1869 réponses à ce sujet

[Big I]

Avilia wrote...

Redcliffe happened because:

1.  Isolde is pious and has been taught that magic is evil
2.  Isolde felt the need to hide the fact that her child is a mage due to 1.
3.  Mages are not able to be normal members of society and  hold titles so 1 and 2
4.  Isolde didn't want her child taken away from her due to 1 2 and 3

All of which might have been prevented if the Chantry didn't feel the need to treat mages as if they're likely to turn into abominations just by waking up the morning.  If there were some less restrictive way of  having mages come together to learn and not a way that forces them to abandon or be taken from their prior lives and constantly watched by Templars.

I don't know what the solution is, but as I said earlier, as far as I'm concerned nearly all the problems with mages in game are caused by Chantry oversight, not prevented by it.

Even if I supported the Chantry approach to mages, a lot of the things they restrict mages from doing makes no sense from a safety standpoint. Hold lands and title? Raise children? Why are these things so wrong?


Why are Harrowed mages (like Anders) restricted from leaving the tower? By definition they've proven they won;t become abominations.

[JohnCena94]

HiroVoid wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

I think we should all just do what the Qunari do. They don't seem to have problems with abominations, and their government has allowed them to create superior weapons compared to the rest of Thedas.

The codex says they lost the Exalted Marches because the Circles had better mages than them. It negated the qunari advantage in technology (weapons and ships).


Also, they treat mages like animals. It's no better than slavery.

True, but it doesn't mean that they can't come up with better advances in technology instead of just relying on magic all the time.  As far as mages go, sure, if you're thinking emotionally.  Logically, keeping them like that protects the general populace completely even if the few have to suffer for it.  Their society as a whole is likely much more united and under control than any other area in Thedas.

But at what cost would you really want to live like that?

[HiroVoid]

JohnCena94 wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

I think we should all just do what the Qunari do. They don't seem to have problems with abominations, and their government has allowed them to create superior weapons compared to the rest of Thedas.

The codex says they lost the Exalted Marches because the Circles had better mages than them. It negated the qunari advantage in technology (weapons and ships).


Also, they treat mages like animals. It's no better than slavery.

True, but it doesn't mean that they can't come up with better advances in technology instead of just relying on magic all the time.  As far as mages go, sure, if you're thinking emotionally.  Logically, keeping them like that protects the general populace completely even if the few have to suffer for it.  Their society as a whole is likely much more united and under control than any other area in Thedas.

But at what cost would you really want to live like that?

Eh.  Guess it'd suck to be me then.  So's the way of fate and the better of the people.

[Ziggeh]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Even if I supported the Chantry approach to mages, a lot of the things they restrict mages from doing makes no sense from a safety standpoint. Hold lands and title? Raise children? Why are these things so wrong?

Leverage. If a demon can use it against them, the odds of abomination increase.

[Big I]

Ziggeh wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Even if I supported the Chantry approach to mages, a lot of the things they restrict mages from doing makes no sense from a safety standpoint. Hold lands and title? Raise children? Why are these things so wrong?

Leverage. If a demon can use it against them, the odds of abomination increase.

Unless they'd already been summoned physically or were present as an abomination, how would they be able to influence things beyond the Veil? How would they even know if random mage A had a wife, children, or a home?

[Avilia]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Avilia wrote...

Redcliffe happened because:

1.  Isolde is pious and has been taught that magic is evil
2.  Isolde felt the need to hide the fact that her child is a mage due to 1.
3.  Mages are not able to be normal members of society and  hold titles so 1 and 2
4.  Isolde didn't want her child taken away from her due to 1 2 and 3

All of which might have been prevented if the Chantry didn't feel the need to treat mages as if they're likely to turn into abominations just by waking up the morning.  If there were some less restrictive way of  having mages come together to learn and not a way that forces them to abandon or be taken from their prior lives and constantly watched by Templars.

I don't know what the solution is, but as I said earlier, as far as I'm concerned nearly all the problems with mages in game are caused by Chantry oversight, not prevented by it.

Even if I supported the Chantry approach to mages, a lot of the things they restrict mages from doing makes no sense from a safety standpoint. Hold lands and title? Raise children? Why are these things so wrong?


Why are Harrowed mages (like Anders) restricted from leaving the tower? By definition they've proven they won;t become abominations.

I think its a reaction against the Imperium - wanting to make sure no one with magic has any kind of power or freedom.  I see the general feeling against mages and magic (not just the Chantry but general populace) stemming from their Andrastian beliefs. 

