removed from this entire structure as their ignorance does more harm then good.

This worked well keeping Ulred under control didn't it?  Irving and Wynne and such did a great job of keeping tabs on one of their own.

You're forgetting about Knight-Commander Greagoir. And considering that Uldred and the mages were fighting for their freedom, how is oppressing them under the Chantry system going to change that? The fact that some people in this thread (and apparently in the other thread with Merill) see the Chantry system as a form of enslavement of the mages doesn't indicate that they're going to stop fighting for their freedom anytime soon.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ferelden is the only nation with only one Cirlce. Other nations have multiple Circles, apparently. And it doesn't say anywhere that Dalish apprentices disappear, it is all based on the observation that there aren't any more than 2 Magic users in Zathrien's clan, even though there was mention of multiple apprentices. And Aneirin is NOT part of any clan. He is accepted by the clan, yes. But he is not part of it.

There's more than two mages there; if the Warden and the Lady go to the camp, two other mages attack the Warden along with Zathrian and Lanaya. There's also Aenirin, who has Dalish markings and never specifically says he's not part of the camp.

Aneirin says he doesn't consider himself as part of the Dalish. Kind of a wave with a pole isn't it? And when I attack the Dalish I only ever encounter Zathrian and Lanaya. I won't rule out the possiblity that it's because the Werewolves simply get to the other mages first, but I still havn't seen them.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 21 janvier 2011 - 07:17 .

[atheelogos]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

If you're not prepared to do the time, don't do the crime.

No one with mind controling powers can ever be trusted. That is logical enough.

I beg to differ, though I don't have the time to do so now. lol Gotta go to class.

Differ how? What?

The issue is simple.
How do you know the trust you have for that person with mind-controling powers is real trust, and not his mind-control working on you?
How do you know he doesn't do you from behind every night and simply makes you forget it?
How do you know he's not using mind control on your right now, or has been using it subtely for years?
How do you evne know what's youre seeing is real, with him around?

Mind control..unltimate power..ultimte threat.

Okay I'm back from class where did we leave off? Oh yes lol..... I think your giving mind control too much credit. Its dangerous yes, but small time compared to what we have with all of our weapons of mass destruction. And we're still here.

[IanPolaris]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LOl..

no my friends...No.

You see, people can argue anything, no matter how wrong or stupid it is. People argue the subject of morality, right and wrong..some belive Elvis is still alive or that moon is made of cheese. Hardly debate-worthy.

What the Chantry does is logical. Practical. Efficient. If mages existed in the real world, I'm willing to bet they would be treated pretty much the same.
Is it morally nice? No. It could be better. It can practicly always be.
But sadly, containment and such is necessary, and basic human behavior will give rise to strife between oversight and the one who is watched. This is unavoidable.
[/quote]

ORLY?  Then why did mutliple and different societies INCLUDING the Andrastian ones get along just fine without such circles for so long?  You only use confinement becuase it does increase civil strife if no other reasonable solution exists, but we know for an empirical fact that other solutions (better solutions) do exist or at least can be found, but the Chantry never bothers to look.  I have also exploded the MYTH that the chantry set this system up to to protect anyone.  You are engaging in an erroneous ex-post facto justification of something that was solely done to increase the chantry's power.  I don't say that.  The Chantry's own history says that.

[quote]
and yes..the lands are safer thanks to mages being locked up.
[/quote]

Evidence would be helpful.

[quote]
[quote]
[QUOTE] Lotion Soronnar wrote...
What hatefull propaganda?

