1869 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

It's not self-policing to hire a mecenary team to do your job. And the Warden may not even accept the job. What then?

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It's not self-policing to hire a mecenary team to do your job. And the Warden may not even accept the job. What then?

They're not asking a mercenary, they're asking a member of the famed Grey Wardens for assistance. The same order that stops the Blights and defeats Archdemons.

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It's not self-policing to hire a mecenary team to do your job. And the Warden may not even accept the job. What then?

They're not asking a mercenary, they're asking a member of the famed Grey Wardens for assistance. The same order that stops the Blights and defeats Archdemons.

Even if it were mercs, it's still self policing.  When you take away the uniform, dribble, and goo, essentially our modern police forces are bonded mercenary forces on permanent retainer.  Self Policing means the organization of it's own volition acts to solve it's own criminal issues.  Hiring experts paid by you to solve these issues is by definition self-policing.  It's not the only way and it's not the way I'd recommend as a long term solution, but it is.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  I just remembers a voice line in DAO that makes this point explicit.  When you encounter the malificarum in the Brecilian Forest, you specifically state that you are there in behalf of the Mage's Collective.  That means by hiring you, you have agreed to act as a member/representative of the Mages' Collective for the purposes of law enforcement for this particular mission.  In short, they deputized you for this mission.  That makes it a self-policing action.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 27 janvier 2011 - 07:32 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It's not self-policing to hire a mecenary team to do your job. And the Warden may not even accept the job. What then?

They're not asking a mercenary, they're asking a member of the famed Grey Wardens for assistance. The same order that stops the Blights and defeats Archdemons.

He is supplying his swordarm to a contracter. The Grey Warden is a mercenary in that instance. I'm not saying he isn't a top-notch mercenary. Just that he is one. If he accepts the job.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It's not self-policing to hire a mecenary team to do your job. And the Warden may not even accept the job. What then?

They're not asking a mercenary, they're asking a member of the famed Grey Wardens for assistance. The same order that stops the Blights and defeats Archdemons.

He is supplying his swordarm to a contracter. The Grey Warden is a mercenary in that instance. I'm not saying he isn't a top-notch mercenary. Just that he is one. If he accepts the job.

Which is called "deputizing" someone to act on your behalf and it's still self-policing.  In fact deputizing has a very long tradition.

-Polaris

[Silver Dreamer]

Wow, this is a VERY interesting argument! I'm sorry to say that I don't have the time (or endurance) to read almost 60 pages worth of stuff, but I've read the first page and the last 3 pages or so.

That being said, I'm curious about the argument that the mages turn into Abominations specifically because the Chantry puts too much pressure on them. I'm no fan of the chantry myself, but I'm not so sure you can say the Chantry is the ONLY reason mages get possessed.

Didn't Connor became possessed in a desperate bid to make his father better? I know that Isolde didn't want to give him up to the Circle, but I thought the bargain was to make his father well again?

Even so, what's to stop a mage from simply deciding to make a deal to massacre the town for sheer spite of it? Yes, a normal person can do that do, but a normal person can be stopped by traditional military/police forces. Abominations and possessed mages are a whole 'nother ballgame. Self-policing might work, but then again, that would require a whole beaucracy of self-government outside of Ferelden's typical gov (even as a branch of Ferelden's gov).

But lemme hear what you guys think.

Modifié par Silver Dreamer, 27 janvier 2011 - 07:54 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

That's the whole rationale behind the circle in the nutshell.
Let the mages go free, and you're gambling with the lives of both mages and non-mages.
Lock em up, and you're gambling with the lives of only mages (and some templars)

But that oversimplifies the difference.

Without the circle, yes, you're gambling with lives, but they're free lives.

With the circle, you significantly reduce the risks to a great many people, but you do so at the cost of liberty for a significant subset.

I can understand why non-mages would think this was a good idea, but I think they're lying to themselves if they don't think that by doing so they're enslaving the mages for purely selfish reasons.

I'm a big fan of selfishness, but let's be honest about it.

[IanPolaris]

Silver Dreamer wrote...

Wow, this is a VERY interesting argument! I'm sorry to say that I don't have the time (or endurance) to read almost 60 pages worth of stuff, but I've read the first page and the last 3 pages or so.

That being said, I'm curious about the argument that the mages turn into Abominations specifically because the Chantry puts too much pressure on them. I'm no fan of the chantry myself, but I'm not so sure you can say the Chantry is the ONLY reason mages get possessed.

