1869 réponses à ce sujet

[atheelogos]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

atheelogos wrote...
Mages beaten into submission? Why the assume they will lose?

Quite simply..99% of non-mages don't trust them and prefer to see them in the towers. And mages are already a very small minority, with a large part of them being content with their current position.

99%? Hmmm maybe we should stay away from such absolutes here. Those types of numbers really are things we can't know at the moment.

"And mages are already a very small minority" Yes but how small is the question? Again we can't really know that for certain, though I would say your probably right. If this were a real situation they'd probably lose if it came to full out war even though we can't be sure of their numbers at the moment.

With that said this is not a real situation. Its a game. And in a game they have to give whatever side you pick a chance at winning. To do the opposite would surprise the player in all the wrong ways, which is something DG himself has said, recently in fact, they try to avoid, so if Bioware gives us a choice then I could see the mages gaining some ground. Again maybe thats not realistic but there it is.

[IanPolaris]

Ziggeh wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

If it's pendantic then why say it except to score cheap points?

Because without it the analogy you were countering holds.

No it does not.  There is no evidence (and plenty of contradictory evidence) that suggest that merely being an abomination causes others to become abominations.  Uldred had to perform a mind-control ritual to do it (we know this becasue the Rite of Adralla counters it).  This is NOT instrinsic to being an abomination.  The disease model completely fails in that regard.

-Polaris

[atheelogos]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And what if the man with the key to the WMDs get mind controlled?

Make sure the person mind-controlling him doesn't want to use it.  That means having your own WMDs with your own ability to mind-control.

Blood magic doesn't have to mean mind-control, and mind-control is a fact.  It CAN be used beneficially (like any other powerful thing).

What you can't do is pretend it doesn't exist because that makes you vunerable to those that should have it the least.

-Polaris

HAhah.. mind control doesn't really work that way. What you would have in that scenario is WW3.

It's like building Skynet and making sure every country has their own Skynet..now that's a sure way to ensure world peple...no, it would NEVER turn on us..why would it EVER do that?:D

Mind control magic EXISTS.  That is a fact.  Given that demons are willing to teach it, you will never be able to wipe it out.

Given these facts of the game, Mr Realist, how do you deal with it (and banning it is NOT dealing with it).

-Polaris

Yes banning something tends to make the situation worse doesn't it? Thats certainly true in our world.

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And no, you're not TOTALY defensless. for one, there's limit to how many people one can mind-control at once. For antoher, the templars have some resistance to it.

Actually anti-magic ward is an even better defense against it.  The best weapon against magic is magic.  Even the Qunari (who hate and despise all magic) admit this.

-Polaris

[atheelogos]

IanPolaris wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

Also I'm surprised DG hasn't jumped in here yet. lol He's probably lurking.

DG would be forced to take a side and given that DA2 that will deal with this is only a month or so away.....I can see why he'd be silent.

-Polaris

too right you are.

[atheelogos]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

atheelogos wrote...
Mages beaten into submission? Why the assume they will lose?

Quite simply..99% of non-mages don't trust them and prefer to see them in the towers. And mages are already a very small minority, with a large part of them being content with their current position.

Facts not in evidence.  In addition, I suppose that the Chantry's preaching hate towards mages has nothing to do with that, right?

-Polaris

Another very good point. Propaganda will only serve to inflame the situation

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It doesn't matter ffs. If the scene is on PURPOSE deactivated, it invalidates its status. The scene with Jowan is inaccisible due to a bug. Do you see the difference?
By your logic, all the cut content still on the disc of KoTOR 2 is lore. Which it isn't.

Neither Jowan's Intentions nor Wynne's confrontation with the Warden bloodmage were CUT.  That's the difference.

.... The only justification the Templars use is that Abominations are dangerous. Which they are. They are not trying to tell us that they are common in anyway, just that they are extremely dangerous.
The only reason the one I talked about got caught so "fast" was because the Templars were aware of it. If there were no Circles, and all Abominations would have a Conner-like scenario (more or less), it could take weeks, even months, before the Tempalrs ever even heard about the Abominations, by that time the Abomination could get even higher deathtolls.

The false dichotomy stikes again.  No one is saying that magic and mages shouldn't be regulated and that MEANS being watched in some fashion....possibly more than mundanes are watched.  Guess what, I have yet to see anyone here or really even any mage in the game seriously dispute this point.  Conner with an appropraite (and liscensed) magical tutor could have explained what Demons were to Conner when his father was poisoned and why you can't trust strangers in dreams.  That's "being a mage" 101....but Jowan was incompetant!

As for "abominations are dangerous" that doesn't fly because the circle wasn't established to protect against abominations or protect anyone (for that matter).  It was a naked powerplay by the chantry as the Chantry's own history confirms.

IanPolaris wrote...

from the codex: "Adralla of Vyrantium dedicated her life to the study of blood magic—the academic study, rather than the practice." No... She wasn't.

Knowlege of bloodmagic makes you a malificar.  Just ask the Chantry and KC Gregoire.

-Polaris

I wonder why the Chantry then gave her asylum. Hmmm, could it be because she provided a lot of knowledge about Blood Magic, and defenses against all forms of Mind Control? Gee, I don't know but it sure looks like it.
.... No, she was not a Blood Mage. Having knowledge about the forbidden arts does not make you a  practioner of it. By your logic, any one who knows about the rituals of the Ku Klux Klan are a member. Which, I hope, you can see is faulty logic.

