1869 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

JrayM16 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Does the rabbit hate the eagle for being an eagle? Should he?

Of course not. The rabbit should fear the eagle, yes, but it's not the eagle's fault he's an eagle.

With mages and non-mages, we basically have a society wherein different groups of people have vastly different capabilities. You can treat them all equally, and thus let the natural order of things establish itself, or you can impose restrictions on some of them.

This isn't unlike how human farmers will deploy pesticides to kill insects.

If you're okay with one group of humans treating another group like they're insects, then you can reasonably support the imprisonment of mages.

I have no idea what this means.

[The Elder King]

Big Blue Car wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
We don't really know how much templars hate the mages.

Who cares how the Templars feel? If I'm kicking you repeatedly in the nuts whilst saying "God I feel awful about doing this!" over and over, will you be in any less pain? Hells no you won't.

To be fair though, you can't entirely blame the Templars as they are literally kept in line with addictive substances and religious dogma in a way that is tantamount to chemical and sociological slavery (the chantry are dicks).

Not every templars torture mages, and not every templars are bad people.
Plus, not every Chantry members are dicks. Your response is for me at the same level of the mage haters. The world is formed by good people, bad people, genious, idiots, etc. In every organizations there are this type of person. In my opinion a lot of lowrank priestess and brothers are good people. Like templars.

[Big Blue Car]

No when a religious group massively persecutes and imprisons people because of the way they were born regardless of how innocent they are that group of people are evil dicks, and everyone who doesn't oppose that group for the sake of human dignity, much less live as a member of it, is also a terrible human.

[The Elder King]

Big Blue Car wrote...

No when a religious group massively persecutes and imprisons people because of the way they were born regardless of how innocent they are that group of people are evil dicks, and everyone who doesn't oppose that group for the sake of human dignity, much less live as a member of it, is also a terrible human.

But the decision of imprisoning them isn't taken by all of them. It was taken by few. And the common people don't know how badly mages are threated. Mind that the Harrowing is a secret like the Joining, and the mages generally don't travel outside the tower.
Plus, there's the possibility that the decision of forming the Circles was taken by the mages.
Look, I believe that imprisoning the mages are a cruel thing. The Circle is a good place where to learn magic, but the mages should have the possibility to travel outside, LIVE outside. But in the case that the mages and their allies manage to win over the Chantry, make a massacre of templars and Chantrist put them on the same level of the ones who imprisoned them.

Modifié par hhh89, 28 janvier 2011 - 10:54 .

[moilami]

hhh89 wrote...

moilami wrote...

Big Blue Car wrote...

God dammit you nerds look at all this. The mages are awesome, the Chantry are dicks, sometimes mages become superdicks and need to be put down, end of story.

Mages should be free yo, the invisible hand of the free magical market means that they should be allowed to use their abilities.

Could not say it much better. I would just add to that freedom is not a crime, and therefore mages are not guilty for what they are. Also would be great to slay those chantry people and ruin their plans to dominate and torture innocent people. Mostly templars because those are who do the actual killing. Those who breach my less militant chars would leave be. But no mage hater templar is going to live if it depends on my char.

We don't really know how much templars hate the mages. Not that I'm saying that all the templars are ok with mages.
Plus, it's really unfair Big Blue Car to call all the chantry "dicks". It's the same thing of person naming all mages evil. Both the things are false. There are evil mages (which are a minorities) and there are bastard templars and Chantry members (altough I don't know how much of them are).

It can be there are many templars who don't hate mages. But they still think it is their duty to kill innocent mages. So they explicitly believe mages should be killed, and they live to do it. That's why they should be killed first for you can't wait untill a templar kill an innocent mage. Mage hater templars are much worse. They do not only believe innocent mages should be killed but they live to kill them because they hate mages. They get no mercy.

There is third group of templars too who believe mages should be killed only if a mage becomes corrupt. I am pretty fine with them, but that doesn't mean I would agree with them when a mage is corrupt.

[Big Blue Car]

What would be wrong with your worst case scenario? The chantry are a religious group, not controlled by a government or beholden to anybody, who are using their military might to persecute, imprison and murder innocent people. If mages could overpower them who cares, the Chantry have no right to do what they do beyond their ability to enforce it anyway.