I don't think any of are saying that the Chantry is the only reason mages get possessed, but it does seem to make the chance and opportunity a lot greater.  The real question is this:  Is the greater incident of abominations with thc circle system offset sufficient by a percentage of mages (those that are found) being sent to the circle and imprisoned such that the rate of abominations in society proper is in fact lower than it was without the circle system.  Then you have to ask the followup question:  IF that is true, is the difference sufficient enough to justify the inherently immoral and regressive nature of the circle system.

Fortunately we have several activie societies with mages that lie outside the Chantry's influence, and we have historical records for at least 3-4 more.  When this data is examined we see no social signs that abominations are a sufficient problem to leave what I am calling a "social footprint" (stories about abominations, fear or at least misgivings towards magic in general and mages in particular, etc).  Indeed, whenever mages are accepted into soceity as respected memebers, there seem to be NO fear of abominations and no abominations "footprint" and where they are suppressed, distrusted, and hated (Chantry and Qun) we do see this.

That is a strong leading indicator that the Chantry Circle system may not be as needed as the Templars would like you to believe.

Didn't Connor became possessed in a desperate bid to make his father better? I know that Isolde didn't want to give him up to the Circle, but I thought the bargain was to make his father well again?

If you talk with a lucid Conner just before you kill him (and he accepts that you have to), you find it was a bargin made in treachery and ignorance.  Conner didn't know what a demon was or why making a deal with one was a bad thing to do.  By the time he figured it out, it was far, far too late.  Why didn't Conner know?  Because Jowan was incompetant and it was Jowan that triggered this disaster to begin with (and sure you are going to trust your father's murder on something like this).  Without the circle system, Conner would have been educated from an early age what a demon was and would have realized that 'nice ladies in dreams bearing gifts' are not to be trusted...and the possession would have likely never happened.

In short, the toxic environment that made the possession possible is directly due to the Chantry.

Even so, what's to stop a mage from simply deciding to make a deal to massacre the town for sheer spite of it? Yes, a normal person can do that do, but a normal person can be stopped by traditional military/police forces. Abominations and possessed mages are a whole 'nother ballgame. Self-policing might work, but then again, that would require a whole beaucracy of self-government outside of Ferelden's typical gov (even as a branch of Ferelden's gov).

Soldiers can also stop abominations.  I point out that in the Blackmarshes, untrained Villagers were able to take down one of Thedas' most powerful bloodmages.  Add in a magical police force with both mages and templar-like warriors (and Tevinter uses a system much like this) and you're golden.  As for extra bureaucracy, it is really more expensive than hosting the Chantry on your tab?  I really don't think so.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  I also point out that it's apparenently HARD for demons to take over even mages because such is tantamount to suicide and a person's self-preservation instict will kick in and not let the demon in.  Demons usually have to either trick someone into letting them in or find a mage in desperate straights where self-preservation is no longer an issue (like being hunted to death by templars!)

Modifié par IanPolaris, 27 janvier 2011 - 08:13 .

[IanPolaris]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

That's the whole rationale behind the circle in the nutshell.
Let the mages go free, and you're gambling with the lives of both mages and non-mages.
Lock em up, and you're gambling with the lives of only mages (and some templars)

But that oversimplifies the difference.

Without the circle, yes, you're gambling with lives, but they're free lives.

With the circle, you significantly reduce the risks to a great many people, but you do so at the cost of liberty for a significant subset.

Actually even this point is strongly contested.  There is no actual proof the circle protects anyone and it wasn't even established to protect anyone (see History of the Circle Codex).

I can understand why non-mages would think this was a good idea, but I think they're lying to themselves if they don't think that by doing so they're enslaving the mages for purely selfish reasons.

I'm a big fan of selfishness, but let's be honest about it.

Except it's self-delusional selfishness since there is no evidence (and very strong leading indicators the other way) that is actually protects anyone.  What it does is cement a Chantry monopoly on magic and enchanted items (outside of Orzammar).

-Polaris

[Morroian]

Silver Dreamer wrote...

Didn't Connor became possessed in a desperate bid to make his father better? I know that Isolde didn't want to give him up to the Circle, but I thought the bargain was to make his father well again?

The argument about Connor is that if mages had more rights and freedoms that Isolde wouldn't have felt compelled to hide Connor being a mage and wouldn't have hired someone manifestly unsuited to tutoring him and would have sent him to the Tower (or its equivalent in a new order) for education.