Tevinter imperium being a ****ty place with rampart slavery and attrocities is no propaganda.
"Magic is ment to serve man, not rule over him" is not hatefull propaganda. [/quote]

Condemning all mages for the actions of one empire, Lotion. Just listen to Greagoir - he never blames the Tevinters for the Blights, he blames mages in general.[/quote]

I fail to see your point...Magisters were mages. All mages are dangerous. I don'trecall any chantry verse saiyng "hate the mages".
And Gergoir is hardly representative of the whoel Chantry...
[/quote]

No.  Gregoire is a radical liberal when it comes to Templars which means that if even Gregoire blames all mages for the blights, then it's far worse elsewhere.  Even the Reverent Mother in Redcliff admits Chantry culpability in the ire and hatred against mages when she promises you (when you help the villiage) that she won't raise a mob against you (gee how nice).  Then there is the witch...sorry Reverand Mother in Lothering and the Reverent Mother (or possibly Grand Cleric...high ranking anyhow) Chnatry Priestess in Ostagar.

Duncan himself says that Chantry hates magic and tolerates (barely) only because they feel they have to.

[quote]
[QUOTE]
How is being thrown into prison because of who you are comparable to living under a form of government, again?[/quote]

Death or servitude..Isn't that what slavery is all about, in essence?
[/quote]

You can change your goverment (i.e. move).  You can't stop being a mage.

[quote]
[quote]
[QUOTE] Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You fail to provide why it is false. While I proved why it is not. And frankly I don't care if you think it's false, you're wrong.

Now... ANSWER...THE...FRIGGIN...QUESTION. Stop stalling and evading it. [/QUOTE]

Mages aren't diseased, so it's not an accurate analogy. There's no question to answer. If you were discussing the Architect's Disciples, the Messenger, or the Architect (because all of them can infect normal people with darkspawn disease) than you'd have a point, but mages aren't diseased. Ergo, it's not a proper analogy. Please, refrain from using it.[/quote]

There is a question and you keep evading it again and again. I knew it. Coward.

And as I said before, it is a proper analogy. I dont' care if you don't think so. The question I'm asking is not even tied to the analogydirectly  in the first palce and be answered separately. So I'll repeat it one final time:


Situation: Viral epidemic breaks out in the town next to you. Military establishes a quarantene of the town. People are trying to break out..military uses force to contain them. Are the actions of the military justified?
[/quote]

If that epidemic could not be spread, then NO quarantine would not be justified.  Leprously comes immediately to mind.  Leper colonies are now considered unwarrented and unjust because the disease simply can't be spread by casual contact (it takes repeated exposure over years).  The same applies to AIDS which while absolutely deadly can only be spread by very specific (and controllable) ways.

So no, your analogy completely fails.

[quote]
[quote]
[QUOTE] Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Focus? Quite simply. Annuling the tower is a not a faliue for hte templars. Hence, the Broken Circle is not a faliure. [/quote]

Yet it's only able to happen because of the Grey Warden, not the templars. If the Warden never showed up, then it's possible Uldred would have defeated Greagoir and his relatively small contingent of templars, especially since there was no word back or reinforcements from Denerim.[/quote]

But it doesn'thappen. you don't know. Ergo it cannot be considered a faliure. fuirthermore the reinforcments DO come (if oyu side with Cullen), thus they would have come anyway.

In other words, your argument is void and invalid. A faliure that does not happen (but might happen.hypotheticly) cannot be considered a faliure
[/quote]

We do know because Irving at the top of the tower tells you that Gregoire has run out of time.  Also remember that Uldred had an agreement with Loghain, and so it's perfectly reasonable for Loghain to backstop and delay the Grandcleric from sending any templars until he gets word from Uldred (esp given that Loghain had promised to free the circle).  I am not saying that IS what happened in Denerim, but it seems likely. In any event, reinforcements if any we now know from canon would not have come in time if at all.

[quote]
[quote]
[QUOTE] Lotion Soronnar wrote...
No, because you said the templars failed because they didn't immediately
kill all of hte abominiiotns, but rahter "hid behind the gates". [/quote]
In other words, I never discussed battle tactics, but I did point out that the templars were overwhelmed and couldn't deal with the abominations, so how does your attack of me and claiming I don't understand battle tactics work again?[/quote]

your'e defelcting the issue. Which is clearly explained in my quote.
[/quote]

You are ignoring the fact that the Templars couldn't even do their own job, and they couldn't because fo the very environment they fostered help motivate and create so many bloodmages.

