1869 réponses à ce sujet

[JohnCena94]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

That does seem to be the last problem. Alistair believes that lyrium really isn't needed for templar abilities and he thinks they use lyrium so they can get Templars addicted to them and have control over them. If Alistairs right then the lyrium would be easy to solve - simply remove.

If lyrium does have a connection to Templar powers then we could have a situation where mages and dwarfs could fashion magic cancelling devices so whatever power the Templar loses from not taking Lyrium could be supplemented by the echanted items.

Well there we have it, a reasonable, relatively safe and fair system.  If only the people of Thedas were reasonable...

Who knows maybe in DA2 when we have to pick sides in the Templar/Mage war maybe there's a middle ground like this that we can choose from. If possible I'd always go for that outcome.

As for why Templars should be used in the process there's two reasons. 1) Having a 100% mage controlled saftey orginization would make the population of Thedas worried deeply. Templars are seen as being fair people and having them in the process would grant the solution alot of validity. 2) When dealing with and Abomination that has alot more magic to use than the average mage having a Templar and a mage working together would be the best bet on taking that threat out qucikly. The Templar would be able to cancel out all the magical attacks the Abomination throws at them while the mage can fire spell and take the thing down.

I would go with middle ground to unless I was a mage, I would not be a nice mage

[Morroian]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

As for why Templars should be used in the process there's two reasons. 1) Having a 100% mage controlled saftey orginization would make the population of Thedas worried deeply. Templars are seen as being fair people and having them in the process would grant the solution alot of validity. 2) When dealing with and Abomination that has alot more magic to use than the average mage having a Templar and a mage working together would be the best bet on taking that threat out qucikly. The Templar would be able to cancel out all the magical attacks the Abomination throws at them while the mage can fire spell and take the thing down.

Mages can cancel magic attacks and they don't need to be addicted to lyrium to do it.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Mages bound by the Chantry: A safe life on your knees.



Mages unbound from the Chantry: An unsafe life on your feet.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Well, I don't think that there wasn't some mages in Ferelden Circle who can use Mana Clash or Fireball.
In a lore description, a blood mage is supposed to be way stronger than a normal mage. Probably the number of blood mages in the Circle was so high (combined with the surprise factor) that the mages can't stand a chance against them.

Well mages pretty much have the Templar abilities, sometimes even better..
Mana Clash > Holy Smite
Anti Magic Burst > Area Cleanse
Plus they have Spell Shield, and Dispel Magic.. 

Why shouldn't Mages be able to hunt/regulate other mages? Blood Mage or no. 

There is a gameplay situation like you just listed but there's a lore situation which says that Templars are the best there are at canceling out magic. That with their heath advantage makes them perfect for going against mages. In a lore situation where an Abomination has been seen being stronger than both Mages and Templars when they're alone if they worked together than than they'd have the perfect one two punch.

Plus there's an issue where people won't trust mages to govern themselves. Templars will put the worries to rest because if the Templars trust  the mages enough to work side by side with them than people won't put up a fuss.

[Heimdall]

Morroian wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

As for why Templars should be used in the process there's two reasons. 1) Having a 100% mage controlled saftey orginization would make the population of Thedas worried deeply. Templars are seen as being fair people and having them in the process would grant the solution alot of validity. 2) When dealing with and Abomination that has alot more magic to use than the average mage having a Templar and a mage working together would be the best bet on taking that threat out qucikly. The Templar would be able to cancel out all the magical attacks the Abomination throws at them while the mage can fire spell and take the thing down.

Mages can cancel magic attacks and they don't need to be addicted to lyrium to do it.

They can also be captured and turned into abominations, and have the abomination cancel their abilities the same way.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Morroian wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

As for why Templars should be used in the process there's two reasons. 1) Having a 100% mage controlled saftey orginization would make the population of Thedas worried deeply. Templars are seen as being fair people and having them in the process would grant the solution alot of validity. 2) When dealing with and Abomination that has alot more magic to use than the average mage having a Templar and a mage working together would be the best bet on taking that threat out qucikly. The Templar would be able to cancel out all the magical attacks the Abomination throws at them while the mage can fire spell and take the thing down.

Mages can cancel magic attacks and they don't need to be addicted to lyrium to do it.

They can also be captured and turned into abominations, and have the abomination cancel their abilities the same way.

/\\ This. The best way to take out an Abomination is a combination of Templar and Mage working together.

Modifié par ISpeakTheTruth, 18 janvier 2011 - 12:23 .

