1869 réponses à ce sujet

[Silver Dreamer]

Hmm, point taken. Thanks for clearing everything up Polaris and Morroian.



I'll jump into the discussion once I form a solid position.



Meanwhile...



I vote we all go into the Fade and exterminate the Demons. Problem solved.

[Beerfish]

Yup that blog really clears things up:

As they see it, they protect the innocents of the outside world from
magic… but they also protect mages from the outside world, a world that
fears them for very good reasons. It is a templar’s place to watch their
charges for signs of weakness or corruption, and should they find it to
act without hesitation for the good of all. That this occasionally
leads to charges of tyranny and abuse is, according to the Chantry, a
price that must be paid for the security the templars offer.

[Beerfish]

"I don't think any of are saying that the Chantry is the only
reason mages get possessed, but it does seem to make the chance and
opportunity a lot greater.  The real question is this:  Is the greater
incident of abominations with thc circle system offset sufficient by a
percentage of mages (those that are found) being sent to the circle and
imprisoned such that the rate of abominations in society proper
is in fact lower than it was without the circle system.  Then you have
to ask the followup question:  IF that is true, is the difference
sufficient enough to justify the inherently immoral and regressive
nature of the circle."

What sheer and utter nonsense.  There is zero evidence to support that statement.  One can just as easily guess that without the stringent work of the templars and chantry that cases of weak willed mages becoeming abominations would be much much higher.

If the Templars had more control over Uldred he wouldn't have caused the tragedy in the circle.  If Connor had been sent to the circle to control and develop his magic the tragedy in redcliffe probably would have been averted.  As to the 2nd part of that paragraph we simply don't know other than going back to when the templars first came into being and why.  In the end the general population and many lords and preobably mose non mages simply don't care if the mages are restircted more than they should be because if not striclty controlled they see them as a very real danger and for good reason.  Even when being closely monitored there have been more than one abominatiion incident that didn't have much to do with the chantry.

[Morroian]

Beerfish wrote...

Yup that blog really clears things up:

As they see it, they protect the innocents of the outside world from magic… but they also protect mages from the outside world, a world that fears them for very good reasons.

See that reads to me like a rationalisation to convince mages that being locked away is a good thing.

[IanPolaris]

Beerfish wrote...

Yup that blog really clears things up:

As they see it, they protect the innocents of the outside world from
magic… but they also protect mages from the outside world, a world that
fears them for very good reasons. It is a templar’s place to watch their
charges for signs of weakness or corruption, and should they find it to
act without hesitation for the good of all. That this occasionally
leads to charges of tyranny and abuse is, according to the Chantry, a
price that must be paid for the security the templars offer.

Did you bother reading the REST of the entry?  You know the one that says that serious doubts have arisen given the exstance of apparently thriving societies that actually (get this) treat their mages like human beings?

-Polaris

[Raven_26]

Despite what Mouse turned out to be, I never thought he was wrong about his assessment of the Circle and the Chantry (although his red colors seemed to indicate a higher rank of mage than he was pretending to be). This does make me wonder what the independent Circle of Orzammar will be like, who will indeed be "free."

Sadly the circle in Orzammar, isn't popular with the Chantry. If I
remember correctly the Chantry is either threatening (or there are
rumors) that the Chantry is planing a new exalted march.
But I would have love to see how that Circle would have worked out. :happy:

Modifié par Raven_26, 28 janvier 2011 - 03:20 .

[Erani]

Morroian wrote...

moilami wrote...

And where might be that blog? I am not sure though do I want to know xD A spoiler issue.

http://blog.bioware....nd-the-coterie/

Its really just background stuff. 

Thank you. True, just background stuff but I think this made me feel a bit vindicated 

"Power is of two kinds. One is obtained by the fear of punishment  and the other by acts of love. Power based on love is a thousand times more effective and permanent than the one derived from fear of punishment. "<3 

Modifié par Erani, 28 janvier 2011 - 03:48 .

[moilami]

Erani wrote...

Morroian wrote...

moilami wrote...

And where might be that blog? I am not sure though do I want to know xD A spoiler issue.

http://blog.bioware....nd-the-coterie/

Its really just background stuff. 

