The alternative should be to not dangle a mage in front of a demon as a worm on a hook.Upsettingshorts wrote...
Reaverwind wrote...
Yes, that I have a problem with. It shouldn't even be forced on any mage, and imo, should be abolished.
So your implicitly proposed alternative is execution?
I'm saying that mages aren't even given an option there. When the Templars think they know what's best the Mage has no options but to submit or die. They're not even considered people at that point.Upsettingshorts wrote...
Blacklash93 wrote...
Some mages aren't even given the option to go through the Harrowing. The Templars don't even give them a chance. It's go Tranquil or die.
And? I can't tell what you're getting at. Are you disagreeing? Agreeing? Elaborating?
White_Buffalo94 wrote...
Well I suppose you haev a point, but note that it took the leadership of one nobody to turn Ferelden against the Archdemon. I'd say Ferelden will eventually become the most powerful country in Thedas
White_Buffalo94 wrote...
The alternative should be to not dangle a mage in front of a demon as a worm on a hook.Upsettingshorts wrote...
Reaverwind wrote...
Yes, that I have a problem with. It shouldn't even be forced on any mage, and imo, should be abolished.
So your implicitly proposed alternative is execution?
Speaking of which, the Harrowing implies the Chantry makes deals with demons. And in doing so, allow demons to come into the realm
Lord Aesir wrote...
ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
That's a fair point. However I would also say that Abominations are more likely to happen in a Chantry controlled system than it would under a Tevinter system. The Chantry opresses mages and keeps them locked in a tower. An abomination only happens if a mage agrees to the help of a demon. Mages who have known nothing but captivivty is more likely to make a deal with a demon to gain his/her freedom and risk their lives in the process than a mage that is already free and who only has a little to nothing to gain in making a deal with a demon since they're already free.
So it seems like a situation where the Chantry is probably better at dealing with Abominations but their system makes more abominations and the Tevinter might be less effective at dealing with Abominations but their system doesn't breed very many instances of them.
Well we can agree on that, that's why I think the best system would maintain Templar vigilance with mages but give the mages far more freedom. Neither of them works particularly well.
The templars didn't deal with Uldred particularly well. I fail to see why templars would be more effective than PROPERLY TRAINED mages at dealing with abominations. Plus there is still the issue of templar drug addiction.Lord Aesir wrote...
ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
So it seems like a situation where the Chantry is probably better at dealing with Abominations but their system makes more abominations and the Tevinter might be less effective at dealing with Abominations but their system doesn't breed very many instances of them.
Well we can agree on that, that's why I think the best system would maintain Templar vigilance with mages but give the mages far more freedom. Neither of them works particularly well.
Modifié par Morroian, 17 janvier 2011 - 11:19 .
Heretical Sound wrote...
They do? Are you saying Mages have given mandate to rule and dominate? So it wasn't simply a matter of chance and genetics?Eclipse_9990 wrote...
Look, Mages have magic for a reason, and that reason sure as hell wasn't to "serve", power is meant to rule, and control.
Furthermore this line of argument is disturbingly close to Social Darwinism. It is reminiscent of the extremely xenophobic and rascist nationalsim that became prevalent in Europe during the post-war era. However the fact is Mages were born to "rule" then why haven't they done so? Furthermore if this is truly the case then how can you criticise non-Mages for preventing your so called Mage ascendancy? If there is a struggle between the two then Mages have lost and cannot complain in any shape or form about their treatment. It would almost be "hypocritical".
You say Mages were born to control and dominate and this is perfectly acceptable, yet for some reason you don't view the Chantrys' actions in the same light. I would suggest you may have a personal bias but that would be impolite.Hell even the chantry knows, and acknowleges this. They use "control" to keep they're templars leashed to them(I.E making them lyrium addicts). They use faith to control the masses.(people don't question them when the Chantry went off to destroy the Dales, and force Elves into Alienages..). It's all about control with them..
They are able to. Given the Chantry's status as moral compass I doubt any mundanes would resist such a move. Yet they haven't done so. I think we'll leave your claims of bigotry aside, its rather difficult to keep a straight face.Hell if the Chantry was able too, they would probably want kill all Mages at birth.
As are you. There is not sufficient evidence to prove that Andraste was a Mage. If you want your claim of the Chantry's inciting of hatred you will need to cite evidence otherwise you simply making assertions. Although you seem to be quite fond of them.Also it doesnt help that they're constantly, inciting people against mages, and they completely forget(or have completely destroyed evidence of) That Andraste was a mage herself.. They're hypocrites the lot of them..
Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 17 janvier 2011 - 11:17 .
Indeed, of course the only remaining wrinkle would be to iron out the lyrium addiction but I'm not sure how connected that is to Templar abilities so I'm not sure what to do about that.ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
Lord Aesir wrote...
ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
That's a fair point. However I would also say that Abominations are more likely to happen in a Chantry controlled system than it would under a Tevinter system. The Chantry opresses mages and keeps them locked in a tower. An abomination only happens if a mage agrees to the help of a demon. Mages who have known nothing but captivivty is more likely to make a deal with a demon to gain his/her freedom and risk their lives in the process than a mage that is already free and who only has a little to nothing to gain in making a deal with a demon since they're already free.
So it seems like a situation where the Chantry is probably better at dealing with Abominations but their system makes more abominations and the Tevinter might be less effective at dealing with Abominations but their system doesn't breed very many instances of them.
Well we can agree on that, that's why I think the best system would maintain Templar vigilance with mages but give the mages far more freedom. Neither of them works particularly well.
I agree. the best system that I could see is one that we put a drug addict through. The mage has a Philactory of his blood taken when he/she is seen as a mage. Then they can be free to practice magic with some Templar/Mage overseers. If they just want to live their lives than they'd be free to but they'd have to return to a Templar/Mage facility once per month or so to be checked up on by both Templars and Mages to make sure the mage hasn't been possesed. Any mage that doesn't meet that date will be hunted down by the Templars/mages and brought in, questioned, and then dealt with.
That seems like a pretty fair system for both sides.
Modifié par Lord Aesir, 17 janvier 2011 - 11:16 .
Morroian wrote...
The templars didn't deal with Uldred particularly well. I fail to see why templars would be more effective than PROPERLY TRAINED mages at dealing with abominations. Plus there is still the issue of templat drug addiction.Lord Aesir wrote...
ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
So it seems like a situation where the Chantry is probably better at dealing with Abominations but their system makes more abominations and the Tevinter might be less effective at dealing with Abominations but their system doesn't breed very many instances of them.
Well we can agree on that, that's why I think the best system would maintain Templar vigilance with mages but give the mages far more freedom. Neither of them works particularly well.
Lord Aesir wrote...
Indeed, of course the only remaining wrinkle would be to iron out the lyrium addiction but I'm not sure how connected that is to Templar abilities so I'm not sure what to do about that.ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
Lord Aesir wrote...
ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
That's a fair point. However I would also say that Abominations are more likely to happen in a Chantry controlled system than it would under a Tevinter system. The Chantry opresses mages and keeps them locked in a tower. An abomination only happens if a mage agrees to the help of a demon. Mages who have known nothing but captivivty is more likely to make a deal with a demon to gain his/her freedom and risk their lives in the process than a mage that is already free and who only has a little to nothing to gain in making a deal with a demon since they're already free.
So it seems like a situation where the Chantry is probably better at dealing with Abominations but their system makes more abominations and the Tevinter might be less effective at dealing with Abominations but their system doesn't breed very many instances of them.
Well we can agree on that, that's why I think the best system would maintain Templar vigilance with mages but give the mages far more freedom. Neither of them works particularly well.
I agree. the best system that I could see is one that we put a drug addict through. The mage has a Philactory of his blood taken when he/she is seen as a mage. Then they can be free to practice magic with some Templar/Mage overseers. If they just want to live their lives than they'd be free to but they'd have to return to a Templar/Mage facility once per month or so to be checked up on by both Templars and Mages to make sure the mage hasn't been possesed. Any mage that doesn't meet that date will be hunted down by the Templars/mages and brought in, questioned, and then dealt with.
That seems like a pretty fair system for both sides.
Alistair doesn't imply anything, he explicitly says that lyrium isn't needed to use templar talents, "Lyrium just makes the talents more effective. I don't know if it does even that"JamesX wrote...
I think the Whole Fade thing is very smiliar to the Warhammer 40k Universe. Considering the danger of even 1 abomination can wreck, I think mages needs to be regulated.
And Templar abilities is not tied to Lyrium. It is implied by Alastair when he taught it to you, and confirmed when you can use all the abilities without lyrium infusion/addiction.
You'll note I said properly trained mages. I'd contend that the mages weren't properly trained and the apprentices etc were even less.hhh89 wrote...
Morroian wrote...
The templars didn't deal with Uldred particularly well. I fail to see why templars would be more effective than PROPERLY TRAINED mages at dealing with abominations. Plus there is still the issue of templat drug addiction.
Neither mages dealt well with Uldred. They were quite defeated.
If you have full knowledge of what you're up against you stand a better chance. Yes Uldred would have been defeated by the rite but at what cost.hhh89 wrote...
Plus, if you haven't some kind of protection against blood magic, neither templars neither mages could do a lot. Plus, with the Annulment Uldred was probably going to be defeated anyway.
Well there we have it, a reasonable, relatively safe and fair system. If only the people of Thedas were reasonable...ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
That does seem to be the last problem. Alistair believes that lyrium really isn't needed for templar abilities and he thinks they use lyrium so they can get Templars addicted to them and have control over them. If Alistairs right then the lyrium would be easy to solve - simply remove.
If lyrium does have a connection to Templar powers then we could have a situation where mages and dwarfs could fashion magic cancelling devices so whatever power the Templar loses from not taking Lyrium could be supplemented by the echanted items.
If lyrium isn't needed how do they do what is effectively magic?White_Buffalo94 wrote...
