1869 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Sir JK,



I was reading through your post and it was enjoyable as always, but I think we've gotten to a point where we're going to agree and disagree on just about all the information we have. It's not that I don't enjoy your posts, but at this point if I answered you point by point, we'd only be rehasing old stuff and getting the same old points of agreement and disagreement.



That really applies to most everyone. Until DA2 actually comes out for everyone, I suspect that all the information that can be gleaned probably has been.



-Polaris

[Sir JK]

I'm inclined to agree, but thank you to you, Lobsel and everyone else for an enjoyable discussion. I'll lurk for a bit in case some new arguments shows up though.

Modifié par Sir JK, 24 janvier 2011 - 08:30 .

[Melness]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Melness, dont bother. The pro-mages people are so stuck up, that they refuse to listen to even the simplest form of logic from the opposing side.

I am a pro Mage and I do believe that the Circle system isn't perfect.

What I did was merely point out that Haven, the Dalish and Rivain aren't good examples of the flaws of the Circle. Simply because there's a severe lack of information about the two latter ones and the first is no different than a secret blood mage coven, a kind that of organization that tends to end up posessed by demons anyway (see: Ser Otto).

You can't say that the Rivaini or the Dalish system are more efficient at avoiding misuse of magic or posession than the Circles because we don't even know exactly how efficient the Circles are. The only thing you can say is that all three systems work and in the first two you don't have mages trapped.

In fact, given how demons work, the rivaini system should present a great risk of the witches being fooled and posessed. How do they deal with that? We don't know. How do the Dalish deal with that? We don't know. How do the Rivaini or the Dalish, if they actually do, prevent that? We don't know. Are the dalish or rivaini mages truly free or bound by a code of conduct comparable to that of the Circles? Are there enforcers to those rules?

We don't know.

[moilami]

We do not have to show that the system in function work. You, as its opposer, need to show us that it doesn't or at least that there are working (and better) alternatives. You can't, for the simple reason of lacking evidence.

One Dalish Abomination could also mean an entire clan of Dalish being wiped out. An Abomination to the Dalish could be absolutely devastating, so for them even "just" one every 200 years is unacceptable.

You suppose against all evidence that circle and chantry could keep the world safe from abdominations, and you refuse to listen any evidence showing the opposite like Connor incident.

Therefore, I am worried some kind of accident can happen to you. It really makes me worried. Anything can happen anytime. Even some kind of abdomination can pop-up anytime, anywhere, even though you say current system works.

Modifié par moilami, 24 janvier 2011 - 08:42 .

[LobselVith8]

Sir JK wrote...

I'm inclined to agree, but thank you to you, Lobsel and everyone else for an enjoyable discussion. I'll lurk for a bit in case some new arguments shows up though.

Nice discussing the issues with you, too.

Sir JK wrote...

Also... there was 5 casualties. The mage, his apprentice and the three cripsy corpses the abomination was standing over when you meet him... or her... eh.... it?

I think you're thinking about the scene with the Trickester demon that's unleashed from the Circle Tower, where dead bodies are littered near him. The abomination has his dead master (who has a note on him) nearby.

[Melness]

You suppose against all evidence that circle and chantry could keep the world safe from abdominations, and you refuse to listen any evidence showing the opposite like Connor incident.

The Circle system isn't perfect and no matter what method is used, its very likely that there will always be one abomination here and there. But the Connor thing isn't a good example about it because it was a case where the system was completely ignored instead of outclassed.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

/facepalm
How many times must we repeat ourselves? You CAN'T use Haven, Rivain, or the Dalish as examples! You got no data on their societies so you can't say for certain if they got a favorable system. You can't even prove that their system is feasible on a large scale for flying f*** sake!

PS. The Chantry never claims that Abominations are common. Actually they acknowledge they are rare. They do however think the danger an Abomination pose is grave.

I can and I will continue to use those examples because they show a better alternative is possible AND they show a distinct lack of fear of magic which you should otherwise expect if the overall abomination problem were as bad as the chantry likes you to believe.