[quote]
[QUOTE]
I never said Zathrian was immune to possession - I pointed out that, counter to your claim that mages will inevitably become abominations, Zathrian lived for centuries as a Dalish mage and didn't become one, so it isn't inevitable.[/quote]

I never said it was inevitable. I said that EVERY mage is in constant danger of becoming an abomination 24/7.
[/quote]

Avernus also lived in a tower where the veil had been sundered for three hundred years and he never became an abomination either.  Both he and Zathrien in very dangerous locations practiced blood magic.  No abomination over hundreds of years.....perhaps the Chantry could learn something from this.

Nah.....never. (sarcastic)

[quote]
[QUOTE]

As for the reinforcements, they're clearly there by the time the armies match to Denerim if the Warden sided with Cullen, but how many days, weeks, or months is that from when the Circle was dealing with Uldred and the abominations? Uldred's army was almost complete and we only see a contingent of templars at the end, after the civil war has been resolved, so there's no evidence that reinforcements are coming before or anywhere close to when Uldred would've completed his army and marched against the templar force.[/quote]

And there's no evidence that they wouldn't have come in time and killed of Uldred, if the Warden never got involved. As I said..NO EVIDENCE.
Specualtions and "might" is NOT evidence. either you got evidence or you don't. And you don't.
[/quote]

We know from in-game lore that Gregoire had run out of time, so in effect the reinforcements don't come.  What we see later is what happens if the templars agree and after the civil war has been resolved and thus a much different situation.

[quote]
[quote]
[QUOTE] Lotion Soronnar wrote...
s*** happens. Your point? That without the templars mages will never get killed? Becasue we already know that isn't true. [/quote]

I pointed out that under the current system, people are killed by templars on the suspicion of being a mage, including people who aren't mages - like the Magnificent D'Sims.[/quote]

You mentioning him in EVERY SINGLE POST of yours is ....madening. 
Mistaks happen in every system. There are trigger-happy fooIs in every system. I fail to see your point.
[/quote]

Yes, and in most sane systems people are held acccountable for those mistakes and procedures are changed to insure they don't happen again.  I see none of that with either the Templars or the Chantry as a whole.

[quote]
[quote]
[QUOTE] Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I'm a realist. Nothing more, nothing less. [/quote]

But despite your claim otherwise, you've consistently sided with the Chantry and pro-Chantry characters (Wynne in Winnie the Poo thread) for several months. I have no issue with it, but I see no reason why you claim otherwise.[/quote]

As I said before, I'm a realist. I side with the side that has better arguments and a better grasp on the reality of thedas.
You just happen to pick the wrong side.
[/quote]

No, you are a chantry apologist.  I have pointed out REAL evidence that goes against what you believe but you persist.  That's fine, but don't call yourself a realist.

-Polaris

[atheelogos]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mention that there are many mages to a kingdom in Thedas - that's a good point. So why not utilize their magic against the darkspawn in the Deep Roads to wittle away their numbers and hopefully prevent future Blights? Why keep mages imprisoned where they can do nothing to destroy the darkspawn that always threaten the surface and constantly threaten the dwarves?

Mages ARE used agaisnt the darkspawn. I don't know what you're talking about.

There have been Grey Wardens who have used blood magic against the darkspawn, so that clearly isn't true. Duncan certainly saw no issue with it, especially since he mentions it to counter the notion that "blood magic is evil."

And I should care about what Duncan thinks because...?

Maybe the better question to answer would be, given how mages are continually resisting the Chantry's treatment of them (which has been considered everything from imprisonment to enslavement - and I can imagine that there are mages who feel the same way) and that it's likely going to lead to a war in DA2, what good has it ultimately done but instigated a war between templars and mages?

700 years of more secure cointryside? Far less death overall?

And when the mage-chatry war is over and hte mages and beaten into submission again, more years of peace?

Mages beaten into submission? Why the assume they will lose?