Or she was given clemency in exchange for her knowledge which seems a lot more likely especially since the Chantry (as confirmed by the sisters in Denerim) is notorious for rewriting history to suit themselves.  I do know that in the game, knowledge of bloodmagic makes you a malificar.

-Polaris

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

What the Chantry does is vile, horrific, and monstrous. Imprisons people for who they are. Conditions mages to resort to forbidden magic to survive against the templars who are hunting them down. Murders innocent people who templars falsely assume are mages (D'Sims). And given how mages will always rebel against their oppressors, hardly the efficient system that you profess it to be.[/quote]

What the Chantry does is necessary. A lesser evil. It would be nice if a better system was used, but untill such system is presented (hard, solid proof needed) this one is good enough. don't see the reason to change it.

If I was a pesant living in thedas, I'd want mages locked up in the towers.

And no..It does not condition mages to resrt to fobidden magics...unless you go to hte extreemes of hte definition..but I can do that too. the mages condition templars to kill them because they resist!

Mages will always rebel. Some, yes. but so will prisoners in prison. Rebelion is no reason to break down the system. There is always malcontents.


[quote]
Magisters were human. Would it make any sense to imprison all humans because they allegedly caused the Blight?[/quote]

Only if all humans could suddenly turn into abominations with no warning.



[quote]
Even Duncan admitsthat the Chantry barely tolerates magic. Cullen admits that templars discuss killing mages with glee. Kolgrim mentions the different attitudes the Disciples of Andraste and the Andrastian Chantry have towards magic. In Andrastian nations, mages are openly despised, feared, and hated because the Chantry blames them for the Blight, despite that it's the Tevinter who were allegedly responsible for this unlikely origin story for the darkspawn.[/quote]

duncan is only one man with his own views.
Cullen? So what. Tehre's always a few peopel liek that. There are some soldiers in Iraq/Afghanistan who talk with glee about killing "towelheads". Mages are dangerous poeple. There's pleanty of reason to fear them..and fear breeds hate. no propaganda is necessary.



[quote]
I never said it was inevitable. I said that EVERY mage is in constant danger of becoming an abomination 24/7. [/quote]

Anyone can become possessed. Remember Ander's cat? Killed four templars. Clearly, following your logic, everyone in Thedas must be imprisoned.[/quote]

Hehe...you're making this too easy.

1. non-mages can only be possesed under special circumstances (like where the veil is torn). Mages can be possesed anywhere, anytime

2. possesed non-mages are nowhere near as powerfull and dangerous  as true abominations.




[quote]
You mentioning him in EVERY SINGLE POST of yours is ....madening. 
Mistaks happen in every system. There are trigger-happy fooIs in every system. I fail to see your point. [/quote]

Because he was an innocent person killed by templars on the basis of speculation. I don't see how you fail to see the problem with killing people merely on the basis that they may be a mage.[/quote]

And that's the reason you mention him in every post? Nah, it's because you hate the templas and chantry and use every single post to jsut list their "crimes" (real of false), evne when it has NOTHINGto do with the actual topic or question. You did that several times.

And you also copy-paste your own posts over and over......what, you're plaing to drive me mad or win the debate  trough attrition?

As for the last part. No, I do have a problem with innocent people being killed. I do have a problem wiht the guilty ones getting away unpunished. But that happens in every society and every system. Yet you hapr on it like crazy, liek it's something extra-super-speial here. It's not.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It doesn't matter ffs. If the scene is on PURPOSE deactivated, it invalidates its status. The scene with Jowan is inaccisible due to a bug. Do you see the difference?
By your logic, all the cut content still on the disc of KoTOR 2 is lore. Which it isn't.

Neither Jowan's Intentions nor Wynne's confrontation with the Warden bloodmage were CUT.  That's the difference.

.... The only justification the Templars use is that Abominations are dangerous. Which they are. They are not trying to tell us that they are common in anyway, just that they are extremely dangerous.
The only reason the one I talked about got caught so "fast" was because the Templars were aware of it. If there were no Circles, and all Abominations would have a Conner-like scenario (more or less), it could take weeks, even months, before the Tempalrs ever even heard about the Abominations, by that time the Abomination could get even higher deathtolls.

The false dichotomy stikes again.  No one is saying that magic and mages shouldn't be regulated and that MEANS being watched in some fashion....possibly more than mundanes are watched.  Guess what, I have yet to see anyone here or really even any mage in the game seriously dispute this point.  Conner with an appropraite (and liscensed) magical tutor could have explained what Demons were to Conner when his father was poisoned and why you can't trust strangers in dreams.  That's "being a mage" 101....but Jowan was incompetant!

As for "abominations are dangerous" that doesn't fly because the circle wasn't established to protect against abominations or protect anyone (for that matter).  It was a naked powerplay by the chantry as the Chantry's own history confirms.

IanPolaris wrote...

from the codex: "Adralla of Vyrantium dedicated her life to the study of blood magic—the academic study, rather than the practice." No... She wasn't.

Knowlege of bloodmagic makes you a malificar.  Just ask the Chantry and KC Gregoire.

