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[Huntress]

 [/quote]

Considering how Cullen can rule the Circle in fear (and apparently this isn't cause for him to be removed from his position of authority) as the new Knight-Commander or how, for a female mage, Cullen says the line: "I'm a templar and you're a mage- it is my duty to oppose all that you are," seems to speak volumes for how little of a say mages have over their own lives.

You can't ignore the story because it contradicts your argument. Game mechanics are Zathrian being labelled a blood mage or why the companions don't get sick with the darkspawn blood covering them. You can't re-write the story because it contradicts your argument completely. You're ignoring how abominations haven't devastated Thedas in the past and how they were dealt with effectively because it runs counter to your pro-Chantry proclamations.[/quote]

<3 And My warden is no mage.<3

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

That's fantasy, not realism. You keep treating mind control like a regular weapon. Again and again.

Repeat after me..slowly.. NO ONE CAN BE TRUSTED WITH IT. THERE IS NO TRUSTED CADRE. THERE IS NO LOYAL ARMY ON YOUR SIDE.

Bloodmagic (and thus mindcontrol magic) can not be suppressed!  It can't be supressed because you can not cut off the ability to dream and thus interact with fade spirits including demons.  That means that even if you could somehow find and destroy all bloodmagic lore in Thedas (effectively impossible anyway because pretty much every magical culture used at least some bloodmagic at some time), the demons would gleefully teach it anyway.

Given that you CAN NOT destroy this knowledge, then you need to find a way to deal with it, and control it.  Banning it solves nothing and does nothing except insure that the people you least want to have this sort of magic are the only ones that do.

That is why the Chantry's position on bloodmagic is terminally stupid (and I do mean terminally).

-Polaris

You cannot destroy the knowledge, you CAN destroy the users.

The Chantry position regarding it is the smartest position in the universe.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
If you can at any time turn into an abomination and slaughter your firends? Yes, I'd say it is your responsiblity to keep yourself locked away from the rest of the population.

You make it sound like it isn't a battle of wills, Lotion. If your accusation was always the case, why aren't all the Dalish abominations? Why weren't all the elves of the Dales or Arlathan then turned into abominations? Why isn't Haven overrrun with abominations? Why isn't Rivain merely ash and dust when their mages converge with spirits? You profess that the Chantry model is the best but it's clearly sparking a war between templars and mages that none of the other models have initiated. That speaks highly to the failure of the Chantry model for me.

ALL of them? Where do you get that from. Reductio Ad Absurdum is a poor way to debate...

so tell me, how do you know that persiaodly they don't get abominations in the Dales, Aralathan or wherever...abominatiosn that rampage around, kill poeple and have to be put down..


You don't know the number of abominations nor the death tolls. So don't speak of a "better" system.....heh...Better. Better for WHOM?

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...

We have Wynne's account of Anerin and the Templars were never punished for that.  We see that an unsupported accusation can make an apprentice tranquil with no hearing involved as long as the accuser is a Templar.....no accountability there either.  In fact Gregoire isn't accountable even to Irving as the story makes painfully clear in multiple cases.

Wrong. Extrapolations again. You have no idea what evidence Gregoir had..you have no idea how the chain of command goes and how are templars punished.

Theburden of proof is on you to show that they are because the game and lore DIRECTLY contradict you here.  Templars are not shown to be accountable for their actions in the field.  Not once.  The only case where a Templar (Cullen) is held accountable is after open murder of multiple apprentice mages and only then by other templars....and that's not real accountability in my book!

Bollcoks. Absenve of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Not to mention that templars in the field operate differnetly. There is no CIS. there are n ocammeras. The lead templar in hte field makes a decision. TI's friggin hard to prove a police officer in our society today does something wrong when there's no witnesses - are you saying that our police force sucks, that there is no accountability and police officers are all evil?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Huntress wrote...
For a demon to posses a mage, the mage have to say yes. Mages with strong will as  First-enchanter, Wynne, Anders, Survivers from the tower and Morrigan will no bent to any demon will. Other thing Wynne is possed by a spirit and is a good spirit, Wynne call it Faith.
Not one is sure if such a thing can happen but yet,The Warden-commander get to meet another good spirit call by Justice.

Warden mage get to meet another spirit in his/her howrroing and is called Valor.

Do demon get attacted by mages? YES, do the mage have to agree to it? of course. Does the demon care if is a child or a dead body? no way!

