1869 réponses à ce sujet

[Avilia]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

Avilia wrote...

We don't know if the Maker exists. From what we know, it can exist as it can't. I have the sensation that even when Bioware will finish the DA cicle, we don't have the certain about its existence.
And Andraste didn't lost. The Andriastian ultimately won their fight against the Tevinter. It's the same thing that happened with Joanne d'Arc. And she died only because she was betrayed.

Andraste DID lose, her followers, however, won

Just for clarity hhh89 wrote that in reply to a reply to my post.

Modifié par Avilia, 17 janvier 2011 - 10:41 .

[upsettingshorts]

The whole mages and Chantry debate boils down to a simple question: Is pre-emptive imprisonment ever justified, and if it is, does the potential threat mages pose to greater society warrant such a policy?

Personally I am not really interested in making an argument one way or the other based upon contemporary, real-world values. So I'm forced to fall back on the answer that, I believe if I were to ask the people of Thedas that question they would say "yes" and "yes." Even the mages themselves are not entirely in favor of total freedom or they wouldn't have multiple political parties with divided opinions on that very issue. There is some movement by Awakenings as represented by Wynne's cameo, but I haven't really seen signs that Thedas outside of Tevinter is ready for or even desires the emancipation of mages.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 17 janvier 2011 - 10:43 .

[Nashiktal]

Awakening also shows the extreme dangers of mages. The Orlesian noble who ruled the black marsh village is a prime example of why mages in leadership is a bad idea,

[White_Buffalo94]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The whole mages and Chantry debate boils down to a simple question: Is pre-emptive imprisonment ever justified, and if it is, does the potential threat mages pose to greater society warrant such a policy?

Personally I am not really interested in making an argument one way or the other based upon contemporary, real-world values. So I'm forced to fall back on the answer that, I believe if I were to ask the people of Thedas that question they would say "yes" and "yes." Even the mages themselves are not entirely in favor of total freedom or they wouldn't have multiple political parties with divided opinions on that very issue. There is some movement by Awakenings as represented by Wynne's cameo, but I haven't really seen signs that Thedas outside of Tevinter is ready for or even desires the emancipation of mages.

No preemptive imprisonment is never justified. No wrongs are done by that person, no consequences need be inflicted

[White_Buffalo94]

Nashiktal wrote...

Awakening also shows the extreme dangers of mages. The Orlesian noble who ruled the black marsh village is a prime example of why mages in leadership is a bad idea,

She was a mage once, and it was only after she was possessed that she became a tyrant

[Nick Fox]

Aldandil wrote...

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

Darkspawn being mages fault cannot be proven, and if it could, those were by the mistakes of the power hungry and possibly demon possessed Archons. The Maker is not real. and Andraste waged war on the Imperium, she deserved what she got. She rolled her dice, she lost

The lack of a Maker can't be proven either  . Sure, you could argue with real world science here, but it's not a certain in a fictional universe. But by all means, innocent until proven guilty. However, if the mages WERE guilty, someone would have noticed, right? There could actually be historical sources recording how they killed a couple of thousands of slaves and what they were trying to achieve. It's not as if all that's said about the Darkspawn is that they came out of the evil of the mages. There is some form of source material behind there somewhere. Maybe not to be taken literally, but it's more than just religious dogma.

It can't be said that there were no abominations in old (or present) Tevinter either. Lack of evidence is not evidence as we all know. Considering that no mention of the rate of mages turning into abominations in other countries has been made, that's not really something we can guess about. We don't even know what the rate is with the Dalish. What is clear, however is that it does happen in Ferelden: Connor, Uldred, that apprentice. The argument that since it happens with our current prevention system, it probably wouldn't happen if we take the system away doesn't sound quite right to me.

Is the darkspawn is a sybol/creation of mans sins? I think it is exactly that it symbolises. If it was mages or others that let their hunger for power let lose this evil on the land is not relly the point of discussion. The moral would be "Dont let your lust for power blind you from seeing whats right or wrong".

I think. Power struggle among different classes will go on and humanity havent learnd anything yet. It should learn how to co op to gain freedom and thereafter understand its wrong to oppress anybody. Now the human kind is a herd animal so we are doomed to repet the same misstakes over and over again, becouse we always look for leaders to see us through hard times and can never be sure they wont missuse their power. the same in the real world imo.

[upsettingshorts]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

No preemptive imprisonment is never justified. No wrongs are done by that person, no consequences need be inflicted

The majority of Thedas, the Chantry, and even a significant number of mages within the Dragon Age universe disagree.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 17 janvier 2011 - 10:46 .