-Polaris

I wonder why the Chantry then gave her asylum. Hmmm, could it be because she provided a lot of knowledge about Blood Magic, and defenses against all forms of Mind Control? Gee, I don't know but it sure looks like it.
.... No, she was not a Blood Mage. Having knowledge about the forbidden arts does not make you a  practioner of it. By your logic, any one who knows about the rituals of the Ku Klux Klan are a member. Which, I hope, you can see is faulty logic.

Or she was given clemency in exchange for her knowledge which seems a lot more likely especially since the Chantry (as confirmed by the sisters in Denerim) is notorious for rewriting history to suit themselves.  I do know that in the game, knowledge of bloodmagic makes you a malificar.

-Polaris

The scene with Wynne was on purpose made inaccsible. Do you not get it? The developers did not want us to experience it. It is no longer part of the game. It has zero value in the lore. Its only value is in a "what if-" scenario.
And where in the game are you condemned as a blood mage for having knowledge about Blood Magic?

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[IanPolaris]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

What the Chantry does is vile, horrific, and monstrous. Imprisons people for who they are. Conditions mages to resort to forbidden magic to survive against the templars who are hunting them down. Murders innocent people who templars falsely assume are mages (D'Sims). And given how mages will always rebel against their oppressors, hardly the efficient system that you profess it to be.[/quote]

What the Chantry does is necessary. A lesser evil. It would be nice if a better system was used, but untill such system is presented (hard, solid proof needed) this one is good enough. don't see the reason to change it.

If I was a pesant living in thedas, I'd want mages locked up in the towers.
[/quote]

Not even the Chantry agrees with you.  Read History of the Circle again.  The chantry didn't imprison mages in the circles to protect anyone.  That's a simple fact.

As for the peasents in thedas, the chantry is largely responsible for generating that sentiment as the Reverand Mother in Redcliff rather shamefacedly admits (and is suprised that a mage would help her....and with good reason).

[quote]
And no..It does not condition mages to resrt to fobidden magics...unless you go to hte extreemes of hte definition..but I can do that too. the mages condition templars to kill them because they resist!

Mages will always rebel. Some, yes. but so will prisoners in prison. Rebelion is no reason to break down the system. There is always malcontents.
[/quote]

Yes but in this case you are imprisoning people for what they might (and apparently only very, very rarely) might become....and in fact we know for a fact based on the Chantry's own history that is'not even necessary.  Bloodmagic is more powerful than other types of magic and (stupidly) banned which means that the templars and loyalist mages have no defense against it.

Given that the imprisoned (and unjustly imprisoned at that!) mages will always try to resist, bloodmagic is an easy open invitation created by the Chnatry's own rules!  I am stunned you can not see that.  The captured bloodmage in the tower makes it painfully clear and obvious if you'd bother to listen.

[quote]
[quote]
Magisters were human. Would it make any sense to imprison all humans because they allegedly caused the Blight?[/quote]

Only if all humans could suddenly turn into abominations with no warning.
[/quote]

Humans can become possessed with no  little (edit) warning.  It's harder than with mages but they can.

[quote]
[quote]
Even Duncan admitsthat the Chantry barely tolerates magic. Cullen admits that templars discuss killing mages with glee. Kolgrim mentions the different attitudes the Disciples of Andraste and the Andrastian Chantry have towards magic. In Andrastian nations, mages are openly despised, feared, and hated because the Chantry blames them for the Blight, despite that it's the Tevinter who were allegedly responsible for this unlikely origin story for the darkspawn.[/quote]

duncan is only one man with his own views.
Cullen? So what. Tehre's always a few peopel liek that. There are some soldiers in Iraq/Afghanistan who talk with glee about killing "towelheads". Mages are dangerous poeple. There's pleanty of reason to fear them..and fear breeds hate. no propaganda is necessary.
[/quote]

Here's the difference. Our soldiers in Afghanistan are subject to the UCMJ and thus are held accountable for their actions.  No one holds Templars accountable for anything they do to a mage.


[quote]
[quote]
I never said it was inevitable. I said that EVERY mage is in constant danger of becoming an abomination 24/7. [/quote]

Anyone can become possessed. Remember Ander's cat? Killed four templars. Clearly, following your logic, everyone in Thedas must be imprisoned.[/quote]

Hehe...you're making this too easy.

1. non-mages can only be possesed under special circumstances (like where the veil is torn). Mages can be possesed anywhere, anytime

2. possesed non-mages are nowhere near as powerfull and dangerous  as true abominations.
[/quote]

This was also true 700 years ago, 1700 years ago, and even 17,000 years ago. Again, you are missing the obvious point.  NOT EVEN THE CHANTRY thought that the abomination issue was sufficient reason to lock away all mages and throw away the key.  It was done solely becasue Ambrosia II wanted more power.  This is the Chantry's own history saying this.  The Abomination canard is an ex post facto justification of something that otherwise moral and ordinary people would not  and could not justify.

[quote]
[quote]
You mentioning him in EVERY SINGLE POST of yours is ....madening. 
Mistaks happen in every system. There are trigger-happy fooIs in every system. I fail to see your point. [/quote]

Because he was an innocent person killed by templars on the basis of speculation. I don't see how you fail to see the problem with killing people merely on the basis that they may be a mage.[/quote]

And that's the reason you mention him in every post? Nah, it's because you hate the templas and chantry and use every single post to jsut list their "crimes" (real of false), evne when it has NOTHINGto do with the actual topic or question. You did that several times.