Thank you. True, just background stuff but I think this made me feel a bit vindicated 

"Power is of two kinds. One is obtained by the fear of punishment  and the other by acts of love. Power based on love is a thousand times more effective and permanent than the one derived from fear of punishment. "<3 

Is power not more like a side-effect in love? Something you would have to handle with care? Or lovingly?


Edit: Dunno but mages hated by society and locked in tower and slain on sight and called with names like "apostate" or "maleficar" would not make mages love the society. There is much more grounds to believe that people would not hate mages and fear them like they would be lunatic ticking timebombs than to believe that mages would obey the chantry like they do now.

Modifié par moilami, 28 janvier 2011 - 04:15 .

[LobselVith8]

Beerfish wrote...

Yup that blog really clears things up:

As they see it, they protect the innocents of the outside world from magic… but they also protect mages from the outside world, a world that fears them for very good reasons. It is a templar’s place to watch their
charges for signs of weakness or corruption, and should they find it to act without hesitation for the good of all. That this occasionally leads to charges of tyranny and abuse is, according to the Chantry, a
price that must be paid for the security the templars offer.

That must explain how the same entry also mentions how the Chantry controlled Circles offer no more protection or security than the mage tolerant societies of the Dalish and Rivain. You know, this entry:

"Some are saying, however, that this needs to change. They remind the world that mages are not controlled by templars everywhere in Thedas: not among the Rivaini witches, the Dalish keepers or the Tevinter magisters… and those societies are, arguably, no worse off. The Templar Order, however, is nothing if not certain of its role. From the glittering White Spire in Val Royeaux the Knight-Vigilant commands the templars to serve the Maker’s will and keep the peace. By the common folk they are seen as self-sacrificing men and women, vigilant warriors that form the first line of defense between humanity and the chaos that once ruled the land during the old Imperium. To the mages they are often seen as oppressors, even well-meaning ones, and the gap between them is growing larger with each passing year."

Beerfish wrote...

"I don't think any of are saying that the Chantry is the only reason mages get possessed, but it does seem to make the chance and opportunity a lot greater.  The real question is this:  Is the greater incident of abominations with thc circle system offset sufficient by a percentage of mages (those that are found) being sent to the circle and imprisoned such that the rate of abominations in society proper is in fact lower than it was without the circle system.  Then you have to ask the followup question:  IF that is true, is the difference
sufficient enough to justify the inherently immoral and regressive nature of the circle."

What sheer and utter nonsense.  There is zero evidence to support that statement.  One can just as easily guess that without the stringent work of the templars and chantry that cases of weak willed mages becoeming abominations would be much much higher.

And yet, the entry above makes it clear that in Rivain and among the Dalish clans, their societies aren't worse off because of the lack of the templars or the Chantry. We also see no abominations in Haven.

Beerfish wrote...

If the Templars had more control over Uldred he wouldn't have caused the tragedy in the circle. 

If the Chantry weren't oppressors of the mages, Uldred never would have lead a march for freedom against them.

Beerfish wrote...

If Connor had been sent to the circle to control and develop his magic the tragedy in redcliffe probably would have been averted. 

If the Chantry never demonized mages and made people see them as "wicked," then Isolde never would have acted the way she did.

Beerfish wrote...

As to the 2nd part of that paragraph we simply don't know other than going back to when the templars first came into being and why.  In the end the general population and many lords and preobably mose non mages simply don't care if the mages are restircted more than they should be because if not striclty controlled they see them as a very real danger and for good reason.  Even when being closely monitored there have been more than one abominatiion incident that didn't have much to do with the chantry.

Most people also don't care about the plight of the elves, so I don't see how general perception really matters here. Nobody here has proved that the Chantry has made anything safer with its Circles, and clearly the entry stating that Rivain and the Dalish aren't worse off for their lack of templars or the Chantry illustrates that the Chantry controlled Circles aren't necessary.

[moilami]

LobselVith8 wrote...



