1869 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Ziggeh wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
You consider a drug-addicted religious fanatic trustworthy? 

I consider them trusted. In fact, the Chantry goes so far as to ensure they are loyal with dependance.

Loyal does not equate to trustworthy.  Otherwise we should dope up all our policement with heroin.

-Polaris

[atheelogos]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

If you're not prepared to do the time, don't do the crime.

No one with mind controling powers can ever be trusted. That is logical enough.

I beg to differ, though I don't have the time to do so now. lol Gotta go to class.

Differ how? What?

The issue is simple.
How do you know the trust you have for that person with mind-controling powers is real trust, and not his mind-control working on you?
How do you know he doesn't do you from behind every night and simply makes you forget it?
How do you know he's not using mind control on your right now, or has been using it subtely for years?
How do you evne know what's youre seeing is real, with him around?

Mind control..unltimate power..ultimte threat.

Okay I'm back from class where did we leave off? Oh yes lol..... I think your giving mind control too much credit. Its dangerous yes, but small time compared to what we have with all of our weapons of mass destruction. And we're still here.

You do not fully realise the power of mind control..or haven't relly though about it.
Go ahead..give it a bit of though. Immagine you can take control of anyones mind..make him your puppet. remove or add memories. Bend him to your will. Now, think of everything you could do with that kind of power....
You can get ANY woman (evne those that find you repulsive and would rather die then be with you)...money..power.

Someone with mind control can trun your against your own family. Force you to slaughter them. Compel kings to his will and have them wage war. If he's pwerfull and smart enough, he can rule nations (covertly of course).

No power is more intoxicating and tempting to use...none.

I'm not discounting the dangers. I'm saying just because certain abilities, that can be abused, exist doesn't mean that most people will use them in that way. I come down on the side that says most people are good, or at least try to be good. From my point of view I say why would a majority of mages use such a power if they aren't evil? Why use it without a motive? Even the female mage in the tower said getting control of blood magic wasn't the point. The blood magic was only ever a means to an end. If they reach that end, which would be added freedoms, then one could say they don't really have a motive to use the darker aspects of blood magic on people.

But thats the difference isn't it? I say why would they? You say "Why wouldn't they?" Again Our starting assumptions are different which is why we can't agree on this, but its fun talking about anway right?

Oh and they're are other ways of controling people and they're minds, and most of those methods don't require magic. Hell most of those methods exist in our world and are more painful than the magical means the mages use.

I guess I should ask this. Would you call for the execution of people who know how to control other people in reality?

But maybe the above example is going to far. If that is the case allow me to say this. Yes mind control is very dangerous, but I don't see the logic in locking up an enitre ethnic group because of what a few of them might do.

Modifié par atheelogos, 21 janvier 2011 - 09:52 .

[DKJaigen]

The fact of the matter is that in the here
and now there have been a number of bad mage incidents. 

And no doubt the population whined like mewling sheep for the mages to safe them as soon a blight occurred. Or when the quanari invaded(that can however be attributed to self defense but still)

Rail against
the present system all you want but until a credible alternative is
presented

Let the mages rule themselves. why should they put their trust in a bunch of ignorant jackasses who cant really comprehend what a mage can or cannot do


I as a citizen of Fereldan would rather the mages be as they
are than to let them go and do whatever they wanted.

Do you? You sitting on a ticking timebomb. Treat people this badly and they will revolt after a while. And people that can lay waste to entire armies is especially a bad idea. my advice get along and quickly before the **** hits the fan.

[IanPolaris]

Ziggeh wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
You consider a drug-addicted religious fanatic trustworthy? 

I consider them trusted. In fact, the Chantry goes so far as to ensure they are loyal with dependance.

I would not.  In fact if you read the Codex entry on Templars, they discourage morality in Templars looking instead for blind obediance.  Not good material if you want trustworthy guardians of magic.

Again no one is saying that magic and mages shouldn't be regulated, but no one has come close to saying that the circle system is needed or justified to do this (and I've shown compelling evidence to the contrary the most important of which that not even the chantry thought it was needed...the circles were  not established to protect anyone).

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

It doesn't matter if it is in any guide, or still in the game. If it is not accesible. It is not lore.