And you also copy-paste your own posts over and over......what, you're plaing to drive me mad or win the debate  trough attrition?

As for the last part. No, I do have a problem with innocent people being killed. I do have a problem wiht the guilty ones getting away unpunished. But that happens in every society and every system. Yet you hapr on it like crazy, liek it's something extra-super-speial here. It's not.
[/quote]

You apparently like Templars lording over Mages with NO ACCOUNTABILITY.  We're done here.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 21 janvier 2011 - 11:16 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

atheelogos wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

*yawn*  .. and how many mages destroy entire villages?
Yes, I can safely say that the circle system is better than no circle system

I can safely say that the number of dead mages is insignificant compared to the number of villagers that would have died, had those same mages been running arounf free for 700 years.

You're making claims with no proof. A mage is one person; how dangerous is a religious institution like the Chantry, that can do anything in the name of the Maker?Mages don't get to call an Exalted March, though. Not on a cathedral (see: History of the Circle codex), not on the Dales (and the elves claim templars went into the Dales after they kicked out the missionaries), and I'd say the fall of the Dales lead to more deaths than any abomination has.

Logic is my proof. And math.

We know, both from game and fluff, the massive amount of a damage a single abomination is capable off. Having them rampage in the countryside for 700 years will lead to how many Connor scenarios? Lors only knows. That's 1 - ONE - untrained child mage killing off an entire village. How many people are there?
Uldred, a trained mage, wreakks havocc, killing mages and templars alike, teraing the veil and brining more abominations in. Now what if he did that in the middle fo a town?

How many mages are there in the word? How many mage towers? Immagine all of those mages runnign around.

Yes..17 towers lost in 700 years is chicken feed.

So lock up an entire group of people because of what they could do and not for what they did do? Should we lock up all nobles because Loghain started a war? If one noble can start one surely another can right?

And it's not all about numbers my friend. It's about the humane treatment of sentient being. It doesn't matter if the people in question are a minority or majority. They desever rights. Maybe you don't believe every person is entitled to fair treatment? I guess that's where we differ, and if that is the case I guess we'll never see eye to eye on this issue.... shame really

No.
Lock them up because at any moment they (your mage bowling buddies) can turn into monsters, kill you, raise your corpse to butcher your family,  and then proceed to do that to your negihbor and the rest of the village....regardless if they wanted it or not.

People keep equating this to some sort of racism, but in reality there is no clear historical paralel in our universe.

Yes, locking them up in not nice. Neither is putting people in the quarantene and shooting them when they try to break out. Horrible...but if you had your family outside that quarantene zone,
you'd shoot.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The scene with Wynne was on purpose made inaccsible. Do you not get it? The developers did not want us to experience it. It is no longer part of the game. It has zero value in the lore. Its only value is in a "what if-" scenario.
And where in the game are you condemned as a blood mage for having knowledge about Blood Magic?

ribute name="align" value="right" />

The scene was NOT CUT.  Therefore it is part of the lore.  The only reason (at least this is what the devs have said) that the triggers were disabled was because BW ran out of money and time and couldn't bugfix the ending.

It's still part of the canonical game.

-Polaris

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Yes..17 towers lost in 700 years is chicken feed. [/quote]

It's not chicken feed; it's countless men, women, and children brutally murdered, and we have no way of knowing if those Rites were even jusitified or necessary. You provided no proof that the Chantry has actually done anything to limit the spread of abominations when we continue to read encounters where mages resort to becoming abominations as a direct result of the templars.[/quote]

It is chicken feed when compared to the numberof people in the villages that would get killed.

And yes, I have proven they have limited the spread of abominations. Again, simple math. And what do you mean by "continue to read". There was one such example. Not to meniont that you don't need templars for mages to turn into abominations. They do that just fine on their own.




[quote]
What if the man with the key had no choice because his wife and family were kidnapped? How is that any different?[/qutoe]

He still has a choice. not to mention that someone with a mind control doesn't need to go that that effort. He'll simply make you belive that oyu WANT to push that button..that you want to kill your own wife and children.

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No.
Lock them up because at any moment they (your mage bowling buddies) can turn into monsters, kill you, raise your corpse to butcher your family,  and then proceed to do that to your negihbor and the rest of the village....regardless if they wanted it or not.

It doesn't happen that suddenly.  We also know that abominations can be nipped in the bud.  It's not a matter of a person blinking and one second he's a mage and the next an abomination.  Doesn't happen that way either in game or in lore.

People keep equating this to some sort of racism, but in reality there is no clear historical paralel in our universe.

Isn't it?  Even within the game, mages were locked away only because the Chantry wanted power.  We know for a fact that it's not necessary because we have all sorts of counter examples including Andrastian societies that say it's not.

Yes, locking them up in not nice. Neither is putting people in the quarantene and shooting them when they try to break out. Horrible...but if you had your family outside that quarantene zone,
you'd shoot.

The 'vector mechanics' of Abominations since you persist in using the disease model don't even come close to this sort of quarantine measure.  This is the sort of quarantine measure you'd expect from a hypothetica outbreak of airborn ebola or the like.

In fact,abominations (and especially outside the circle) seem to be exceptionally rare even in cases such as where the veil is sundered where you'd think they'd be more common, and they can be contained with only local damage (even Redcliff was contained without any help from the circle or templars I might add).