The difference is between "rare" is "virtually nonexistant" or "vanishingly rare".  If indeed (as seems to be the case!) for societies that treat their mages well, the abomination rate is vanishingly rare (perhaps 1/century and maybe not even there just as an example) then the whole justification of the entire circle system completely falls apart.  Why?  While once per century events are tragic, they don't (and shouldn't) drive everyday concerns because they aren't. 

That's why I keep harping (and will continue to harp) on the apparent lack of abominations outside the circle system.

-Polaris

Of course there are fewer Dalish Abominations. There are fewer Dalish mages! If the Dalish were anywhere near as numerous as the Humans (combined with City Elves), they would also have a lot more Abominations. Yet the Dalish are few, their mages fewer still and Dalish Abominations, as a result there of, even more so.

I state it again. You have given no feasible solution yet. The only alternative, which we know works, is the Qunari's way. None of us want that, I wager.
You are all quick to point to the Dalish, Rivain and Haven as better alternatives, even though you have squat evidence of it being so. Just because they don't fear magic as the Chantry does not equal they do not have problems with it. Perhaps they have simply accepted Abominations as a result of magic.

I'd also again like to point out, that Abominations are not what the Circle are trying to defend people from (at least not only). They are mainly trying to defend people from rogue mages.

[moilami]

Melness wrote...

You suppose against all evidence that circle and chantry could keep the world safe from abdominations, and you refuse to listen any evidence showing the opposite like Connor incident.

The Circle system isn't perfect and no matter what method is used, its very likely that there will always be one abomination here and there. But the Connor thing isn't a good example about it because it was a case where the system was completely ignored instead of outclassed.

What you mean? Connor incident was a perfect example what can happen anytime with this current system. You just can't ignore it as an example. You can't treat people like they would be livestock whose only purpose would be to pay taxes to you.

And enough of this talking. I am a man of action and all this talking just makes me sick. You have showed you have no intentions to change the sick system, and I don't have to see more.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

/facepalm
How many times must we repeat ourselves? You CAN'T use Haven, Rivain, or the Dalish as examples! You got no data on their societies so you can't say for certain if they got a favorable system. You can't even prove that their system is feasible on a large scale for flying f*** sake!

PS. The Chantry never claims that Abominations are common. Actually they acknowledge they are rare. They do however think the danger an Abomination pose is grave.

I can and I will continue to use those examples because they show a better alternative is possible AND they show a distinct lack of fear of magic which you should otherwise expect if the overall abomination problem were as bad as the chantry likes you to believe.

The difference is between "rare" is "virtually nonexistant" or "vanishingly rare".  If indeed (as seems to be the case!) for societies that treat their mages well, the abomination rate is vanishingly rare (perhaps 1/century and maybe not even there just as an example) then the whole justification of the entire circle system completely falls apart.  Why?  While once per century events are tragic, they don't (and shouldn't) drive everyday concerns because they aren't. 

That's why I keep harping (and will continue to harp) on the apparent lack of abominations outside the circle system.

-Polaris

Of course there are fewer Dalish Abominations. There are fewer Dalish mages! If the Dalish were anywhere near as numerous as the Humans (combined with City Elves), they would also have a lot more Abominations. Yet the Dalish are few, their mages fewer still and Dalish Abominations, as a result there of, even more so.

I state it again. You have given no feasible solution yet. The only alternative, which we know works, is the Qunari's way. None of us want that, I wager.
You are all quick to point to the Dalish, Rivain and Haven as better alternatives, even though you have squat evidence of it being so. Just because they don't fear magic as the Chantry does not equal they do not have problems with it. Perhaps they have simply accepted Abominations as a result of magic.

I'd also again like to point out, that Abominations are not what the Circle are trying to defend people from (at least not only). They are mainly trying to defend people from rogue mages.

That doesn't fly.  It's the RATE of abominations that matters and that is normalized against population, but nice try.  If anything the Dalish rate should be more since  there are more mages per capita with the Dalish than with the City Elves (because CIty Elves are subject to be taken to the circle).  Doesn't seem that way though...not at all....