No. Demon can also posses a mage by force.

Not to mention that there is no way to test for "sufficient will".

[Huntress]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
If you can at any time turn into an abomination and slaughter your firends? Yes, I'd say it is your responsiblity to keep yourself locked away from the rest of the population.

You make it sound like it isn't a battle of wills, Lotion. If your accusation was always the case, why aren't all the Dalish abominations? Why weren't all the elves of the Dales or Arlathan then turned into abominations? Why isn't Haven overrrun with abominations? Why isn't Rivain merely ash and dust when their mages converge with spirits? You profess that the Chantry model is the best but it's clearly sparking a war between templars and mages that none of the other models have initiated. That speaks highly to the failure of the Chantry model for me.

ALL of them? Where do you get that from. Reductio Ad Absurdum is a poor way to debate...

so tell me, how do you know that persiaodly they don't get abominations in the Dales, Aralathan or wherever...abominatiosn that rampage around, kill poeple and have to be put down..


You don't know the number of abominations nor the death tolls. So don't speak of a "better" system.....heh...Better. Better for WHOM?

And you don't even know if in the dales there were any Abominations at all. The elves didn't care much about anything at that time, in fact they were so OLD and POWERFUL that time had no meaning for them, while they sleep Humans procreate as rodents, thats why the Dales fall, the elves were almost Inmortals, they'll probably were able to procreate by long passing years.

The humans destroy the dales BY the size of the armies, not by any demons. Well it seems to me the Humans are the demons.

[Heretical Sound]

IanPolaris wrote...

Edit PPPS:  As I said above, I will not address this or posts on this topic further.  You clearly are trying to derail the thread and I was foolish enough to respond to you in the first place.  I regard your motives as highly suspect.

There get's to a point where I stop caring. It's generally when ad hominems are thrown like so much metaphorical mud. Still observing your rather obvious attempts at evasion and inability to provide any relevant evidence for the point you are trying to make, was amusing. However from what I little I have seen, debating the central issue would only be an exercise in frustration.

Now as am I evidently a troll, a rather well informed one it must be said, allow me to depart by saying:

U mad bro?

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

If you can at any time turn into an abomination and slaughter your firends? Yes, I'd say it is your responsiblity to keep yourself locked away from the rest of the population.

You make it sound like it isn't a battle of wills, Lotion. If your accusation was always the case, why aren't all the Dalish abominations? Why weren't all the elves of the Dales or Arlathan then turned into abominations? Why isn't Haven overrrun with abominations? Why isn't Rivain merely ash and dust when their mages converge with spirits? You profess that the Chantry model is the best but it's clearly sparking a war between templars and mages that none of the other models have initiated. That speaks highly to the failure of the Chantry model for me.

ALL of them? Where do you get that from. Reductio Ad Absurdum is a poor way to debate...

Given that the ancient elves lived in Thedas for centuries before humans ever arrived, it's a fair point to address - if the abominations are so much a threat that the Chantry must imprison mages, then how were the elves able to be so prosperous for centuries without their existance? Why wasn't Tevinter overrun with abominations without the need for the Chantry or its templars? Even the reason that mages are imprisoned had absolutely nothing to do with protecting innocents from blood mages or abominations, so I don't see why you keep harping on the Chantry's model of imprisoning and killing mages as the only viable means for mages to exist.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

so tell me, how do you know that persiaodly they don't get abominations in the Dales, Aralathan or wherever...abominatiosn that rampage around, kill poeple and have to be put down..

 
Your claim is that the Chantry's model is the only viable means avaliable. Clearly, that isn't the case when there are alternatives, and IanPolaris has already proposed a sane means to regulate mages and prevent a possible rebellion for freedom like the one Uldred lead.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You don't know the number of abominations nor the death tolls. So don't speak of a "better" system.....heh...Better. Better for WHOM?

You speak of the Chantry as the only viable system, and that's simply not true, especially when their system is going to cause a war between the Templars and the Mages. And save the "heh"s for when you actually have a strong argument to make.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Huntress wrote...
For a demon to posses a mage, the mage have to say yes. Mages with strong will as  First-enchanter, Wynne, Anders, Survivers from the tower and Morrigan will no bent to any demon will. Other thing Wynne is possed by a spirit and is a good spirit, Wynne call it Faith.
Not one is sure if such a thing can happen but yet,The Warden-commander get to meet another good spirit call by Justice.

