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[Sir JK]

I dug around for some Gaider quotes made over four months ago in well... one of these topics.

Maybe they could add something to our discussion:



First one

The one I want to attract the attention to is the last question he answers:

"Do all un-educated mages eventually become abominations no matter what their age?"

He gave the answer:

"Of course not. Not all mages become abominations or blood mages. The fact that they could do it is what makes them so terrifying. If you knew your neighbour was a mage, someone who could turn into an abomination and kill you even without him wanting to? Or someone that might steal your children to use their blood, or read your mind? How comfortable would you feel about that?



That's if people even think it through that far. Once upon a time, mages ruled the known world with terrifying power, and the Chantry tells them that, given the chance, that could happen again. And not without reason."



In this I read that 1. Mages can turn into abominations against their will. 2. People fear mages both because of abominations and because of what blood magic can do. 3. The Chantry and people fears a return of the Tevinter of old.



Second one:

The bit I think is important is:

"It's very easy to demonize the Chantry, but the fact remains that it's largely an organization of people that mean well-- and who are looking to help and protect these mages (who, yes, would probably be killed by a frightened mob or even by their parents if not by themselves) as much as they are to control them."



I hope this will add something to the discussion.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
Yes I did.  I showed by using very plausable hypothetical numbers (and I never claimed they were anything other than hypothetical), you could in fact have a higher abomination rate (even much higher abomination rate outside the tower post-circle even IF 90% of the abominations are caught and killed in the circle.

You claimed that this was logically impossible.  I proved by counterexample that it was not.[/quote]

A inflated and broken counter-example. By using your methods, I can prove anything.

X/Y = Z .. if you want to get a specific Z, you can change X and Y till you get it. But that doesn't apply if the changes made are non-senical and pulled out of the ass.




[quote]
[quote]
Your numbers weren't reasonable.

I could claim that a single abomination can kill millions and call it reasonable. That doesn't make it so.

If you used a double - heck, even TRIPPLE - the reate, I'd say that number was reasonable.

But you oncreased the abomomination ratio in your "reasonable" example by 6000%. That's not reasonable. That's bull****.
[/quote]

Not it's not B.S.  It's quite plausibly really.  Why do mages become abominations?  That is generally known.  Essentailly while it's not possibly to precisely predict which make will become an abomination precisely when, you CAN predict risk factors (and certainly being IMPLANTED WITH A DEMON) is a huge risk factor doncha think?

Anyway....mages become abominations because they want or need something, and want it so badly that they are willing to let a demon in to make this happen (or tries to fight a demon in the fade by summoning it and failing but that is a much, much rarer case).  So who do you think is at higher risk?  The imprisoned, unhappy mage with no rights and constantly being reminded of how vile and evil he is every day, or the generally happy and well adjusted mage in society with friends, perhaps even love interests, and certainly social outlets in society?

I think the answer is clear.  I wouldn't be suprised if the actual abomination rate post circle wasn't as much as 10,000%  or more.  I was deliberately shooting for a low increase, seriously.[/quote]

B.S. is not a proper term for this. Elephant S*** may be somewhat closer.<_<

Mages can become abominations by force.
Mages cna become abominations if they are tricked by demons. The demons have many tricks. And mental fortitude is not something that always stasy on a constant level.  Or did you never had those day where you jsut feel tired and drain, mentally and physicly? Everyone can have a bad day, otherwise abominations wouldn't happen. Everyone has desires, imprisoned or not.
And there are plenty of mages who are well-adjusted and content in the Circles.

Heck, I'd be surprised if the abomination rate doubled, even that seems too much.
10,000%:lol: ....do you evne know how muhc that is?

No, your numbers are bollocks. I can play that game too.

Here, I claim that because of global warming, sea levels will rise by 10000 feet.
Don't dare to argue this, because it's so obviously the truth..and perfectly rational number.






[quote]
I know basic math too, and I showed by basic math how you could be logically wrong.[/quote]

You SURE you know math? Cause my professor would have flunked you for that.



[quote]
[quote]
But those numbers aren't really necessary, as basic logic dictates the numbes should be smaller.
[/quote]

No it doesn't.  Without those numbers you don't have a case and you know it.[/qutoe]

Nope. I won the case even wihout those numbers and YOU know THAT.


[quote]
[quote]
Heck, evne if there is an overall rise in the number of abomination incidents, there is no indication is hte bigger by such a huge margin.
And most importantly, even if there is a increase of abomination incidents, almost all of them would still happen wihtin the circle, thus STILL making the coutnryside safer.

Ergo, your argument falls flat on it's face.
[/quote]

Actually there is evidence that abominations are much more common post circle than precircle but admittedly it's indirect and implied evidence, but just for example, just how many mages fail their harrowing?  each one is an abomination incident that likely would not have happened pre-circle...[/quote]

And how exactly does that affect the security of the coutnryside in any way?
Given that you faield to read and understand, I undescored the important part.




[quote]
All but one were directly caused by the circle and happened AFTER the circle was formed.  Doesn't sound like the circle is working very well does it?[/quote]

Not directly.
And the Circle is working very well, thank you.

[LobselVith8]

Sir JK wrote...

I dug around for some Gaider quotes made over four months ago in well... one of these topics.
Maybe they could add something to our discussion:

First one
The one I want to attract the attention to is the last question he answers:
"Do all un-educated mages eventually become abominations no matter what their age?"
He gave the answer:
"Of course not. Not all mages become abominations or blood mages. The fact that they could do it is what makes them so terrifying. If you knew your neighbour was a mage, someone who could turn into an abomination and kill you even without him wanting to? Or someone that might steal your children to use their blood, or read your mind? How comfortable would you feel about that?

That's if people even think it through that far. Once upon a time, mages ruled the known world with terrifying power, and the Chantry tells them that, given the chance, that could happen again. And not without reason."

In this I read that 1. Mages can turn into abominations against their will. 2. People fear mages both because of abominations and because of what blood magic can do. 3. The Chantry and people fears a return of the Tevinter of old.

Yet we never see any fear of mages among the Dalish or the Disciples of Andraste, and Brother Genitivi's codex about Rivain mentions that the seers are revered among the people despite being mages. Clearly, it isn't an issue of simply being afraid because mages have power. The Chantry has played an active role in making people fearful of mages.

Sir JK wrote...

Second one:
The bit I think is important is:
"It's very easy to demonize the Chantry, but the fact remains that it's largely an organization of people that mean well-- and who are looking to help and protect these mages (who, yes, would probably be killed by a frightened mob or even by their parents if not by themselves) as much as they are to control them."

I hope this will add something to the discussion.

The problem is that multiple people created and wrote DA, and all of them have an opinion. If another writer disagrees with Gaider's opinion, that basically leaves us where we are now - in disagreement. From what I remember, Gaider called Cullen a creepy stalker:

HarlequinDream wrote...

Okay, another question.

I know Gaider's said it himself that Cullen is a creepy stalker

Gaider had a particular view of a character, and he was the Lead Writer. However, another DA writer, Sheryl Chee, disagreed with that assessment while mentioning DG's comments. Here precise comments were:

Sheryl Chee wrote...

As for the creepy stalker tendencies--er... I think that may have been started by David Gaider's little Cullen Romance snippet. I never imagined him as a creepy stalker.

Two DA writers disagreed, and the world didn't end. Clearly, DG has an opinion. In the end, it leaves us with the same debate that we've been arguing over for the past couple of days now.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 23 janvier 2011 - 09:36 .

[Sharn01]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

I have seen you all recently in this thread pointing to statistics, and referencing David Gaider for some of them in relation to abomination threats. 

I would like to be pointed in the right direction to see these posts by him if they exsist, or are you simply loosely interpreting something he said? 

You can find them here and here.

Yes, I remember those quotes, in fact he was responding to me when he made them.  He never gave any facts nor did he pick a side of the argument.  He simply presented the opinions of the people of Thedas and tried to explain why they have the system they do.  He never said it was a good or bad system, or gave any hard information, I think its clear he wants to keep it grey so that no one side can be seen as completely right.

Modifié par Sharn01, 23 janvier 2011 - 09:35 .

[IanPolaris]

Sharn01 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

I have seen you all recently in this thread pointing to statistics, and referencing David Gaider for some of them in relation to abomination threats. 

I would like to be pointed in the right direction to see these posts by him if they exsist, or are you simply loosely interpreting something he said? 

You can find them here and here.

Yes, I remember those quotes, in fact he was responding to me when he made them.  He never gave any facts not did he pick a side of the argument.  He simply presented the opinions of the people of Thedas and tried to explain why they have the system they do.  He never said it was a good or bad system, or gave any hard information, I think its clear he wants to keep it grey so that no one side can be seen as completely right.

Yes, I thought I saw your handle on the post that DG was responding to.  That was exactly my point.  Canonically DG has said nothing.  The only thing he's done is present the Chantry's PoV as the Chantry's PoV without editorial.  I find it appalling that many posters are reading far, far more into those quotes than is really there.