As for protecting against rogue mages, you make this too easy.  The best way to police and defend against criminal mages is a magical police force of which mages would be a prominent part.  You also add in prevention by making mages a respected part of society thus reducing the incentive to go criminal.

Anders puts it quite well that under the current circle system, a mage is often a criminal by simply existing!

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

/facepalm
How many times must we repeat ourselves? You CAN'T use Haven, Rivain, or the Dalish as examples! You got no data on their societies so you can't say for certain if they got a favorable system. You can't even prove that their system is feasible on a large scale for flying f*** sake!

PS. The Chantry never claims that Abominations are common. Actually they acknowledge they are rare. They do however think the danger an Abomination pose is grave.

I can and I will continue to use those examples because they show a better alternative is possible AND they show a distinct lack of fear of magic which you should otherwise expect if the overall abomination problem were as bad as the chantry likes you to believe.

The difference is between "rare" is "virtually nonexistant" or "vanishingly rare".  If indeed (as seems to be the case!) for societies that treat their mages well, the abomination rate is vanishingly rare (perhaps 1/century and maybe not even there just as an example) then the whole justification of the entire circle system completely falls apart.  Why?  While once per century events are tragic, they don't (and shouldn't) drive everyday concerns because they aren't. 

That's why I keep harping (and will continue to harp) on the apparent lack of abominations outside the circle system.

-Polaris

Of course there are fewer Dalish Abominations. There are fewer Dalish mages! If the Dalish were anywhere near as numerous as the Humans (combined with City Elves), they would also have a lot more Abominations. Yet the Dalish are few, their mages fewer still and Dalish Abominations, as a result there of, even more so.

I state it again. You have given no feasible solution yet. The only alternative, which we know works, is the Qunari's way. None of us want that, I wager.
You are all quick to point to the Dalish, Rivain and Haven as better alternatives, even though you have squat evidence of it being so. Just because they don't fear magic as the Chantry does not equal they do not have problems with it. Perhaps they have simply accepted Abominations as a result of magic.

I'd also again like to point out, that Abominations are not what the Circle are trying to defend people from (at least not only). They are mainly trying to defend people from rogue mages.

That doesn't fly.  It's the RATE of abominations that matters and that is normalized against population, but nice try.  If anything the Dalish rate should be more since  there are more mages per capita with the Dalish than with the City Elves (because CIty Elves are subject to be taken to the circle).  Doesn't seem that way though...not at all....

As for protecting against rogue mages, you make this too easy.  The best way to police and defend against criminal mages is a magical police force of which mages would be a prominent part.  You also add in prevention by making mages a respected part of society thus reducing the incentive to go criminal.

Anders puts it quite well that under the current circle system, a mage is often a criminal by simply existing!

-Polaris

... What? Are you saying there are MORE Dalish mages than Human and City Elf mages combined (A city elf taken to the Circle, is still a city elf)? Or what are you actually trying to say?
I have already shown you why a respond unit simply wont be acceptable. By the time a respond unit would actually responds it would usually be far too late. Not acceptable. It will have to be a preemptive unit. There is no way around that.
And again. I am not arguing that mages shouldn't be treated better. I'm arguing they should stay with the Circles. As long as they keep making their fail rebellions, they will just keep giving the Chantry more ammunition. The mages will be far better off if they go for the slow and gradual change, instead of the extreme immediate overhaul. Do you honestly think, that by overthrowing the single most stabilizing organization in Thedas, that the mages will be looked upon favorably by the commoner? It will be worse than Ancient Tevinter. This time the mages won't be spared.

[Lord Cheetah]

moilami wrote...

Melness wrote...

You suppose against all evidence that circle and chantry could keep the world safe from abdominations, and you refuse to listen any evidence showing the opposite like Connor incident.

The Circle system isn't perfect and no matter what method is used, its very likely that there will always be one abomination here and there. But the Connor thing isn't a good example about it because it was a case where the system was completely ignored instead of outclassed.

What you mean? Connor incident was a perfect example what can happen anytime with this current system. You just can't ignore it as an example. You can't treat people like they would be livestock whose only purpose would be to pay taxes to you.