Warden mage get to meet another spirit in his/her howrroing and is called Valor.

Do demon get attacted by mages? YES, do the mage have to agree to it? of course. Does the demon care if is a child or a dead body? no way!

No. Demon can also posses a mage by force.

Not to mention that there is no way to test for "sufficient will".

Considering that there are mages who resist demons, and even the Warden can prove strong enough that even the Desire Demon of Connor's will willingly leave Connor and grant him knowledge in exchange for not killing her in her own domain, I think it's safe to say that there are mages with "sufficient will."

Huntress wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ALL of them? Where do you get that from. Reductio Ad Absurdum is a poor way to debate...

so tell me, how do you know that persiaodly they don't get abominations in the Dales, Aralathan or wherever...abominatiosn that rampage around, kill poeple and have to be put down..

You don't know the number of abominations nor the death tolls. So don't speak of a "better" system.....heh...Better. Better for WHOM?

And you don't even know if in the dales there were any Abominations at all. The elves didn't care much about anything at that time, in fact they were so OLD and POWERFUL that time had no meaning for them, while they sleep Humans procreate as rodents, thats why the Dales fall, the elves were almost Inmortals, they'll probably were able to procreate by long passing years.

The humans destroy the dales BY the size of the armies, not by any demons. Well it seems to me the Humans are the demons.

Not to mention how the surviving elves were given the option of living in ghettos (and their religion being illegal) or being homeless. According to the Dalish codex (from the Dalish Warden) the Chantry sent in templars when they kicked out the missionaries. Certainly not the same as the codex (from the Orlesian perspective) that the Warden receives otherwise.

Huntress does bring up an interesting and valid point: you don't need magic to destroy nations or cause deaths. The Chantry has done a more effective job at destroying nations and killing than any mage, blood mage, or even abomination in history. Divine Ambrosia II nearly declared an Exalted March on her own cathedral, the Exalted March against the Dales is questionable at best, and their Exalted March against the Qunari lead to the armies murdering entire towns of people who converted to the Qun. No mage or abomination is as dangerous as the Andrastian Chantry.

Heretical Sound wrote...

Now as am I evidently a troll, a rather well informed one it must be said, allow me to depart by saying:

U mad bro?

Thank you for letting the rest of us get back to the debate over mages.

[EmperorSahlertz]

None of us claims that the Chantry method is the only available method, for instance the Qunari also have a very effective way of regulating magic. We are saying that YOU havn't shown any example of another system that doesn't suppres mages in any way. You are all quick to show different societies that just aren't feasible and/or lacks evidence of how they actually handle the issue of magic.

[Huntress]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

None of us claims that the Chantry method is the only available method, for instance the Qunari also have a very effective way of regulating magic. We are saying that YOU havn't shown any example of another system that doesn't suppres mages in any way. You are all quick to show different societies that just aren't feasible and/or lacks evidence of how they actually handle the issue of magic.

They probably handle by teaching their own people about it, mage or no. Thats why they lived for so long, thats why they didn't want/need the Chantry.
Not like the Chantry is doing, teaching fear, forcing young boys to take lyrium as a droge and washing their brains. Forcing mages in a tower, some of them beliving there were born cursed.
The more We want to explain, the more you want proff, there is only one proff, Elves had magic, they weren't over run by demons, there weren't over run by malificars, they were over run by the Andrastian-chantry belivers. You want demons? Chantry has them all.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well... Technically the Artlathan Elves were overrun by Maleficar... Just not their own.... But all of that is irrelevant. You cannot use Arlathan, the Dales, Haven and the Dalish as examples of societies where they handle magic "better" than the Chantry, because of the simple fact that you have no proof to back up that claim. If you are aware, the rest of us never denied that those societies may have been better, we are just asking for proof, before we make such claims.
Where is the proof that Arlathan Elves didn't have problems with Abominations and didn't regulate magic extensively? Where is the proof of the same in the Dales and Haven? We do not ask for much. But since you can't provide proof and knows it makes your entire argument null, you IGNORE the fact that you can't back up your claims, and go right back to the only thing you have managed to do, bash the Chantry with baseless acusations.

So before you bash the Chantry again, can you please dig up a proof that show definitively that there is a more effective way of regulating magic that doesn't involve some form of suppresion?

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 22 janvier 2011 - 04:54 .