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Yes..17 towers lost in 700 years is chicken feed.

It's not chicken feed; it's countless men, women, and children brutally murdered, and we have no way of knowing if those Rites were even jusitified or necessary. You provided no proof that the Chantry has actually done anything to limit the spread of abominations when we continue to read encounters where mages resort to becoming abominations as a direct result of the templars.

It is chicken feed when compared to the numberof people in the villages that would get killed.

And yes, I have proven they have limited the spread of abominations. Again, simple math. And what do you mean by "continue to read". There was one such example. Not to meniont that you don't need templars for mages to turn into abominations. They do that just fine on their own.

What proof.  What is the rate of abominations and deaths due to abominations outside the tower pre- and post- circles.  Please supply the evidence or stop claiming you have proven your case.  You've done nothing of the kind.  "It's Obvious" is not proof.

What if the man with the key had no choice because his wife and family were kidnapped? How is that any different?

He still has a choice. not to mention that someone with a mind control doesn't need to go that that effort. He'll simply make you belive that oyu WANT to push that button..that you want to kill your own wife and children.

Let's seperate bloodmagic from abominations.  An abomination only has the magic that his magical host body had.  Very few abominations actually seem to have bloodmagic and very few can mind control (indeed canonically we run into one and only one....Uldred). 

Death or compliance is not a choice.  Really.  No legal system in the world thinks so (not even the most regressive).  In fact the word for it is duress.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 21 janvier 2011 - 11:06 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...

We know, both from game and fluff, the massive amount of a damage a single abomination is capable off. Having them rampage in the countryside for 700 years will lead to how many Connor scenarios? Lord only knows. That's 1 - ONE - untrained child mage killing off an entire village. How many people are there?

Actually not that many.  What happened in Redcliff Villiage is a tragedy to be sure, but a villiage that size would be fortunate to have perhaps 50 people in it abosolute tops and proabably only about half as many.  That's both in-game and actual medaeval lore.  Villiages and Hamlets were TINY compared with what we are used to today.

TheDas is not aa direct copy of europe. Not to mention that counting the number of people in the game to see the size of the village makes no sense. It's a game and not every citizen is there.
Heck, by that logic, Denerim is tinly, since we only see several parts of it 8in game). Other parts don't exist.

and you're also forgetting that with the army of corpses it had, the abomination might not want to stop. What's stopping it to go to the next village? And the ext? And the next?

Also the entire Conner situation could not have occured if Isolde had not decided (with justification I might add) that life in the circle tower was too horrible for child to undergo....and it would not have occured if Isolde (because of Chantry propoganda) hadn't come to the conclusion that all magic and all mages were sinful and evil beings.  THIS is what gave Loghain the opening to insert an incomptant apostate (Jowan) to poison Arl Eamon while denying at the same time the support Conner needed to understand that dealing with Demons never ends well.  A COMPETANT Mage tutor that Conner could trust could have probably ended the situation before it even started.

Trying to use the guilt chain argument against me is pontless. Such arguments almost always are. I can simply go one more step down the chain and put the blame there...we can go on like that forever.

The guilt dillema is no dillema at all - the one to blame is always the last one in the chain. The final decision before the act. In this case, Isolde.

And no, you have no proof what would have happened if things were different. A tutor cannot stop someone from being possesed. And since hte demon came, it's clear it was attracted to connor either way. What, you think that it would ignore Connor ishte Chantry didn't exist? That it couldn't entice him with something? Nah..

And lastly Isolde didn't want to let her son go. It's as simple as that. It wasn't about the "horrible" life in the cirlce. It's about him being taken away.

Uldred, a trained mage, wreakks havocc, killing mages and templars alike, teraing the veil and brining more abominations in. Now what if he did that in the middle fo a town?

A single warrior can completely destroy an entire mountain villiage (Haven).  Your point?

Debunked. Completely, utterly and undeniably. Gameplay mechanics are worth jack s*** in discussions.
Never bring this up again.

That's mighty bloody chickenfeed...but obviously mages aren't considered human being to you so it doesn't matter.  *I* do consider them human beings so let's try to put some rough numbers on this.  17 towers in 700 years (possibly 18 if you include the Fereldan tower) works out to one tower lost every 41 years.  If you use the 18 number (which we probably should) it works out to a bit more than one tower every 39 years.  Based on the game information and the like, we can guess that each tower probably holds upwards of 100 mages.  I will use 100 as a (low) estimate.  Then there are the templars and support staff which likely doubles this.

That means each time a tower is annuled you are slaughtering approximately 200 people which works out to almost 5 people per year and this is totally ignoring all the lesser instances where mages (and nonmages) were killed that didn't merit a full annulment of the circle so the already bad number is actually higher than this.

There is no way that this is better than what happened before.  That is the REAL math talking.

Dont' make me laugh. 5 poepel per year..

And how many abomination have we met in Ferelden during the game? A dozen? (a VERY low esitmate) Within a year! How many people can a dozen abominations kill witin a year? Guess...but it's a LOT more than 5.
And that's only in ONE kingdom!!!!!


Your math sucks..:lol::lol:

[Il Divo]

Whoa, there is aLOT of tension in this house...

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

atheelogos wrote...
Mages beaten into submission? Why the assume they will lose?