And enough of this talking. I am a man of action and all this talking just makes me sick. You have showed you have no intentions to change the sick system, and I don't have to see more.

Just about the Connor incident, this woman is 1 of he reasons why they can't keep their titles:

http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Baroness

Connor could seem like a nice kid, but if he gets older with mage abilities and gets to be arl, maybe he could go crazy and sacrifice his own people like the Baroness and make sure the templars or anyone can't stop him, the circle just makes sure things like this can't happen.

Mage nobles are just too powerful and nobles may do things unchecked and because the blood mages are the most powerful mages (like the ones from Tevinter) they might want to be 1, although blood mages usually kill people for more power and sometimes the abomination resides in them without them even knowing.
Just imagine if Loghain was a mage, the elves in the alienage, could instead of being sold to the Tevinters (blood mages) just be used to empower a power hungry tyrant even more.

The chantry just protects the people from themselves. They aren't made up by evil conspirators who want to kill everyone, although power is there to be abused and ofcourse there are some in the chantry who do abuse it .

[IanPolaris]

Lotion,



You compared Dalish to City Elves, but we can certainly extend it to humans. If the chantry were correct then *per* *capita* (look this up) there would be more abominations with the Dalish than either City Elves or Humans simply because the Dalish have more mages (since they aren't being winnowed out of the population).



That is pretty clearly not the case though which tells me that Chantry assumptions are wrong or at best suspect....and with it their justification for the circle of magi.



-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Lord Cheetah wrote...

Just about the Connor incident, this woman is 1 of he reasons why they can't keep their titles:

http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Baroness

Connor could seem like a nice kid, but if he gets older with mage abilities and gets to be arl, maybe he could go crazy and sacrifice his own people like the Baroness and make sure the templars or anyone can't stop him, the circle just makes sure things like this can't happen.

Mage nobles are just too powerful and nobles may do things unchecked and because the blood mages are the most powerful mages (like the ones from Tevinter) they might want to be 1, although blood mages usually kill people for more power and sometimes the abomination resides in them without them even knowing.
Just imagine if Loghain was a mage, the elves in the alienage, could instead of being sold to the Tevinters (blood mages) just be used to empower a power hungry tyrant even more.

The chantry just protects the people from themselves. They aren't made up by evil conspirators who want to kill everyone, although power is there to be abused and ofcourse there are some in the chantry who do abuse it .

The baroness was a horrible woman and would have been mage or mundane who clearly had no trouble abusing her power (both noble and magical) to horrid extents.  She also was able to do what she did because she deliberately performed human sacrifice to weaken the veil to make her rituals work better.

In short she was ONE absolutely evil person, but only one, that unfortunately got a lot of local power.  In the greater scheme of things it means little.  You can not structure a system based on an absolutely unique case (the only reason the villagers put up with her as long as they did was because she slew the dragon) and in any event she WAS controlled by the same villagers WITHOUT circle help and overall the problem was contained.

Just as you can not determine how all prisoners should be treated by the very worst example in the Fed's Super-Max, you can not determine how mages should be treated based on one horrific example that happened more than a century ago!

-Polaris

Edit:  That's right.  The VILLAGERS were able to contain one of the most powerful bloodmages and abominations of the time without circle help (or any outside help)!  That tells you right there that with just a little trained magical help (like my magical police/knightlyh order) it need not have been a problem.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 24 janvier 2011 - 10:04 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lotion,

You compared Dalish to City Elves, but we can certainly extend it to humans. If the chantry were correct then *per* *capita* (look this up) there would be more abominations with the Dalish than either City Elves or Humans simply because the Dalish have more mages (since they aren't being winnowed out of the population).

That is pretty clearly not the case though which tells me that Chantry assumptions are wrong or at best suspect....and with it their justification for the circle of magi.

-Polaris

I am not Lotion. I have a profile pic similar to Lotion, so I can see where the confusion originated.