2 in 39 years is not common and they are that destructive. 2 cases of loose abomination in the entire world of Thedas is would actually make abominations very rare, which they thankfully are.



from the codex: "Adralla of Vyrantium dedicated her life to the study of blood magic—the academic study, rather than the practice." No... She wasn't.

[Huntress]

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The scene of Wynne wanting the Blood Mage Warden arrested is NOT canon. If it is not accesible through the vanilla game, or through any official patch, it is NOT lore. I'm sorry to break that bubble to you Ian. The only way that scene will ever become lore, is if a dev comes and say that it is.
[/quote]

Yes it is.  It is an official part of the game.  It was never deleted.  It's also in the official guides as well.

[qujote]
And I'd rather kill a hundred mages every 39 years (and you don't kill support staff and Templars in the tower), than let any Abomination roam free.
It took a year for a legion of Templars to hunt down an Abomination, in that time it had killed 70 people. I'm willing to bet that Abominations happen more often than once every 39th year, which would then bring the total deaths caused by Abominations in 39 years over what an annulment would cause. So even in pure math having a Circle is preferable.
[/quote]

If that were the case then all of Thedas should have been razed to the ground long ago if abominations were that destructive and that common. 

I also note that this abomination occured because of the tower (escaped circle mage) and thus should be added to the death toll of the circle.

When you consider all the societies that function without the circle perfectly well (including Andrastian societies for the first twoo hundred years),  we have absoutely no evidence that the circle system is even needed  or desireably.  None.

[quote]
Edit: and since it bothers me that you spread misinformation: Adralla was NOT a Blood Mage.[/quote]
[/quote]

Oh yes she was.  She was a refugee from the Tevinter Imperium who studed bloodmagic specifically.  She might not have used bloodmagic herself, but she had the knowledge of bloodmagic and that makes her by definition a bloodmage.  (Wynne of course gets this completely wrong).

-Polaris[/quote]

Adralla and possible Andraste were mages, thats why the chantry has hidden or destroy all the notes from that time.

You have the power, you make the rules! Today is Chantry who rules.

[Ziggeh]

IanPolaris wrote...
No they aren't.  What Uldred is doing is what any bloodmage can do with mindcontrol magic.  He is forcing the mage to consent to having the demon inhabit the body.  It's one reason why Mindcontrol magic is so scarey (a point I will never deny). 

In short, it's not the abomination that's a contagious condidition.  It's the fact that Uldred knows a ritual designed to force an abomination that's allowing him to create his army.

That means the disease model is invalid.

It's not Uldred, and you have a situation where one abomination is creating another. It's not spread through direct or indirect contact or anything, but we have a case were it's spreading. But that's fairly pedantic of me. What you should have said is that the chantry have created that situation by placing them all together.

[DKJaigen]

IanPolaris wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
You consider a drug-addicted religious fanatic trustworthy? 

I consider them trusted. In fact, the Chantry goes so far as to ensure they are loyal with dependance.

Loyal does not equate to trustworthy.  Otherwise we should dope up all our policement with heroin.

-Polaris

Not to mention this system can be used against the templars/chantry. in DAO we have some examples that mages are able to bribe templars for "additional rights". How many mages are out their that avoided justice ( i mean true justice not chantry justice) by bribing the local knight-commander

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It doesn't matter if it is in any guide, or still in the game. If it is not accesible. It is not lore.

2 in 39 years is not common and they are that destructive. 2 cases of loose abomination in the entire world of Thedas is would actually make abominations very rare, which they thankfully are.

Then you have just shot down the entire justification for the circle.  I appreciate it. 

As for the scene, it it wasn't deleted, then it's still canon.  Jowan's Intention is canon but it can't be accessed in the vanilla game either.   If this is canon then so is Wynne's bloodmage scene.  You don't get to ignore evidence because you don't like it.  Had the scene been deleted that would be something else, but it wasn't (and you can still complete the game with it activated using all the correct flags).

from the codex: "Adralla of Vyrantium dedicated her life to the study of blood magic—the academic study, rather than the practice." No... She wasn't.