-Polaris

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Yet we never see any fear of mages among the Dalish or the Disciples of Andraste, and Brother Genitivi's codex about Rivain mentions that the seers are revered among the people despite being mages. Clearly, it isn't an issue of simply being afraid because mages have power. The Chantry has played an active role in making people fearful of mages.

We know next to nothing about Rivaini magic tradition (we have in fact not even seen it. Just been told it exist). The Dalish sequence did not deal with mages beyond Zathrian's curse. The Disciples of Andraste is about isolationistic xenophobic cults. Not every story in DA is about mages you know.
Why would they mention abominations when they're not about mages? We have much much yet to learn about them. What makes you think that their fear of abominations is not one of these things we have yet to see?

Abominations are like natural disasters. When they happen they are horrible and you try to prevent the damage they cause. But they're not on your mind constantly.

And I agree. The Chantry does it's part in making people fear mages. Question is... how much to mages and magic itself contribute. We don't know.

The problem is that multiple people created and wrote DA, and all of them have an opinion. If another writer disagrees with Gaider's opinion, that basically leaves us where we are now - in disagreement. From what I remember, Gaider called Cullen a creepy stalker:

Two DA writers disagreed, and the world didn't end. Clearly, DG has an opinion. In the end, it leaves us with the same debate that we've been arguing over for the past couple of days now.

I'm not really sure I understand what you're aiming for here Lobsel. Why is my argument faulty? Because Sheryl and Gaider disagreed about Cullen? I don't see a connection I fear. Can you please enlighten me as to exactly what your point was.

Modifié par Sir JK, 23 janvier 2011 - 09:48 .

[IanPolaris]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
Yes I did.  I showed by using very plausable hypothetical numbers (and I never claimed they were anything other than hypothetical), you could in fact have a higher abomination rate (even much higher abomination rate outside the tower post-circle even IF 90% of the abominations are caught and killed in the circle.

You claimed that this was logically impossible.  I proved by counterexample that it was not.[/quote]

A inflated and broken counter-example. By using your methods, I can prove anything.

X/Y = Z .. if you want to get a specific Z, you can change X and Y till you get it. But that doesn't apply if the changes made are non-senical and pulled out of the ass.
[/quote]

Look guy, you made a very strong logical claim, and I showed using very reasonable hypothetical numbers (clearly labeled as such as well) that it didn't have to be the case.  The point is this:  The proposition that the abomination incident rate outside the tower is less with the circle than without, is a point that has to be proven.  You can't claim it's logically obvious.  It's not as I proved.


[quote]
[quote]
[quote]
Your numbers weren't reasonable.

I could claim that a single abomination can kill millions and call it reasonable. That doesn't make it so.

If you used a double - heck, even TRIPPLE - the reate, I'd say that number was reasonable.

But you oncreased the abomomination ratio in your "reasonable" example by 6000%. That's not reasonable. That's bull****.
[/quote]

Not it's not B.S.  It's quite plausibly really.  Why do mages become abominations?  That is generally known.  Essentailly while it's not possibly to precisely predict which make will become an abomination precisely when, you CAN predict risk factors (and certainly being IMPLANTED WITH A DEMON) is a huge risk factor doncha think?

Anyway....mages become abominations because they want or need something, and want it so badly that they are willing to let a demon in to make this happen (or tries to fight a demon in the fade by summoning it and failing but that is a much, much rarer case).  So who do you think is at higher risk?  The imprisoned, unhappy mage with no rights and constantly being reminded of how vile and evil he is every day, or the generally happy and well adjusted mage in society with friends, perhaps even love interests, and certainly social outlets in society?

I think the answer is clear.  I wouldn't be suprised if the actual abomination rate post circle wasn't as much as 10,000%  or more.  I was deliberately shooting for a low increase, seriously.[/quote]

B.S. is not a proper term for this. Elephant S*** may be somewhat closer.<_<
[/quote]

I don't think so.  I don't see anyone else deliberately trying toi make abominations to "test" mages.  That has to increase the abomination rate by a huge amount.

[quote]
Mages can become abominations by force.
Mages cna become abominations if they are tricked by demons. The demons have many tricks. And mental fortitude is not something that always stasy on a constant level.  Or did you never had those day where you jsut feel tired and drain, mentally and physicly? Everyone can have a bad day, otherwise abominations wouldn't happen. Everyone has desires, imprisoned or not.
And there are plenty of mages who are well-adjusted and content in the Circles.
[/quote]

Sure they can and I've never said otherwise.  However, they do so by CHOSING to combat a demon in the fade (which is what summoning really is) and losing.  Otherwise the only way a demon can gain control of a mage is if the mage lets him and the incidental evidence outside the circle is that this is very, very rare.  Self-Preservation would contraindicate it almost always.  Now put the mage under highly stressful situations where he feels it's deal with a demon or die, and the abomination rates go way up...but the Chantry never does anything like that  (sarc).


[quote]
Heck, I'd be surprised if the abomination rate doubled, even that seems too much.
10,000%:lol: ....do you evne know how muhc that is?
[/quote]

Sure.  100 fold increase.  Quite plausible given you are putting all mages in one basic and tormenting them (and yes imprisoning them and denying them basic rights is tormenting them) in addition to actually forcefeeding them demons.  Even this might be low, but my hypothetical rate was a 6000% increase which is probably far too low an increase.

[quote]
No, your numbers are bollocks. I can play that game too.

Here, I claim that because of global warming, sea levels will rise by 10000 feet.
Don't dare to argue this, because it's so obviously the truth..and perfectly rational number.
[/quote]

I am basing my numbers off of reasonable inferences of the societies we see and the impact or lack thereof of abominations, and comparing that to the observed and apparent abomonation rates generated by the Chantry.

Is it hard numeric evidence?  Of course not.  It's a hypothetical contruction.  But it is one based on plausibility and designed to show that your "logically obvious" conclusion is anything but.

[edit...didn't realize more post to answer...onward]

[quote]
[quote]
I know basic math too, and I showed by basic math how you could be logically wrong.[/quote]

You SURE you know math? Cause my professor would have flunked you for that.
[/quote]

My math is solid.  All I showed was with certain hypothetical (reasonable but hypoethetical) assumptions, a completely different conclusion was possible.  Thus it is NOT the obvious and logical conclusion.

[quote]
[quote]
[quote]
But those numbers aren't really necessary, as basic logic dictates the numbes should be smaller.
[/quote]

No it doesn't.  Without those numbers you don't have a case and you know it.[/qutoe]

Nope. I won the case even wihout those numbers and YOU know THAT.
[/quote]

I showed a valid counterexample which means you position is NOT logicall obvious (to say the least).

[quote]
[quote]
[quote]
Heck, evne if there is an overall rise in the number of abomination incidents, there is no indication is hte bigger by such a huge margin.
And most importantly, even if there is a increase of abomination incidents, almost all of them would still happen wihtin the circle, thus STILL making the coutnryside safer.
[/quote]

I PROVED using very reasonable numbers that this didn't have to be the case.  You are going to have to prove that.


[quote]
Ergo, your argument falls flat on it's face.
[/quote]

Saying this doesn't make it so.

[quote][quote]
Actually there is evidence that abominations are much more common post circle than precircle but admittedly it's indirect and implied evidence, but just for example, just how many mages fail their harrowing?  each one is an abomination incident that likely would not have happened pre-circle...[/quote]

And how exactly does that affect the security of the coutnryside in any way?
Given that you faield to read and understand, I undescored the important part.
[/quote]

Numbers game really.  I imagine there are a few demons (esp pride ones) that were clever enough to fool the templars who after all are no mages.  Difficult but not impossible.  That's just for failed harrowings.   There are other reasons why the abomination rate in the circle would be vastly increased and we've covered a few not to mention that mages that go apostate can (and have per the codecies) turned abomination because of the Templars hunting them and ALL of those occure outside the tower.

[quote]
[quote]
All but one were directly caused by the circle and happened AFTER the circle was formed.  Doesn't sound like the circle is working very well does it?[/quote]

Not directly.
And the Circle is working very well, thank you.
[/quote]

Evidence would be nice.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 23 janvier 2011 - 10:08 .

[Huntress]

Sir JK wrote...

I dug around for some Gaider quotes made over four months ago in well... one of these topics.
Maybe they could add something to our discussion:

First one
The one I want to attract the attention to is the last question he answers:
"Do all un-educated mages eventually become abominations no matter what their age?"
He gave the answer:
"Of course not. Not all mages become abominations or blood mages. The fact that they could do it is what makes them so terrifying. If you knew your neighbour was a mage, someone who could turn into an abomination and kill you even without him wanting to? Or someone that might steal your children to use their blood, or read your mind? How comfortable would you feel about that?

That's if people even think it through that far. Once upon a time, mages ruled the known world with terrifying power, and the Chantry tells them that, given the chance, that could happen again. And not without reason."