Anyway. We have no proof of wether the Dalish have more mages per head, than humans and city elves. They may or may not have 2 per clan. I'm not actually sure that a Keeper HAS to be a mage. As far as I know all they have to, is know the lore of the Clans and the Dales. A mage keeper just learns a few more tricks. In any case, we have no idea of how big the Dalish population is, nor what their Abomination rate is, so this entire part of discussion is based on speculation. Speculation colored by what we both want it to be, to fit our theories. You can say that there are no Dalish Abominations, I can say there are hundred of Dalish Abominations. None of it can be proven or disproven with the data we got.

And again. The justification of the Circle is NOT Abominations. The justification is magic itself.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lord Cheetah wrote...

Just about the Connor incident, this woman is 1 of he reasons why they can't keep their titles:

http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Baroness

Connor could seem like a nice kid, but if he gets older with mage abilities and gets to be arl, maybe he could go crazy and sacrifice his own people like the Baroness and make sure the templars or anyone can't stop him, the circle just makes sure things like this can't happen.

Mage nobles are just too powerful and nobles may do things unchecked and because the blood mages are the most powerful mages (like the ones from Tevinter) they might want to be 1, although blood mages usually kill people for more power and sometimes the abomination resides in them without them even knowing.
Just imagine if Loghain was a mage, the elves in the alienage, could instead of being sold to the Tevinters (blood mages) just be used to empower a power hungry tyrant even more.

The chantry just protects the people from themselves. They aren't made up by evil conspirators who want to kill everyone, although power is there to be abused and ofcourse there are some in the chantry who do abuse it .

The baroness was a horrible woman and would have been mage or mundane who clearly had no trouble abusing her power (both noble and magical) to horrid extents.  She also was able to do what she did because she deliberately performed human sacrifice to weaken the veil to make her rituals work better.

In short she was ONE absolutely evil person, but only one, that unfortunately got a lot of local power.  In the greater scheme of things it means little.  You can not structure a system based on an absolutely unique case (the only reason the villagers put up with her as long as they did was because she slew the dragon) and in any event she WAS controlled by the same villagers WITHOUT circle help and overall the problem was contained.

Just as you can not determine how all prisoners should be treated by the very worst example in the Fed's Super-Max, you can not determine how mages should be treated based on one horrific example that happened more than a century ago!

-Polaris

Edit:  That's right.  The VILLAGERS were able to contain one of the most powerful bloodmages and abominations of the time without circle help (or any outside help)!  That tells you right there that with just a little trained magical help (like my magical police/knightlyh order) it need not have been a problem.

You know.... The only reason the Baroness (may) be a unique case, is because mages are normally locked up in a tower.
And even though the villagers managed to kill her. The damage she wrought on an entire region is still there. And continues to be there decades after her death.

[Huntress]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Lotion,

You compared Dalish to City Elves, but we can certainly extend it to humans. If the chantry were correct then *per* *capita* (look this up) there would be more abominations with the Dalish than either City Elves or Humans simply because the Dalish have more mages (since they aren't being winnowed out of the population).

That is pretty clearly not the case though which tells me that Chantry assumptions are wrong or at best suspect....and with it their justification for the circle of magi.

-Polaris

I am not Lotion. I have a profile pic similar to Lotion, so I can see where the confusion originated.

Anyway. We have no proof of wether the Dalish have more mages per head, than humans and city elves. They may or may not have 2 per clan. I'm not actually sure that a Keeper HAS to be a mage. As far as I know all they have to, is know the lore of the Clans and the Dales. A mage keeper just learns a few more tricks. In any case, we have no idea of how big the Dalish population is, nor what their Abomination rate is, so this entire part of discussion is based on speculation. Speculation colored by what we both want it to be, to fit our theories. You can say that there are no Dalish Abominations, I can say there are hundred of Dalish Abominations. None of it can be proven or disproven with the data we got.

And again. The justification of the Circle is NOT Abominations. The justification is magic itself.