[White_Buffalo94]

Morroian wrote...

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

Alistair doesn't imply anything, he explicitly says that lyrium isn't needed to use templar talents, "Lyrium just makes the talents more effective. I don't know if it does even that"

If lyrium isn't needed how do they do what is effectively magic?

It isn't magic, the Chantry makes that clear. And lyrium is definitely not needed. If you have ever played as a templar, you'd know that you don't need to guzzle a bottle of lyrium potion to allow you to keep using your powers or otherwise lie in the fetal position

[White_Buffalo94]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Well, I don't think that there wasn't some mages in Ferelden Circle who can use Mana Clash or Fireball.
In a lore description, a blood mage is supposed to be way stronger than a normal mage. Probably the number of blood mages in the Circle was so high (combined with the surprise factor) that the mages can't stand a chance against them.

Well mages pretty much have the Templar abilities, sometimes even better..
Mana Clash > Holy Smite
Anti Magic Burst > Area Cleanse
Plus they have Spell Shield, and Dispel Magic.. 

Why shouldn't Mages be able to hunt/regulate other mages? Blood Mage or no. 

Not to mention the mage abilities you listed are infinitely better

[SnakeStrike8]

Should mages be free?

We know what happened in Redcliffe: a single, untrained mage massacred an entire garrison and almost laid waste to a whole village.

Do all mages do that? Probably not, but as long as the risk exists, Chantry supervision is justified. They don't exactly cut the tongues from mages or put them on leashes; they just gather them all in one place so they can teach each other the dangers of uncontrolled magic. I don't think it was the chantry's intention to turn the world against mages. People are simply always mistrustful of things they don't understand, templars included.

[JohnCena94]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

Morroian wrote...

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

Alistair doesn't imply anything, he explicitly says that lyrium isn't needed to use templar talents, "Lyrium just makes the talents more effective. I don't know if it does even that"

If lyrium isn't needed how do they do what is effectively magic?

It isn't magic, the Chantry makes that clear. And lyrium is definitely not needed. If you have ever played as a templar, you'd know that you don't need to guzzle a bottle of lyrium potion to allow you to keep using your powers or otherwise lie in the fetal position

The Chantry is evil I think people who side with them could at best say it is a lesser one compared to the Tevinter. Alistair to me is saying the Chantry wants them on a leash, For instance I cant rember her name but Alistair's grand cleric almost arrested Dunncan for conscripting him even though Alistair would have been a horrible one just so facts like that wouldnt be made known wide spread if Alistair talked.

[Big I]

The way mages are treated is unjust. They're taken from their homes and families as children with no choice in the matter; they're watched and tracked their whole lives even if they do nothing wrong; and any children they have are taken from them by the Chantry.


The Harrowing and the Rite of Tranquility are sick. You throw young mages to demons who want to eat them or scare them into becoming emotionless robots. Abominations must be guarded against, but there has to be a better way; the Chantry doesn't even look.


The whole Chantry approach to magic is wrong. They're prejudiced against mages - they branded Anders maleficar even though he did nothing wrong apart from run away, and at Ostagar the revered mother didn't even want them there. In a society without advanced science or medicine you have people who can treat illness with magic - and they're all locked away in a prison on the other side of the country.


Finally, the prohibition against blood magic is unwaranted. There are spells in the Entropic school that do the same thing as blood magic (e.g. Horror and Nightmare for mind control, Drain Life for blood sacrifice), except that blood magic can do truly amazing things like extend Avernus's life, stave off his Call, and allow Zathrian to bind and summon powerful and benevolent spirits.


I don't have a problem with Templars acting as magic cops, making sure no one becomes an abomination. I have a problem with that policing taking the form of mindless tyranny.

[JohnCena94]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Finally, the prohibition against blood magic is unwaranted. There are spells in the Entropic school that do the same thing as blood magic (e.g. Horror and Nightmare for mind control, Drain Life for blood sacrifice), except that blood magic can do truly amazing things like extend Avernus's life, stave off his Call, and allow Zathrian to bind and summon powerful and benevolent spirits.


I don't have a problem with Templars acting as magic cops, making sure no one becomes an abomination. I have a problem with that policing taking the form of mindless tyranny.

Except blood magic requires blood and it doesnt always have to be yours, My Hawke given a option will use it but my mage is also going to be EVIL. That I actually agree with on the Chantrys front, for instance Tevinter lords had slaves to sacrfice on stand by, does that sound right to you?

[Big I]

SnakeStrike8 wrote...