That must explain how the same entry also mentions how the Chantry controlled Circles offer no more protection or security than the mage tolerant societies of the Dalish and Rivain. You know, this entry:

"Some are saying, however, that this needs to change. They remind the world that mages are not controlled by templars everywhere in Thedas: not among the Rivaini witches, the Dalish keepers or the Tevinter magisters… and those societies are, arguably, no worse off. The Templar Order, however, is nothing if not certain of its role. From the glittering White Spire in Val Royeaux the Knight-Vigilant commands the templars to serve the Maker’s will and keep the peace. By the common folk they are seen as self-sacrificing men and women, vigilant warriors that form the first line of defense between humanity and the chaos that once ruled the land during the old Imperium. To the mages they are often seen as oppressors, even well-meaning ones, and the gap between them is growing larger with each passing year."

Beerfish wrote...

"I don't think any of are saying that the Chantry is the only reason mages get possessed, but it does seem to make the chance and opportunity a lot greater.  The real question is this:  Is the greater incident of abominations with thc circle system offset sufficient by a percentage of mages (those that are found) being sent to the circle and imprisoned such that the rate of abominations in society proper is in fact lower than it was without the circle system.  Then you have to ask the followup question:  IF that is true, is the difference
sufficient enough to justify the inherently immoral and regressive nature of the circle."

What sheer and utter nonsense.  There is zero evidence to support that statement.  One can just as easily guess that without the stringent work of the templars and chantry that cases of weak willed mages becoeming abominations would be much much higher.

And yet, the entry above makes it clear that in Rivain and among the Dalish clans, their societies aren't worse off because of the lack of the templars or the Chantry. We also see no abominations in Haven.

I am very sure that if there is so much choise for mages where to live, they would not obey sick insanity of chantry and wait in tower when be called to the war. Many would just move abroad, some would be underground mages fighting against chantry and those most sick templars.

In the end there would be only bad braindead mages in the chantry, and a tear in the veil would say BB to the nation for there would be no mages nowhere near to fix it, much less any competent mages. This is a wild theory but possible to happen, and more probable than mages loving the society and waiting kindly in chantry when called to war.

I mean WTF. What does the mages have to fight for in chantry? Insults, demonisation, third class citizenship, corruption and abuse of power in many ways. Mages get nothing except poop in that chantry system, and as much as someone thinks it would be cool to be in the tower as special person I can say you would not think so if you would have to be in that sick tower for real.

The fact is that mages would become year by year more and more abdomination and unimaginable horrors in the eyes of public because of all lies and propaganda spread by chantry and people who would begin to just parrot what chantry say. Things would go totally out of hand regarding mages. And that's why mages would have no reason to live in such country or do anything for it.


Edit: I should it seems wear my paladin armour and begin to talk like a paladin talks to a templar.

Modifié par moilami, 28 janvier 2011 - 04:57 .

[IanPolaris]

Raven_26 wrote...

Despite what Mouse turned out to be, I never thought he was wrong about his assessment of the Circle and the Chantry (although his red colors seemed to indicate a higher rank of mage than he was pretending to be). This does make me wonder what the independent Circle of Orzammar will be like, who will indeed be "free."

Sadly the circle in Orzammar, isn't popular with the Chantry. If I
remember correctly the Chantry is either threatening (or there are
rumors) that the Chantry is planing a new exalted march.

Yeah sure.  Please tell me another one because this one is hillarious.  In fact a potential Exalted March is being discussed in the DAO forums and the concensus is (and I think it's right) is the Chantry would be sticking it's member in a sausage grinder if they even tried.  The Dwarves of Orzammar (assuming King Bhelen) have an open military alliance with Ferelden and most of the troops of an exalted march would be Orlesian...which means that Fereldan would either be openly or passively hostile.  Then you have to beseige an entire mountain that can not be starved out and where the Dwarves hold ALL of the defensive advantages...and this time the Dwarves will be backed by Golems and likely bloodmagic.

Let's hope for the Chantry's sake the Wardens and Tevinter sit this one out because both are ancient Dwarven allies as well.

It wouldn't suprise me in the slightest if the battly old biddy of a Divine got her panties in a twist and wanted to do an Exalted March on Orzammar, but I think her Knight-Vigalent of the Templars would quickly talk her out of it (especially given that all the precious Lyrium the templars need comes only from Orzmmar and only Orzammar dwarves know how to mine and process it!)