Here is The Dalish Mages.
A Keeper is a leader of Dalish
elves, both in the spiritual sense, as well as the literal. They are
not thought of as rulers, however. The families within a clan listen to
their Keeper because the Keeper is wise, and it is tradition. Keepers
are also responsible for knowing the clan's ancient lore, and passing it
on to the others in the clan. Without a keeper, the clan's knowledge is
lost forever.
The Keepers are the Dalish mages, though each clan will seldom or
never have more than two fully trained mages. These mages are the
Keeper and the Keeper's apprentice. The apprentice is referred to as the
First (First meaning the next in line of succession).
Though there is only one First in a clan at any time, there can be many
candidates for the apprenticeship.
The Templars are aware that each Dalish clan has a Keeper and so hunt the Dalish. This is one of the reasons why the elves remain nomadic.

[EmperorSahlertz]

So to be a leader amongst the Dalish you HAVE to be a mage? Makes you think.

Just because there can be many candidates, does not equal there are many candidates. Just that they are all screened for potential. Then evidently dumped, since the Clan will never have more than two fully trained mages. Also, when does a Dalish mage qualify as "fully trained"? What tests does the candidates have to go through to be accepted as a First. There are so many unanswered questions remaining, that the Dalish can't be used as an alternative.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Of course there are fewer Dalish Abominations. There are fewer Dalish mages! If the Dalish were anywhere near as numerous as the Humans (combined with City Elves), they would also have a lot more Abominations.

Yet the abominations we often read about have happened because of the Templar/Mage conflict, which has created more abominations due to the situation remaining the same.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Yet the Dalish are few, their mages fewer still and Dalish Abominations, as a result there of, even more so.

I state it again. You have given no feasible solution yet. The only alternative, which we know works, is the Qunari's way. None of us want that, I wager.
You are all quick to point to the Dalish, Rivain and Haven as better alternatives, even though you have squat evidence of it being so.

You mean you continue to ignore the examples of how they're alternatives to the anti-mage approach employed by the Chantry. Kolgrim openly discusses his view and disgust with the Andrastian Chantry's ban on certain magic, Haven has a mage presiding over the local Chantry, Haven also has mages and non-mages fighting side by side, Genitivi has written about Rivain having respect for its seer mages, and the Dalish have mage leaders and accept mages who have run away from the Circle.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Just because they don't fear magic as the Chantry does not equal they do not have problems with it. Perhaps they have simply accepted Abominations as a result of magic.

That must explain their surprising lack of abominations when the Warden heads into the Dalish camp or Haven.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'd also again like to point out, that Abominations are not what the Circle are trying to defend people from (at least not only). They are mainly trying to defend people from rogue mages.

The History of the Circle codex reads differently.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

... What? Are you saying there are MORE Dalish mages than Human and City Elf mages combined (A city elf taken to the Circle, is still a city elf)? Or what are you actually trying to say?

Given their acceptance of mages, they have mages out in the open without templar oversight, but Ferelden and the rest of Thedas hasn't been overrun with abominations. Clearly, their alternative approach seems to work very well for them.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I have already shown you why a respond unit simply wont be acceptable. By the time a respond unit would actually responds it would usually be far too late. Not acceptable. It will have to be a preemptive unit. There is no way around that.

The current system seems to have started a war between Templars and Mages, from what we've seen of DA2, so clearly the old approach will likely continue to fail.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'm arguing they should stay with the Circles. As long as they keep making their fail rebellions, they will just keep giving the Chantry more ammunition.

There's no indication that the Chantry would change it's views on mages or give them any freedoms; this is made especially clear when they say no to the Magi boon requested by the Hero of Ferelden. If the mages are waiting for a change to happen, it'll never come.

Lord Cheetah wrote...

Just about the Connor incident, this woman is 1 of he reasons why they can't keep their titles:

http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Baroness

Connor could seem like a nice kid, but if he gets older with mage abilities and gets to be arl, maybe he could go crazy and sacrifice his own people like the Baroness and make sure the templars or anyone can't stop him, the circle just makes sure things like this can't happen.

Given that Vaughan abducted elven women to be raped in broad daylight, I guess nobody should have power in Thedas, because anybody can abuse a position of authority.

Lord Cheetah wrote...

Mage nobles are just too powerful and nobles may do things unchecked and because the blood mages are the most powerful mages (like the ones from Tevinter) they might want to be 1, although blood mages usually kill people for more power and sometimes the abomination resides in them without them even knowing.
Just imagine if Loghain was a mage, the elves in the alienage, could instead of being sold to the Tevinters (blood mages) just be used to empower a power hungry tyrant even more.