Should mages be free?
We know what happened in Redcliffe: a single, untrained mage massacred an entire garrison and almost laid waste to a whole village.
Do all mages do that? Probably not, but as long as the risk exists, Chantry supervision is justified. They don't exactly cut the tongues from mages or put them on leashes; they just gather them all in one place so they can teach each other the dangers of uncontrolled magic. I don't think it was the chantry's intention to turn the world against mages. People are simply always mistrustful of things they don't understand, templars included.

A mage hidden from the Circle. Why? Because of discriminatory laws against mages (unable to inherit lands and title). The Chantry approach to mages makes things worse.


Of course mages should be policied - everyone should. Even ordinary people have the power to be violent and destructive, that's why any society needs law enforcement. But policing shouldn't go hand in hand with tyranny.

[Ahglock]

Dhiro wrote...


Normal people can't shoot fireballs. Normal people can't be posessed by a evil creature and kill they loved ones. Not all mages are bad, but you know that eventually a mage bad enough or greed enough will rise and it will be chaos.

Normal people are capable of quite a bit.  Read a history book to see the laundry list of evil we have done.  Geez how far back have we been doing biological warfare as a quick example.  We've killed millions through that going back to well before the middle ages.  Magic is just one more way to cross the line.  Sure say no one can use biological warfare, but saying no one can have an IQ above 100 without going to a interment camp seems a bit off. 


I only got to page 3, so if this was asked in this or the previous thread sorry. 

For people who follow comics, specifically marvel comics.  Where did you fall on the whole civil war story arc, did you have a similar or the same stance with mages in dragon age?

Me.  Civil war, if it was just a you have to register if you want to be a super hero I'd of been for the registration/training.  Gaining super powers doesn't mean you should be allowed to be a vigilante. So saying no vigilanties, you have to join the government to fight crime is fine with me. But since it was a all people with super powers are forced into registering and forced into training I was against it.

Mages:  I am for them being free, but if they want t use there magic for combat of any kind they need training/control.  If they are fine being a farmer who happens to be a mage, no need for training/control, don't mess with them unless they actually do cross the line. 

[Big I]

JohnCena94 wrote...
Except blood magic requires blood and it doesnt always have to be yours, My Hawke given a option will use it but my mage is also going to be EVIL. That I actually agree with on the Chantrys front, for instance Tevinter lords had slaves to sacrfice on stand by, does that sound right to you?

If the Warden is a blood mage, he doesn't go around sacrificing his companions for a stat boost. Blood magic can use human sacrfifice, but it doesn't need it. If you have a problem with mages killing people, simply make it illegal for them to murder. I assume this is already the case.

Modifié par LookingGlass93, 18 janvier 2011 - 01:18 .

[Morroian]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

It isn't magic, the Chantry makes that clear. And lyrium is definitely not needed. If you have ever played as a templar, you'd know that you don't need to guzzle a bottle of lyrium potion to allow you to keep using your powers or otherwise lie in the fetal position

The chantry are unreliable. And lyrium reacts differently with normal humans to mages. 

[HiroVoid]

I think we should all just do what the Qunari do. They don't seem to have problems with abominations, and their government has allowed them to create superior weapons compared to the rest of Thedas.

[White_Buffalo94]

SnakeStrike8 wrote...

Should mages be free?
We know what happened in Redcliffe: a single, untrained mage massacred an entire garrison and almost laid waste to a whole village.
Do all mages do that? Probably not, but as long as the risk exists, Chantry supervision is justified. They don't exactly cut the tongues from mages or put them on leashes; they just gather them all in one place so they can teach each other the dangers of uncontrolled magic. I don't think it was the chantry's intention to turn the world against mages. People are simply always mistrustful of things they don't understand, templars included.

ONLY because Isolde, the childs mother, does not overturn Connor to the Mages. And ONLY because Isolde allowed an apostate to teach her mage son instead of doing the proper thing and send him for training.
Isolde should be executed, but I saved her for Eamon... damn... Woman

[White_Buffalo94]

JohnCena94 wrote...

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

Morroian wrote...

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

Alistair doesn't imply anything, he explicitly says that lyrium isn't needed to use templar talents, "Lyrium just makes the talents more effective. I don't know if it does even that"

If lyrium isn't needed how do they do what is effectively magic?