[JohnCena94]

HiroVoid wrote...

JohnCena94 wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

I think we should all just do what the Qunari do. They don't seem to have problems with abominations, and their government has allowed them to create superior weapons compared to the rest of Thedas.

The codex says they lost the Exalted Marches because the Circles had better mages than them. It negated the qunari advantage in technology (weapons and ships).


Also, they treat mages like animals. It's no better than slavery.

True, but it doesn't mean that they can't come up with better advances in technology instead of just relying on magic all the time.  As far as mages go, sure, if you're thinking emotionally.  Logically, keeping them like that protects the general populace completely even if the few have to suffer for it.  Their society as a whole is likely much more united and under control than any other area in Thedas.

But at what cost would you really want to live like that?

Eh.  Guess it'd suck to be me then.  So's the way of fate and the better of the people.

fair engough just hope you enjoy what your parents did because I dont lol

[Ziggeh]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Unless they'd already been summoned physically or were present as an abomination, how would they be able to influence things beyond the Veil? How would they even know if random mage A had a wife, children, or a home?

There's Word of God on this, in the Meredith thread, but presumably because they can see into peoples minds. That's how the fade works as a dream landscape, it's shaped by thought.

[Big I]

Ziggeh wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Unless they'd already been summoned physically or were present as an abomination, how would they be able to influence things beyond the Veil? How would they even know if random mage A had a wife, children, or a home?

There's Word of God on this, in the Meredith thread, but presumably because they can see into peoples minds. That's how the fade works as a dream landscape, it's shaped by thought.

Interesting. Of course under that logic any cotact or friendship a mage has could be used as leverage.


Isn't the Harrowing supposed to protect a mage from the mental influence of a demon?

[Ziggeh]

Avilia wrote...

I think its a reaction against the Imperium - wanting to make sure no one with magic has any kind of power or freedom.  I see the general feeling against mages and magic (not just the Chantry but general populace) stemming from their Andrastian beliefs.

Imagine you live with your family in a little village. Imagine a mage lives next door. No matter how small the odds, you know that one day that mage might turn into a monster that could strip the flesh from everyone you know and love.

How do you think that mage would be treated?

[Ziggeh]

LookingGlass93 wrote...
Interesting. Of course under that logic any cotact or friendship a mage has could be used as leverage.

Indeed, as would placing them in an unpleasant situation such as imprisonment.

LookingGlass93 wrote...
Isn't the Harrowing supposed to protect a mage from the mental influence of a demon?

Nope, it's supposed to prove they have the will to survive an encounter with one. It reduces the odds of it happening, by filtering the more "weak minded", but it's not a gaurantee or anything.

[JohnCena94]

Ziggeh wrote...

Avilia wrote...

I think its a reaction against the Imperium - wanting to make sure no one with magic has any kind of power or freedom.  I see the general feeling against mages and magic (not just the Chantry but general populace) stemming from their Andrastian beliefs.

Imagine you live with your family in a little village. Imagine a mage lives next door. No matter how small the odds, you know that one day that mage might turn into a monster that could strip the flesh from everyone you know and love.

How do you think that mage would be treated?

This is why as a mage I would try to rebuild the Tevinter ,if mages wont be accepted or allowed freedom there would be only one answer if I was a mage which is WAR!

[Ziggeh]

JohnCena94 wrote...

This is why as a mage I would try to rebuild the Tevinter ,if mages wont be accepted or allowed freedom there would be only one answer if I was a mage which is WAR!

Personally I'd be devoting my life to ensuring a bleeding monster didn't take up residence in my skull. Everything beyond that seems like a secondary concern.

[JohnCena94]

Ziggeh wrote...

[

LookingGlass93 wrote...
Isn't the Harrowing supposed to protect a mage from the mental influence of a demon?

Nope, it's supposed to prove they have the will to survive an encounter with one. It reduces the odds of it happening, by filtering the more "weak minded", but it's not a gaurantee or anything.

To help your point Uldred wanted to use demons the fight the Templars but he bit of more than he could chew and was possesed.

[JohnCena94]

Ziggeh wrote...

JohnCena94 wrote...

This is why as a mage I would try to rebuild the Tevinter ,if mages wont be accepted or allowed freedom there would be only one answer if I was a mage which is WAR!

Personally I'd be devoting my life to ensuring a bleeding monster didn't take up residence in my skull. Everything beyond that seems like a secondary concern.

Well of course thats assumed primary after all its a bit hard to fight a war if your possesed by a demon lol

[silentassassin264]

 Well since this hasn't disappeared, time to add my two cents...