-Polaris

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Pointing out how you failed to provide any proof that the Chantry is doing anything productive with the mages would be boring to you, Lotion. You gloss over all the alternative societies of mages and non-mages living together because it hurts your argument, and you ignore how the codex entries and the storyline have shown how harmful the Chantry demonizing and imprisoning mages has been when innocent people can be murdered because templars thought they were mages (D'Sims) or how time and again we see abominations as a direct result of the Chantry controlled Circles.

In your dreams only.
You failed to provide proof that the Circle system is worse than the "alternatives" (on which you have practicly no information whatsoever).
You ignore codex entreies that go contrary to you.

In other words, I cna easy accuse you for everything you accuse me off ( and have a far better case while at it).

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You're worse than Loghain.
Your obsessive hate for all things Chantry is creepy and boring at the same time. I've seen Yehovas Witnesses and Priests that preach less than you do.

Your failure to articulate an argument for your side shows with your incessant need for personal attacks, Lotion. You have no valid argument to make supporting the Chantry's actions regarding the Circles.

It's an accurate observation. Heck, there isn't a single post of your where you don't preach agaisnt the chantry.
And I notices just now that you so like to use the word "Chantry"...even whan I'm talkign about the "Circle system"...but to you that is the same thing I gather.

Maybe if you tried to sound like an adult I could take you seriously, Lotion, because instead of a compelling argument supporting the Chantry all I see is another personal attack from you.

You are immune to compeling arguments, so why should I even bother anymore?

* blah, blah, blah*
*copy/paste*
*chantry evil*
* broken logic*
*Blah blah*

To speed up the proces:
No.
You misunderstand.
You are wrong.

You have no evidence Uldred had minimal support. You have no evidence that Uldred resorted to demonology for any reason other than trying to remove the Senior Enchanters who had turned against him.

Uldred was losing to mages. If he had numerical superiority, that would hardly happen.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Nope. That was the reason Connor was not sent to the Circle, not the reason he was possesed.
Can you really claim he woudln't have been possesed either way? Or for a different reason?

Would anything have changed if ther was no Chantry circle system? Connor would still be with his mom, Eamon would stil lget sick and hte demon would still go after Connor.

Yeah, if Isolde didn't automatically view mages as evil because the Chantry villified them (and as Jowan said, she is a pious woman) and if there was an effective system in place instead of the ineffective Chantry system, then Connor would have understood what demons were and never made a deal in the first place.

Would he? What kind of idealistic world do you live in anyway?
To simply assume that a person would no be possesed simply because of a different system. HA!
You say "he would know better"...Whos' to say Jowan didn't tell him. Who's to say it would change anything?
Uldred new better. A different system wouldn't hcange Connors desire to heal his dad.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Dude, you were calling me pro-chantry and talkign about how I adore chantry and Wynne in your previous posts. You should remeber what you posted an hour ago!

In other words, I never called you a Chantry fanboy - despite your claim that you simply agreed because it was the correct course, I pointed out you consistently took a pro-Chantry stance when you denied it had anything to do with supporting the Chantry view. You lied about what I said.

Paraphrase. Learn what it means.
Altough you did call me exactly that in one place.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Also, no-one said that mages and non-mages cannot co-exist. The issue is if that's a good idea, and what price one must pay for that. If in order for that to happen, you have to accept occaisnally loosing a few villages to abomination, then yes...it is a issue.

Considering that the Chantry system has this habit of bringing forth abominations (Abominations codex, A Broken Circle), an alternative would be better.

The systems weeds out the weak mages. Abominations never get out.
I fail to see the problem.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Nope. But even if that was true, what does that have to do with  you claiming I changed my argument?
My stance never changed.

You went from claiming that the Chantry system was the best to saying we can't disagree with you because it's all morally grey.

I didn't.
I never changed my stance. You lie.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Focusing on my typo? Dont' you have anything better to do?

Let's stop pretending. Prove his hypothetical numbers make sense.
They make as muhc sense as me saying that Dalish experienced a 10000% increase in reproduction rate after the DA:O boon of a land of their own.

Considering your incessant name-calling and your deplorable behavior, I wish you could take a page from Sir JK and simply disagree without resorting to name calling and personal attacks, Lotion.