Knowlege of bloodmagic makes you a malificar.  Just ask the Chantry and KC Gregoire.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 21 janvier 2011 - 09:57 .

[atheelogos]

Also I'm surprised DG hasn't jumped in here yet. lol He's probably lurking.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...

What the Chantry does is logical. Practical. Efficient. If mages existed in the real world, I'm willing to bet they would be treated pretty much the same.
Is it morally nice? No. It could be better. It can practicly always be.
But sadly, containment and such is necessary, and basic human behavior will give rise to strife between oversight and the one who is watched. This is unavoidable.

ORLY?  Then why did mutliple and different societies INCLUDING the Andrastian ones get along just fine without such circles for so long?  You only use confinement becuase it does increase civil strife if no other reasonable solution exists, but we know for an empirical fact that other solutions (better solutions) do exist or at least can be found, but the Chantry never bothers to look.  I have also exploded the MYTH that the chantry set this system up to to protect anyone.  You are engaging in an erroneous ex-post facto justification of something that was solely done to increase the chantry's power.  I don't say that.  The Chantry's own history says that.

Did they get along "just fine"? You know so little about them..They might have just barely struggled along.

No. We don't know of better solutions. And of he other solutions that exist (that we know nothing about), we don't even know if they are even applicable.. Even assuming that, for instance, the Dalish have a "better" solution, we cannot simply assume that that hypothetical sollution can be applied elsewhere...it may simply not work when applied to a different enviroment, scale and contitions.

Adn yes..."Chantry is Evill"..We have dismissed those claims.

There is a question and you keep evading it again and again. I knew it. Coward.

And as I said before, it is a proper analogy. I dont' care if you don't think so. The question I'm asking is not even tied to the analogydirectly  in the first palce and be answered separately. So I'll repeat it one final time:


Situation: Viral epidemic breaks out in the town next to you. Military establishes a quarantene of the town. People are trying to break out..military uses force to contain them. Are the actions of the military justified?

If that epidemic could not be spread, then NO quarantine would not be justified.  Leprously comes immediately to mind.  Leper colonies are now considered unwarrented and unjust because the disease simply can't be spread by casual contact (it takes repeated exposure over years).  The same applies to AIDS which while absolutely deadly can only be spread by very specific (and controllable) ways.

So no, your analogy completely fails.

It doesn't..Becasue you failed (again) to think about it. So, for the n(th) time I will go over this..because some pople won't learn unless you break it down into atoms for them...so, le'ts being.

Commonalities in danger level and behavior with abominations and viruses (assume a new virus that has no known detection methods).

centralized, known source
- a virus infection starts in the town. anyone from the town is a potential sourfe of further infection and thus a danger. Known source: town citizens
- any mage can become and abomination (or try mind control)...he's thus a danger. Known source: mages

impossible to detect, intention of carreir irrelevant
- a dormant virus, no means of detection. Anyone can be a carrier, with a dormant virus inside. Virus doesn't care about the hosts intentions. Good or bad, both cna cause death of hunderds.
- who is to become and abomination is impossible to detect. Inentions of the mage are irrelevant, he wil become an abomination if he's overpowered by a deamon or tricked.

Prevention methods - none
- there are no acceptalbe methods of preventing the danger..short of nuking the site and killing the whle town
- short of killing all mages or tranqilizing them, there are no known methods of preventing an abomination rampage

spread and danger level
- can spread trough physical contact. even air. Prximity to any carrier is dangerous. Inefction rate and mortality high.
- an abomination can kill hunderds, can tear opening in the veil and let in other demons, creating an army of possesed corpses to ramapge and kill. Can even create other abominations if there are other mages around.

reactive-measures
- insufficient. Once a carrier gets into another village, further spread can only be stoped by another quarantene. Damage is already done
- insufficient. Once a reposne team arrives, the abmniation has already slain many, or even worse escaped. Damage already done.

pro-active measures
- best course of action - containment
- best course of action - containment


This are hte points of comparison. Naturall,y no comparison even is perfect, but the inmportant poitns are what's important. nitpicking on lesser points is IRRELEVANT. So "but hte mages are not a desease, this comparison sucks" is irrelevant to the core of the comparion an is thus invalid.