[Huntress]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well... Technically the Artlathan Elves were overrun by Maleficar... Just not their own.... But all of that is irrelevant. You cannot use Arlathan, the Dales, Haven and the Dalish as examples of societies where they handle magic "better" than the Chantry, because of the simple fact that you have no proof to back up that claim. If you are aware, the rest of us never denied that those societies may have been better, we are just asking for proof, before we make such claims.
Where is the proof that Arlathan Elves didn't have problems with Abominations and didn't regulate magic extensively? Where is the proof of the same in the Dales and Haven? We do not ask for much. But since you can't provide proof and knows it makes your entire argument null, you IGNORE the fact that you can't back up your claims, and go right back to the only thing you have managed to do, bash the Chantry with baseless acusations.

So before you bash the Chantry again, can you please dig up a proof that show definitively that there is a more effective way of regulating magic that doesn't involve some form of suppresion?

Where is your proff that they even had the need to regulate mages? You gave us a proff that Dalish were over run by demons/ Dalish-Malificars then, just then we will explore if indeed the chantry or the quan are a better choice. Until then I will fight for the dalish right, left and center.

There is NOTHING left for anyone to know about the Dalish of old because, the Chantry destroyed everything about them. And yet the proff we find is, they had many mages, they lived for a very long time, they were almost inmortal, they had a great societies, they ( Dalish) didn't need no maker, no chantry, no templars.


Just came to me, probably the demons/malificar fever started after the Dalish tought humans magic..

Modifié par Huntress, 22 janvier 2011 - 05:20 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
ALL of them? Where do you get that from. Reductio Ad Absurdum is a poor way to debate... [/quote]

Given that the ancient elves lived in Thedas for centuries before humans ever arrived, it's a fair point to address - if the abominations are so much a threat that the Chantry must imprison mages, then how were the elves able to be so prosperous for centuries without their existance? Why wasn't Tevinter overrun with abominations without the need for the Chantry or its templars? Even the reason that mages are imprisoned had absolutely nothing to do with protecting innocents from blood mages or abominations, so I don't see why you keep harping on the Chantry's model of imprisoning and killing mages as the only viable means for mages to exist.[/quote]


And as I given examples bofore, humantiy and nations can prosper despite horrific disasters and large losses of life. Doesn't mean you wouldn't want to stop those disaster, so you could prosper EVEN MORE.

Given that we know practicly zilch about the ancient elves, their prosperity and power are rather questionable (after all, weren't they destroyed by the Tevinter imperium?)


And yes.
The Chantry model isn't the only one. But I'd argue it's the safest one (for magges and non-mages alike).

Mages are walking bombs. That is the horrible reality of TheDas.


[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You don't know the number of abominations nor the death tolls. So don't speak of a "better" system.....heh...Better. Better for WHOM? [/quote]

You speak of the Chantry as the only viable system, and that's simply not true, especially when their system is going to cause a war between the Templars and the Mages. And save the "heh"s for when you actually have a strong argument to make.[/quote]

By that logic, you should never say "heh".



[quote]
No. Demon can also posses a mage by force.

Not to mention that there is no way to test for "sufficient will". [/quote]

Considering that there are mages who resist demons, and even the Warden can prove strong enough that even the Desire Demon of Connor's will willingly leave Connor and grant him knowledge in exchange for not killing her in her own domain, I think it's safe to say that there are mages with "sufficient will."[/quote]

Possibly. But can you tell who they are? Can you tell if their vigilance and strength will hold?
Everyone has bad days after all.



[quote]
Huntress does bring up an interesting and valid point: you don't need magic to destroy nations or cause deaths. The Chantry has done a more effective job at destroying nations and killing than any mage, blood mage, or even abomination in history. Divine Ambrosia II nearly declared an Exalted March on her own cathedral, the Exalted March against the Dales is questionable at best, and their Exalted March against the Qunari lead to the armies murdering entire towns of people who converted to the Qun. No mage or abomination is as dangerous as the Andrastian Chantry.[/quote]

This is irrelevant to the discussion...and might I add, a completely flawed comparison. But I know you like your "Chantry is Evil" speech.

As I said before, one cannot compare and institution to an individual...not to mention that the institution in this case will not act against it's own will..Like mages can.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Huntress wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

None of us claims that the Chantry method is the only available method, for instance the Qunari also have a very effective way of regulating magic. We are saying that YOU havn't shown any example of another system that doesn't suppres mages in any way. You are all quick to show different societies that just aren't feasible and/or lacks evidence of how they actually handle the issue of magic.