Quite simply..99% of non-mages don't trust them and prefer to see them in the towers. And mages are already a very small minority, with a large part of them being content with their current position.

That means nothing if magi can control people through bloodmagic. or create rifts into the fade which basically allows the magi to win a war by attrition because demons are always eager to step into the mortal world.99% means nothing if you have an inexhaustible supply of demons to do your bidding

Modifié par DKJaigen, 21 janvier 2011 - 11:23 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Huntress wrote...

Do you even understand why the connor problem begging? The mother didn't want to let him go/lose him forever because of the chantry stupid rule of not allowing mages to live with their family, the moment the chantry new about connor he was gonna be TAKEN agaisnt the mother will. Now tell me if that is not a cruel religion?

There's nothing stupid about that rule.
There's a very good reason why that rule exist...and it's not because the Chantry wants to make kiddies cry.

Harsh, yes. Stupid? no.

Magic have been in thedas for more than 700 years before the tavinter imperium, before Andraste was born, magic have been in thedas since The first races started walking about. Up to now the elves and dwaver are the oldest of the races and they  didn't need any templar to watch over anyone,  thats why the chantry got rid of the Dales, they couldn't control dalish mages.
They couldn't conver the dalish to the maker.  What this tells me is The chantry is just a ruthless organization and should be stoped before another exalted march start, this time is going to be the dwarves and I will tell you, dwarves are not afraid of magic.

aha...yees...fascinating..

Now, if you could actually present some proof that might actually be worth something.

We got no proof how things were done before. We got no proof what life was like before (except DG's quote that is was a far more dangeroud place).
You got no proof on the Chantry's motivations (that's just your speculation).

So...you got nothin'.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Condescending?  You can see it that way.  The way I see it whenever anything to do with a mage turning into an abomination or getting possessed gets brought up I see no rebuttle or explanation of the incident other than 'it was the chantries fault or the templars fault!' 

You mean when it's addressed that the times we read about it, it happens as a direct result of the templars and the Chantry?

Blame-chain. I move one chain below.
Mages are to blame.

[IanPolaris]

You make this too easy....

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TheDas is not aa direct copy of europe. Not to mention that counting the number of people in the game to see the size of the village makes no sense. It's a game and not every citizen is there.
Heck, by that logic, Denerim is tinly, since we only see several parts of it 8in game). Other parts don't exist.

and you're also forgetting that with the army of corpses it had, the abomination might not want to stop. What's stopping it to go to the next village? And the ext? And the next?
[/quote]

It still takes time for even walking corpses to travel, and my numbers for Redcliff villiage are consistant with both the lore and ingame experience (and those corpses were also part of the castle staff too lest you forget).  You have an extremely rare conflux of:

1.  The local templars are dealing with a circle uprising.
2.  A self-interested noblewoman has hid what her son was for far too long and got grossly inferior training for him...and then hid the problem when it broke open.
3.  The country is embroiled in a civil war which means that the standing levies that normally could deal with this sutation aren't available (in fact Bann Teagan tells you as much)

In short, the entire Redcliff situation is ABNORMAL and thus can not be used to defend the circle system.  By contrast the Felspar ring quest you get from the Mage's Collective is far more normal.  You have one apprentice dabbling in arts he should not, and his master gets the word out in time.  The master dies, but the problem is very swiftly contained.

This is the only case of dealing with an abomination that wasn't directly caused by the Chantry's own policies! And I might add it was handled correctly and swiftly and thus sucessfully.

[quote]
[quote]
Also the entire Conner situation could not have occured if Isolde had not decided (with justification I might add) that life in the circle tower was too horrible for child to undergo....and it would not have occured if Isolde (because of Chantry propoganda) hadn't come to the conclusion that all magic and all mages were sinful and evil beings.  THIS is what gave Loghain the opening to insert an incomptant apostate (Jowan) to poison Arl Eamon while denying at the same time the support Conner needed to understand that dealing with Demons never ends well.  A COMPETANT Mage tutor that Conner could trust could have probably ended the situation before it even started.[/quote]

Trying to use the guilt chain argument against me is pontless. Such arguments almost always are. I can simply go one more step down the chain and put the blame there...we can go on like that forever.
[/quote]

Ignoring an argument doesn'tmake it go away.  No one is saying that Arlessa Isolde doesn't bear primary responsibility.  However, it was the circle's own policies that enabled those bad decisions to be made.  That's the point.

In addition the entire Redcliff situation is ABNORMAL.  You can't justify a rule from the exceptions.  Rather you adjust the rules as necessary to deal with the exceptions as they happen.

[quote]
The guilt dillema is no dillema at all - the one to blame is always the last one in the chain. The final decision before the act. In this case, Isolde.
[/quote]

See above.


[quote]
And no, you have no proof what would have happened if things were different. A tutor cannot stop someone from being possesed. And since hte demon came, it's clear it was attracted to connor either way. What, you think that it would ignore Connor ishte Chantry didn't exist? That it couldn't entice him with something? Nah..
[/quote]

Conner got possessed from ignornance and a competant tutor most assuredly could have done something about that!  Moreover that same tutor could have either killed the abomination right away, or warned everyone about the danger and gotten help long before it became a crises and as Bann Teagan himself says, normally such help would be within a day's ride away!