We do know because Irving at the top of the tower tells you that Gregoire has run out of time.  Also remember that Uldred had an agreement with Loghain, and so it's perfectly reasonable for Loghain to backstop and delay the Grandcleric from sending any templars until he gets word from Uldred (esp given that Loghain had promised to free the circle).  I am not saying that IS what happened in Denerim, but it seems likely. In any event, reinforcements if any we now know from canon would not have come in time if at all.

No, we do not know that.
Even Loghain cannot directly oppose the Chantry. We don't know for sure if Gregoir has "run out of time". That is jut Irwings POW and Irwing is hardly infallible or knows the situation with the reinforcements or the sitation at the lower floors.

No, you are a chantry apologist.  I have pointed out REAL evidence that goes against what you believe but you persist.  That's fine, but don't call yourself a realist.

I have pointed out REAL evidence against what you belive, but you persist.
I am realist and if you don't like it...tough.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 21 janvier 2011 - 09:58 .

[IanPolaris]

It's not Uldred, and you have a situation where one abomination is creating another. It's not spread through direct or indirect contact or anything, but we have a case were it's spreading. But that's fairly pedantic of me. What you should have said is that the chantry have created that situation by placing them all together.

If it's pendantic then why say it except to score cheap points?  Even in the tower only mages seem to be suspectible to this transfer (and given that there are few few mages outside the towers) the disease model certainly fails.  Moreover, while it wasn't Uldred, it had all of Uldred's magical knowledge (that's sort of the point of abominations). 

It wasn't abominations spreading merely by being in contact with abominations.  It was an abomination that happened to know a bloodmagic ritual that could make other abominations....and that's completely different.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

atheelogos wrote...

Also I'm surprised DG hasn't jumped in here yet. lol He's probably lurking.

DG would be forced to take a side and given that DA2 that will deal with this is only a month or so away.....I can see why he'd be silent.

-Polaris

[Lotion Soronarr]

atheelogos wrote...
Mages beaten into submission? Why the assume they will lose?

Quite simply..99% of non-mages don't trust them and prefer to see them in the towers. And mages are already a very small minority, with a large part of them being content with their current position.

[Ziggeh]

IanPolaris wrote...
Loyal does not equate to
trustworthy.  Otherwise we should dope up all our policement with
heroin.

Worthy of trust doesn't preclude trust. Trustworthy does not equal trusted. The situation you outlined didn't include worthiness either.

[Ziggeh]

IanPolaris wrote...

If it's pendantic then why say it except to score cheap points?

Because without it the analogy you were countering holds.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

That must explain why Greagoir only permitted seven mages to Ostagar. Had more been permitted, the Fifth Blight might have been averted. If more were typically permitted before it got so bad to be a Blight, then maybe there would not be any Blights to contend with.

Where do you get that number from?

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And I should care about what Duncan thinks because...?

He knows more about the darkspawn than you given his experience as a Grey Warden and the Warden-Commander of Ferelden.

About the darkspawn yes...so why should I care about his oppinion on mages?

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Beaten into submission? You make it pretty clear what sort of organization the Chantry really is - I'm sure Strangelove would be proud. Better to die on your feet than live on your knees, Lotion.

I'm not making any statements at all on the Chantry there. War is hell.

And I'd say that it's better to accept your responsibility in life then run from it.

Because we disagree with you? Because I know that Ian disagreed, and even provided codex entries and quotes to prove you wrong.

I have provided a zillion codex entries, dev quotes and firm evidence in discussion with you before...nothing seems to stick or matter. So yea...think what you want.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...
All this tells me that outside the regessive circle system (and it is regressive) that feeds on negative emotions (which demons love), the rate of abominations seems to be rather low and you have to willingly sell your soul to a demon (let it in as Mouse would say) to become one (that or force a combat in the fade in lose and be overwhelmed which seems to have what happened with Uldred).

speculation. Uncofirmend. Ignored.

Mages that live in dangerous places for decades and centuries  even where the Veil is thinnest don't seem to become abominations at anything like the rate the Chantry would suggest.