In this I read that 1. Mages can turn into abominations against their will. 2. People fear mages both because of abominations and because of what blood magic can do. 3. The Chantry and people fears a return of the Tevinter of old.

Second one:
The bit I think is important is:
"It's very easy to demonize the Chantry, but the fact remains that it's largely an organization of people that mean well-- and who are looking to help and protect these mages (who, yes, would probably be killed by a frightened mob or even by their parents if not by themselves) as much as they are to control them."

I hope this will add something to the discussion.

You dont actually need to be a mage for the First to happen, do you? I'll hint Branka with the anvil now go!

I read Ignorance and fear that is what the chantry and chanters give in every city/town. Thats what make the mages suffer for so long.  Do they want people to lose fear NO, they only want to protect investments.. all the mages working and forging lyrium and they dont have to paid them.. Better than to deal than the dwarves right?


Protecting?

Caging you for the rest of your life is protecting?  How about educating the people about it? 
"That yes, bad thing can happen with magic BUT, there are alot of good things can happen aswell."

NO thats not what the chantry wants, they need an enemy to point. The Tavinter mages did Terrible things, well we are NOT in tavinter, this is FERELDEN.

Making you to believe that you are cursed for been born with a gift?  Thats protecting? Whats better than a tranquil? 
a chair!

Not allowing you to live a life is protecting you? Wow we should put all the templars in a line Up and ask them:  are you happy? If the answer is no we  need another tower.

My warden is Not a mage, is a dalish assasin, who is against The chantry.

Modifié par Huntress, 23 janvier 2011 - 10:23 .

[s0meguy6665]

Sir JK wrote...
In this I read that 1. Mages can turn into abominations against their will.

Seriously, you need no Gaider quote for that. What do you think the Harrowing is for?

As for the rest it's stupid to fear a mage because of that. For the same reason that you wouldn't be afraid of non-mage neighbors because they might sneak into your home and kill you with a knife.

Modifié par s0meguy6665, 23 janvier 2011 - 09:59 .

[IanPolaris]

Sir JK wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Yet we never see any fear of mages among the Dalish or the Disciples of Andraste, and Brother Genitivi's codex about Rivain mentions that the seers are revered among the people despite being mages. Clearly, it isn't an issue of simply being afraid because mages have power. The Chantry has played an active role in making people fearful of mages.

We know next to nothing about Rivaini magic tradition (we have in fact not even seen it. Just been told it exist). The Dalish sequence did not deal with mages beyond Zathrian's curse. The Disciples of Andraste is about isolationistic xenophobic cults. Not every story in DA is about mages you know.
Why would they mention abominations when they're not about mages? We have much much yet to learn about them. What makes you think that their fear of abominations is not one of these things we have yet to see?

Abominations are like natural disasters. When they happen they are horrible and you try to prevent the damage they cause. But they're not on your mind constantly.

The black-plague was an ongoing natural disaster that wiped out a third of the population in Europe over the course of a century and in heavily populated and urbanized areas, it had a mortality rate somtimes exceeding 80%.  It gutted Europe, and it left an impact on the entire culture that could be seen for centuries thereafter....even in things (like nursery rhymes) that seeminlgy have nothing to do with the plague.

The same applies here.  Abominations are much like natural disasters, but given that mages will always exist and can (hypothetically speaking) always be possessed (of course everyone else can always be possessed too...something the pro-Chantry people tend to gloss over), then if abominations were both as destructive as the Chantry claims AND incidents were as common as in the Chantry system, we should see a similiar huge social footprint.  The ABSENCE of such a footrprint is a huge piece of contrary evidence that can not be ignored, especially when we see the same lack of footprint not just on one non-circle human/elven culture but ALL of them including the Andrastian Culture up to 700 year ago!

And I agree. The Chantry does it's part in making people fear mages. Question is... how much to mages and magic itself contribute. We don't know.

We can make a very informed guess, however.  All we have to do is compare common attitudes towards magic and mages in Andrastian nations against those in non-Andrastian (non-Circle since obviously Haven would be included in this category) societies, and the difference is stark.  The cultural differences between the various non-circle societies is just as great as between the Andrastian and any given non-Andrastian society, but in ALL cases (except the Qun who are a special case of their own), we find that mages and magic are not only tolerated but generally accepted and even honored.

What's the common difference?  The Chantry.

The problem is that multiple people created and wrote DA, and all of them have an opinion. If another writer disagrees with Gaider's opinion, that basically leaves us where we are now - in disagreement. From what I remember, Gaider called Cullen a creepy stalker:

Two DA writers disagreed, and the world didn't end. Clearly, DG has an opinion. In the end, it leaves us with the same debate that we've been arguing over for the past couple of days now.

I'm not really sure I understand what you're aiming for here Lobsel. Why is my argument faulty? Because Sheryl and Gaider disagreed about Cullen? I don't see a connection I fear. Can you please enlighten me as to exactly what your point was.

Simple.  Opinions of DG that are written as opinions have no more canonical weight than anyone else that posts here.  DG Opinion is ==/== WoG.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

Sir JK wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Yet we never see any fear of mages among the Dalish or the Disciples of Andraste, and Brother Genitivi's codex about Rivain mentions that the seers are revered among the people despite being mages. Clearly, it isn't an issue of simply being afraid because mages have power. The Chantry has played an active role in making people fearful of mages.

We know next to nothing about Rivaini magic tradition (we have in fact not even seen it. Just been told it exist). The Dalish sequence did not deal with mages beyond Zathrian's curse. The Disciples of Andraste is about isolationistic xenophobic cults. Not every story in DA is about mages you know.  

But we can read from Genitivi's codex that the people of Rivain revere their mages. We can see how well Zathrian is respected by his people, regardless of him being a mage. Kolgrim makes his contempt for the anti-mage practices of the Andrastian Chantry well known, and the Disciples use blood magic to become Reavers in the first place.

Sir JK wrote...

Why would they mention abominations when they're not about mages? We have much much yet to learn about them. What makes you think that their fear of abominations is not one of these things we have yet to see?

You're missing the point. They clearly don't hold the anti-mage views that their Andrastian contemporaries do from what information we're presented with. Clearly, even the threat of abominations don't have to turn everyone against mages. It's clearly the result of indocturination done by the Chantry, who make their views on magic and mages very clear.

Sir JK wrote...

And I agree. The Chantry does it's part in making people fear mages. Question is... how much to mages and magic itself contribute. We don't know.

Clearly, given how there isn't an anti-mage bias in Rivain, the Dalish clans, and Haven...

Modifié par LobselVith8, 23 janvier 2011 - 10:17 .

[s0meguy6665]

edit: nevermind

Modifié par s0meguy6665, 23 janvier 2011 - 10:23 .

[Sir JK]

[quote]Huntress wrote...
You dont actually need to be a mage for the First to happen, do you? I'll hint Branka with the anvil now go![/quote]

I'm not sure I understand you here. Only mages can become abominations. The rest of us become normal possessed/undead.

[quote]I read Ignorance and fear that is what the chantry and chanters give in every city/town. Thats what make the mages suffer for so long.  Do they want people to lose fear NO, they only want to protect investments.. all the mages working and forging lyrium and they dont have to paid them.. Better than to deal than the dwarves right?[/quote]

Tell me one thing though Huntress. Do you believe baseless statements?


[quote]Protecting?

Caging you for the rest of your life is protecting?  How about educating the people about it?  [/quote]
Caging for life is protecting mages from lynch mobs and protecting lynch mobs form mages. Putting a wall between scared people and scary people tend to protect them from one another.
And to be honest... would educating people help. Noone can picture what magic is unless they have it. How do you shape the world with your mind? What does that mean? What if you're angry at someone, will that man you hurt them? What if you're scared? How do you resist an abomination?

How do you teach a non-mage about that?
I can tell you that being taught how to draw blood and actually drawing blood from someone is two profoundly different experiences. I'm not sure how I can explain it really. The former is knowing and the latter is knowing I suppose. I imagine being taught about magic will be similar. You might know of it, but you won't ever know it.

[quote]Making you to believe that you are cursed for been born with a gift? [/quote]
However... if demons can force possess, which is lore-supported, then there is a curse coming with magic. Is there not?

[quote]S0meguy6665 wrote...
Seriously, you need no Gaider quote for that. What do you think the Harrowing is for?

As
for the rest it's stupid to fear a mage because of that. For the same
reason that you wouldn't be afraid of non-mage neighbors because they
might sneak into your home and kill you with a knife.[/quote]
But we have one lore source pointing out that a single abomination took down 70 people before it was tracked down. Compare... I think the record for a single human IRL is 12 . Abominations are more like natural disasters than murderers. Is it wrong to put up safeguards to prevent innocent lives from being spilled?

Remember that one of the advantages with mages in a tower is that if one of them turn into an abomination... they are still trapped within the tower.