The problem with mages is that I understand the opposition to them.  Mages have ungodly amounts of power and can become insane engines of destruction against their will (well not really, you have to make a deal with a demon to become an abomination but you get the point).  The Chantry's solution is forced templar guarded Ciricles but I don't think that is the correct response.

By forcing mages to the circles, you create animosity.  TVtropes lists this type of stupidity as bullying a dragon.  That is why things like Uldred's revolt happen and cause the deaths of many innocents in the tower.  In addition to revolts like that, you also have people who would try to hide their magehood like Connor which also lead to massive loss of life.  Clearly forcing mages into the circles and making them lose all rights and whatnot is an incredibly stupid idea.  It breeds resentment that causes people to bend the rules which put many innocents in danger.

My solution to this problem is to keep the circle but make it optional and provide benefits for it.  Not all mages wanted to leave the circle, we can use FInn for this example.   The circle protects mages from angry mundanes rioting and killing them.  It also teaches mages how to deal with the fade and always has templars to protect from abominations (well supposed to) and in this version, they will attempt to exorcise abominations rather than killing them (like Connor).  Also letting them keep their titles and not taking their children and all that jazz would be great as well.

If mages choose not to join the circle, the chantry should just have as their statement that they are not obligated to protect them.  In other words, if the villagers get angry and blame you for ruining crops, the templars do not come to your aid.  If you turn into an abomination out in the field, the templars just strike you down rather than attempting to go into the fade and exorcise you like Connor.  If a mage is accused of using their magic to say mind control people, they are treated as maleficar and have to surrender to the circle or die.

While not very eloquent of an explanation, basically, mages should be allowed to free but be aware of the fact that they will not get much help and will be under more scrutiny than the normal citizen.  If they go to the circle willingly (or to get a maleficar examination), the circle will try to protect them and be much fairer in due process than they would be at the mercy of what would probably become mob justice outside the circle.  In other words, they should make the circle actually an attractive option to "freedom".  If mages felt they were there because they wanted to and were getting a good deal, you can protect the populace and the mages.

Modifié par silentassassin264, 18 janvier 2011 - 02:18 .

[Beerfish]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Mages bound by the Chantry: A safe life on your knees.

Mages unbound from the Chantry: An unsafe life on your feet.

Well the mages themselves are secondary in this equation.

Mages bound by the chantry:  A safe life for those that possessed mages may do harm to.

Mages unboiund from the chantry:  A threat to all that a possessed mage my do harm to.

The chantry and the templars don't necessasarily go to all that bother because they want to be mean to mages.  It's for preservation and general good of the populace. 

[Beerfish]

"If mages choose not to join the circle, the chantry should just have as
their statement that they are not obligated to protect them.  In other
words, if the villagers get angry and blame you for ruining crops, the
templars do not come to your aid.  If you turn into an abomination out
in the field, the templars just strike you down rather than attempting
to go into the fade and exorcise you like Connor.  If a mage is accused
of using their magic to say mind control people, they are treated as
maleficar and have to surrender to the circle or die."

The problem with this is that the possessed mage kills 30 poeple in a village.  Since the Templars are not dierclty watching these mages out in the field it may be some time before they can find the possessed mage and kill the mage without losing some of their own.  This happens once or twice and all that self regulation goes right out the window.  Not to menion the people who perhaps get killed by a village because people think they are a mage.

[JohnCena94]

silentassassin264 wrote...

 Well since this hasn't disappeared, time to add my two cents...

good idea but that would go against the chantry I think thats why I think it would have to come down to war if mages want freedom.

[Avilia]

Ziggeh wrote...

Avilia wrote...

I think its a reaction against the Imperium - wanting to make sure no one with magic has any kind of power or freedom.  I see the general feeling against mages and magic (not just the Chantry but general populace) stemming from their Andrastian beliefs.

Imagine you live with your family in a little village. Imagine a mage lives next door. No matter how small the odds, you know that one day that mage might turn into a monster that could strip the flesh from everyone you know and love.

How do you think that mage would be treated?

Oh sorry - I missed your question.  Its my understanding that anyone can be possessed by a demon (the little girl in the Stone Prisoner for example) they just need to let them in.  Mages are probably a more attractive prospect (because of their power no doubt).

So my answer - I'm not advocating no training for mages just not the current set up where they're oppressed and treated as second class citizens.