Silver Dreamer wrote...
Even so, what's to stop a mage from simply deciding to make a deal to massacre the town for sheer spite of it? Yes, a normal person can do that do, but a normal person can be stopped by traditional military/police forces. Abominations and possessed mages are a whole 'nother ballgame. Self-policing might work, but then again, that would require a whole beaucracy of self-government outside of Ferelden's typical gov (even as a branch of Ferelden's gov).

Whats to stop a normal person for going on a murder spree? Education, punishment, identification of a deviant or dangerous personality. The difference is a matter of degree but the principles still apply.

As for self policing the chantry/templars are essentially a beauracracy outside govt now anyway. Plus if mages have more freedoms they would become more productive members of society.

[IanPolaris]

[double post]

Modifié par IanPolaris, 27 janvier 2011 - 08:09 .

[moilami]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So you got it, but chose to ignore it? The point was that they did not care wether or not an Abomination or Maleficars were involved. They only care about their own security. I have no reason to believe that the Collective would bother with killing an Abomination, unless it was threatening one of their own, and much less with Maleficars.

They only cared about their own security and that makes them different from the rest of the human race, how?  The collective didn't know that the apprentice had gone abomination, but did know that one of their own was missing.  They hired a crack team (your Warden) to investigate.  That's self-policing.

A member thought that the Malificarum were endangering the security of the collective (and his own).  So the Mage's Collective hired a crack team to take care of it.  Self-Policing.  Honestly "bloodmagic" isn't as evil as you or the Chantry would have everyone believe anyway.  It's the mind-control magic that is the most problematic and it's only a tiny part of bloodmagic.  There isn't a single stanza in the Chant of Light that forbids blood magic.  Not one.

As for the suspected Malificarum, the Collective was protecting it's own members against assult which is yet another police duty.  When you consider that the approved and accepted form of Templar Interrogation vs Malificarum is to run the sword through first and ask questions later, I find it difficult to fault the collective here.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  The Mage's Collective is self-interested (a mage's club).  It is not in the mage's best interests to let an abomination run rampant, so of course they'd try to stop it if they knew about it!  You accuse the Mage's Collective of being self-interested but aren't willing to take that to it's logical conclusion.

At the moment it is not Mage's Collective's job to deal with abdominations because Mages are "criminals" who are supposed be in tower. It is chantry's job to deal with abdominations. Mage's interest could be even to ignore all abdominations since by then it could be argued even more that chantry fails, as it does, and it would be better to release the mages to take care of abdominations and do some self-policing.

By the way just started a mage and it has been very interesting to review what has been said and actually read codexes. Lyrium has been most hilarious this far. It said prolonged use of it causes templars to become paranoids. Just like those two here. One codex said anyone can enter to fade, but mages can enter there at will and be aware of it by using lyrium. Anyone can enter? How it can then be that only mages are suspectible to become possessed? And anyone apparently can enter since Warden's group enter into the fade, even the dog, and get fooled there. I recal Wynne become fooled but Morrigan by the way did not become fooled.

Another interesting thing was this "Black City" and Tevinter mages. Tevinter mages were very much tainted by Lyrium, according to legend, and the freaking "Golden City" later Black City was in Fade and not even on this concrete realm. So Tevinter Mages are blamed of exploring Golden City in the Fade, which then turned to Black. What a terrible crime? Hahaha, this must be a joke. Will be interesting to see what other legends and "chants" tell about it. There must be more "terrible crimes" or I would die of laughing too hard.

Oh yeah and one another thing, every concsious thing in Fade is spirit. Not a demon, but those spirits who mimic negative sides of humans are just called demons. Well, this of course makes sense to split and differentiate things, I just find it funny.

[Sir JK]

IanPolaris wrote...
Actually even this point is strongly contested.  There is no actual proof the circle protects anyone and it wasn't even established to protect anyone (see History of the Circle Codex).

The codex entry does not say specifically that controlling the mages was the only purpose of the circles. Given that regulation was already in order and templars already existed there is even indication that there is more to it than just one Divine's wish for control too.
Nothing says that the circles are not intended to protect people (we do have two knight-commanders saying otherwise however). Just because it is not listed in a single entry describing how the circles where created does not mean it is not a reason behind it.

Especially since the entry says it comes from an entire book describing the relationship between mages, templars and the circle. You'd think there'd be more written in it.

Except it's self-delusional selfishness since there is no evidence (and very strong leading indicators the other way) that is actually protects anyone.  What it does is cement a Chantry monopoly on magic and enchanted items (outside of Orzammar).

-Polaris

There is no proof that the circles does not protect anyone either. Indicators that warrants looking into, yes. But no proof that the circles does not provide any protection.