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

You mention that there are many mages to a kingdom in Thedas - that's a good point. So why not utilize their magic against the darkspawn in the Deep Roads to wittle away their numbers and hopefully prevent future Blights? Why keep mages imprisoned where they can do nothing to destroy the darkspawn that always threaten the surface and constantly threaten the dwarves?[/quote]

Mages ARE used agaisnt the darkspawn. I don't know what you're talking about. [/quote]

That must explain why Greagoir only permitted seven mages to Ostagar. Had more been permitted, the Fifth Blight might have been averted. If more were typically permitted before it got so bad to be a Blight, then maybe there would not be any Blights to contend with.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

There have been Grey Wardens who have used blood magic against the darkspawn, so that clearly isn't true. Duncan certainly saw no issue with it, especially since he mentions it to counter the notion that "blood magic is evil."[/quote]

And I should care about what Duncan thinks because...? [/quote]

He knows more about the darkspawn than you given his experience as a Grey Warden and the Warden-Commander of Ferelden.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Maybe the better question to answer would be, given how mages are continually resisting the Chantry's treatment of them (which has been considered everything from imprisonment to enslavement - and I can imagine that there are mages who feel the same way) and that it's likely going to lead to a war in DA2, what good has it ultimately done but instigated a war between templars and mages?[/quote]

700 years of more secure cointryside? Far less death overall?

And when the mage-chatry war is over and hte mages and beaten into submission again, more years of peace? [/quote]

I think the Dalish would disagree about your poetic musings of how safe the Chantry have made Thedas. And given how mages could have made all the difference at Ostagar, Greagoir's decision to only permit seven mages to go to Ostagar may have played a role in the failure to beat them back. Maybe this is the same kind of behavior that other templars have displayed in the face of the Blights - which means that the templars and the Chantry are responsible because they were too focused on imprisoning mages than keeping Thedas safe from the darkspawn.

Beaten into submission? You make it pretty clear what sort of organization the Chantry really is - I'm sure Strangelove would be proud. Better to die on your feet than live on your knees, Lotion.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Actually, Lotion, IanPolaris already addressed the DG quotes a few pages back. You didn't like it. So why are you pretending that Ian never addressed the quotes? [/quote]

You can stick to what ian sez as holy scruptuire as far as I'm concerned..but Ian is wrong as so are you.
Davids point was clear (given that the question asked was specifcly about how dangerous mages are). [/quote]

Ian doesn't resort to calling me stupid for a difference of opinion, I actually get a researched and well-written response, so between you and Ian, I'm going to have to support the one who makes use of the codex, while you basically use what you infer as your own personal lore.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Now you try some silly logic that he was actualyl talking about kingdoms not being formed and mighty, and that's why the countryside was full of rampaging abominations, but then you're painting DG as an idiot who can't stick to the topic. Which was danger of mages. So why would he suddnly switch topic and start talking about something else?
No, to anyone who read the full post it's quite clear what DG was talking about. [/quote]

Full of rampaging abominations? If it was full of them, doesn't that mean that people would have stopped them, even without templars and the Chantry? Perhaps those people were mages? And, therefore, that means that templars are not alone in the capacity to safeguard against abominations, which is all the more clear if the Warden doing Knight-Commander Greagoir's job in the Circle Tower is from the Circle of Magi.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The only two who refused to accept that are you and Ian..Who never bothered to read that whole post I might add.
Due to the lack of context, your analysis is worth nothing. [/quote]

Because we disagree with you? Because I know that Ian disagreed, and even provided codex entries and quotes to prove you wrong.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Let him use a lightning bolt while the potential rapist is holding an elven woman? I think there would be some issues with that, Lotion.[/quote]

Freeze? Nightmare? Crushing prison?

Like I said, there's no lack of tools. [/quote]

Except you said to use lightning. I pointed out how bad that would turn out. Maybe you're also forgetting about how Duncan said mages in the Grey Wardens have had to resort to blood magic to combat the darkspawn, the greatest threat posed to all life in Thedas.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
17 Circles anulled is an entire Circle of men, women, and children being brutally murdered with a sword of mercy every time - hardly nothing.