[Heimdall]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Awakening also shows the extreme dangers of mages. The Orlesian noble who ruled the black marsh village is a prime example of why mages in leadership is a bad idea,

She was a mage once, and it was only after she was possessed that she became a tyrant

Really?  I was under the impression she became a pride demon over time by consuming mortal souls.  Where did you hear this.

[Nashiktal]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Awakening also shows the extreme dangers of mages. The Orlesian noble who ruled the black marsh village is a prime example of why mages in leadership is a bad idea,

She was a mage once, and it was only after she was possessed that she became a tyrant

You are only proving my point.

[Blacklash93]

There needs to be some sort of system overseeing the mages. You can't have people so powerful and vulnerable to posession be left unchecked. The Chantry's way of doing it is flawed, however.

Most of my reasons for believing that have already been stated, but the biggest issue I have with the Circle is the Tranquil. Or rather forcing mages who they suspect are too weak to give up their humanity.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 17 janvier 2011 - 10:50 .

[The Elder King]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

The morality of the country is not what is in question here. The question was can Mages be free and be trusted not to become Abominations. Clearly the Tevinter has found a way of allowing every Mage freedom and we don't see Abominations coming out of that place.

*sigh* Yes, and we know how a country full of mages, ruled by mages, turned out.

Um.. It actually turned out well I don't know what point your trying to make..
The only bad things that happened to them was freakin Andraste ruining ****.. That and they're fighting off the Qunari..Successfully I might add.
Tevinter is still extremely powerful despite all this stuff..Arguably more powerful than the other nations.. 

Tevinter isn't the most powerful nation. Orlais is the most powerful nation in Thedas.
And Minrothaurus is described as a shadow of her former glory (codex). Tevinter is enough powerful to stop qunari in the north (I believe for the gap in magical power between qunari and Tevinter), but can't compare herself to Orlais, and maybe Nevarra.
And it wasn't Andraste who had caused the loss of power and influence of the Tevinter. It was the First Blight. If the First Blight never happened, Andraste couldn't even free the Alamarri tribes from Tevinter.

*checks...* Your right. I'm sorry. I got ahead of myself . 

Yet Orlais was booted out of the youngest nation by the most inexperienced people

You mean Nevarra? It wasn't a great war, it was a minor battle as I recall. And Nevarra is quite powerful. Before they became a nation, Nevarra was a powerful city, with an aggressive politics. Probably Nevarra is now the second major human force in Thedas.

Well, if just a battle, there is still the matter that they were also kicked out of Ferelden by FARMERS. FARMERS for crying out loud! The only thing Orlais does right is bards

Except that they stopped the Second Blight
I didn't reads The Stolen Throne, so I can be wrong, but how much forces they had in Ferelden? I think that if they wanted to reconquer Ferelden, they can. (other that Loghain was a tactical genius).
I'm not an Orlais fan, so I don't care of what you sai about them. It is stated in the lore that Orlais is the strongest human nation (I forgot to say that early, don't know if they're strongest than qunari), and it's stated in lore that Tevinter and its capital are only shadow of their former glory.

[Reaverwind]

ReallyRue wrote...

Like I said on a different topic, I think that Wynne's approach is pretty sensible. If mages (and people in general) were wonderful, compassionate individuals, then sure, freedom for all! However, what about when mages start doing things like Avernus or Uldred? The templars are needed to stop those ones (but the templars wouldn't necessarily need to be overseen by the Chantry). If the Chantry was less strict, fewer mages might pull an Uldred, and oppression is never fun. But letting them all run wild and unstoppable seems like a bad idea. My arse might hurt from sitting on that fence, but I think a middle ground is best. The only radical thing I'd suggest is cutting the Chantry out of the equation entirely.

An intriguing suggestion, and and makes me wonder if that's part of what's going on with the Chantry in DA2 - rising nationalism on multiple fronts leading to confrontation with other nations AND the Orlesian-based Chantry.

[upsettingshorts]

The Tranquil remind me of the death of personality sentence from Babylon 5.   If the Chantry/Circle Tower didn't have the option to use the Rite of Tranquility, what would have be their recourse instead? Capital punishment?  It's easy to talk about things you dislike if you don't consider the alternatives.

...and the Circle of Magi kind of reminds me of the PsiCorps from the same show, but in that example the telepaths were self-policing instead of watched by Templar-like guards. Which was... problematic to say the least.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 17 janvier 2011 - 10:50 .

[White_Buffalo94]

Lord Aesir wrote...

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Awakening also shows the extreme dangers of mages. The Orlesian noble who ruled the black marsh village is a prime example of why mages in leadership is a bad idea,

She was a mage once, and it was only after she was possessed that she became a tyrant

Really?  I was under the impression she became a pride demon over time by consuming mortal souls.  Where did you hear this.