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
The black-plague was an ongoing natural disaster that wiped out a third
of the population in Europe over the course of a century and in heavily
populated and urbanized areas, it had a mortality rate somtimes
exceeding 80%.  It gutted Europe, and it left an impact on the entire
culture that could be seen for centuries thereafter....even in things
(like nursery rhymes) that seeminlgy have nothing to do with the plague.

The
same applies here.  Abominations are much like natural disasters, but
given that mages will always exist and can (hypothetically speaking)
always be possessed (of course everyone else can always be possessed
too...something the pro-Chantry people tend to gloss over), then if
abominations were both as destructive as the Chantry claims AND
incidents were as common as in the Chantry system, we should see a
similiar huge social footprint.  The ABSENCE of such a footrprint is a
huge piece of contrary evidence that can not be ignored, especially when
we see the same lack of footprint not just on one non-circle
human/elven culture but ALL of them including the Andrastian Culture up
to 700 year ago![/quote]

Thing is... 1. All people can be possessed but only mages become abominations. Only abominations can do the stuff possessed can do and cast spells (or so the codex tells us). 2. Only mages can be possessed through the veil. For non-mages to be possessed the veil need to be torn and/or a demon need to be present. 3. You say that we should see a social footprint and I agree. If they have the same level of problem we would see it.
However, no other culture is as developed as Andrastian theodosian. I am simply saying that we do not know enough to make claims like this yet.

Basically... we need to know more before we can safely say the Chantry is sub-par. Remember, no other story in DAO dealt with the problems of mages. The Dalish sequence was more about revenge than mage management. Only the Broken Circle and Mage Origin have dealt with mages place in the world. That is thus far our only real source of information on mages in all cultures. All other is at this point at best rumour and hearsay.

[quote]We can make a very informed guess, however.  All we have to do is
compare common attitudes towards magic and mages in Andrastian nations
against those in non-Andrastian (non-Circle since obviously Haven would
be included in this category) societies, and the difference is stark.
 The cultural differences between the various non-circle societies is
just as great as between the Andrastian and any given non-Andrastian
society, but in ALL cases (except the Qun who are a special case of
their own), we find that mages and magic are not only tolerated but
generally accepted and even honored.

What's the common difference?  The Chantry.[/quote]
Tell me though, What does Dalish parents think of mages (other mages, not their own children)? How are apprentices among the Dalish trained? How many mages per non-mage is born and raised in haven? How are the Rivaini mages trained? What are the various political views of Dalish mages on their position in society and of other societies? Do these cultures Harrow? If not, why? Do these cultures have templar-equalients? If not, why? Why are they not at risk for abominations? Or are they?

All those questions and more still lie unanswered.

Remember:
We have not seen everything of Thedas yet
There are still thousands and thousands of lessons we have yet to learn about mages in circles alone. Many many more things to learn. We don't know everything yet. Especially how other mages deal with their mages and the troubles thereof.

Many of the anti-chantry side are saying that because we have no evidence of mage-related problems there, no such problems exist. But absense of evidence is not evidence of absense. They may very well have the same problems. We have just not been introduced to them yet?
Why? Because as I said to Lobsel. Not every story is about mages and abominations. 

[quote]Simple.  Opinions of DG that are written as opinions have no more
canonical weight than anyone else that posts here.  DG Opinion is ==/==
WoG.[/quote]

Seriously, I dig up a dev quote that might not support the idea that the Chantry is a terrible beats bent on world conquest and you dismiss it because you think it looks too much like opinion?
<_<
Seriously... you guys are better than that. If you want to dismiss it, then dig up an official source (dev quote, codex entry, in-game conversation) that contradicts it. Don't wave it aside because it does not suit your views.
I enjoy this discussion. Don't ruin it with cheap tricks. Because you guys are way better at arguing than that.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
But we can read from Genitivi's codex that the people of Rivain revere
their mages. We can see how well Zathrian is respected by his people,
regardless of him being a mage. Kolgrim makes his contempt for the
anti-mage practices of the Andrastian Chantry well known, and the
Disciples use blood magic to become Reavers in the first place.[/quote]
But why? We don't know that. I don't deny they might like their mages. But that does not mean the system is neccesarily better. Until someone explicitely or implicitely explains to us how that mage-system functions we cannot argue it's merit.
[quote]You're missing the point. They clearly don't hold the anti-mage views
that their Andrastian contemporaries do from what information we're
presented with. Clearly, even the threat of abominations don't have to
turn everyone against mages. It's clearly the result of indocturination
done by the Chantry, who make their views on magic and mages very clear.[/quote]
The part I bolded is my key point Lobsel. We have not seen that from the information presented. I am saying we have not been presented with that information yet. To use an analogy, you are saying you have not found any evidence of pasta recipes in the book presented. I'm saying the book is about plumbing so of course you haven't .

The Broken Circle and Mage Origin deal with mages and the problems around them in Andrastian Thedas. The Dalish Origin and Wherewolf part deals with grudges, revenge, ancient curses and belonging to a shunned people. They don't deal with the same issues and there is no reason to even discuss mages and the related problems in the Dalish part of DAO. The stories are not about that. There's no need to discuss it. Maybe we will see it in the future and I, personally, hope so. But we're not there yet.

So all I ask is: judge the Chantry and it's methods on it's own without comparing it to anyone else.
[quote]Clearly, given how there isn't an anti-mage bias in Rivain, the Dalish clans, and Haven...[/quote]
That we have seen.
Of course... all I know of Rivain is that it was attacked by Qunari, there are some strange spirit mages there, there's been exalted marches declared on the place, that a blight it it and that Isabela is from the place. We don't quite have the same level of information about the place as we do of Andrastian Thedas.

[s0meguy6665]

Sir JK wrote...

S0meguy6665 wrote...
Seriously, you need no Gaider quote for that. What do you think the Harrowing is for?

As
for the rest it's stupid to fear a mage because of that. For the same
reason that you wouldn't be afraid of non-mage neighbors because they
might sneak into your home and kill you with a knife.

But we have one lore source pointing out that a single abomination took down 70 people before it was tracked down. Compare... I think the record for a single human IRL is 12 . Abominations are more like natural disasters than murderers. Is it wrong to put up safeguards to prevent innocent lives from being spilled?

Remember that one of the advantages with mages in a tower is that if one of them turn into an abomination... they are still trapped within the tower.

Biggest IRL spree killer killed 57 people
Biggest serial killer killed 218 people (that's only his confirmed cases)

That's only in very modern times, just to prove that humans are capable of it without having magical powers, if they really wanted to.

"Is it wrong to put up safeguards to prevent innocent lives from being spilled?"

Yes, if it means imprisoning innocent people for life (or invading their privacy for that matter, I know that people these days are practically salivating at exchanging that one for the illusion of security), making them miserable and making it more likely that they'll willingly submit to demons anyway. Instead let them live healthy lives but teach them how to safely practice magic.

People IRL can get mental disorders that cause them to kill others. Many do it just for financial gain, that would probably include people in your immediate vicinity.

There are always risk groups. Does that mean that everyone in that risk group should be locked up without doing anything wrong?

Modifié par s0meguy6665, 24 janvier 2011 - 12:24 .

[LobselVith8]

Just when I think I'm out, they drag me back in...

Sir JK wrote...
Caging for life is protecting mages from lynch mobs and protecting lynch mobs form mages. Putting a wall between scared people and scary people tend to protect them from one another.
And to be honest... would educating people help. Noone can picture what magic is unless they have it. How do you shape the world with your mind? What does that mean? What if you're angry at someone, will that man you hurt them? What if you're scared? How do you resist an abomination?

Protecting them from people who have been indocturinated by the Chantry to see magic as evil, you mean? Because mages have protected the Andrastian nations from the Qunari armies and the darkspawn, and they're still dehumanized and imprisoned for life under the guard of armored and armed drug addicts.

Sir JK wrote...
How do you teach a non-mage about that?
I can tell you that being taught how to draw blood and actually drawing blood from someone is two profoundly different experiences. I'm not sure how I can explain it really. The former is knowing and the latter is knowing I suppose. I imagine being taught about magic will be similar. You might know of it, but you won't ever know it.

You keep repeating ad nauseum that people are scared of magic - but it's because of the Chantry that this is so. The problem is that we already see from other cultures that mages aren't always demonized - Kolgrim openly distains the anti-magic practices of the Andrastian Chantry, the Dalish openly use magic, and the mages are revered in Rivain. We may not know every little detail about their cultures, but we do know that they don't share the anti-mage propaganda that the Andrastian Chantry preaches.

Sir JK wrote...
But why? We don't know that. I don't deny they might like their mages. But that does not mean the system is neccesarily better. Until someone explicitely or implicitely explains to us how that mage-system functions we cannot argue it's merit.

I never claimed their system was better, I pointed out that they don't share the anti-mage bias of the Andrastian Chantry.