They probably handle by teaching their own people about it, mage or no. Thats why they lived for so long, thats why they didn't want/need the Chantry.

"Probably" is not evidence.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Huntress wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well... Technically the Artlathan Elves were overrun by Maleficar... Just not their own.... But all of that is irrelevant. You cannot use Arlathan, the Dales, Haven and the Dalish as examples of societies where they handle magic "better" than the Chantry, because of the simple fact that you have no proof to back up that claim. If you are aware, the rest of us never denied that those societies may have been better, we are just asking for proof, before we make such claims.
Where is the proof that Arlathan Elves didn't have problems with Abominations and didn't regulate magic extensively? Where is the proof of the same in the Dales and Haven? We do not ask for much. But since you can't provide proof and knows it makes your entire argument null, you IGNORE the fact that you can't back up your claims, and go right back to the only thing you have managed to do, bash the Chantry with baseless acusations.

So before you bash the Chantry again, can you please dig up a proof that show definitively that there is a more effective way of regulating magic that doesn't involve some form of suppresion?

Where is your proff that they even had the need to regulate mages? You gave us a proff that Dalish were over run by demons/ Dalish-Malificars then, just then we will explore if indeed the chantry or the quan are a better choice. Until then I will fight for the dalish right, left and center.

There is NOTHING left for anyone to know about the Dalish of old because, the Chantry destroyed everything about them. And yet the proff we find is, they had many mages, they lived for a very long time, they were almost inmortal, they had a great societies, they ( Dalish) didn't need no maker, no chantry, no templars.


Just came to me, probably the demons/malificar fever started after the Dalish tought humans magic..

I don't have any. Don't you get it? Because I lack any kind of evidence, I don't use them as examples to back up my claims. All I do, is ask people who actually do use them, to provide proof of their claims. Which they repeatedly refuse or ignore to do.

[Huntress]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Huntress wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well... Technically the Artlathan Elves were overrun by Maleficar... Just not their own.... But all of that is irrelevant. You cannot use Arlathan, the Dales, Haven and the Dalish as examples of societies where they handle magic "better" than the Chantry, because of the simple fact that you have no proof to back up that claim. If you are aware, the rest of us never denied that those societies may have been better, we are just asking for proof, before we make such claims.
Where is the proof that Arlathan Elves didn't have problems with Abominations and didn't regulate magic extensively? Where is the proof of the same in the Dales and Haven? We do not ask for much. But since you can't provide proof and knows it makes your entire argument null, you IGNORE the fact that you can't back up your claims, and go right back to the only thing you have managed to do, bash the Chantry with baseless acusations.

So before you bash the Chantry again, can you please dig up a proof that show definitively that there is a more effective way of regulating magic that doesn't involve some form of suppresion?

Where is your proff that they even had the need to regulate mages? You gave us a proff that Dalish were over run by demons/ Dalish-Malificars then, just then we will explore if indeed the chantry or the quan are a better choice. Until then I will fight for the dalish right, left and center.

There is NOTHING left for anyone to know about the Dalish of old because, the Chantry destroyed everything about them. And yet the proff we find is, they had many mages, they lived for a very long time, they were almost inmortal, they had a great societies, they ( Dalish) didn't need no maker, no chantry, no templars.


Just came to me, probably the demons/malificar fever started after the Dalish tought humans magic..

I don't have any. Don't you get it? Because I lack any kind of evidence, I don't use them as examples to back up my claims. All I do, is ask people who actually do use them, to provide proof of their claims. Which they repeatedly refuse or ignore to do.

So you lack evidence to show a Dalish need  to regulate mages, and ask for proff?
The only proff we have is: The Dalish new magic, Lived for a very long time, they were consider almost as inmortal, they slept for LONG periods of times.
If and I mean IF they had problems with demons/ Dalish-malificars, wouldn't they have become demons while they were sleep? What about if they had malificars? wouldnt they have been used as a portal* for demons? I mean portals by been murder while sleeping*.  Probably  Human-Mages is the cause of so many horrors and so much death.

Should we get rid of the Humans and see if they are indeed the cause?

Modifié par Huntress, 22 janvier 2011 - 06:21 .

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

None of us claims that the Chantry method is the only available method, for instance the Qunari also have a very effective way of regulating magic. We are saying that YOU havn't shown any example of another system that doesn't suppres mages in any way. You are all quick to show different societies that just aren't feasible and/or lacks evidence of how they actually handle the issue of magic.