Firstly, idk if it would even be possible by simply eating souls to become a demon. Demons take you over by force, or through a deal (which usually involves trickery). Idk any other ways

[Guitar-Hero]

Blacklash93 wrote...

There needs to be some sort of system overseeing the mages. You can't have people so powerful and vulnerable to posession be left unchecked. The Chantry's way of doing it is flawed, however.

The biggest issue I have with the Circle is the Tranquil. Or rather forcing mages who they suspect are too weak to give up their humanity.

Yes, agree with this, mostly.
as the way of doing it now is an optimal way to induce corruption and brainwashing from the chantries side, i was thinking about the girl who says magic is a sin, true peace lies in acceptance of one self and the things we cant control.

[The Elder King]

Avilia wrote...

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

Avilia wrote...

We don't know if the Maker exists. From what we know, it can exist as it can't. I have the sensation that even when Bioware will finish the DA cicle, we don't have the certain about its existence.
And Andraste didn't lost. The Andriastian ultimately won their fight against the Tevinter. It's the same thing that happened with Joanne d'Arc. And she died only because she was betrayed.

Andraste DID lose, her followers, however, won

Just for clarity hhh89 wrote that in reply to a reply to my post.

Yes, it was me. And for me she didn't lose. Howewer, I correct myself. She half-won. Her objectives were to free slaves from Tevinter, spread the Maker's word and destroy Tevinter. She succeded in two of them.

[Quinnzel]

I know this is a srs topic and all but all I can think of right now is MageHawke taking the place of Freddy Mercury in Queen's - I want to Break Free video.

www.youtube.com/watch

I apologise profously...carry on.

Modifié par Quinnzel, 17 janvier 2011 - 10:55 .

[White_Buffalo94]

Nashiktal wrote...

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Awakening also shows the extreme dangers of mages. The Orlesian noble who ruled the black marsh village is a prime example of why mages in leadership is a bad idea,

She was a mage once, and it was only after she was possessed that she became a tyrant

You are only proving my point.

No, I said previously that mages have the willpower to resist demons, she was simply vain. Making her weak. But I see your point, and EVERYONE with power must never be left unchecked, but mages are by far not the most dangerous beings.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Lord Aesir wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Yeah and we know it isn't full proof, Uldred went through a harrowing too.

Indeed, mental fortiitude (itself not a constant) clearly isn't the final word on the matter.

Uldred was a result of the Cicle as much as it was blood magic. The reason why Uldred turned to dark magic was so he could be free. How many people here would pick up a sword and kill people who stole your freedom away from you simply because you were born different.

Uldred is a 50/50 Circle/Dark Magic problem.

And there is absolutely nothing stopping a mage in Tervinter from doing the same thing.  Should the mage want power enough for any reason, there is nothing stopping an Uldred from happening.  Even less, as there isn't a trained anti mage force standing nearby and on hand.

How many times do I have to point out that they've had a stable government for a millenia before it sinks in that they were able to 1. Rule a country. and 2. stop anything from destabalizing it.

Abominations are like talking animals that just want to destroy things. Clearly Uldreds can happen in the Tevinter just like it can happen anywhere else but guess what clearly if and when that has ever happened they've been able to put a stop to it.

Also here's a thought the Philactory (sp) system that the Chantry uses to track down mages the Tevinter probably has too since Philactories(sp) are creations of the ancient Tevinters they probably have been using it for a similar purose. If one of their mages goes nuts they find him/her and kill him/her.

  Just as the Templars have been able to stop it, they were no better and prone to the abuse of their power as much as the chantry with more catastrophic results.

They could rule a country through oppression and were able to keep the abominations from going rampant, that in no way means they were able to do this more or even as effectively as the chantry, who kept such instances highly contained.  It is highly unlikely that they were.  Just because they were able to stop it doesn't mean they did so as effectively as a force specially trained to monitor and neutralize them if they become a threat would.

That's a fair point. However I would also say that Abominations are more likely to happen in a Chantry controlled system than it would under a Tevinter system. The Chantry opresses mages and keeps them locked in a tower. An abomination only happens if a mage agrees to the help of a demon. Mages who have known nothing but captivivty is more likely to make a deal with a demon to gain his/her freedom and risk their lives in the process than a mage that is already free and who only has a little to nothing to gain in making a deal with a demon since they're already free.

So it seems like a situation where the Chantry is probably better at dealing with Abominations but their system makes more abominations and the Tevinter might be less effective at dealing with Abominations but their system doesn't breed very many instances of them.

[Blacklash93]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The Tranquil remind me of the death of personality sentence from Babylon 5.   If the Chantry/Circle Tower didn't have the option to use the Rite of Tranquility, what would have be their recourse instead? Capital punishment?  It's easy to talk about things you dislike if you don't consider the alternatives.