Also ignorance is no excuse for supporting evil.

Modifié par Big Blue Car, 28 janvier 2011 - 11:03 .

[The Elder King]

moilami wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

moilami wrote...

Big Blue Car wrote...

God dammit you nerds look at all this. The mages are awesome, the Chantry are dicks, sometimes mages become superdicks and need to be put down, end of story.

Mages should be free yo, the invisible hand of the free magical market means that they should be allowed to use their abilities.

Could not say it much better. I would just add to that freedom is not a crime, and therefore mages are not guilty for what they are. Also would be great to slay those chantry people and ruin their plans to dominate and torture innocent people. Mostly templars because those are who do the actual killing. Those who breach my less militant chars would leave be. But no mage hater templar is going to live if it depends on my char.

We don't really know how much templars hate the mages. Not that I'm saying that all the templars are ok with mages.
Plus, it's really unfair Big Blue Car to call all the chantry "dicks". It's the same thing of person naming all mages evil. Both the things are false. There are evil mages (which are a minorities) and there are bastard templars and Chantry members (altough I don't know how much of them are).

It can be there are many templars who don't hate mages. But they still think it is their duty to kill innocent mages. So they explicitly believe mages should be killed, and they live to do it. That's why they should be killed first for you can't wait untill a templar kill an innocent mage. Mage hater templars are much worse. They do not only believe innocent mages should be killed but they live to kill them because they hate mages. They get no mercy.

There is third group of templars too who believe mages should be killed only if a mage becomes corrupt. I am pretty fine with them, but that doesn't mean I would agree with them when a mage is corrupt.

I believe that many templars don't kill innocent mages. Not every mage that escapes the Circle is going to be killed. Anders is an example for that. And the templar that caught Jowan didn't kill him, even if they were sure that Jowan was a blood mage (though in my opinion this isn't a sufficient reason to kill him). They generally are instructed to kill the Maleficars. The problem is that a lot of templars decide that a mage is a Maleficare even if is merely an apostate. This are surely some bastard templars. Howewer, in the case of Aenerin, there's the possibility for him to return to the Circle. Gregoir isn't a bad templare.
We have to remember that the First Enchanter has some power (in Ferelden at least. Probably in Kirkwall he/she doesn't have a lot of power)

Modifié par hhh89, 28 janvier 2011 - 11:07 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Big Blue Car wrote...

What would be wrong with your worst case scenario? The chantry are a religious group, not controlled by a government or beholden to anybody, who are using their military might to persecute, imprison and murder innocent people. If mages could overpower them who cares, the Chantry have no right to do what they do beyond their ability to enforce it anyway.

I applaud your strength of conviction.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...

*SNIP*

I find it funny that when I confronted you with the grey choice argument, you first tried to deny taht your theory made it everything but grey.
When that failed, you resorted to "the devs are human, maybe they made a mistake and showed us too much information of the Chantry evil".
Here you efftively assumed that they not only made a mistake, but that the mage-chantry sitation was written to not be truly grey in the first place (and then not allowing player acess to information would grey it out a bit).

Yet, when it comes to your "social footprint" theory, not even once did it cross your mind that the devs might have made a mistake here? That maybe, they didn't have time to implement it, or that the dalish/heaven quests were focused on other things, so they jsut missed it?

Interesting hypocrisy - to assume that the devs made a mistake, or wrote a setting that isn't truly grey, whenever your arguments are threatened.
That you made a mistake, or that the mistake might favor the opposition - that never crossed your mind....

[Big Blue Car]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Big Blue Car wrote...

What would be wrong with your worst case scenario? The chantry are a religious group, not controlled by a government or beholden to anybody, who are using their military might to persecute, imprison and murder innocent people. If mages could overpower them who cares, the Chantry have no right to do what they do beyond their ability to enforce it anyway.

I applaud your strength of conviction.

If the mages became an institutionalised evil like the Chantry I'd moan about them too, to be fair. 

[The Elder King]

Big Blue Car wrote...