[quote]
And lastly Isolde didn't want to let her son go. It's as simple as that. It wasn't about the "horrible" life in the cirlce. It's about him being taken away.
[/quote]

Actually she says pretty much exactly that and thinks that all mages are evil sinful people....more chantry programming.


[quote]
[quote]
[quote]
Uldred, a trained mage, wreakks havocc, killing mages and templars alike, teraing the veil and brining more abominations in. Now what if he did that in the middle fo a town?
[/quote]

A single warrior can completely destroy an entire mountain villiage (Haven).  Your point?[/quote]

Debunked. Completely, utterly and undeniably. Gameplay mechanics are worth jack s*** in discussions.
Never bring this up again.
[/quote]

No.  There are many reported instances of armored knights going into small villiages in the holy land (esp Hospitalars) and slaughtering them to a man.  A villiage of untrained peasents is no match against a trained and armored knight unless the villiagers get very, very lucky or just happen to have trained warriors of their own (very unlikely).

Gameplay mechanics have jack and fecal matter to do with it.  Read more history.

[quote]
[quote]
That's mighty bloody chickenfeed...but obviously mages aren't considered human being to you so it doesn't matter.  *I* do consider them human beings so let's try to put some rough numbers on this.  17 towers in 700 years (possibly 18 if you include the Fereldan tower) works out to one tower lost every 41 years.  If you use the 18 number (which we probably should) it works out to a bit more than one tower every 39 years.  Based on the game information and the like, we can guess that each tower probably holds upwards of 100 mages.  I will use 100 as a (low) estimate.  Then there are the templars and support staff which likely doubles this.

That means each time a tower is annuled you are slaughtering approximately 200 people which works out to almost 5 people per year and this is totally ignoring all the lesser instances where mages (and nonmages) were killed that didn't merit a full annulment of the circle so the already bad number is actually higher than this.

There is no way that this is better than what happened before.  That is the REAL math talking.[/quote]

Dont' make me laugh. 5 poepel per year..

And how many abomination have we met in Ferelden during the game? A dozen? (a VERY low esitmate) Within a year! How many people can a dozen abominations kill witin a year? Guess...but it's a LOT more than 5.
And that's only in ONE kingdom!!!!!


Your math sucks..:lol::lol:
[/quote]

Nope.  That's five per year on top of all the other abominations and magical problems that happen anyway.  You have shown absolutely no proof there are any fewer of them now then then, so the circle system murders five more people per year MINIMUM over and above what happened before.

-Polaris




[/quote]

Modifié par IanPolaris, 21 janvier 2011 - 11:36 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

You are arguing the false dichotomy though.  No one is saying that magic isn't dangerous or that mages and magic shouldn't be regulated.  No one is even saying that abominations aren't a bad thing.  What we are saying is that the Chantry is "viewing with alarm" a problem that has been grossly overstated to justify a system that wasn't even intended to protect anyone in the first place!  I don't say that, the chantry itself does! (See History of the Circle)  This is a regressive system that encourages angst and strife and all sorts of negative emotions (making mages trapped within even more attractive to demons) while the Chantry eggs the situation on by preaching hate towards magic to the mundanes.[/qutoe]

I dsagree.
I disagree that that problem has been overblown...and that the system is regressive.
We have pleny of examples to show jsut how dangerous abominations are. Feel free to ignore it tough...




[quote]
Avernus isn't an abomination.  The fact Avernus has lived for 200 years in a place where the veil is torn practicing bloodmagic should tell you right away that it's HARD for mages to become abominations.  You are ignoring this and the evidence that the chantry is deliberately hyping a system that doesn't seem to be needed (at least not for the protection of mundanes).[/quote]

Obvious LIES. Where does it say that it's hard for mages to become possesed? Nowhere. Absolutely nowhere.


[quote]
1.  Magic should be regulated by the crown with trusted (and you can
determine good and bad mages just as you can with any other human or
elf) mages having a large (and perhaps controlling) say as to what the
specific regulations are.
2.  Mages should live along side other
members of society and have a stake in that society all while being
carefully monitered by magical police (which would include a combination
of trusted bonded mages and templar-like warriors trained in how to
work with and against magic).
3.  Magical police should be
established to handle magical crimes and problems (see above)  Mages
should have a prominent voice in how this force works, runs, and
operates.[/quote]


Given that we know a single abomination can take out a whole squad of templars, and given that you want to allow mages to live among the popluace, wherever they want - how exactly do you invision this police to work?

You'd need a hole squad for every mage, spread around the whole country. Massive manpower, all have to be paid and fed. Large expenditure, logistical nightmare. And no guarantee that that single squad will stop an abomination for tearing apart half the city.

You could go for a localized force in every village (lik a police station) but since they're not at the mages side, the response time to an abomination event would be slow, and hence a lot of damage could be done.

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
There's nothing stupid about that rule.
There's a very good reason why that rule exist...and it's not because the Chantry wants to make kiddies cry.

Harsh, yes. Stupid? no.

Unnecessary yes, even by the Chantry's own history.

Magic have been in thedas for more than 700 years before the tavinter imperium, before Andraste was born, magic have been in thedas since The first races started walking about. Up to now the elves and dwaver are the oldest of the races and they  didn't need any templar to watch over anyone,  thats why the chantry got rid of the Dales, they couldn't control dalish mages.
They couldn't conver the dalish to the maker.  What this tells me is The chantry is just a ruthless organization and should be stoped before another exalted march start, this time is going to be the dwarves and I will tell you, dwarves are not afraid of magic.

aha...yees...fascinating..