Regarding numbers, Ian already provided a hypothetical analysis of this in explanining how the Chantry system could be producing much more abominations than there previously were prior to its existance, and you lost your composure.

His explanation was insufficient and not backed up by actual evidence. 10000% increase is ENORMEOUS. As such, it requres hefty evidence to back it up, not wishfull thinking.

If you uwant me to acknowledge his number, you have to prove that they are reasonable. You can start by proving that my example above is also reasonable.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Because you asked so nicely:

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
There are free mages; are you forgetting about the mages of the Mages Collective, who police themselves?

You mean the bunch full of blood mages and abominations that hires other people to take care of their mess?

Yes, very effective..especially given that they're so spread out, that by the time any action is taken, the blood mage/abomination has already done enough damage.

You also claimed you never said this later on in the thread, and I called you out on it back then, too:

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I never did that. I said that abominations come from ALL mages, and if mage circles can become abominations, so can hedge mages, apostates and members of the Collective.

You said, and I quote:

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
There are free mages; are you forgetting about the mages of the Mages Collective, who police themselves?

You mean the bunch full of blood mages and abominations that hires other people to take care of their mess?

So I'm on the fail train for thinking you changed your screenname, and you completely fan fic'd abominations into the Mages Collective.

And where exactly am I saying that the Mages Collective is run by abominations? I said there are abomination within them...in a sarcastc, overblown tone.

Furthermore, what I said was strong, but not unfounded.
The mage collective quests show that the Collective is not concerned with blood magic (in fact, it protects them) or abominations, and we know of at least one instance happening. Given their position, it's reasonable to assume there are more.

In other words, my statment is no different from yours statements about the "evil Chantry with drug-addicted murderes" and such. It's funny that you of all people take umbarge about me using strong languge, when you are the one constatly usign it.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 28 janvier 2011 - 09:48 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

moilami wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

moilami wrote...
Anyone can cause destruction anywhere except in some very high secure areas. You are again thinking mages are lunatics who are very suspectible to cause destruction anywhere anytime. You should seriously get some real arguments. Your current ones just suck. Unless you get some real arguments consider yourself being failed in defending chantry.

Mages are their own weapon, they can be possesed at any time. They are exceptionaly dangeroud even when not possesed, on a level no non-mage can duplicate.

Can a non-mage fuels spells using your life? Can he mind-control you to kill your family? Can he throw entire towns into the fade and torture you for eaons?
No, he can't.
And that just a regular mage..abominations are worse.

- mages require no weapons
- mages can do incredibly dangerous and twisted stuff
- mages can mind-control
- mages can become possesed at ANY TIME, ANY PLACE (effectively loosign their will..so they will kill you even if they dont' want to do it)

It's exactly the combinations of these factors that make the situation so f***-up.

If you are so scared of mages you shall be put in to the DAMNED TOWER and before that every mage taken out of it, and from that on the tower shall be guarded better than anything else to keep you safe from mages too.

Theorethicly, that could work too, but it's logisticly impossible.

Too many non-mages, so it woudl require far too much infrastructure. Not to mention that regular folk work to produce most anything (food, cloting, etc..), so they can't be locked up

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

That's the whole rationale behind the circle in the nutshell.
Let the mages go free, and you're gambling with the lives of both mages and non-mages.
Lock em up, and you're gambling with the lives of only mages (and some templars)

But that oversimplifies the difference.

Without the circle, yes, you're gambling with lives, but they're free lives.

With the circle, you significantly reduce the risks to a great many people, but you do so at the cost of liberty for a significant subset.

I can understand why non-mages would think this was a good idea, but I think they're lying to themselves if they don't think that by doing so they're enslaving the mages for purely selfish reasons.

I'm a big fan of selfishness, but let's be honest about it.

Survival, is in essence selfish.

Any desire is in essence selfish.

Arne't mages aloso being selfish, wanting to trut around the coutnryside fully knowing that they might loose it and kill poeple?

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...
I don't think any of are saying that the Chantry is the only reason mages get possessed, but it does seem to make the chance and opportunity a lot greater.  The real question is this:  Is the greater incident of abominations with thc circle system offset sufficient by a percentage of mages (those that are found) being sent to the circle and imprisoned such that the rate of abominations in society proper is in fact lower than it was without the circle system.  Then you have to ask the followup question:  IF that is true, is the difference sufficient enough to justify the inherently immoral and regressive nature of the circle system.