[Morroian]

Interesting quote in the new Bioware blog: "Some are saying, however, that this needs to change. They remind the world that mages are not controlled by templars everywhere in Thedas: not among the Rivaini witches, the Dalish keepers or the Tevinter magisters… and those societies are, arguably, no worse off."



Which seems to bear out what some of us are saying about those other societies.

[moilami]

Oh my, I knew already without thinking that Harrowing was a complete bull**** test, and now as I went through it that was confirmed.



Chantry sends mages unprepared to the Harrowing. That is bad. The right way to send them would be just to say "ok, so there are all kind of spirits, have fun with them, but don't let them try posses you for any reason or else you die."



That could be easily said because mages go to Fade fully aware of where they are. Other than mages go to Fade unaware.



Now mages fear "Harrowing" madly because there is so much secrecy on what it is about yet they know you can just "disappear" or become lobotomized.



The actual Harrowing test anyway proves nothing of anything. It is just a way to kill mages "legally".

[LobselVith8]

Morroian wrote...

Interesting quote in the new Bioware blog: "Some are saying, however, that this needs to change. They remind the world that mages are not controlled by templars everywhere in Thedas: not among the Rivaini witches, the Dalish keepers or the Tevinter magisters… and those societies are, arguably, no worse off."

Which seems to bear out what some of us are saying about those other societies.

Thank you.

moilami wrote...

Oh my, I knew already without thinking that Harrowing was a complete bull**** test, and now as I went through it that was confirmed. 

Despite what Mouse turned out to be, I never thought he was wrong about his assessment of the Circle and the Chantry (although his red colors seemed to indicate a higher rank of mage than he was pretending to be). This does make me wonder what the independent Circle of Orzammar will be like, who will indeed be "free."

[The Elder King]

I wonder, does the new blog update refer to the old Tevinter Empire or to the new Tevinter? Because I recall that now in Tevinter there is a Circle, but I don't know if they're doing the Harrowing.

Howewer, probably the Harrowing isn't necessary. Though we don't know if Rivaini witches and Dalish keepers do some rituals.

[moilami]

Morroian wrote...

Interesting quote in the new Bioware blog: "Some are saying, however, that this needs to change. They remind the world that mages are not controlled by templars everywhere in Thedas: not among the Rivaini witches, the Dalish keepers or the Tevinter magisters… and those societies are, arguably, no worse off."

Which seems to bear out what some of us are saying about those other societies.

And where might be that blog? I am not sure though do I want to know xD A spoiler issue.

[LobselVith8]

Sir JK wrote...

The codex entry does not say specifically that controlling the mages was the only purpose of the circles. Given that regulation was already in order and templars already existed there is even indication that there is more to it than just one Divine's wish for control too.

But if there were other contributing factors to it, like blood mages or abominations, why weren't those the factors in isolating mages from society? Why instead segregate them because they had a nonviolent protest if they were such a danger to the public?

Sir JK wrote...

Nothing says that the circles are not intended to protect people (we do have two knight-commanders saying otherwise however). Just because it is not listed in a single entry describing how the circles where created does not mean it is not a reason behind it. 

But the "heresay" mention on the Abominations codex page makes it seem like some are pretending that it's because of abominations that the Circles were created, when the History codex (written by a Chantry scholar) reveals their segregation is because of a completely bloodless incident at a cathedral where mages staged a protest. If being a blood mage or an abomination factored into the decision, why was there absolutely no mention? Why were mages basically still a part of society if they were so dangerous? Clearly, templars were around, but mages weren't forcibly isolated until this particular incident - not because of any blood mages or abominations, but because of a nonviolent protest.

Sir JK wrote...

Especially since the entry says it comes from an entire book describing the relationship between mages, templars and the circle. You'd think there'd be more written in it.

Yet we see absolutely no indication that anything else factored into the segregation but this particular incident. Given the Tevinter mages use of blood mage and the like, why not segregate mages immediately? Why only isolate them because of a protest? You can't tell me that people dealt with a string of blood mages and abominations, but then a nonviolent protest was just the last straw.

Sir JK wrote...

There is no proof that the circles does not protect anyone either. Indicators that warrants looking into, yes. But no proof that the circles does not provide any protection.

True, but there's no proof that they do, either.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 27 janvier 2011 - 10:03 .

[Morroian]

moilami wrote...

And where might be that blog? I am not sure though do I want to know xD A spoiler issue.

http://blog.bioware....nd-the-coterie/

Its really just background stuff.