How many of those Anulments were justified? Was there a valid reason for the Rites in every case, or were we dealing with Knight-Commanders as paranoid as a Cullen who can rule the Ferelden Circle in fear?

You can side on the unknown and say that villages were saved by murdering mages, but how many villages could those mages have saved if they weren't being villified by the Andrastian Chantry?[/quote]

*yawn*  .. and how many mages destroy entire villages?
Yes, I can safely say that the circle system is better than no circle system

I can safely say that the number of dead mages is insignificant compared to the number of villagers that would have died, had those same mages been running arounf free for 700 years. [/quote]

In other words, you don't know if any of the Circles that were anulled were justified or necessary? Consider how many villages and cities would have been saved if, instead of imprisoning mages, they were utilized to combat the darkspawn in the Deep Roads. Maybe there never would have been four more Blights; that would have saved maybe hundreds, thousands, possibly millions. Instead, they're imprisoned.

[EmperorSahlertz]

atheelogos wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

If you're not prepared to do the time, don't do the crime.

No one with mind controling powers can ever be trusted. That is logical enough.

I beg to differ, though I don't have the time to do so now. lol Gotta go to class.

Differ how? What?

The issue is simple.
How do you know the trust you have for that person with mind-controling powers is real trust, and not his mind-control working on you?
How do you know he doesn't do you from behind every night and simply makes you forget it?
How do you know he's not using mind control on your right now, or has been using it subtely for years?
How do you evne know what's youre seeing is real, with him around?

Mind control..unltimate power..ultimte threat.

Okay I'm back from class where did we leave off? Oh yes lol..... I think your giving mind control too much credit. Its dangerous yes, but small time compared to what we have with all of our weapons of mass destruction. And we're still here.

And what if the man with the key to the WMDs get mind controlled?

[Beerfish]

Beerfish wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Mages
should self-regulate themselves and the circle is a needed institution
to make sure new mages are able to control their power. As soon as their
able to harness this power they should be free to do whatever they are
willing to do.

The chantry and Templar's however should be removed from this entire structure as their ignorance does more harm then good.

This
worked well keeping Ulred under control didn't it?  Irving and Wynne
and such did a great job of keeping tabs on one of their own.

You're
forgetting about Knight-Commander Greagoir. And considering that Uldred
and the mages were fighting for their freedom, how is oppressing them
under the Chantry system going to change that? The fact that some people
in this thread (and apparently in the other thread with Merill) see the
Chantry system as a form of enslavement of the mages doesn't indicate
that they're going to stop fighting for their freedom anytime soon.

As has been normal when you respond to a point, what you counter with has very little to do with what the point was.  It was Irvings responsibility as the 1st enchanter of the mages circle to ensure his mages behaved.  He failed utterly and Ulreds motives for doing something bad is secondary because as we saw elsehwere (Avernus in Wardens Keep, Connor in redcliffe.) Mages do bad things for any number of reasons whether they be trying to take over the circle, being desperate to win a conflict or trying to help dear old dad.

Gregoirs big sin in the circle tower incident?  Not being vigilant enough apparently. 

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Aneirin says he doesn't consider himself as part of the Dalish. Kind of a wave with a pole isn't it? And when I attack the Dalish I only ever encounter Zathrian and Lanaya. I won't rule out the possiblity that it's because the Werewolves simply get to the other mages first, but I still havn't seen them.

The Dalish feel otherwise.  If not, then Anerine would not be wearing the facial tattoes that mark him as an honored adult within the clain (read the Codex Entries on Dalish face painting).  For the purposes of this discussion, it's what the Dalish think that matters since clearly they have no problems welcoming a "horrible and dangerous mage that hasn't been harrowed" and no problems living beside one...even in a dangerous place like the Brecilian forest where the Veil is thin.