Fortunately we have several activie societies with mages that lie outside the Chantry's influence, and we have historical records for at least 3-4 more.  When this data is examined we see no social signs that abominations are a sufficient problem to leave what I am calling a "social footprint" (stories about abominations, fear or at least misgivings towards magic in general and mages in particular, etc).  Indeed, whenever mages are accepted into soceity as respected memebers, there seem to be NO fear of abominations and no abominations "footprint" and where they are suppressed, distrusted, and hated (Chantry and Qun) we do see this.

That is a strong leading indicator that the Chantry Circle system may not be as needed as the Templars would like you to believe.

There is a whole LOT you don't see in the game.
At the end of the day it is irrelevant what you expect to see. You will see what the developers had time enough to implement.

There is no hard proof of your claims.

Didn't Connor became possessed in a desperate bid to make his father better? I know that Isolde didn't want to give him up to the Circle, but I thought the bargain was to make his father well again?

If you talk with a lucid Conner just before you kill him (and he accepts that you have to), you find it was a bargin made in treachery and ignorance.  Conner didn't know what a demon was or why making a deal with one was a bad thing to do.  By the time he figured it out, it was far, far too late.  Why didn't Conner know?  Because Jowan was incompetant and it was Jowan that triggered this disaster to begin with (and sure you are going to trust your father's murder on something like this).  Without the circle system, Conner would have been educated from an early age what a demon was and would have realized that 'nice ladies in dreams bearing gifts' are not to be trusted...and the possession would have likely never happened.

And if Isolde did the smart thing, Connor would be in the circle to learn all about being a mage.
Would that prevent Connor from being possesed? Maybe..mabye not
There's no way to tell really.

Hisotricly, "Don't do X" hasn't really proved to be an effective way of stopping people from doing stupid things, no matter how reasonable it was, so saying that Connor wouldn't be possed wihout the cirlce system is bollocks.

And for another thing - how many mages live because templars come to take them to the Circle, before some angry villager takes matter into his own hands (and no, you can't put the mage hate on the Chantry).
How many mages didn't become abominations becase their parents willingly gave them over to the Circle?

Soldiers can also stop abominations.  I point out that in the Blackmarshes, untrained Villagers were able to take down one of Thedas' most powerful bloodmages.  Add in a magical police force with both mages and templar-like warriors (and Tevinter uses a system much like this) and you're golden.  As for extra bureaucracy, it is really more expensive than hosting the Chantry on your tab?  I really don't think so.

You mean the Baroness?
Didn't those villagers have the help from the Spirit of Justice AND the Warden? And they still drop like flies?

Or are you reffering to the pre-fade rebellion? The same one in which the ENTIRE VILLAGE was destroyed?

[Kakistos_]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

moilami wrote...
Anyone can cause destruction anywhere except in some very high secure areas. You are again thinking mages are lunatics who are very suspectible to cause destruction anywhere anytime. You should seriously get some real arguments. Your current ones just suck. Unless you get some real arguments consider yourself being failed in defending chantry.

Mages are their own weapon, they can be possesed at any time. They are exceptionaly dangeroud even when not possesed, on a level no non-mage can duplicate.

Can a non-mage fuels spells using your life? Can he mind-control you to kill your family? Can he throw entire towns into the fade and torture you for eaons?
No, he can't.
And that just a regular mage..abominations are worse.

- mages require no weapons
- mages can do incredibly dangerous and twisted stuff
- mages can mind-control
- mages can become possesed at ANY TIME, ANY PLACE (effectively loosign their will..so they will kill you even if they dont' want to do it)

It's exactly the combinations of these factors that make the situation so f***-up.

Mages cannot be possessed at any time or any place. In order to be possess a mage, a demon must make a deal with or forcibly take control of a mage, the latter evidently being the more difficult course of action.

Modifié par Kakistos_, 28 janvier 2011 - 10:14 .

[Kakistos_]

Double post.