-Polaris

Oh yes...a grand total of 2 great examples... And I'm sure Uldred, the Baroness, Connor and plenty of others deserve no mention...
Adnb yes...Zathrian and Avernus..you mention those two of all people. How very nice and smart epople..no, they didn't almost f*** up everything royally with their curses and experiments.
Not exactly poster boys for the "free the mages movement" are they?

[Huntress]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

atheelogos wrote...
Mages beaten into submission? Why the assume they will lose?

Quite simply..99% of non-mages don't trust them and prefer to see them in the towers. And mages are already a very small minority, with a large part of them being content with their current position.

Wow the mages are content in the towers? Really.. I think you are reading/listening to much to the chantry news channel.

Not one is happy of been in a jailed, not even zev was happy with his, and let me tell you Zev, did have it better in all way and sizes.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It doesn't matter if it is in any guide, or still in the game. If it is not accesible. It is not lore.

2 in 39 years is not common and they are that destructive. 2 cases of loose abomination in the entire world of Thedas is would actually make abominations very rare, which they thankfully are.

Then you have just shot down the entire justification for the circle.  I appreciate it. 

As for the scene, it it wasn't deleted, then it's still canon.  Jowan's Intention is canon but it can't be accessed in the vanilla game either.   If this is canon then so is Wynne's bloodmage scene.  You don't get to ignore evidence because you don't like it.  Had the scene been deleted that would be something else, but it wasn't (and you can still complete the game with it activated using all the correct flags).

It doesn't matter ffs. If the scene is on PURPOSE deactivated, it invalidates its status. The scene with Jowan is inaccisible due to a bug. Do you see the difference?
By your logic, all the cut content still on the disc of KoTOR 2 is lore. Which it isn't.

.... The only justification the Templars use is that Abominations are dangerous. Which they are. They are not trying to tell us that they are common in anyway, just that they are extremely dangerous.
The only reason the one I talked about got caught so "fast" was because the Templars were aware of it. If there were no Circles, and all Abominations would have a Conner-like scenario (more or less), it could take weeks, even months, before the Tempalrs ever even heard about the Abominations, by that time the Abomination could get even higher deathtolls.

IanPolaris wrote...

from the codex: "Adralla of Vyrantium dedicated her life to the study of blood magic—the academic study, rather than the practice." No... She wasn't.

Knowlege of bloodmagic makes you a malificar.  Just ask the Chantry and KC Gregoire.

-Polaris

I wonder why the Chantry then gave her asylum. Hmmm, could it be because she provided a lot of knowledge about Blood Magic, and defenses against all forms of Mind Control? Gee, I don't know but it sure looks like it.
.... No, she was not a Blood Mage. Having knowledge about the forbidden arts does not make you a  practioner of it. By your logic, any one who knows about the rituals of the Ku Klux Klan are a member. Which, I hope, you can see is faulty logic.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And what if the man with the key to the WMDs get mind controlled?

Make sure the person mind-controlling him doesn't want to use it.  That means having your own WMDs with your own ability to mind-control.

Blood magic doesn't have to mean mind-control, and mind-control is a fact.  It CAN be used beneficially (like any other powerful thing).

What you can't do is pretend it doesn't exist because that makes you vunerable to those that should have it the least.

-Polaris

HAhah.. mind control doesn't really work that way. What you would have in that scenario is WW3.

It's like building Skynet and making sure every country has their own Skynet..now that's a sure way to ensure world peple...no, it would NEVER turn on us..why would it EVER do that?:D

[IanPolaris]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Did they get along "just fine"? You know so little about them..They might have just barely struggled along.
[/quote]

During the first two hundred years of the Chantry age, Orlais was rapidly growing into the dominant power that would eventually replace Tevinter as such.  During the Ancient age both Arthathan and Ancient Tevinter were both thriving and vibrant nation-states.  During the same first two hundred years of the chantry age, the Dales were a powerful and proud nation with a strong and vibrant society (it took an entire exalted march to BARELY win against the Dales).

We know enough to know that these socieites worked very well without the circle.

[quote]
No. We don't know of better solutions. And of he other solutions that exist (that we know nothing about), we don't even know if they are even applicable.. Even assuming that, for instance, the Dalish have a "better" solution, we cannot simply assume that that hypothetical sollution can be applied elsewhere...it may simply not work when applied to a different enviroment, scale and contitions.