What would be wrong with your worst case scenario? The chantry are a religious group, not controlled by a government or beholden to anybody, who are using their military might to persecute, imprison and murder innocent people. If mages could overpower them who cares, the Chantry have no right to do what they do beyond their ability to enforce it anyway.

Also ignorance is no excuse for supporting evil.

It's not because they are controlled by some government (though you have to win in the Thedas to have no problem with Orlais and other nations). The problem is that isn't right, especially because a lot of the people that compose the low ranks of the chantry are innocent people. You can't just repair a crime committing another crim in my opinion.  It's the same thing that the Chantry did for reveange on the magister.
On the matter of ignorance, the mages kept secret the horror of this system. A lot of people believe that the system is good for the mages, and even a lot of mages.
And the Circle idea isn't totally bad. A place where mages can learn how to use magic is good. Simply it hasn't to be a prison, the mages have to be freely to move outside, and there are to be another method to test mages, not the Harrowing.

[moilami]

hhh89 wrote...

moilami wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

moilami wrote...

Big Blue Car wrote...

God dammit you nerds look at all this. The mages are awesome, the Chantry are dicks, sometimes mages become superdicks and need to be put down, end of story.

Mages should be free yo, the invisible hand of the free magical market means that they should be allowed to use their abilities.

Could not say it much better. I would just add to that freedom is not a crime, and therefore mages are not guilty for what they are. Also would be great to slay those chantry people and ruin their plans to dominate and torture innocent people. Mostly templars because those are who do the actual killing. Those who breach my less militant chars would leave be. But no mage hater templar is going to live if it depends on my char.

We don't really know how much templars hate the mages. Not that I'm saying that all the templars are ok with mages.
Plus, it's really unfair Big Blue Car to call all the chantry "dicks". It's the same thing of person naming all mages evil. Both the things are false. There are evil mages (which are a minorities) and there are bastard templars and Chantry members (altough I don't know how much of them are).

It can be there are many templars who don't hate mages. But they still think it is their duty to kill innocent mages. So they explicitly believe mages should be killed, and they live to do it. That's why they should be killed first for you can't wait untill a templar kill an innocent mage. Mage hater templars are much worse. They do not only believe innocent mages should be killed but they live to kill them because they hate mages. They get no mercy.

There is third group of templars too who believe mages should be killed only if a mage becomes corrupt. I am pretty fine with them, but that doesn't mean I would agree with them when a mage is corrupt.

I believe that many templars don't kill innocent mages. Not every mage that escapes the Circle is going to be killed. Anders is an example for that. And the templar that caught Jowan didn't kill him, even if they were sure that Jowan was a blood mage (though in my opinion this isn't a sufficient reason to kill him). They generally are instructed to kill the Maleficars. The problem is that a lot of templars decide that a mage is a Maleficare even if is merely an apostate. This are surely some bastard templars. Howewer, in the case of Aenerin, there's the possibility for him to return to the Circle. Gregoir isn't a bad templare.
We have to remember that the First Enchanter has some power (in Ferelden at least. Probably in Kirkwall he/she doesn't have a lot of power)

That's why I differentiated templars to three different groups. But the main thing is that templars are devoted mage killers while mages are not devoted to kill any people. Why so much sympathy and acceptance to those who are devoted to kill innocent people while victims get none? Police is always doing the right thing, you must always trust and respect police? Even then when the "police" is specifically targeting one group of people because of their inherit abilities?

[Big Blue Car]

Well, yeah an environment that mages can choose to go to to help them control their power and even use it to better their society (a Heal spell in every village anyone) would be fantastic. Educating mages about the fade and its dangers, again fantastic.



The point is that for reasons mentioned above the Chantry are irredeemable facists and should be torn down.

[upsettingshorts]

ITT: Big Blue Car misuses the term "fascism" in various forms.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Mages fight with each other in the tower and the Templars aren't going to get involved especially when one side is openly and forcibly trying to kick them out?  Really?

Not immediately.
The mages gathered to discuss the issue in one of the rooms....at the top of the tower if I'm not mistaken.

It wil ltake a bit of time before the templars get up there..especially if the mages barred the doors.
So in the inital moments when the battle broke out, I hardly believe there were many templars in the room, if any.

You're full of BS.
I never changed my position. That is a undesputable, provable FACT.