That brings up another point.  It's been what?  30 or 40 years since Anerin esceped from the tower and has lived in the Brecilian forest where the veil is thin most of that time.  He wasn't even harrowed.  Abomination bait?  The Chantry would have you think so, but no....not even close.

All this tells me that outside the regessive circle system (and it is regressive) that feeds on negative emotions (which demons love), the rate of abominations seems to be rather low and you have to willingly sell your soul to a demon (let it in as Mouse would say) to become one (that or force a combat in the fade in lose and be overwhelmed which seems to have what happened with Uldred).

Mages that live in dangerous places for decades and centuries  even where the Veil is thinnest don't seem to become abominations at anything like the rate the Chantry would suggest.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And what if the man with the key to the WMDs get mind controlled?

Make sure the person mind-controlling him doesn't want to use it.  That means having your own WMDs with your own ability to mind-control.

Blood magic doesn't have to mean mind-control, and mind-control is a fact.  It CAN be used beneficially (like any other powerful thing).

What you can't do is pretend it doesn't exist because that makes you vunerable to those that should have it the least.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

I'm sorry, but where are you getting that Greagoir is a Radical Liberal? If aynthing he seems more like an Orthodox Andrastian. The epilogue card stating that Cullen's rule of the circle was even more restricting than Greagoir's seem to reinforce this.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And what if the man with the key to the WMDs get mind controlled?

Make sure the person mind-controlling him doesn't want to use it.  That means having your own WMDs with your own ability to mind-control.

Blood magic doesn't have to mean mind-control, and mind-control is a fact.  It CAN be used beneficially (like any other powerful thing).

What you can't do is pretend it doesn't exist because that makes you vunerable to those that should have it the least.

-Polaris

And if the mind-controller is a madman who jsut wants to see the world burn? Then we are just **** out of luck? Nah, the easy way of avoiding this is to eradicate every single man, woman and child who ever even tries to learn to mind-control.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 21 janvier 2011 - 07:34 .

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And if the mind-controller is a madman who jsut wants to see the world burn? Then we are just **** out of luck? Nah, the easy way of avoiding this is to eradicate every single man, woman and child who ever even tries to learn
to mind-control.

This is not a realistic option.  The Chantry (even the Imperial Chantry) has been trying to ban mind control magic for over 900 years.  Still hasn't work.

Let's deal with reality shall we?  Mind control magic exists.  It's dangerous and powerful.  That being so, it's better to research it and come up with ways to try to defend against it.  The BLOOD MAGE Adralla certainly thought so.

This is one very important reason why the prohibition on bloodmagic is terminally stupid.  It leaves you vunerable to those that can learn bloodmagic anyway (and you will never get rid of it since demons will cheerfully teach it) and so banning it means that only the worst and vilest of people have it leaving you virtually defenseless against it.  Leaving the most powerful form of magic solely in the hands of criminal mages (and one that can mind control to boot) is a stupid, stupid, thing to do.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Yet the great wielders of magic - the elves - are still alive after all these centuries without the Chantry and their templars, and the History of the Circle codex reveals that there was no urgency to isolate mages from the general populace for reasons of blood magic or abominations.[/quote]

It takes a LOT to completey exterminate a race or a country. Why do you keep assuming that because a kingdom (or a race) was not completely and uttery destroyed, that abominatiosn are not a real threat? [/quote]

Yeah, all we have to do is ask the Chantry about their Exalted March on the Dales to understand that.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Did floods completey destroy the human race? Earthquakes? Torandos? Forest fires? No?
How much damage and deaths have they caused over the years?
So tell me, did the early humans try and stop floods and torandos? no. Why not? Not because it wasn't a danger or because it wasn't an issue, but because they were too busy surviving (and not knowing how to protect themselves).

That the mages weren't isolated immidiately proves NOTHING. Except of course, that it took them quite a while to figure out a good solution to the problem. [/quote]

I'm surprised it proves nothing, considering that Andraste and Shartan (with their former slave armies under their banner) fought against the slave-masters of the Tevinter Imperium to gain freedom for their people. Considering how even the former slaves under the rule of corrupt mages didn't see a reason to segregate mages into prisons simply for being born mages, and the Circles were never created to protect people from mages, then why should I or any person here believe that it's necessary to imprison mages?