Now, if you could actually present some proof that might actually be worth something.

We got no proof how things were done before. We got no proof what life was like before (except DG's quote that is was a far more dangeroud place).
You got no proof on the Chantry's motivations (that's just your speculation).

So...you got nothin'.

You need to show me that a system that you admit to be dehumanizing, that you know is going to foster resistance and rebellion is BETTER than what on before.

To quote you:  You got nothing.

Not even the chantry locked away mages to protect anybody...even according to the Chantry's own history.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 21 janvier 2011 - 11:39 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

You are making the same error then only on a much larger scale.  If we can not determine the rate of abominations then you have absolutely no basis in fact for why the circle system is needed.  NONE![/quote]

Nope, I'm saying you made a error with calculating only annulments. The actual number of abominations would be MUCH HIGHER.

In other words, your math was off.



[quote]
You have no idea how mages were handeld there, so they are both invalid as arguments.
[/quote]

I don't have to.  I know they were handled and I know that mages weren't imprisoned, and they seemed to have none of the enhanced abomination issues the circle does.   That makes them valid counter examples.[/quote]

Yes you do.
You can hardly call them better systems if hunderds dies each year at the hands of abomniations.




[quote]
Actually IRL there are incidents of armored knights doing just that to Saracen villiages during the crusades, so yes he can.  Read more history.[/quote]

Maybe you should be the one reading it.

No warrior can match the destructive potential of a mage. This is full. This is not debatable.
In the foodchain:

abomination >>>>> mage >>>>> warrior

FACT.

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I dsagree.
I disagree that that problem has been overblown...and that the system is regressive.
We have pleny of examples to show jsut how dangerous abominations are. Feel free to ignore it tough...

The system is obviously regressive.  Even you admit that it creates hatred and rebellion.  The question is if the benefits outweigh this.  I think that the actual history of the game AND the fact that many societies function quite well without this system with mages living side by side with mundanes is the clearest evidence it's not.  That's especially true since not even the chantry isolated mages to protect anyone.  That's a simple fact.

Avernus isn't an abomination.  The fact Avernus has lived for 200 years in a place where the veil is torn practicing bloodmagic should tell you right away that it's HARD for mages to become abominations.  You are ignoring this and the evidence that the chantry is deliberately hyping a system that doesn't seem to be needed (at least not for the protection of mundanes).

Obvious LIES. Where does it say that it's hard for mages to become possesed? Nowhere. Absolutely nowhere.

If it were easy, then you should see and hear about all sorts of abominations roaming the Brecilian forest given all the Dalish Tribes and their mages that wander through there especially given the veil is thin there.  In fact you see none.  At. All.  You see plenty of other sorts of possession there (as you'd expect) but not abominations.

Likewise if the risk were that high than surely Avernus openly using blood magic and living in an area that's akin to a toxic waste dump when it comes to demons (and fighting demons nearly every day) should have become possessed as some time during the 200 years.

Nope.

Mouse explains it to you during your harrowing.  To become an abomination you have to want to let the demon in.  That's extremely rare just from preservation instinct alone.  This is why demons have to trick people and even then only when that mage is at their absolute most vunerable.  In the case of the circle tower (also a place where the veil is thin), only Uldred became a spontaneous abomoniation and only because he bit off more demon than he could chew.  The rest had to be forced with a painful and difficult bloodmagic ritual (that apparently is very rare...we only see Uldred with it).

So yes, based on the lore and in game evidence, I would say that it IS very hard for even mages to become abominations.  It's not a lie.  At worst it's a mistaken interpretation (but I sure it's the correct one).

1.  Magic should be regulated by the crown with trusted (and you can
determine good and bad mages just as you can with any other human or
elf) mages having a large (and perhaps controlling) say as to what the
specific regulations are.
2.  Mages should live along side other
members of society and have a stake in that society all while being
carefully monitered by magical police (which would include a combination
of trusted bonded mages and templar-like warriors trained in how to
work with and against magic).
3.  Magical police should be
established to handle magical crimes and problems (see above)  Mages
should have a prominent voice in how this force works, runs, and
operates.

Given that we know a single abomination can take out a whole squad of templars, and given that you want to allow mages to live among the popluace, wherever they want - how exactly do you invision this police to work?

Obviously mages would have to have sanctioned training, but outside of that, you are grossly overstating the dangers and frequency of abominations.  As for the nuts and bolts details, ask Keeper Lanaya for her input.  She would be open to that.

You'd need a hole squad for every mage, spread around the whole country. Massive manpower, all have to be paid and fed. Large expenditure, logistical nightmare. And no guarantee that that single squad will stop an abomination for tearing apart half the city.

Wrong.  It wasn't needed before, and there is no reason it would be needed now.  Just rapid response teams and good solid education.  You seem to think that any mage will become an abomination and a powerful one just from having an upset stomache.  That's simply not so especially if that mage has been correctly trained.

You could go for a localized force in every village (lik a police station) but since they're not at the mages side, the response time to an abomination event would be slow, and hence a lot of damage could be done.

The Chantry didn't think so 900 years ago or even about 700 years ago.

You are just using ex-post facto justifications to justify the unjustiable.

-Polaris