And I never said that. I pointed out how Lotion Soronnar claimed that the Chantry's model was the safest despite how he acknowledged that he thinks we don't have sufficient information to judge the other models. If we don't know enough about the other models, then how can the Chantry's model be the safest, especially when we can read the codex and see that mages and non-mages weren't segregated as a means of protection, but because of a non-violent protest in a cathedral?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well... Technically the Artlathan Elves were overrun by Maleficar... Just not their own.... But all of that is irrelevant. You cannot use Arlathan, the Dales, Haven and the Dalish as examples of societies where they handle magic "better" than the Chantry, because of the simple fact that you have no proof to back up that claim. If you are aware, the rest of us never denied that those societies may have been better, we are just asking for proof, before we make such claims.

No one is saying better, people are presenting "alternatives" that have shown to work by the mere fact that the people are living, mages and non-mages are living and fighting side by side, and there aren't any abominations around.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Where is the proof that Arlathan Elves didn't have problems with Abominations and didn't regulate magic extensively? Where is the proof of the same in the Dales and Haven? We do not ask for much. But since you can't provide proof and knows it makes your entire argument null, you IGNORE the fact that you can't back up your claims, and go right back to the only thing you have managed to do, bash the Chantry with baseless acusations.

So before you bash the Chantry again, can you please dig up a proof that show definitively that there is a more effective way of regulating magic that doesn't involve some form of suppresion?

You're intentionally misdirecting the focus of the discussion with false claims. Nobody claimed Arlathan or the Dales didn't have issues with abominations, but clearly abominations didn't take over either nation and neither society resorted to imprisoning people because of how they're born. People are arguing against the subjegation of mages.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Given that the ancient elves lived in Thedas for centuries before humans ever arrived, it's a fair point to address - if the abominations are so much a threat that the Chantry must imprison mages, then how were the elves able to be so prosperous for centuries without their existance? Why wasn't Tevinter overrun with abominations without the need for the Chantry or its templars? Even the reason that mages are imprisoned had absolutely nothing to do with protecting innocents from blood mages or abominations, so I don't see why you keep harping on the Chantry's model of imprisoning and killing mages as the only viable means for mages to exist.

And as I given examples bofore, humantiy and nations can prosper despite horrific disasters and large losses of life. Doesn't mean you wouldn't want to stop those disaster, so you could prosper EVEN MORE.

Given that we know practicly zilch about the ancient elves, their prosperity and power are rather questionable (after all, weren't they destroyed by the Tevinter imperium?)

So if abominations were as prevelant and as plentiful as you claim, why isn't Thedas overrun with abominations? How could Thedas be a civilization of elves, humans, and dwarves if this threat was so great that only the current templars can beat it back during the times before the Order of the Templars?

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And yes.
The Chantry model isn't the only one. But I'd argue it's the safest one (for magges and non-mages alike).

Mages are walking bombs. That is the horrible reality of TheDas.

You argue it's the safest one, but you also argue that we don't know enough about other cultures to compare, so how can it be the safest (in your opinion) if you admit to knowing of no other alternative?

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

By that logic, you should never say "heh".

Coming from someone who thinks that calling an opponent "stupid" is the best retort he can come up with in the face of an opposing viewpoint? You're going to have to excuse me if I'm not terribly impressed with any of the arguments you've presented so far.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Possibly. But can you tell who they are? Can you tell if their vigilance and strength will hold?
Everyone has bad days after all.

And anyone can be possessed.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

This is irrelevant to the discussion...and might I add, a completely flawed comparison. But I know you like your "Chantry is Evil" speech.

You mean my "mages shouldn't be imprisoned for being mages" speech that you hate because you're pro-Chantry? Given how it looks like they'll be a war between the Templars and the Mages I doubt that the Chantry imprisoning and dehumanizing people amounted to much good.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

As I said before, one cannot compare and institution to an individual...not to mention that the institution in this case will not act against it's own will..Like mages can.

From the codex entires we've read, the Chantry has killed more people in the name of Exalted Marches more than any mage, blood mage, or abomination we've heard about, so I'd be more concerned with the sanity of the person who is the Divine and call an Exalted March on a whim than I would be about any mage - mages can't destroy an entire nation with a devoted army of armored and armored religious followers who obey their every command, after all.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 22 janvier 2011 - 07:11 .