If Thedas were a real place I'd not even be sure it was possible to overturn centuries of indoctrinated belief to the extent that mages could live next door to mundanes without causing them fear and distress.  At least not in the short term.  Perhaps exposure to mages going about their daily business without suddenly turning into monsters might help with that.  The Chantry not taking every opportunity to remind people how evil magic is would be good too

Modifié par Avilia, 18 janvier 2011 - 02:27 .

[KnightHawke]

Avalla i Know exacatally what your saying and I totally agree I'm playing a mage female and whjle walking into the tavern in loothering the two gossipers said quote un quote Why don"t those mage's just make a spell to get rid of all the darkspawn and the other answered by saying because all mages are useless and when she heard this I could see the tears swelling up in her eyes and in my counsole game Alistair was right there and he consould herby drawing her inside himself.this was upsetting to me because I was brought up to except everyone nomatter what race they are and my teachers tought me that your tounge is that of a two edge sward words can have a profound effect on a person for the rest of thire lifeso alwayas becareful what you say to a person

[JohnCena94]

Avilia wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Avilia wrote...

I think its a reaction against the Imperium - wanting to make sure no one with magic has any kind of power or freedom.  I see the general feeling against mages and magic (not just the Chantry but general populace) stemming from their Andrastian beliefs.

Imagine you live with your family in a little village. Imagine a mage lives next door. No matter how small the odds, you know that one day that mage might turn into a monster that could strip the flesh from everyone you know and love.

How do you think that mage would be treated?

Oh sorry - I missed your question.  Its my understanding that anyone can be possessed by a demon (the little girl in the Stone Prisoner for example) they just need to let them in.  Mages are probably a more attractive prospect (because of their power no doubt).

So my answer - I'm not advocating no training for mages just not the current set up where they're oppressed and treated as second class citizens.

If Thedas were a real place I'd not even be sure it was possible to overturn centuries of indoctrinated belief to the extent that mages could live next door to mundanes without causing them fear and distress.  At least not in the short term.  Perhaps exposure to mages going about their daily business without suddenly turning into monsters might help with that.  The Chantry not taking every opportunity to remind people how evil magic is would be good too

Thats why mages should just band together and take over again

[Ziggeh]

Avilia wrote...
Oh sorry - I missed your question.  Its my understanding that anyone can be possessed by a demon (the little girl in the Stone Prisoner for example) they just need to let them in.  Mages are probably a more attractive prospect (because of their power no doubt).

They're actively drawn to mages, and you only get an abomination that way. Presumably a normal person with a demon inside them is just possesion, not sure we know how dangerous that is.

Avilia wrote...
If Thedas were a real place I'd not even be sure it was possible to overturn centuries of indoctrinated belief to the extent that mages could live next door to mundanes without causing them fear and distress.  At least not in the short term.  Perhaps exposure to mages going about their daily business without suddenly turning into monsters might help with that.  The Chantry not taking every opportunity to remind people how evil magic is would be good too

My point was that you don't need indoctrination for the oppression of mages: people fear them with good reason, they are how the monsters get into the world. The chantry reflects and gains influence through that fear, it doesn't impose it, though I do agree it feeds it.

[Avilia]

Ziggeh wrote...

[snipped a bit]

Avilia wrote...
If Thedas were a real place I'd not even be sure it was possible to overturn centuries of indoctrinated belief to the extent that mages could live next door to mundanes without causing them fear and distress.  At least not in the short term.  Perhaps exposure to mages going about their daily business without suddenly turning into monsters might help with that.  The Chantry not taking every opportunity to remind people how evil magic is would be good too

My point was that you don't need indoctrination for the oppression of mages: people fear them with good reason, they are how the monsters get into the world. The chantry reflects and gains influence through that fear, it doesn't impose it, though I do agree it feeds it.

I agree up to a point - hence my point about common exposure perhaps lessening that.  Some of that fear would be born from ignorance - as is most fear of the unknown.

I do think that most of the fear is from indoctrination by the Chantry - if you're told constantly from the day you're old enough to hear it that Mages and magic are evil and vile, its only natural you'd believe it.  To think or believe outside that would be unusual in a world that's presented to us as pseudo-medieval.  Daveth's comments about being turned into a frog are a good example of the sorts of superstition that exist in that world.

(Hopefully that makes sense and isn't as rambly as I think it might be)

Edit - sorry I read your response and comprehended this time.  No excuse just a brain block.  I'd say less that Mages are dangerous and more that they can be.  As can (for example) a Templar who goes mad and decides to kill some mages (sorry Cullen) - although that might be a bad example considering how he went mad....

Modifié par Avilia, 18 janvier 2011 - 02:50 .

[drahelvete]

The qunari have the right idea.