Modifié par Kakistos_, 28 janvier 2011 - 10:12 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Morroian wrote...
The argument about Connor is that if mages had more rights and freedoms that Isolde wouldn't have felt compelled to hide Connor being a mage and wouldn't have hired someone manifestly unsuited to tutoring him and would have sent him to the Tower (or its equivalent in a new order) for education.

She tought Jowan was suitable. How do you know she would have hired someone suitable?
How do you know Connor still wouldn't be possesed?

The what-if scenarios are ammusing, but pointless. We don't know what would have happen.

And harping ona single incident, thinking that it's the default is also wrong. Even if the Redcliffe thing was 1000% Chantry fault.....ever consider similar incidents there were prevented exactly becase of the Chantry?

[Lotion Soronarr]

moilami wrote...

Oh my, I knew already without thinking that Harrowing was a complete bull**** test, and now as I went through it that was confirmed.

Chantry sends mages unprepared to the Harrowing. That is bad. The right way to send them would be just to say "ok, so there are all kind of spirits, have fun with them, but don't let them try posses you for any reason or else you die."

That could be easily said because mages go to Fade fully aware of where they are. Other than mages go to Fade unaware.

Now mages fear "Harrowing" madly because there is so much secrecy on what it is about yet they know you can just "disappear" or become lobotomized.

The actual Harrowing test anyway proves nothing of anything. It is just a way to kill mages "legally".

You fail to realsie that telling the mage specifics would undermine the whole point of the Harrowing.
It wuld be like giving the cheat sheet.

The Harrowing is a test of both the mages power, his  wits and his personality.

Oh, and hte Herrowing was devised by mages, not the Chantry.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 28 janvier 2011 - 10:19 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
That must explain how the same entry also mentions how the Chantry controlled Circles offer no more protection or security than the mage tolerant societies of the Dalish and Rivain. You know, this entry:

"Some are saying, however, that this needs to change. They remind the world that mages are not controlled by templars everywhere in Thedas: not among the Rivaini witches, the Dalish keepers or the Tevinter magisters… and those societies are, arguably, no worse off. The Templar Order, however, is nothing if not certain of its role. From the glittering White Spire in Val Royeaux the Knight-Vigilant commands the templars to serve the Maker’s will and keep the peace. By the common folk they are seen as self-sacrificing men and women, vigilant warriors that form the first line of defense between humanity and the chaos that once ruled the land during the old Imperium. To the mages they are often seen as oppressors, even well-meaning ones, and the gap between them is growing larger with each passing year."

Arguably...

[Lotion Soronarr]

Kakistos_ wrote...
Mages cannot be possessed at any time or any place. In order to be possess a mage, a demon must make a deal with or forcibly take control of a mage, the latter evidently being the more difficult course of action.

Mages have constant connection with the fade.

They can be possed at any time or any place.

The demon may decide to try possesing at 06:00 in the morning or 16:00 in the afternoon.
Th mage doesn't have to be in any special place for a demon to try.

[moilami]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Kakistos_ wrote...
Mages cannot be possessed at any time or any place. In order to be possess a mage, a demon must make a deal with or forcibly take control of a mage, the latter evidently being the more difficult course of action.

Mages have constant connection with the fade.

They can be possed at any time or any place.

The demon may decide to try possesing at 06:00 in the morning or 16:00 in the afternoon.
Th mage doesn't have to be in any special place for a demon to try.

(Just another RP solution.)

In the morning, the sun rises and the nature bathes in golden rays. Four horsemen in shiny armours ride to a circle of magi, unmount, and greet the Knight-Commander. "Greetings. By the order of King you will be transferred to the King's Honorary Guard. Say farewell to the circle and prepare to leave with us before the night falls."

[The Elder King]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Kakistos_ wrote...
Mages cannot be possessed at any time or any place. In order to be possess a mage, a demon must make a deal with or forcibly take control of a mage, the latter evidently being the more difficult course of action.

Mages have constant connection with the fade.

They can be possed at any time or any place.

The demon may decide to try possesing at 06:00 in the morning or 16:00 in the afternoon.
Th mage doesn't have to be in any special place for a demon to try.

Are you sure? I believe that the mages have to be in the Fade to be possessed. I can be wrong though.