Sir JK wrote...
The part I bolded is my key point Lobsel. We have not seen that from the information presented. I am saying we have not been presented with that information yet. To use an analogy, you are saying you have not found any evidence of pasta recipes in the book presented. I'm saying the book is about plumbing so of course you haven't

You're confusing the issue of individual viewpoints with policy. I'm not claiming they're better than the Andrastian Chantry, but they certainly don't share the anti-mage bias, and I don't see how you can claim otherwise when the evidence supports me. It's not Haven policy to imprison mages and treat them like they're sub-human garbage, especially when their leader - Kolgrim - openly detests the anti-magic views of the Chantry and the society openly accepts blood magic and magic in general. It's not Dalish policy to imprison mages if they possess magical ability, since their leaders and followers tend to know magic. The people of Rivain revere their mages, so they clearly don't share the anti-mage bias of the Andrasian nations. I don't see what's wrong with pointing out that other cultures don't share the Andrastian Chantry's views on mages.

Sir JK wrote...
But we have one lore source pointing out that a single abomination took down 70 people before it was tracked down. Compare... I think the record for a single human IRL is 12 . Abominations are more like natural disasters than murderers. Is it wrong to put up safeguards to prevent innocent lives from being spilled?

In other words, let's have law and order when it comes to magic? Nobody is arguing against that. Nobody is disputing that there should be safeguards in place if people break the law. People are arguing against a system that dehumanizes and imprisons people with nothing to support these actions but conjecture and speculation.

Sir JK...
Remember that one of the advantages with mages in a tower is that if one of them turn into an abomination... they are still trapped within the tower.

And yet most of the mages we hear about or encounter become abominations as a direct result of the Chantry practices against mages.

Sir JK...
Thing is... 1. All people can be possessed but only mages become abominations. Only abominations can do the stuff possessed can do and cast spells (or so the codex tells us). 2. Only mages can be possessed through the veil. For non-mages to be possessed the veil need to be torn and/or a demon need to be present. 3. You say that we should see a social footprint and I agree. If they have the same level of problem we would see it.
However, no other culture is as developed as Andrastian theodosian. I am simply saying that we do not know enough to make claims like this yet.

So let's put them in a system that treats them less than human and deny them basic rights? You keep mentioning how dangerous abominations are, but you also ignore the pitfalls of the system that mages are imprisoned in. Most cases of abominations we run across or read about in the codex entries happen as a direct result of the Chantry imprisoning mages. Why do you continue to ignore this? We have absolutely no proof that the Chantry locking up mages and treating all of them as though they were less than human is doing anything but stirring up people and causing some mages to feel that they need to be willing to fight to be free.

Sir JK wrote...
Basically... we need to know more before we can safely say the Chantry is sub-par. Remember, no other story in DAO dealt with the problems of mages. The Dalish sequence was more about revenge than mage management. Only the Broken Circle and Mage Origin have dealt with mages place in the world. That is thus far our only real source of information on mages in all cultures. All other is at this point at best rumour and hearsay.

We don't get more before we can say that - we can evaluate what we do know from DA:O and DA:A. People are being imprisoned by a religious institution that is preaching intolerance and hatred towards all mages. This is completely different than the pro-mage societies of Haven, Rivain, and the Dalish. Yes, the Dalish don't hate mages - they take them in (Aenirin and the references in WH of former Circle mages being accepted by the Dalish). Clearly, not everyone believes in the anti-mage propaganda spit forth by the Chantry.

Sir JK wrote...
Seriously, I dig up a dev quote that might not support the idea that the Chantry is a terrible beast bent on world conquest and you dismiss it because you think it looks too much like opinion?

It was an opinion, pure and simple. It was DG's opinion about the Chantry. You're welcome to love the Chantry and support what they do to mages. I'm certain it's not shared by the Dalish or the people in Haven, but I don't see what it has to do with a discussion about mages and whether they should be free or not.

[Huntress]

[quote]Sir JK wrote...

[quote]Huntress wrote...
You dont actually need to be a mage for the First to happen, do you? I'll hint Branka with the anvil now go![/quote]

I'm not sure I understand you here. Only mages can become abominations. The rest of us become normal possessed/undead.
[/quote]

Any criminal can come to a house and do terrible things like: take the child away, rape the family and kill it, and so many other thing, wouldn't that apply to it? Or only mages are able to do this? NOT all mages get to become one, thats my hole point. And yet any Humanoid/beast can be a MONSTER. ( humanoid: Dalish, human, dwarf)
[quote]I read Ignorance and fear that is what the chantry and chanters give in every city/town. Thats what make the mages suffer for so long.  Do they want people to lose fear NO, they only want to protect investments.. all the mages working and forging lyrium and they dont have to paid them.. Better than to deal than the dwarves right?[/quote]

Tell me one thing though Huntress. Do you believe baseless statements? [/quote]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Only by teaching the people about how magic works, the good and the bad side of it,  because If you don't know about it, you feel Threatent by it and fear it.


[quote]Protecting?

Caging you for the rest of your life is protecting?  How about educating the people about it?  [/quote]
Caging for life is protecting mages from lynch mobs and protecting lynch mobs form mages. Putting a wall between scared people and scary people tend to protect them from one another.
And to be honest... would educating people help. Noone can picture what magic is unless they have it. How do you shape the world with your mind? What does that mean? What if you're angry at someone, will that man you hurt them? What if you're scared? How do you resist an abomination?

How do you teach a non-mage about that?
I can tell you that being taught how to draw blood and actually drawing blood from someone is two profoundly different experiences. I'm not sure how I can explain it really. The former is knowing and the latter is knowing I suppose. I imagine being taught about magic will be similar. You might know of it, but you won't ever know it. [/quote]
========================================================================================

They can be tought,  same way as the chantry chanters do, or allow a mage to teach them, not forcing them to learn, just speaking to them, but cant be possible because the mage will have to leave the cage. 

How did you learn not to touch the flames, how to cook the fish? Someone should have tought you no? Use same way with mages, heal the person thats hurt, catch the crimanl that is running away.. so many possibilities.


[quote]Making you to believe that you are cursed for been born with a gift? [/quote]
However... if demons can force possess, which is lore-supported, then there is a curse coming with magic. Is there not?
[/quote]
==========================================================================================
But the point is NOT everyone get to be possesed, come on,  why didnt Irvin get posses? Aneirin? Morrigan living with a half demon-human-dragon thing for mother, Not every mage is a blood-mage-demon-lover.

[quote]S0meguy6665 wrote...
Seriously, you need no Gaider quote for that. What do you think the Harrowing is for?

As
for the rest it's stupid to fear a mage because of that. For the same
reason that you wouldn't be afraid of non-mage neighbors because they
might sneak into your home and kill you with a knife.[/quote]
But we have one lore source pointing out that a single abomination took down 70 people before it was tracked down. Compare... I think the record for a single human IRL is 12 . Abominations are more like natural disasters than murderers. Is it wrong to put up safeguards to prevent innocent lives from being spilled?

Remember that one of the advantages with mages in a tower is that if one of them turn into an abomination... they are still trapped within the tower. [/quote]
========================================================================================

Yes so is fear and ignorance thats caging them? not everyone is going to be a monster, not everyone is evil, a trained mage is more difficult to become a monster than an untrained child.

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
The black-plague was an ongoing natural disaster that wiped out a third
of the population in Europe over the course of a century and in heavily
populated and urbanized areas, it had a mortality rate somtimes
exceeding 80%.  It gutted Europe, and it left an impact on the entire
culture that could be seen for centuries thereafter....even in things
(like nursery rhymes) that seeminlgy have nothing to do with the plague.

The
same applies here.  Abominations are much like natural disasters, but
given that mages will always exist and can (hypothetically speaking)
always be possessed (of course everyone else can always be possessed
too...something the pro-Chantry people tend to gloss over), then if
abominations were both as destructive as the Chantry claims AND
incidents were as common as in the Chantry system, we should see a
similiar huge social footprint.  The ABSENCE of such a footrprint is a
huge piece of contrary evidence that can not be ignored, especially when
we see the same lack of footprint not just on one non-circle
human/elven culture but ALL of them including the Andrastian Culture up
to 700 year ago![/quote]


Thing is... 1. All people can be possessed but only mages become abominations. Only abominations can do the stuff possessed can do and cast spells (or so the codex tells us). 2. Only mages can be possessed through the veil. For non-mages to be possessed the veil need to be torn and/or a demon need to be present. 3. You say that we should see a social footprint and I agree. If they have the same level of problem we would see it.
However, no other culture is as developed as Andrastian theodosian. I am simply saying that we do not know enough to make claims like this yet.

Basically... we need to know more before we can safely say the Chantry is sub-par. Remember, no other story in DAO dealt with the problems of mages. The Dalish sequence was more about revenge than mage management. Only the Broken Circle and Mage Origin have dealt with mages place in the world. That is thus far our only real source of information on mages in all cultures. All other is at this point at best rumour and hearsay.