Modifié par Morroian, 27 janvier 2011 - 10:04 .

[moilami]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Interesting quote in the new Bioware blog: "Some are saying, however, that this needs to change. They remind the world that mages are not controlled by templars everywhere in Thedas: not among the Rivaini witches, the Dalish keepers or the Tevinter magisters… and those societies are, arguably, no worse off."

Which seems to bear out what some of us are saying about those other societies.

Thank you.

moilami wrote...

Oh my, I knew already without thinking that Harrowing was a complete bull**** test, and now as I went through it that was confirmed. 

Despite what Mouse turned out to be, I never thought he was wrong about his assessment of the Circle and the Chantry (although his red colors seemed to indicate a higher rank of mage than he was pretending to be). This does make me wonder what the independent Circle of Orzammar will be like, who will indeed be "free."

The question you posed is interesting because what happens to those mages whose physical body gets destroyed while they are in Fade? Mouse said their spirits are left to Fade and it is worse than to not exist at all. Could that be true what it said? If it would be true, then in Fade there could be many spirits who were former mages, and since chantry is kind of feeding the Fade with new spirits of mages, chantry is even more guilty of demon threat in concrete realm.


Edit: And independent circle in Orzammar would be great, certainly a step forward. An alternate mage governed mage school is needed. Templars could be there checking stuff and reporting directly to the King what is happening. But no religious lunatics.

Orzammar is good place too because demons can't posses Dwarves, Dwarves have magic resistance, and it would be interesting for mages to be close to the source of lyrium. Bhelen as King and Dwarf lady as an researcher in the old circle could help mages get another circle in Orzammar.

Actually Orzammar is not good place since with mages and Golems Bhelen would become OP, lyrium should be used only in extreme dire situations, and wasting time in Fade should be avoided first of all. Elves maybe should have some kind of circle but they certainly have already and it would be difficult to expand Dalish Elves circle to include human mages. The current mage tower would be good but only after a reform.

Modifié par moilami, 27 janvier 2011 - 11:35 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually even this point is strongly contested.

I'm trying to frame the distinction in terms as friendly to the segregationists as I can, and I'm doing to that show how appalling that system still is.

Even if we accept all their assumptions about danger and effectiveness, they're still basically locking up the mentally ill.

If we challenge their claims of effectiveness directly, all we do is side-track the discussion into how effective the Circle is at limiting risk.  My point here is that it doesn't matter how effective it is; it's still appalling behaviour.

[Eclipse_9990]

Morroian wrote...

Interesting quote in the new Bioware blog: "Some are saying, however, that this needs to change. They remind the world that mages are not controlled by templars everywhere in Thedas: not among the Rivaini witches, the Dalish keepers or the Tevinter magisters… and those societies are, arguably, no worse off."

Which seems to bear out what some of us are saying about those other societies.

Really? I mean I already knew this. But it's nice that it's actually been stated. 

I mean I understand having Mage kids learn and control magic, but essentially making them slaves to the chantry is a bit much. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 27 janvier 2011 - 10:18 .

[moilami]

Morroian wrote...

moilami wrote...

And where might be that blog? I am not sure though do I want to know xD A spoiler issue.

http://blog.bioware....nd-the-coterie/

Its really just background stuff.

Nice thanks was interesting reading. Gave some interesting information. Now the situation is a good example of those "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" and "who watches the watchmen" phrases.

Got agroed a little bit how there was that “Magic exists to serve mankind, and never to rule over him.” chant in the end xD Since now magic does not exist to serve the mankind but is used as an excuse to rule over mages, and is used as an excuse to slay and imprison mages.


Since it is a phrase day lets put one more:

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
--Arthur C. Clarke's Third Law.



Edit: Regarding Tevinter mages who went to explore Golden City which turned Black as a result in Fade, in dream world, I find very interesting connection to Marie Curie who researched radioactivity, exposing herself in it, much like Tevinter Mages who got tainted by lyrium when they explored Golden City. So who was evil? Has the story been told in detail?

Modifié par moilami, 27 janvier 2011 - 10:59 .

[IanPolaris]

Morroian wrote...

moilami wrote...

And where might be that blog? I am not sure though do I want to know xD A spoiler issue.

http://blog.bioware....nd-the-coterie/

Its really just background stuff.

Oh my!  This is stuff from the Developers that stops just short of tipping their hand completely.  I feel completely vindicated Sir JK in my analysis and reasoning concerning other societies and the "abomination footprint" analysis since (in a nutshell) the Dev's own blog points to essentially this!

-Polaris