It isn't magic, the Chantry makes that clear. And lyrium is definitely not needed. If you have ever played as a templar, you'd know that you don't need to guzzle a bottle of lyrium potion to allow you to keep using your powers or otherwise lie in the fetal position

The Chantry is evil I think people who side with them could at best say it is a lesser one compared to the Tevinter. Alistair to me is saying the Chantry wants them on a leash, For instance I cant rember her name but Alistair's grand cleric almost arrested Dunncan for conscripting him even though Alistair would have been a horrible one just so facts like that wouldnt be made known wide spread if Alistair talked.

I agree

[JohnCena94]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

JohnCena94 wrote...
Except blood magic requires blood and it doesnt always have to be yours, My Hawke given a option will use it but my mage is also going to be EVIL. That I actually agree with on the Chantrys front, for instance Tevinter lords had slaves to sacrfice on stand by, does that sound right to you?

If the Warden is a blood mage, he doesn't go around sacrificing his companions for a stat boost. Blood magic can use human sacrfifice, but it doesn't need it. If you have a problem with mages killing people, simply make it illegal for them to murder. I assume this is already the case.

Good point but if they dont forbid and it becomes wide spread then all mages probly wouldnt stop there and it would be easy for them to take it a step further and alot harder to stop them from doing so.

[Avilia]

SnakeStrike8 wrote...

Should mages be free?
We know what happened in Redcliffe: a single, untrained mage massacred an entire garrison and almost laid waste to a whole village.
Do all mages do that? Probably not, but as long as the risk exists, Chantry supervision is justified. They don't exactly cut the tongues from mages or put them on leashes; they just gather them all in one place so they can teach each other the dangers of uncontrolled magic. I don't think it was the chantry's intention to turn the world against mages. People are simply always mistrustful of things they don't understand, templars included.

Redcliffe happened because:

1.  Isolde is pious and has been taught that magic is evil
2.  Isolde felt the need to hide the fact that her child is a mage due to 1.
3.  Mages are not able to be normal members of society and  hold titles so 1 and 2
4.  Isolde didn't want her child taken away from her due to 1 2 and 3

All of which might have been prevented if the Chantry didn't feel the need to treat mages as if they're likely to turn into abominations just by waking up the morning.  If there were some less restrictive way of  having mages come together to learn and not a way that forces them to abandon or be taken from their prior lives and constantly watched by Templars.

I don't know what the solution is, but as I said earlier, as far as I'm concerned nearly all the problems with mages in game are caused by Chantry oversight, not prevented by it.

[Big I]

HiroVoid wrote...

I think we should all just do what the Qunari do. They don't seem to have problems with abominations, and their government has allowed them to create superior weapons compared to the rest of Thedas.

The codex says they lost the Exalted Marches because the Circles had better mages than them. It negated the qunari advantage in technology (weapons and ships).


Also, they treat mages like animals. It's no better than slavery.

[Ziggeh]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

I agree. the best system that I could see is one that we put a drug addict through. The mage has a Philactory of his blood taken when he/she is seen as a mage. Then they can be free to practice magic with some Templar/Mage overseers. If they just want to live their lives than they'd be free to but they'd have to return to a Templar/Mage facility once per month or so to be checked up on by both Templars and Mages to make sure the mage hasn't been possesed. Any mage that doesn't meet that date will be hunted down by the Templars/mages and brought in, questioned, and then dealt with.

That seems like a pretty fair system for both sides.

"Have you had a good month? Good, good. Let's go through the check list shall we? One. Have you murdered any communities this month?"

[HiroVoid]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

I think we should all just do what the Qunari do. They don't seem to have problems with abominations, and their government has allowed them to create superior weapons compared to the rest of Thedas.

The codex says they lost the Exalted Marches because the Circles had better mages than them. It negated the qunari advantage in technology (weapons and ships).


Also, they treat mages like animals. It's no better than slavery.

True, but it doesn't mean that they can't come up with better advances in technology instead of just relying on magic all the time.  As far as mages go, sure, if you're thinking emotionally.  Logically, keeping them like that protects the general populace completely even if the few have to suffer for it.  Their society as a whole is likely much more united and under control than any other area in Thedas.

[JohnCena94]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

I think we should all just do what the Qunari do. They don't seem to have problems with abominations, and their government has allowed them to create superior weapons compared to the rest of Thedas.

The codex says they lost the Exalted Marches because the Circles had better mages than them. It negated the qunari advantage in technology (weapons and ships).


Also, they treat mages like animals. It's no better than slavery.

That we agree on The Qunari are like Communists but worse they leave no room for freedom, If you are not born into the elite your screwed, for instance if the whole world followed there ideas Ferelden would be under Orlasis control because Loghain would be stuck farming with his army!