[quote]We can make a very informed guess, however.  All we have to do is
compare common attitudes towards magic and mages in Andrastian nations
against those in non-Andrastian (non-Circle since obviously Haven would
be included in this category) societies, and the difference is stark.
 The cultural differences between the various non-circle societies is
just as great as between the Andrastian and any given non-Andrastian
society, but in ALL cases (except the Qun who are a special case of
their own), we find that mages and magic are not only tolerated but
generally accepted and even honored.

What's the common difference?  The Chantry.[/quote]
Tell me though, What does Dalish parents think of mages (other mages, not their own children)? How are apprentices among the Dalish trained? How many mages per non-mage is born and raised in haven? How are the Rivaini mages trained? What are the various political views of Dalish mages on their position in society and of other societies? Do these cultures Harrow? If not, why? Do these cultures have templar-equalients? If not, why? Why are they not at risk for abominations? Or are they?

All those questions and more still lie unanswered. [/quote]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Answer: A dalish parent with a mage child is happy with the gifted, the tribe move all the times so the templars cant find the child, this child/s compete to be made first when they gain adulthood.

Answer: The leader is a mage, the knowlege about magic come from them.

Answer: Heaven was gone for many many years, we don't know exactly how many  but, if you make war with them, they'll be around 14-16 mages waiting to frost your bottoms. Do that count?

Answer: I personally dont know about Rivani mage-training, The little I read was, they were revred, I suppose that crazy mage in the woods will know more about it, talk to him!

Answer: Dalish mages become leaders of the tribe. Other sociaties see dalish/elves as slaves/servants is that sarcasm from your part?    I am hurt.

Answer: The dalish culture didn't last thanks to the chantry and their dogs.

Answer: Templars only server 1 master, the chantry. plus mages with lyrium.

Answer:  Dalish mages are not prone to become abomination because they are born free, they are tought about the fade and what lurks there. Not like towers mages, thrown to the wolfs like mouse said.



Remember:
We have not seen everything of Thedas yet
There are still thousands and thousands of lessons we have yet to learn about mages in circles alone. Many many more things to learn. We don't know everything yet. Especially how other mages deal with their mages and the troubles thereof.

Many of the anti-chantry side are saying that because we have no evidence of mage-related problems there, no such problems exist. But absense of evidence is not evidence of absense. They may very well have the same problems. We have just not been introduced to them yet?
Why? Because as I said to Lobsel. Not every story is about mages and abominations. [/quote]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This post is.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[quote]Simple.  Opinions of DG that are written as opinions have no more
canonical weight than anyone else that posts here.  DG Opinion is ==/==
WoG.[/quote]

Seriously, I dig up a dev quote that might not support the idea that the Chantry is a terrible beats bent on world conquest and you dismiss it because you think it looks too much like opinion?
<_<
Seriously... you guys are better than that. If you want to dismiss it, then dig up an official source (dev quote, codex entry, in-game conversation) that contradicts it. Don't wave it aside because it does not suit your views.
I enjoy this discussion. Don't ruin it with cheap tricks. Because you guys are way better at arguing than that.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is not if it suit us or not, the dev said mages are prone to become demons, we know it can happen, and yet NOT every mage we meet become  one..

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Keepers are the Dalish mages, though each clan will seldom or
never have more than two fully trained mages. These mages are the Keeper
and the Keeper's apprentice. The apprentice is referred to as the First (First
meaning the next in line of succession). Though there is only one First
in a clan at any time, there can be many candidates for the
apprenticeship.
The Templars are aware that each Dalish clan has a Keeper and so hunt the Dalish. This is one of the reasons why the elves remain nomadic.
Hope it helps with the dalsih.

Modifié par Huntress, 24 janvier 2011 - 01:24 .

[Nashiktal]

Sir JK wrote...


Protecting?

Caging you for the rest of your life is protecting?  How about educating the people about it? 
"That yes, bad thing can happen with magic BUT, there are alot of good things can happen aswell."

NO thats not what the chantry wants, they need an enemy to point. The Tavinter mages did Terrible things, well we are NOT in tavinter, this is FERELDEN.

Making you to believe that you are cursed for been born with a gift?  Thats protecting? Whats better than a tranquil? 
a chair!

Not allowing you to live a life is protecting you? Wow we should put all the templars in a line Up and ask them:  are you happy? If the answer is no we  need another tower.

My warden is Not a mage, is a dalish assasin, who is against The chantry.

Educating people about it? This isnt some sex ed issue here. We are talking about people, who at any moment, no matter the character, who could turn into a demon that could rip out your throat in the same amount of time it would take you to yell "woah!"

Letting mages run around free is like walking around an old ww2 minefield. You don't know which mines are live or duds, you can only find and gather the mines and diffuse them later.

Even if the chantry is evil, even if they are taking advantage of the mages, they are still protecting the people.(Even if that wasnt intentional) 

[Sharn01]

Sir JK wrote...

I dug around for some Gaider quotes made over four months ago in well... one of these topics.
Maybe they could add something to our discussion:

First one
The one I want to attract the attention to is the last question he answers:
"Do all un-educated mages eventually become abominations no matter what their age?"
He gave the answer:
"Of course not. Not all mages become abominations or blood mages. The fact that they could do it is what makes them so terrifying. If you knew your neighbour was a mage, someone who could turn into an abomination and kill you even without him wanting to? Or someone that might steal your children to use their blood, or read your mind? How comfortable would you feel about that?

That's if people even think it through that far. Once upon a time, mages ruled the known world with terrifying power, and the Chantry tells them that, given the chance, that could happen again. And not without reason."

In this I read that 1. Mages can turn into abominations against their will. 2. People fear mages both because of abominations and because of what blood magic can do. 3. The Chantry and people fears a return of the Tevinter of old.

Second one:
The bit I think is important is:
"It's very easy to demonize the Chantry, but the fact remains that it's largely an organization of people that mean well-- and who are looking to help and protect these mages (who, yes, would probably be killed by a frightened mob or even by their parents if not by themselves) as much as they are to control them."

I hope this will add something to the discussion.

You are reading to much into the first quote, David Gaider gives us a fact, that not all mages, even mages never educated in any manner, become abominations.  He then turns the conversation to the viewpoint of the average commoner.  What we know about possessions is that a mage has to either willingly let a demon in or be tricked into it, and while there is no absolute evidence, its strongly believed that a mage summoning a demon can be possessed if he does not have the strength of will to bring it out of the fade.

The scond quote is all fact, and also holds true to many real world religions, most religious people have good intentions, but I think its important to remember that some of the most evil acts performed in the history of the world where done with the very best of intentions. 

This doesnt mean I think the chantry need to be destroyed or anything, but if people who know that something is wrong and allow it to continue, there will never be a better solution.  I think thats the key, I dont doubt that the circle serves a purpose, but I do think there are better ways to do it, and if you just accept the current system as the best you can get and never try to make it better, then it never will get better. 

Imagine what the world would be like today if everyone in history just sat back and said, well, we could try to make life better for people and invent new things, but why bother, what we have now seems to work? 

I also think there is a lot of truth in the claims that the circle creates abominations, at the very least during the harrowing when the mage may not yet be ready for such a confrontation.  I am not going to look for the quote because its buried on the Origins boards somewhere, but I know DG has stated that many mages can live their entire lives and never encounter a possession attempt, so I think saying they attract demons like flies to honey is a large exaggeration. 

The debate really comes down to how much you value freedom.  I live by the idea that if you are willing to give up your freedom for security then you deserve neither, but not everyone thinks that way.  Until we are given actual numbers we will never be able to make an educated analysis of the abomination threat, but we never will get these numbers, because that would take away the vast majority of differing opinions about what needs to be done about mages and we will lose a lot of opprotunities to roleplay in the game.

[Huntress]

Nashiktal wrote...

Sir JK wrote...


Protecting?

Caging you for the rest of your life is protecting?  How about educating the people about it? 
"That yes, bad thing can happen with magic BUT, there are alot of good things can happen aswell."

NO thats not what the chantry wants, they need an enemy to point. The Tavinter mages did Terrible things, well we are NOT in tavinter, this is FERELDEN.

Making you to believe that you are cursed for been born with a gift?  Thats protecting? Whats better than a tranquil? 
a chair!

Not allowing you to live a life is protecting you? Wow we should put all the templars in a line Up and ask them:  are you happy? If the answer is no we  need another tower.

My warden is Not a mage, is a dalish assasin, who is against The chantry.

Educating people about it? This isnt some sex ed issue here. We are talking about people, who at any moment, no matter the character, who could turn into a demon that could rip out your throat in the same amount of time it would take you to yell "woah!"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I suppose thats all your parent tought you? sex? nothing about how to read, play the piano, not to destroy the mirror. Sad



Letting mages run around free is like walking around an old ww2 minefield. You don't know which mines are live or duds, you can only find and gather the mines and diffuse them later.