If that's the case then you have nothing to worry about if people do read this thread from the beginning....

By all means...let them read.

I did see the quote where you do seem to say that the Mages Collective is run by Maleficar and Abominations, Lotion.  Again, I invite everyone to read the thread in it's entirety and be the judge.

Sarcasm escapes you.

This is the internet.  If you are being sacrastic, you need to say so.  You never did.

It 's a sarcasit exageration, that should have been clear enough. Such things are used on these forum (and especially on this toopic) so often that it shouldn't really surprise anyone.
At least that's how I interpreted it, because otheriwise it would indicate some people have exceptionally strong and biased oppinions (when poeple call all mages/templars monsters/murders/drug addicts)

It's up to you to show the circle tower system is justified given it's undeniable moral and social costs.

I disagree.
And I already showed the logic behind it indicates increased security.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

ITT: Big Blue Car misuses the term "fascism" in various forms.

He'd be better off with "oppressor" rather than "fascist".

And then he'd be right.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 28 janvier 2011 - 11:22 .

[moilami]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

ITT: Big Blue Car misuses the term "fascism" in various forms.

He'd be better off with "oppressor" rather than "fascist".

And then he'd be right.

This is why "loaded" words is better not use at all. First, they are unnecessary, and second, it goes quicly to meta arguing about definitions of definitions.

[Big Blue Car]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

ITT: Big Blue Car misuses the term "fascism" in various forms.

ITT: that doesn't happen at all. Believe it or not 'fascism' doesn't only apply to governments, any group that uses physical and political force to unjustly persecute others in the pursuit of their own idea of a particular societal status quo are, in fact, a group of fascists. 

[The Elder King]

moilami wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

moilami wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

moilami wrote...

Big Blue Car wrote...

God dammit you nerds look at all this. The mages are awesome, the Chantry are dicks, sometimes mages become superdicks and need to be put down, end of story.

Mages should be free yo, the invisible hand of the free magical market means that they should be allowed to use their abilities.

Could not say it much better. I would just add to that freedom is not a crime, and therefore mages are not guilty for what they are. Also would be great to slay those chantry people and ruin their plans to dominate and torture innocent people. Mostly templars because those are who do the actual killing. Those who breach my less militant chars would leave be. But no mage hater templar is going to live if it depends on my char.

We don't really know how much templars hate the mages. Not that I'm saying that all the templars are ok with mages.
Plus, it's really unfair Big Blue Car to call all the chantry "dicks". It's the same thing of person naming all mages evil. Both the things are false. There are evil mages (which are a minorities) and there are bastard templars and Chantry members (altough I don't know how much of them are).

It can be there are many templars who don't hate mages. But they still think it is their duty to kill innocent mages. So they explicitly believe mages should be killed, and they live to do it. That's why they should be killed first for you can't wait untill a templar kill an innocent mage. Mage hater templars are much worse. They do not only believe innocent mages should be killed but they live to kill them because they hate mages. They get no mercy.

There is third group of templars too who believe mages should be killed only if a mage becomes corrupt. I am pretty fine with them, but that doesn't mean I would agree with them when a mage is corrupt.

I believe that many templars don't kill innocent mages. Not every mage that escapes the Circle is going to be killed. Anders is an example for that. And the templar that caught Jowan didn't kill him, even if they were sure that Jowan was a blood mage (though in my opinion this isn't a sufficient reason to kill him). They generally are instructed to kill the Maleficars. The problem is that a lot of templars decide that a mage is a Maleficare even if is merely an apostate. This are surely some bastard templars. Howewer, in the case of Aenerin, there's the possibility for him to return to the Circle. Gregoir isn't a bad templare.
We have to remember that the First Enchanter has some power (in Ferelden at least. Probably in Kirkwall he/she doesn't have a lot of power)

That's why I differentiated templars to three different groups. But the main thing is that templars are devoted mage killers while mages are not devoted to kill any people. Why so much sympathy and acceptance to those who are devoted to kill innocent people while victims get none? Police is always doing the right thing, you must always trust and respect police? Even then when the "police" is specifically targeting one group of people because of their inherit abilities?