[Addai]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And there is no burden oof proof on me to proove that Templars are being held accountable. All the examples you just stated are wrong. The story Wynne tells us is not the full story. We don't know what happened when the Templars caught Aneirin. If Aneirin resisted capture, the Templars are ALLOWED to kill him, and thus shouldn't be held accountable for doing their duty (wether or not you agree with their duty is irrelevant). Both Irving and Greagoir decide who gets to be Harrowed and who becomes Tranquil, what Irving didn't have a say in is if Jowan was a Blood Mage or not. And again, Greagoir won't be held responsible here, because he DID NO WRONG. He fulfills his duty. And you have no flying f*** of an idea of how much proof Greagoir has gathered against Jowan. For all we know Greagoir was the eye-witness, but he didn't act sooner because he wanted to give Jowan the benefit of the doubt. Again, YOU DON'T KNOW, because we do not get the full story.

I thought the whole point is that it doesn't matter if templars are "just doing their duty," the system itself is oppressive and oriented towards keeping the Chantry in power.

Even if the concentration camp guard is conscientious in following orders, that doesn't absolve him.

Modifié par Addai67, 22 janvier 2011 - 06:50 .

[Addai]

IanPolaris wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
Legionnaire Scout Skill: Blessing of the Ancestors: Long days among the veins of unrefined lyrium in the Deep Roads have given the legionaire the ability to resist magic.

Makes absolutely no sense for a non-dwarf to possess this skill if we accept that definition as canon. That long near unrefined lyrium would not do good things for the health.

Yet in the game a non-dwarf can have this ability and there is nothing in the game lore that explicitly contradicts it...so it's one (of many) available tools.

Fact is even sword and shield and TH fighters get techniques that aid greatly against magic (shield pummel and pommel strike respectively).

Is magic dangerous and powerful?  Yes.  Can magical abominations be contained by non-magical (and non-templar) means?

Yes.

The dwarves are a prime example being on the wrong end of a magical power imbalance for centuries yet still managing to face the darkspawn on tactically very even terms (the dwarves are losing for a multitude of other reasons but not because of their martial prowess against the darkspawn).

-Polaris

I may have missed where someone pointed this out, but anyone who can afford enchanted armors and weapons can gain spell resistance, there being Dweomer runes that offer this.  That's how I handwave a non-dwarven Legion Scout having resistance to magic.

[Kakistos_]

As stated before, the fact that the Tevinter Imperium, Arlathan, the Dales, Haven and The Dalish are all societies that lived or still live in cohesion with mages speaks for itself. The Chantry's chants about Abominations are little more than propaganda. They are dangerous but not as much so as they would have the world believe.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Huntress wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

None of us claims that the Chantry method is the only available method, for instance the Qunari also have a very effective way of regulating magic. We are saying that YOU havn't shown any example of another system that doesn't suppres mages in any way. You are all quick to show different societies that just aren't feasible and/or lacks evidence of how they actually handle the issue of magic.

They probably handle by teaching their own people about it, mage or no. Thats why they lived for so long, thats why they didn't want/need the Chantry.

"Probably" is not evidence.

Neither is claiming that the Chantry is the best option when you say that we know of no others. Considering that the mages were living among non-mages and the policy of segregation happened as a direct result of mages protesting against the Chantry to placate a Divine willing to declare an Exalted March on her own cathedral, there is no evidence that the current system of imprisoning mages (or enslaving them, depending on who you ask) is necessary.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Huntress wrote...
Just came to me, probably the demons/malificar fever started after the Dalish tought humans magic..

I don't have any. Don't you get it? Because I lack any kind of evidence, I don't use them as examples to back up my claims. All I do, is ask people who actually do use them, to provide proof of their claims. Which they repeatedly refuse or ignore to do.

IanPolaris has addressed this issue repeatedly. Let's focus on the Chantry and the mages then. In Awakening, Wynne reveals there's a meeting in Cumberland concerning whether the mages should try to emancipate all the Circles from the Chantry - basically, a war with the Chantry over independence. Time and again, we've seen and read how mages will risk their very lives to be free, and the Chantry has denied them the right to choose their own fate, instead imprisoning and dehumanizing them. Hawke may have the opportunity to choose a side in the war between the Templars and the Mages. Considering how likely it is that the Chantry and the mages are going to have a war in DA2, it seems like the main thing that the Andrastian Chantry has accomplished is to inspire mages to fight for their freedom against their oppressors.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And as I given examples bofore, humantiy and nations can prosper despite horrific disasters and large losses of life. Doesn't mean you wouldn't want to stop those disaster, so you could prosper EVEN MORE.