---------------------------------------

 Thedas is not even close to WW2.. Mages are NOT walking bomb. read some of the posts before you become the Forum's clown

-------------------------------------

Even if the chantry is evil, even if they are taking advantage of the mages, they are still protecting the people.(Even if that wasnt intentional) 

I do not dought that, but, has it worked? Do really keeping mages in a cage is for the good of the rest?
What about the mages getting Rebelious and starting a war? is that what this people want?
A mage Crushing them for what they have done to them, is thedas ready for another war?

A war is coming, pick a side.

Modifié par Huntress, 24 janvier 2011 - 02:00 .

[Sir JK]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Protecting them from people who have been indocturinated by the Chantry to see magic as evil, you mean? Because mages have protected the Andrastian nations from the Qunari armies and the darkspawn, and they're still dehumanized and imprisoned for life under the guard of armored and armed drug addicts.[/quote]
So you say. I am not convinced the Chantry is solely to blame here (because as you can gather I'm firmly convinced magic is scary and dangerous)
[quote]
You keep repeating ad nauseum that people are scared of magic - but it's because of the Chantry that this is so. The problem is that we already see from other cultures that mages aren't always demonized - Kolgrim openly distains the anti-magic practices of the Andrastian Chantry, the Dalish openly use magic, and the mages are revered in Rivain. We may not know every little detail about their cultures, but we do know that they don't share the anti-mage propaganda that the Andrastian Chantry preaches.[/quote]
[quote]
I never claimed their system was better, I pointed out that they don't share the anti-mage bias of the Andrastian Chantry.[/quote]
Answer to both quotes. Hmmm... fair enough. I can concede to this. As far as we have seen they do not have the same attitude to mages.
So we have Dalish, Haven and possibly Rivaini that have a positive attitude towards magic
Tevinter who have a regulated but semi-tolerated stance
And Theodosian and Qunari who is heavily regulating barely tolerating it. I'd like to put Chasind here, but it might jus be Flemeth they fear so I won't.

Mind however. This is not neccessarily because of the Chantry solely. It might be. But need not be,
[QUOTE]
You're confusing the issue of individual viewpoints with policy. I'm not claiming they're better than the Andrastian Chantry, but they certainly don't share the anti-mage bias, and I don't see how you can claim otherwise when the evidence supports me. It's not Haven policy to imprison mages and treat them like they're sub-human garbage, especially when their leader - Kolgrim - openly detests the anti-magic views of the Chantry and the society openly accepts blood magic and magic in general. It's not Dalish policy to imprison mages if they possess magical ability, since their leaders and followers tend to know magic. The people of Rivain revere their mages, so they clearly don't share the anti-mage bias of the Andrasian nations. I don't see what's wrong with pointing out that other cultures don't share the Andrastian Chantry's views on mages.[/quote]
Thank you Lobsel, we're on the same page now. Yes, they don't share the view.
[QUOTE]
In other words, let's have law and order when it comes to magic? Nobody is arguing against that. Nobody is disputing that there should be safeguards in place if people break the law. People are arguing against a system that dehumanizes and imprisons people with nothing to support these actions but conjecture and speculation.[/quote]
Law works for blood magic I think, allthough brining a experienced blood mage would be tricky. However... how do you apply the law to an abomination? They're just mindless beasts of destruction and torment. They don't fear or respect the law. They aren't afraid of doing something because of punishment.
So what would a law help against them? All it does is that you have to come to the scene and clean up afterwards. After the victims are already dead.

The entire point is to not let it come to that. That's the key question. If a abomination can slaughter dozens of humans with little effort. How do we prevent it from killing innocent non-mages? How do we minimize the risk?
[QUOTE]
And yet most of the mages we hear about or encounter become abominations as a direct result of the Chantry practices against mages.[/quote]
That is one intepretation yes.
However, the veil was also torn. The first abomination was caused by Uldred summoning a demon he lost control of. There's also the fact that one of our last remaining abomination in the game, the mages collective one, had nothing to do with the Chantry.
[QUOTE]
So let's put them in a system that treats them less than human and deny them basic rights? You keep mentioning how dangerous abominations are, but you also ignore the pitfalls of the system that mages are imprisoned in. Most cases of abominations we run across or read about in the codex entries happen as a direct result of the Chantry imprisoning mages. Why do you continue to ignore this? We have absolutely no proof that the Chantry locking up mages and treating all of them as though they were less than human is doing anything but stirring up people and causing some mages to feel that they need to be willing to fight to be free.[/quote]
Uhm... I have quotes from two Knight-Commanders saying the purpose of the tower is to protect people outside.

But fair enough... the problem is how do we adress the problems of the mages while still retaining their rights. Let's for the sake of the discussion assume here that the Chantry is reasonably correct in it's analysis of the dangers.
How do we prevent a random abomination from destroying a few villages before it is destroyed?
How do we regulate access to the insanely dangerous (to others) blood magic?
How do we keep mages safe from demons manipulating them? From using a sick child to manipulate them?
How do we deal with mages that refuse to accomply?

Those seem the questions behind most complaints against the chantry.
[QUOTE]
We don't get more before we can say that - we can evaluate what we do know from DA:O and DA:A. People are being imprisoned by a religious institution that is preaching intolerance and hatred towards all mages. This is completely different than the pro-mage societies of Haven, Rivain, and the Dalish. Yes, the Dalish don't hate mages - they take them in (Aenirin and the references in WH of former Circle mages being accepted by the Dalish). Clearly, not everyone believes in the anti-mage propaganda spit forth by the Chantry.[/quote]
However... in this vein. I'd like to add that Anaeirin who we all know have seen the absolutely worst of the circle, is also... hesitantly, considering to return to the circle. The mere fact that he admits that he will consider it tells us just as much as a blanket no would.
[QUOTE]
It was an opinion, pure and simple. It was DG's opinion about the Chantry. You're welcome to love the Chantry and support what they do to mages. I'm certain it's not shared by the Dalish or the people in Haven, but I don't see what it has to do with a discussion about mages and whether they should be free or not.[/quote]
Well, I don't love the Chantry or what they do. I just argue in their favour But my point is... I dig up a dev quote, and they have provided us with a lot of lore (we wouldn't know half as much about qunari without those after all), and it is dismissed outhand because, seemingly, it seems not to fit with your view. It just feels like shoddy rethorics and that you're not willing to discuss this properly with me at all
Until we have something contradicting it let's use it as a source. The Chantry means well and tries to, what it thinks of it as, help the mages. Yes, it can go about it very harshly and ruthlessly and it deals with people breaking the rules mercilessly.
Why however, is still open to interpetation. Is the Chantry trying the "benevolent" dictator approach (which suits anti-Chantry views) or is perhaps there more justification behind the mage treatment. That we can debate to death and back
Just don't brush it aside because it doesn't fit your views. If you have a legitimate reason to distrust that specific post. Then give me the source for that and I'll consider it. If not let's just add it onto our big pile of stuff we discuss.

[quote]Sharn01 wrote...
You are reading to much into the first quote, David Gaider gives us a
fact, that not all mages, even mages never educated in any manner,
become abominations.  He then turns the conversation to the viewpoint of
the average commoner.  What we know about possessions is that a mage
has to either willingly let a demon in or be tricked into it, and while
there is no absolute evidence, its strongly believed that a mage
summoning a demon can be possessed if he does not have the strength of
will to bring it out of the fade.[/quote]
Except Fiona gets force possessed by the demon in the Old Roads. Luckily the rest of the gang manage to save her before she is completely lost. So there is some, but no absolute, evidence that demons can indeed strongarm their way in.
I think a lot of the arguments we have here differ on this fact. If you believe demons can force-possess then the circle measures seem a step toward the more reasonable than if you don't believe it.

[quote]The scond quote is all fact,
and also holds true to many real world religions, most religious people
have good intentions, but I think its important to remember that some of
the most evil acts performed in the history of the world where done
with the very best of intentions. [/quote]
Oh absolutely.

[quote]This doesnt mean I think the
chantry need to be destroyed or anything, but if people who know that
something is wrong and allow it to continue, there will never be a
better solution.  I think thats the key, I dont doubt that the circle
serves a purpose, but I do think there are better ways to do it, and if
you just accept the current system as the best you can get and never try
to make it better, then it never will get better.  [/quote]
I don't deny there might be better ways to deal with it. I'm mostly just protesting that we've seen any of them yet.

[quote]
I also
think there is a lot of truth in the claims that the circle creates
abominations, at the very least during the harrowing when the mage may
not yet be ready for such a confrontation.  I am not going to look for
the quote because its buried on the Origins boards somewhere, but I know
DG has stated that many mages can live their entire lives and never
encounter a possession attempt, so I think saying they attract demons
like flies to honey is a large exaggeration.  [/quote]
Thing is though... I can't imagine what possess (well... except a demon) a mage to make them get the idea that going abomination would be a good idea for their fellow mages. The things will eat your soul and go on a rampage. Probably summon more demons which will attack your friends first. What benefit will it ever lead to? All it will do is cause great damage to the tower. Help you or your friends, it won't.