...and the Circle of Magi kind of reminds me of the PsiCorps from the same show, but in that example the telepaths were self-policing instead of watched by Templar-like guards. Which was... problematic to say the least.

Some mages aren't even given the option to go through the Harrowing. The Templars don't even give them a chance. It's go Tranquil or die.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 17 janvier 2011 - 10:57 .

[White_Buffalo94]

hhh89 wrote...

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

The morality of the country is not what is in question here. The question was can Mages be free and be trusted not to become Abominations. Clearly the Tevinter has found a way of allowing every Mage freedom and we don't see Abominations coming out of that place.

*sigh* Yes, and we know how a country full of mages, ruled by mages, turned out.

Um.. It actually turned out well I don't know what point your trying to make..
The only bad things that happened to them was freakin Andraste ruining ****.. That and they're fighting off the Qunari..Successfully I might add.
Tevinter is still extremely powerful despite all this stuff..Arguably more powerful than the other nations.. 

Tevinter isn't the most powerful nation. Orlais is the most powerful nation in Thedas.
And Minrothaurus is described as a shadow of her former glory (codex). Tevinter is enough powerful to stop qunari in the north (I believe for the gap in magical power between qunari and Tevinter), but can't compare herself to Orlais, and maybe Nevarra.
And it wasn't Andraste who had caused the loss of power and influence of the Tevinter. It was the First Blight. If the First Blight never happened, Andraste couldn't even free the Alamarri tribes from Tevinter.

*checks...* Your right. I'm sorry. I got ahead of myself . 

Yet Orlais was booted out of the youngest nation by the most inexperienced people

You mean Nevarra? It wasn't a great war, it was a minor battle as I recall. And Nevarra is quite powerful. Before they became a nation, Nevarra was a powerful city, with an aggressive politics. Probably Nevarra is now the second major human force in Thedas.

Well, if just a battle, there is still the matter that they were also kicked out of Ferelden by FARMERS. FARMERS for crying out loud! The only thing Orlais does right is bards

Except that they stopped the Second Blight
I didn't reads The Stolen Throne, so I can be wrong, but how much forces they had in Ferelden? I think that if they wanted to reconquer Ferelden, they can. (other that Loghain was a tactical genius).
I'm not an Orlais fan, so I don't care of what you sai about them. It is stated in the lore that Orlais is the strongest human nation (I forgot to say that early, don't know if they're strongest than qunari), and it's stated in lore that Tevinter and its capital are only shadow of their former glory.

Well I suppose you haev a point, but note that it took the leadership of one nobody to turn Ferelden against the Archdemon. I'd say Ferelden will eventually become the most powerful country in Thedas

[upsettingshorts]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Some mages aren't even given the option to go through the Harrowing. The Templars don't even give them a chance. It's go Tranquil or die.

And?  I can't tell what you're getting at.  Are you disagreeing?  Agreeing?  Elaborating?

[Reaverwind]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The Tranquil remind me of the death of personality sentence from Babylon 5.   If the Chantry/Circle Tower didn't have the option to use the Rite of Tranquility, what would have be their recourse instead? Capital punishment?  It's easy to talk about things you dislike if you don't consider the alternatives.

...and the Circle of Magi kind of reminds me of the PsiCorps from the same show, but in that example the telepaths were self-policing instead of watched by Templar-like guards. Which was... problematic to say the least.

Some mages aren't even given the option to go through the Harrowing. The Templars don't even give them a chance. It's go Tranquil or die.

Yes, that I have a problem with. It shouldn't even be forced on any mage, and imo, should be abolished.

[upsettingshorts]

Reaverwind wrote...

Yes, that I have a problem with. It shouldn't even be forced on any mage, and imo, should be abolished.

So your implicitly proposed alternative is execution?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 17 janvier 2011 - 11:01 .

[Heimdall]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

That's a fair point. However I would also say that Abominations are more likely to happen in a Chantry controlled system than it would under a Tevinter system. The Chantry opresses mages and keeps them locked in a tower. An abomination only happens if a mage agrees to the help of a demon. Mages who have known nothing but captivivty is more likely to make a deal with a demon to gain his/her freedom and risk their lives in the process than a mage that is already free and who only has a little to nothing to gain in making a deal with a demon since they're already free.

So it seems like a situation where the Chantry is probably better at dealing with Abominations but their system makes more abominations and the Tevinter might be less effective at dealing with Abominations but their system doesn't breed very many instances of them.

Well we can agree on that, that's why I think the best system would maintain Templar vigilance with mages but give the mages far more freedom.  Neither of them works particularly well.