Given that we know practicly zilch about the ancient elves, their prosperity and power are rather questionable (after all, weren't they destroyed by the Tevinter imperium?)

So if abominations were as prevelant and as plentiful as you claim, why isn't Thedas overrun with abominations? How could Thedas be a civilization of elves, humans, and dwarves if this threat was so great that only the current templars can beat it back during the times before the Order of the Templars?

Becaue you obviously dont' read..The queation you asked was already answred.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And yes.
The Chantry model isn't the only one. But I'd argue it's the safest one (for magges and non-mages alike).

Mages are walking bombs. That is the horrible reality of TheDas.

You argue it's the safest one, but you also argue that we don't know enough about other cultures to compare, so how can it be the safest (in your opinion) if you admit to knowing of no other alternative?

Isn't it obvious? Of all the known models we have information on, it is the safest one.

And lacking knowledge of any method to prevent abominations, by all logic (mages = abomination, mages under lock = abominations uder lock) is is the safest one...aside from the mass tranqulization. That one is even safer.

Coming from someone who thinks that calling an opponent "stupid" is the best retort he can come up with in the face of an opposing viewpoint? You're going to have to excuse me if I'm not terribly impressed with any of the arguments you've presented so far.

You being impressed is irrleveant.
Not that I've been impresed with any "argument" you presented so far....

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Possibly. But can you tell who they are? Can you tell if their vigilance and strength will hold?
Everyone has bad days after all.

And anyone can be possessed.

Already adressed. You're a broken record.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
This is irrelevant to the discussion...and might I add, a completely flawed comparison. But I know you like your "Chantry is Evil" speech.

You mean my "mages shouldn't be imprisoned for being mages" speech that you hate because you're pro-Chantry? Given how it looks like they'll be a war between the Templars and the Mages I doubt that the Chantry imprisoning and dehumanizing people amounted to much good.

I'm realist.
You're the one charged with hatered towards a group, not me. As your obsessive need to repeat yourself (and list all "crimes" of the chantry, even when it's irrelevant to the discussion) a zillion times proves.

You're the one that ignores the grey reality of TheDas, by painitng the Chantry completley black.

From the codex entires we've read, the Chantry has killed more people in the name of Exalted Marches more than any mage, blood mage, or abomination we've heard about, so I'd be more concerned with the sanity of the person who is the Divine and call an Exalted March on a whim than I would be about any mage - mages can't destroy an entire nation with a devoted army of armored and armored religious followers who obey their every command, after all.

Blight. Tevinter Imperium.

and as I said again..IRRELEVANT TO THE TOPIC.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Huntress wrote...

So you lack evidence to show a Dalish need  to regulate mages, and ask for proff?
The only proff we have is: The Dalish new magic, Lived for a very long time, they were consider almost as inmortal, they slept for LONG periods of times.
If and I mean IF they had problems with demons/ Dalish-malificars, wouldn't they have become demons while they were sleep? What about if they had malificars? wouldnt they have been used as a portal* for demons? I mean portals by been murder while sleeping*.  Probably  Human-Mages is the cause of so many horrors and so much death.

Not proof. As I said again, immortality and ancient power of hte elves are not PROVEN. Elves talk about it, but it might as well be Myth.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Kakistos_ wrote...

As stated before, the fact that the Tevinter Imperium, Arlathan, the Dales, Haven and The Dalish are all societies that lived or still live in cohesion with mages speaks for itself. The Chantry's chants about Abominations are little more than propaganda. They are dangerous but not as much so as they would have the world believe.

Connor....Uldred...Baroness.

Abominations not dangerous? Hehehehehe....That's a good joke.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
"Probably" is not evidence.

Neither is claiming that the Chantry is the best option when you say that we know of no others. Considering that the mages were living among non-mages and the policy of segregation happened as a direct result of mages protesting against the Chantry to placate a Divine willing to declare an Exalted March on her own cathedral, there is no evidence that the current system of imprisoning mages (or enslaving them, depending on who you ask) is necessary.

Necessary? No. If people are willing to accept higher mortality rates that will come wiht mages being free, then it's theirt perogative.

Of course, that depends on weather you consider safety and protecting your life necessary.