[quote]The debate really
comes down to how much you value freedom.  I live by the idea that if
you are willing to give up your freedom for security then you deserve
neither, but not everyone thinks that way.  Until we are given actual
numbers we will never be able to make an educated analysis of the
abomination threat, but we never will get these numbers, because that
would take away the vast majority of differing opinions about what needs
to be done about mages and we will lose a lot of opprotunities to
roleplay in the game.[/quote]
A number analysis would give us something to gauge though and while it would be simpler to value each system then. It would also remove ambiguity. I think at some level writers enjoy seeing us discuss this like this.

Also, sorry Huntress. But I don't have time right now to decipher your posts and answer. Perhaps later if the topic haven't spawned half a dozen new pages.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Yet we never see any fear of mages among the Dalish or the Disciples of Andraste, and Brother Genitivi's codex about Rivain mentions that the seers are revered among the people despite being mages. Clearly, it isn't an issue of simply being afraid because mages have power. The Chantry has played an active role in making people fearful of mages.

Seriously? You're using Andraste Desciples, poeple who shown up in only 1 quest, for a very short while, and had 3 lines of text. How do you know they don't fear their mages?

And hte Dlish..the group we know so little about and prefer not to speak of themselves to anyone. They could be afraid of hte mages too for all you know, they just don't show it openly.


Nah..f*** the Chantry, it has practicly nothing to do with fear of mages. MAges are to be feared by their very nature.

One doesn't need an instituation to tell you bombs are dangerous. After a few go off, word will spread on it's own. Basic human nature. Basic survial instinct.

If you had even the most basic knowledge of human psychology, you should know that.

The problem is that multiple people created and wrote DA, and all of them have an opinion. If another writer disagrees with Gaider's opinion, that basically leaves us where we are now - in disagreement. From what I remember, Gaider called Cullen a creepy stalker:

David is the LEAD writer.
and while he and Sherly may have a bit different view of how would a Cullen romance work ) a romance that doesn't exist in the game, so it was never written down. If it was written down, one specific Cullen personality would exist), the facts of the setting are set by him.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...
Yes, I thought I saw your handle on the post that DG was responding to.  That was exactly my point.  Canonically DG has said nothing.  The only thing he's done is present the Chantry's PoV as the Chantry's PoV without editorial.  I find it appalling that many posters are reading far, far more into those quotes than is really there.

-Polaris

You know what I I find appaling? Your posts.

In the thread wgere Gaider made those quotes, there was no debate about what he meant. Everyone pretty much agreed that he was saying what it looked like he was saying.

You and Lob are the only two people who see differently. So what are we supposed to assume from that?
That everyone else aside the two of you is stupid and can't figure out a single post by a dev?
That DG enjoys messing with us so much, that he writes his reponses so crypticly that only you and Lob can decypher his true meaning?


It is pretty clear to anyone what DG was saying. Basic logic and math furhter cement that.
But you refuse to listen and continue to push your own agenda trough some shoddy reasoning.

You have, several times, tried using gameplay and balance elements as proof (example: berserker as dangerous as an abomination)  - despite multiple lore and codex entries and dev statements that contradict you completely.

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Yes, I thought I saw your handle on the post that DG was responding to.  That was exactly my point.  Canonically DG has said nothing.  The only thing he's done is present the Chantry's PoV as the Chantry's PoV without editorial.  I find it appalling that many posters are reading far, far more into those quotes than is really there.

-Polaris

You know what I I find appaling? Your posts.

In the thread wgere Gaider made those quotes, there was no debate about what he meant. Everyone pretty much agreed that he was saying what it looked like he was saying.

You and Lob are the only two people who see differently. So what are we supposed to assume from that?
That everyone else aside the two of you is stupid and can't figure out a single post by a dev?
That DG enjoys messing with us so much, that he writes his reponses so crypticly that only you and Lob can decypher his true meaning?


It is pretty clear to anyone what DG was saying. Basic logic and math furhter cement that.
But you refuse to listen and continue to push your own agenda trough some shoddy reasoning.

You have, several times, tried using gameplay and balance elements as proof (example: berserker as dangerous as an abomination)  - despite multiple lore and codex entries and dev statements that contradict you completely.

Lotion, I can read english.  If you analyize those DG quotes carefully including the one you insist on trotting out, he said absolutely nothing and did so in a way that you failed to notice it.  Simply put, the quote you cite doesn't say what you think it does and you don't get to read DG's mind any more than I do.  For your sake, I'd drop DG's quote entirely because it's not helping your case at this point.

-Polaris

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
[quote]
B.S. is not a proper term for this. Elephant S*** may be somewhat closer.<_<
[/quote]

I don't think so.  I don't see anyone else deliberately trying toi make abominations to "test" mages.  That has to increase the abomination rate by a huge amount.[/quote]

They're not trying to "make abvominations". Demons will come to those mages one way or another.
they won't jsut ignore those mages if they walk outside of the Circle.
What the Circle does is try to prepare the mage as best as it can, and do that in a safe enviroment.
If a testing mage becomes an abomination, he is sorrounded by templars and mages that can bring it down fast, with minimal loss of life.
AND any abominations remain contained, thus keeping the countryside safer.




[quote]
Sure they can and I've never said otherwise.  However, they do so by CHOSING to combat a demon in the fade (which is what summoning really is) and losing.  Otherwise the only way a demon can gain control of a mage is if the mage lets him and the incidental evidence outside the circle is that this is very, very rare.  [/quote]

There is no choice in a forced possesion. A mage doesn't have to choose to combat a demon..a demon can simply attack. And a mage is always connected to the fade.
A mage must be always vigilant...and high vigil cannot be mantained 24/7. If anything, possesion is not only a mtter of fortitue, but also luck. If a demon comes to you when you're at your weakest, you're boned.


[quote]
[quote]
Heck, I'd be surprised if the abomination rate doubled, even that seems too much.
10,000%:lol: ....do you evne know how muhc that is?
[/quote]

Sure.  100 fold increase.  Quite plausible given you are putting all mages in one basic and tormenting them (and yes imprisoning them and denying them basic rights is tormenting them) in addition to actually forcefeeding them demons.  Even this might be low, but my hypothetical rate was a 6000% increase which is probably far too low an increase.[quote]

There is no argument that can get to you, is there?
If you're considering 100-fold increase rational, then there is no common ground between us.

I cannot discuss math with someone who thinks 1+1 = fish.



[quote]
I am basing my numbers off of reasonable inferences of the societies we see and the impact or lack thereof of abominations, and comparing that to the observed and apparent abomonation rates generated by the Chantry.

Is it hard numeric evidence?  Of course not.  It's a hypothetical contruction.  But it is one based on plausibility and designed to show that your "logically obvious" conclusion is anything but.[/quote]

Phrase it however you want, but your numebrs are still based on a metric ton of crap.

I am basic my numbers on understanding of basic human psychology, social sciences, logic and knowledge of hte working of possesion..and my numbers tell your number are off by 100000000000000000000000%.



[quote]
[quote]
Nope. I won the case even wihout those numbers and YOU know THAT.
[/quote]

I showed a valid counterexample which means you position is NOT logicall obvious (to say the least).[/quote]

There is nothing valid in your counterexample.



[quote]
[quote]
Heck, evne if there is an overall rise in the number of abomination incidents, there is no indication is hte bigger by such a huge margin.
And most importantly, even if there is a increase of abomination incidents, almost all of them would still happen wihtin the circle, thus STILL making the coutnryside safer.
[/quote]

I PROVED using very reasonable numbers that this didn't have to be the case.  You are going to have to prove that.[/quote]

You proved nothing. You failed basic logic. You faield basic reasoning.

To support your claim EVERY SINGLE MAGE outside of the Cirlce would have to turn itno an abomination (something we know is not true)...no wait..EVEN THAT WOULD NOT BE ENOUGH.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 24 janvier 2011 - 09:45 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

s0meguy6665 wrote...

Sir JK wrote...
In this I read that 1. Mages can turn into abominations against their will.

Seriously, you need no Gaider quote for that. What do you think the Harrowing is for?

As for the rest it's stupid to fear a mage because of that. For the same reason that you wouldn't be afraid of non-mage neighbors because they might sneak into your home and kill you with a knife.

No, it's not stupid.  The "against their will" part is what is so troubling (that, and the fact that abominations can decimate entire villages).

You know your neighbor...You're frinfs. you CAN trust him (and oy cna also lock your home).

You mage friend, as trusting as he is, once he becomes an abominatoin, he is not your friend anymore. If your mother/sister/brother was a mage, no matter how muhc they love you, they can still kill you all.

That kind of unpredictabliliy and explosivity is what makes people fear mages.