I don't sympathize for templars, like I don't sympathize for mages. I believe that an organization with anti-magic power isn't bad, if they cooperate with the mages (and I believe that you, moilami, has a similar though). Of couse it can't be as it is now, it has to be changes, and to do that the Chantry has so lose ALL of its political power.

 The problem with the Chantry organization is that they aren't simply a religious organization. Is that they have a lot of political power and influence, and they don't attend what their prophet said.
Andraste never said that mages should be imprisoned. Neither the Maker. The Andrastrian wanted to have reveng against the magister and the magic, so they cut the mage's freedom.
I want a revolution, and that the mages aquire freedom. I want the Chantry to lose all of its power. But simply killing everyone which is a part of the Chantry is for me a wrong thing. I believe that going from an extreme to another is wrong. I want a new Chantry, based on the cult of the Maker, who doesn't see mages as inferior humans, but as humans.
Of course that to do this you have to fight. And kill. But it's not necessary to kill everyone. Anyway, that's my opinion, I really hate the extremist solution. And I respect the opinions of everyone, of both sides. I don't agree on extremist solutions, which are both the Circle imprisonment system and the whole "kill all Chantry", but I can understand and respect their opinion

[moilami]

hhh89 wrote...

moilami wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

moilami wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

moilami wrote...

Big Blue Car wrote...

God dammit you nerds look at all this. The mages are awesome, the Chantry are dicks, sometimes mages become superdicks and need to be put down, end of story.

Mages should be free yo, the invisible hand of the free magical market means that they should be allowed to use their abilities.

Could not say it much better. I would just add to that freedom is not a crime, and therefore mages are not guilty for what they are. Also would be great to slay those chantry people and ruin their plans to dominate and torture innocent people. Mostly templars because those are who do the actual killing. Those who breach my less militant chars would leave be. But no mage hater templar is going to live if it depends on my char.

We don't really know how much templars hate the mages. Not that I'm saying that all the templars are ok with mages.
Plus, it's really unfair Big Blue Car to call all the chantry "dicks". It's the same thing of person naming all mages evil. Both the things are false. There are evil mages (which are a minorities) and there are bastard templars and Chantry members (altough I don't know how much of them are).

It can be there are many templars who don't hate mages. But they still think it is their duty to kill innocent mages. So they explicitly believe mages should be killed, and they live to do it. That's why they should be killed first for you can't wait untill a templar kill an innocent mage. Mage hater templars are much worse. They do not only believe innocent mages should be killed but they live to kill them because they hate mages. They get no mercy.

There is third group of templars too who believe mages should be killed only if a mage becomes corrupt. I am pretty fine with them, but that doesn't mean I would agree with them when a mage is corrupt.

I believe that many templars don't kill innocent mages. Not every mage that escapes the Circle is going to be killed. Anders is an example for that. And the templar that caught Jowan didn't kill him, even if they were sure that Jowan was a blood mage (though in my opinion this isn't a sufficient reason to kill him). They generally are instructed to kill the Maleficars. The problem is that a lot of templars decide that a mage is a Maleficare even if is merely an apostate. This are surely some bastard templars. Howewer, in the case of Aenerin, there's the possibility for him to return to the Circle. Gregoir isn't a bad templare.
We have to remember that the First Enchanter has some power (in Ferelden at least. Probably in Kirkwall he/she doesn't have a lot of power)

That's why I differentiated templars to three different groups. But the main thing is that templars are devoted mage killers while mages are not devoted to kill any people. Why so much sympathy and acceptance to those who are devoted to kill innocent people while victims get none? Police is always doing the right thing, you must always trust and respect police? Even then when the "police" is specifically targeting one group of people because of their inherit abilities?

I don't sympathize for templars, like I don't sympathize for mages. I believe that an organization with anti-magic power isn't bad, if they cooperate with the mages (and I believe that you, moilami, has a similar though). Of couse it can't be as it is now, it has to be changes, and to do that the Chantry has so lose ALL of its political power.