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I have a counter question to propose: if mages were utilized to combat the darkspawn in the Deep Roads instead of being imprisoned, would we even be battling darkspawns and Archdemons with the Blights?[/quote]

To answer that.

Yes. Mages can't defeat the blight by themsleves. Mages wouldn't want to go into the Deep Roads anyway. [/quote]

Not by themselves; as part of the solution. If the Chantry didn't imprison mages, but worked with them to fight against the darkspawn (along with the dwarven armies) then there's a good chance we wouldn't even need Grey Wardens or have to deal with the Blights. Instead, all the Chantry does is imprison mages, despite how effective their magic is in defeating darkspawn.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Jowan clearly disagreed.[/quote]

Jowan is a whiny ******. And a blood mage. Of course he would disagree. [/quote]

He was going to be given a lobotomy. That would make anyone upset.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I have an even better analogy...you know...the one with the military holding a quarantene..You know that one example, that one question you constantly avoid answering? [/quote]

Because it's a bad analogy that ignores how mages don't have an infectious disease and how the Chantry hates mages and spreads propaganda against them?

[quote]Ziggeh wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
There's certainly more darkspawn now. Why haven't the nations been using mages to fight them in the Deep Roads to try to prevent the Blights? [/quote]
Same reasons they aren't just down there generally. Makes a lot of sense in the long term, hard to sell in the short. It complicates the issue, doesn't change it. [/quote]

In other words, instead of doing something about the darkspawn, the Chantry does nothing. Stopping the darkspawn and future Archdemons from coming into the world should be the prime focus of all races across Thedas. The Chantry has the means to send armies to deal with the threat, but does nothing. Instead of being imprisoned, why aren't they utilizing mages to help beat back the darkspawn in the Deep Roads before they became an issue topside? Given how effective mages have been against the Blights and the Qunari, I doubt I'm the first to consider this.

[quote]Ziggeh wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
given how mages are continually resisting the Chantry's treatment of them (which has been considered everything from imprisonment to enslavement - and I can imagine that there are mages who feel the same way) and that it's likely going to lead to a war in DA2, what good has it ultimately done but instigated a war between templars and mages?[/quote]
The "good", such as it is, is in the containment, the prevention of potential disasters, but you knew that already. Yes, it leads to other problems, both moral and physical. We can't judge the situation on any one aspect in isolation. The purpose of the fiction is complexity, reductionism doesn't serve it well.[/quote]

It also causes disasters as well, but you certainly knew that. The cases of abominations we read about in the codex entries tend to be because mages were trying to survive or rebelling against the templars - so it seems the system is pushing mages to that breaking point in their attempts to be free. I don't see how it's an effective system when that's the result of imprisoning mages and denying them any real say over their lives.

[quote]Ziggeh wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

It matters if there's a codex that seems to be "heresay" (based on how it's written) where they're claiming that the Circles were created because of abominations, when that isn't the case.[/quote]

Doesn't really speak to my question, but still: Personally I'd argue the Chantry isn't a single entity with a sole purpose or intent. I would also say that both statements are true. It exists to protect people, and in doing so increases the Chantries influence. There isn't a contradiction there. If the statement is "It's the only reason it exists", then yes, very much a lie. [/quote]

They didn't do too well protecting the Dalish, so I don't think "protecting people" really fits into their overall goal. If we consider their codex and their claim, along with the Chantry's lack of effort into doing something about the darkspawn unless it becomes a Blight that directly impacts them, I don't see them seriously protecting anyone but their own interests. Even the Reverand Mother at Redcliffe admits that she's surprised that someone of elven blood would help them - which indicates to me that, if the situations were reversed, the elves wouldn't be getting any help from the humans.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 21 janvier 2011 - 07:44 .