In other words, let's stereotype all mages based on the actions of a few?

Lord Cheetah wrote...

The chantry just protects the people from themselves. They aren't made up by evil conspirators who want to kill everyone, although power is there to be abused and ofcourse there are some in the chantry who do abuse it .

If by protect, you mean they demean and imprison mages simply for being mages to the point where even a victim of rape like Fiona saw her life no better when she was sent to the Circle...

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You know.... The only reason the Baroness (may) be a unique case, is because mages are normally locked up in a tower.
And even though the villagers managed to kill her. The damage she wrought on an entire region is still there. And continues to be there decades after her death.

Not really.  We know that Tevinter is still a magacracy so magi with ruling powers still exist (Dalish Keepers and Chasind Shamans have some ruling powers but don't have the noble authority that the baroness did...but Tevinter Magisters certainly do!)

I also note that this occured in Fereldan during the Orlesian occupation right under the Chantry's own nose.  Yet one more failure to attribute to the Templars.

Sure it was catastrophic to the villagers.  She (the baroness) was a hugely powerful bood-magic abomination and the villagers had either basic or no combat training.  They still managed to kill her and thus keep the problem local.  Just imagine if there had been a true magical support network that could quickly rush in...say mages and warriors equipped to handle blood magic!

Blackmarsh is yet another indictment of the circle system.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So to be a leader amongst the Dalish you HAVE to be a mage? Makes you think.
Just because there can be many candidates, does not equal there are many candidates. Just that they are all screened for potential. Then evidently dumped, since the Clan will never have more than two fully trained mages. Also, when does a Dalish mage qualify as "fully trained"? What tests does the candidates have to go through to be accepted as a First. There are so many unanswered questions remaining, that the Dalish can't be used as an alternative.

That's not true.  Even if you are rejected as a Keeper's first, you still live side by side (note the entry said at LEAST two trained mages not that two was a hard and fast number).  Consider that Zathrien's clan seemed pretty typical, and if you side with the werewolve you encounter in combat at least two other mages (the Halla Herder is definately a mage) besides Zathrien and Lanaya.  Also Anerin is treated and welcomed by the same clan as a full adult with full honors (otherwise Anerin would not be entitled to wear bloodpaint).

Given that Dalish clans are relatively small and given that each has AT LEAST two mages,per capita there are far more Dalish Mages than CE or Human mages, and because the clans are so small by comparison in absolute numbers (and the percentage of mages so great) any abomination that would occure would actually have a much larger impact.  Thus if what the Chantry said was true, we should see fear or at least extreme wariness around any mage that isn't a Keeper or keeper's first yet we do not!

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

Of course the Chantry won't change their ways, when the mages themselves keep confirming the Chantry in their fearful thoughts of magic!

And Haven, is neither feasible, nor desireable. Or are you actually suggesting all mages turn to Dragon worship and Blood Magic? And again, you got no record of Haven's history with Abominations. For all we know, Haven just ahd a lucky year(or even just a lucky day for that matter) with no Abomination. Nor do you know how the non-mages in Haven actually feel about the mages there. You are calling Haven an acceptable alternative, based on zero evidence. I ignore all suggestions of Haven as an alternative, because of that.



Vaughan potentially got himself killed for his act. Had he been a mage, it would probably have been a different story.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I am not Lotion. I have a profile pic similar to Lotion, so I can see where the confusion originated.

Ah, this brings back memories... me making the same mistake and Lotion fan ficc'ing abominations running the Mages Collective...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Anyway. We have no proof of wether the Dalish have more mages per head, than humans and city elves. They may or may not have 2 per clan.

There's no evidence they're limited by two per clan (besides the mention in the fan written DA Wiki which is prone to human error by fans), they have more than two among Zathrian's clan in DA:O, and in WH it's mentioned that former Circle mages have been welcomed into the Dalish clans (as Aenirin was, given his Dalish attire and markings).

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And again. The justification of the Circle is NOT Abominations. The justification is magic itself.