Adn yes..."Chantry is Evill"..We have dismissed those claims.
[/quote]

Yes we do, not becaues the Chantry is Evil (although that case could certainly be made) but because even within Andrastian societies itself, the most devote and anti-magical forces in society didn't think that isolating the mages was needed to protect anyone.  That's not my word on this.  That's established Chantry history.

[quote]
[quote]
[quote]
There is a question and you keep evading it again and again. I knew it. Coward.

And as I said before, it is a proper analogy. I dont' care if you don't think so. The question I'm asking is not even tied to the analogydirectly  in the first palce and be answered separately. So I'll repeat it one final time:


Situation: Viral epidemic breaks out in the town next to you. Military establishes a quarantene of the town. People are trying to break out..military uses force to contain them. Are the actions of the military justified?
[/quote]

If that epidemic could not be spread, then NO quarantine would not be justified.  Leprously comes immediately to mind.  Leper colonies are now considered unwarrented and unjust because the disease simply can't be spread by casual contact (it takes repeated exposure over years).  The same applies to AIDS which while absolutely deadly can only be spread by very specific (and controllable) ways.

So no, your analogy completely fails.[/quote]

It doesn't..Becasue you failed (again) to think about it. So, for the n(th) time I will go over this..because some pople won't learn unless you break it down into atoms for them...so, le'ts being.

Commonalities in danger level and behavior with abominations and viruses (assume a new virus that has no known detection methods).

centralized, known source
- a virus infection starts in the town. anyone from the town is a potential sourfe of further infection and thus a danger. Known source: town citizens
- any mage can become and abomination (or try mind control)...he's thus a danger. Known source: mages
[/quote]

Abomination yes, mind-control no.  Mind control is aparently only available to bloodmagies and it's extremely advanced bloodmagic at that.

[quote]
impossible to detect, intention of carreir irrelevant
- a dormant virus, no means of detection. Anyone can be a carrier, with a dormant virus inside. Virus doesn't care about the hosts intentions. Good or bad, both cna cause death of hunderds.
- who is to become and abomination is impossible to detect. Inentions of the mage are irrelevant, he wil become an abomination if he's overpowered by a deamon or tricked.
[/quote]

However, in the case of abominations there are known risk factors that can be avoided.  The circle not only fails to research these risk factors but actually AGRAVATES them.

[quote]
Prevention methods - none
- there are no acceptalbe methods of preventing the danger..short of nuking the site and killing the whle town
- short of killing all mages or tranqilizing them, there are no known methods of preventing an abomination rampage
[/quote]

False.  Education is the primary prevention method here.  Listen to Mouse.  You can only become an abomination if you let that demon in (or force a confontation with a demon and lose in the fade).  There are prevention methods.

[quote]
spread and danger level
- can spread trough physical contact. even air. Prximity to any carrier is dangerous. Inefction rate and mortality high.
- an abomination can kill hunderds, can tear opening in the veil and let in other demons, creating an army of possesed corpses to ramapge and kill. Can even create other abominations if there are other mages around.
[/quote]

Utterly false and horrible comparison.  You are forgetting that it's easy for many airborn viruses to spread (the contagion rate) while it's almost impossible to make a mage an abomination unless he wants to become one.  Of all the abominations we see in the game ONLY ONE can do it and only by using a specific bloodmagic ritual which involves mind-control

Abominations completely fail in this comparison.

[quote]
reactive-measures
- insufficient. Once a carrier gets into another village, further spread can only be stoped by another quarantene. Damage is already done
- insufficient. Once a reposne team arrives, the abmniation has already slain many, or even worse escaped. Damage already done.
[/quote]

I point out that Mages Collective quest as a counterexample.  In that case you are hired to deal with a potential abomination situation and only one death occured.  That's impressive.  There is no reason to think that with appropriate safeguards OUTSIDE the circle, an abomination can't be detected and dealth with swifty especially since we have on record many sucessful societies in history (many hightly magical) that have done just that.

[quote]
pro-active measures
- best course of action - containment
- best course of action - containment
[/quote]

Best course of action agressive regulation and monitering.