Alistair doesn't imply anything, he explicitly says that lyrium isn't needed to use templar talents, "Lyrium just makes the talents more effective. I don't know if it does even that"
Guest_Puddi III_*
Well I do too, but I question whether it's appropriate for the final exam to entail quite such a... heavy risk.Lord Aesir wrote...
I always saw it as more of a final exam, a culmination of all the mage as learned up to that point.filaminstrel wrote...
Lord Aesir wrote...
The harrowing actually seems like a good idea to make sure a mage is strong willed enough to defend themselves from a demon, but after a mage passes it they should be granted much more freedom.
My issue with it is how they specifically bring a demon to the mage's region of the Fade for him to face. I'm not sure this is wise or necessary. I understand that they want to make sure he's ready, particularly because it's not only the mage's safety at stake when he encounters a demon, but there ought to be some way of executing a final test that doesn't involve throwing the self defense student in a back alley to face off against a rapist...
But the priiiiiiiiiiiiiiiize!filaminstrel wrote...
Well I do too, but I question whether it's appropriate for the final exam to entail quite such a... heavy risk.Lord Aesir wrote...
I always saw it as more of a final exam, a culmination of all the mage as learned up to that point.filaminstrel wrote...
Lord Aesir wrote...
The harrowing actually seems like a good idea to make sure a mage is strong willed enough to defend themselves from a demon, but after a mage passes it they should be granted much more freedom.
My issue with it is how they specifically bring a demon to the mage's region of the Fade for him to face. I'm not sure this is wise or necessary. I understand that they want to make sure he's ready, particularly because it's not only the mage's safety at stake when he encounters a demon, but there ought to be some way of executing a final test that doesn't involve throwing the self defense student in a back alley to face off against a rapist...
JamesX wrote...
I think the Whole Fade thing is very smiliar to the Warhammer 40k Universe. Considering the danger of even 1 abomination can wreck, I think mages needs to be regulated.
And Templar abilities is not tied to Lyrium. It is implied by Alastair when he taught it to you, and confirmed when you can use all the abilities without lyrium infusion/addiction.
Make everyone around him/himself insane. Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 18 janvier 2011 - 12:06 .
Morroian wrote...
You'll note I said properly trained mages. I'd contend that the mages weren't properly trained and the apprentices etc were even less.hhh89 wrote...
Morroian wrote...
The templars didn't deal with Uldred particularly well. I fail to see why templars would be more effective than PROPERLY TRAINED mages at dealing with abominations. Plus there is still the issue of templat drug addiction.
Neither mages dealt well with Uldred. They were quite defeated.If you have full knowledge of what you're up against you stand a better chance. Yes Uldred would have been defeated by the rite but at what cost.hhh89 wrote...
Plus, if you haven't some kind of protection against blood magic, neither templars neither mages could do a lot. Plus, with the Annulment Uldred was probably going to be defeated anyway.
hhh89 wrote...
Morroian wrote...
You'll note I said properly trained mages. I'd contend that the mages weren't properly trained and the apprentices etc were even less.hhh89 wrote...
Morroian wrote...
The templars didn't deal with Uldred particularly well. I fail to see why templars would be more effective than PROPERLY TRAINED mages at dealing with abominations. Plus there is still the issue of templat drug addiction.
Neither mages dealt well with Uldred. They were quite defeated.If you have full knowledge of what you're up against you stand a better chance. Yes Uldred would have been defeated by the rite but at what cost.hhh89 wrote...
Plus, if you haven't some kind of protection against blood magic, neither templars neither mages could do a lot. Plus, with the Annulment Uldred was probably going to be defeated anyway.
If for "properly trained" you intend to be trained to fight blood magic and abominations, than I agree with you. The problem is: how mages can be trained to fight blood magic, it their tutors can't use blood magic?
wrote...
If for "properly trained" you intend to be trained to fight blood magic and abominations, than I agree with you. The problem is: how mages can be trained to fight blood magic, it their tutors can't use blood magic?
Modifié par koshindan, 17 janvier 2011 - 11:52 .
Lord Aesir wrote...
Well there we have it, a reasonable, relatively safe and fair system. If only the people of Thedas were reasonable...ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
That does seem to be the last problem. Alistair believes that lyrium really isn't needed for templar abilities and he thinks they use lyrium so they can get Templars addicted to them and have control over them. If Alistairs right then the lyrium would be easy to solve - simply remove.
If lyrium does have a connection to Templar powers then we could have a situation where mages and dwarfs could fashion magic cancelling devices so whatever power the Templar loses from not taking Lyrium could be supplemented by the echanted items.
hhh89 wrote...
Well, I don't think that there wasn't some mages in Ferelden Circle who can use Mana Clash or Fireball.
In a lore description, a blood mage is supposed to be way stronger than a normal mage. Probably the number of blood mages in the Circle was so high (combined with the surprise factor) that the mages can't stand a chance against them.
Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 18 janvier 2011 - 12:11 .
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