If the Circles never originated as a means of protection, then how valid are the claims that they serve to protect people? Is there any proof that the Chantry controlled Circles are warranted?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You know.... The only reason the Baroness (may) be a unique case, is because mages are normally locked up in a tower.
And even though the villagers managed to kill her. The damage she wrought on an entire region is still there. And continues to be there decades after her death.

And if mages weren't locked up in a tower, there could have been mages able to take her down before she did any damage to the region or harmed any villagers. It goes both ways, Emperor.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So to be a leader amongst the Dalish you HAVE to be a mage? Makes you think.
Just because there can be many candidates, does not equal there are many candidates. Just that they are all screened for potential. Then evidently dumped, since the Clan will never have more than two fully trained mages. Also, when does a Dalish mage qualify as "fully trained"? What tests does the candidates have to go through to be accepted as a First. There are so many unanswered questions remaining, that the Dalish can't be used as an alternative.

I believe Huntress provided the entry for the Dalish from the fan written DA Wiki. I've never seen a canon source that said Dalish clans are limited to two mages and the unofficial DA wiki never specifies where it came by this information (its Epilogue page is also filled with some errors, like the Magi boon).

[Huntress]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So to be a leader amongst the Dalish you HAVE to be a mage? Makes you think.
Just because there can be many candidates, does not equal there are many candidates. Just that they are all screened for potential. Then evidently dumped, since the Clan will never have more than two fully trained mages. Also, when does a Dalish mage qualify as "fully trained"? What tests does the candidates have to go through to be accepted as a First. There are so many unanswered questions remaining, that the Dalish can't be used as an alternative.

They get tested better than any mage thrown in the harrowing by the circle hahahah!

Nothing is going to be an alternative then, not even if you play a  mage warden, mage is categorise as pest/monster/ ect
to any chantry lover.

Even if the dalish history said many candidates, any chantry follower will say, can't be , not possible, wah wah /wrist.

[Kakistos_]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Of course the Chantry won't change their ways, when the mages themselves keep confirming the Chantry in their fearful thoughts of magic!
And Haven, is neither feasible, nor desireable. Or are you actually suggesting all mages turn to Dragon worship and Blood Magic? And again, you got no record of Haven's history with Abominations. For all we know, Haven just ahd a lucky year(or even just a lucky day for that matter) with no Abomination. Nor do you know how the non-mages in Haven actually feel about the mages there. You are calling Haven an acceptable alternative, based on zero evidence. I ignore all suggestions of Haven as an alternative, because of that.

Vaughan potentially got himself killed for his act. Had he been a mage, it would probably have been a different story.

Considering the facts that Haven's Priest was a mage and that other mages were deemed worthy to watch over the dragonlings I would say that they thought very highly of mages.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Of course the Chantry won't change their ways, when the mages themselves keep confirming the Chantry in their fearful thoughts of magic!

People don't like to be thralls, Emperor. You should know from history that people have fought to be freed from their oppressors.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And Haven, is neither feasible, nor desireable. Or are you actually suggesting all mages turn to Dragon worship and Blood Magic?

I don't believe anyone made such a suggestion. The Disciples of Andraste evidently change their harsh treatment of outsiders (likely because an outsider helped them and there's no longer an Urn), stop murdering outsiders, and even welcome outsiders to join their religion.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And again, you got no record of Haven's history with Abominations. For all we know, Haven just ahd a lucky year(or even just a lucky day for that matter) with no Abomination.

That's a lot of speculation that doesn't explain why an entire town of mages and non-mages have no present abominations or why the town is still standing if they weren't able to deal with abominations.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Nor do you know how the non-mages in Haven actually feel about the mages there. You are calling Haven an acceptable alternative, based on zero evidence. I ignore all suggestions of Haven as an alternative, because of that.

The Disciples don't hate mages, despise the Chantry view of magic, and endorse magic. They are an alternative, and we have enough information to compare them to the Andrastian Chantry.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Vaughan potentially got himself killed for his act. Had he been a mage, it would probably have been a different story.

Only if the Warden kills him, Emperor.