[quote]
This are hte points of comparison. Naturall,y no comparison even is perfect, but the inmportant poitns are what's important. nitpicking on lesser points is IRRELEVANT. So "but hte mages are not a desease, this comparison sucks" is irrelevant to the core of the comparion an is thus invalid.
[/quote]

I've pointed out many times why this comparison completely fails.  A better (but IMO still wrong) comparison would be to the criminally insane.

[quote]
[quote]
We do know because Irving at the top of the tower tells you that Gregoire has run out of time.  Also remember that Uldred had an agreement with Loghain, and so it's perfectly reasonable for Loghain to backstop and delay the Grandcleric from sending any templars until he gets word from Uldred (esp given that Loghain had promised to free the circle).  I am not saying that IS what happened in Denerim, but it seems likely. In any event, reinforcements if any we now know from canon would not have come in time if at all.[/quote]

No, we do not know that.
Even Loghain cannot directly oppose the Chantry. We don't know for sure if Gregoir has "run out of time". That is jut Irwings POW and Irwing is hardly infallible or knows the situation with the reinforcements or the sitation at the lower floors.
[/quote]

What do you call snatching a bloodmage from the templars other than directly opposing the chantry?  Loghain also doesn't have to directly oppose anything.  All he has to do is convince the Grand Cleric that her KC is overreacting and given the dicey political situation (and esp if the Grand Cleric receives no further informtion) it's proibably an easy sell.

Do I know all of this as the unvarished truth?  Of course not.  Never said I did, but it is highly plausible.

[quote]
[quote]
No, you are a chantry apologist.  I have pointed out REAL evidence that goes against what you believe but you persist.  That's fine, but don't call yourself a realist.
[/quote]

I have pointed out REAL evidence against what you belive, but you persist.
I am realist and if you don't like it...tough.

[/quote]

Funny how in your 'realistic' world the chantry and those that apologize for it (Wynne, Kelli, etc) are never wrong.....

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

atheelogos wrote...
Mages beaten into submission? Why the assume they will lose?

Quite simply..99% of non-mages don't trust them and prefer to see them in the towers. And mages are already a very small minority, with a large part of them being content with their current position.

Facts not in evidence.  In addition, I suppose that the Chantry's preaching hate towards mages has nothing to do with that, right?

-Polaris

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...
Let's deal with reality shall we?  Mind control magic exists.  It's dangerous and powerful.  That being so, it's better to research it and come up with ways to try to defend against it.  The BLOOD MAGE Adralla certainly thought so.

This is one very important reason why the prohibition on bloodmagic is terminally stupid.  It leaves you vunerable to those that can learn bloodmagic anyway (and you will never get rid of it since demons will cheerfully teach it) and so banning it means that only the worst and vilest of people have it leaving you virtually defenseless against it.  Leaving the most powerful form of magic solely in the hands of criminal mages (and one that can mind control to boot) is a stupid, stupid, thing to do.

No, that is stupid. Mind control is NOT like other magic or weapons. It's so different on a fundamental level that it's practicly pointless comparing it to them. not to mention you gleefully ignore the basic human psychology in this.

The less people with mind control, the better. Anything that culls their numbers is a blessing to humanity.

And no, you're not TOTALY defensless. for one, there's limit to how many people one can mind-control at once. For antoher, the templars have some resistance to it.

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And what if the man with the key to the WMDs get mind controlled?

Make sure the person mind-controlling him doesn't want to use it.  That means having your own WMDs with your own ability to mind-control.

Blood magic doesn't have to mean mind-control, and mind-control is a fact.  It CAN be used beneficially (like any other powerful thing).

What you can't do is pretend it doesn't exist because that makes you vunerable to those that should have it the least.

-Polaris

HAhah.. mind control doesn't really work that way. What you would have in that scenario is WW3.

It's like building Skynet and making sure every country has their own Skynet..now that's a sure way to ensure world peple...no, it would NEVER turn on us..why would it EVER do that?:D

Mind control magic EXISTS.  That is a fact.  Given that demons are willing to teach it, you will never be able to wipe it out.

Given these facts of the game, Mr Realist, how do you deal with it (and banning it is NOT dealing with it).

-Polaris