 The problem with the Chantry organization is that they aren't simply a religious organization. Is that they have a lot of political power and influence, and they don't attend what their prophet said.
Andraste never said that mages should be imprisoned. Neither the Maker. The Andrastrian wanted to have reveng against the magister and the magic, so they cut the mage's freedom.
I want a revolution, and that the mages aquire freedom. I want the Chantry to lose all of its power. But simply killing everyone which is a part of the Chantry is for me a wrong thing. I believe that going from an extreme to another is wrong. I want a new Chantry, based on the cult of the Maker, who doesn't see mages as inferior humans, but as humans.
Of course that to do this you have to fight. And kill. But it's not necessary to kill everyone. Anyway, that's my opinion, I really hate the extremist solution. And I respect the opinions of everyone, of both sides. I don't agree on extremist solutions, which are both the Circle imprisonment system and the whole "kill all Chantry", but I can understand and respect their opinion

The problem with chantry is that chantry is led by religious fanatics. You can't negotiate and reason with fanatics. And religious fanatical groups can only be changed from inside. That means identifying who are the biggest  fanatics and eliminating them so that the change can become possible, that is help the tide turn. Mages on the other hand doesn't have to restrict how they fight against such a force because it is directly personal. If mages are attacked as a group, then mages are permitted to attack that group as a group.

There are other ways too. Like not selling lyrium to the chantry. It is up to Dwarves. Or stealing lyrium going to chantry. There are many ways. However it doesn't change the fact that one can, if he so decides, fight for mages. You can be an observer, but you can not be forced to be an observer.


Edit: I would prefer to see demonstrations around chantries. It could help lol.

Modifié par moilami, 29 janvier 2011 - 12:05 .

[The Elder King]

I didn't say you don't have to fight. I specifically said that to change things you have to fight and kill. I don't agree on killing innocent priests, that ARE in the Chantry. Thinking that all the Chantry are evil and opressors is absurd in my opinion. As you said, the chantry is led by religious fanatics.

You can always change the thinks if you win the war. A lot of mages believe in the Maker. If they win the fight against the Chantry, they (and their allies) could form a new Chantry.

Edit: howewer this new Chantry has to be formed by mages and non-mages. The mages have to be free and have the same rights of other people, they don't have to be superior of other people.

Modifié par hhh89, 29 janvier 2011 - 12:05 .

[Big Blue Car]

hhh89 wrote...
A lot of mages believe in the Maker.

It's called Stockholm's Syndrome.

[The Elder King]

Big Blue Car wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
A lot of mages believe in the Maker.

It's called Stockholm's Syndrome.

If the Maker exists, he certainly didn't create mages only to see them been oppressed. The Chantry isn't the synonimous of the Maker's will, and neither of what Andraste said.

[moilami]

hhh89 wrote...

I didn't say you don't have to fight. I specifically said that to change things you have to fight and kill. I don't agree on killing innocent priests, that ARE in the Chantry. Thinking that all the Chantry are evil and opressors is absurd in my opinion. As you said, the chantry is led by religious fanatics.

You can always change the thinks if you win the war. A lot of mages believe in the Maker. If they win the fight against the Chantry, they (and their allies) could form a new Chantry.

Edit: howewer this new Chantry has to be formed by mages and non-mages. The mages have to be free and have the same rights of other people, they don't have to be superior of other people.

Then you just don't kill innocent priests. It is simple as that. You just wait a miracle happens and chantry changes in one way or another. I said I don't kill preachers either. I said I kill those who are devoted to kill innocent mages. Maybe you should make a third group which would be devoted to kill those who are devoted to kill those who are devoted to kill innocent mages.*

And I have said long time ago in other thread that there should be in every chantry at least one mage as an example how mages are and who would give free healing to the people. You go ask chantry do that?



Edit: (I recommend you name it "Chantry Lovers".)

Modifié par moilami, 29 janvier 2011 - 12:19 .

[The Elder King]

Maybe I have problem to explain my opinion. I said that a revolution is NECESSARY. The reference of don't kill innocente people was for Big Blue Car.
And I want a NEW chantry, formed by the mages and their allies, with both mages and non mages.

This is my third post saying that the fight is necessary to gain freedom, and that the Chantry has to completely change WITH a fight, not simply asking for change.

edit: thanks for the suggestion.

Modifié par hhh89, 29 janvier 2011 - 12:23 .