1869 réponses à ce sujet

[White_Buffalo94]

drahelvete wrote...

The qunari have the right idea.

As much as I dislike the chantry, I'd have to say the Chantry has a better idea. They know mages are useful, which is why they don't kill them all off. Mages are the reason the Qunari were pushed back, despite their superior tech and cannons


EDIT: It's truly amazing and awesome how I will be able to destroy TWO groups I severely want to beat down. The Qunari and the Templars/Chantry

Modifié par White_Buffalo94, 18 janvier 2011 - 03:08 .

[drahelvete]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

drahelvete wrote...

The qunari have the right idea.

As much as I dislike the chantry, I'd have to say the Chantry has a better idea. They know mages are useful, which is why they don't kill them all off. Mages are the reason the Qunari were pushed back, despite their superior tech and cannons

The qunari have mages too. They're just leashed... and have no tongues. Maybe they're not as useful as Thedasian mages, but at least they're not walking WMDs.

Modifié par drahelvete, 18 janvier 2011 - 03:12 .

[HiroVoid]

drahelvete wrote...

The qunari have the right idea.

*High fives*

[pallascedar]

I feel like nobody has mentioned the Dalish, it doesn't seem like they have lots of evil mages running around, and they certainly don't regulate mages (except that mages can be trained to become the leader of their society)

[Reaverwind]

pallascedar wrote...

I feel like nobody has mentioned the Dalish, it doesn't seem like they have lots of evil mages running around, and they certainly don't regulate mages (except that mages can be trained to become the leader of their society)

They don't seem to have a lot of mages running around, period. And one of them did unleash a curse that came back to bite his clan in the ass.

[Kakistos_]

Clearly, the fact that the Dalish and the once powerful Tevinter Imperium had free mages and were not brought to ruin by Abominations and Blood magic proves that the Chantry's fears are unwarrented.

[Ziggeh]

Kakistos_ wrote...

Clearly, the fact that the Dalish and the once powerful Tevinter Imperium had free mages and were not brought to ruin by Abominations and Blood magic proves that the Chantry's fears are unwarrented.

I think what happens with Conner is a pretty solid counter point to that. That warrants a good deal of fear. We don't know enough about either the Tevinter or Dalish to say how successful they've been in keeping it in check.

[Sharn01]

Ziggeh wrote...

filaminstrel wrote...

My issue with it is how they specifically bring a demon to the mage's region of the Fade for him to face. I'm not sure this is wise or necessary. I understand that they want to make sure he's ready, particularly because it's not only the mage's safety at stake when he encounters a demon, but there ought to be some way of executing a final test that doesn't involve throwing the self defense student in a back alley to face off against a rapist...

You'd imagine most of their time would be spent learning to deal with such things, a gradual learning curve in how to survive life as a mage. Understanding Demons: 101.

Unfortunately mages are banned from learning about how to survive a possession attempt or even talking about their harrowing after it takes place.  Its one thing to teach someone how to resist possession and then test them to see if they have learned their lesson properly, its another to throw them to a demon without training and see who makes it out alive.  

I used an anology on the other thread about bungee jumping.  Do you teach someone the proper way to measure their cords and tie the lines before they make their first jump, or do you toss them a bag of bungee equipment and tell them they have three hours to figure it out and get the line tied before you toss them over the side of the bridge? 

[Kakistos_]

Ziggeh wrote...

Kakistos_ wrote...

Clearly, the fact that the Dalish and the once powerful Tevinter Imperium had free mages and were not brought to ruin by Abominations and Blood magic proves that the Chantry's fears are unwarrented.

I think what happens with Conner is a pretty solid counter point to that. That warrants a good deal of fear. We don't know enough about either the Tevinter or Dalish to say how successful they've been in keeping it in check.

You have a point but the fact remains that Abominations are going to show up every now and then. Do you not think it would be better if mages were free so that they could help when these catastrophies arise? Imagine how different things would have been if there had been mages in the castle or in the town to help the guards deal with the corpses and later restrain conner.

[Urazz]

filaminstrel wrote...

I think the system of forcefully taking mages at a young age to make sure they know how to use their powers without becoming an abomination or such is important, though they should be more lax after the mage has proven himself. Also the Rite of Tranquility and the Harrowing are a bit questionable.

My thoughts exactly.  If anything from the information we got, it's almost like the mage trainees are being set up to fail instead of being trained to actually resist possession from demons.  Sure they are trained to use power but I don't recall seeing any training on how to deal with being in the fade.

[Reaverwind]

Ziggeh wrote...

Kakistos_ wrote...

Clearly, the fact that the Dalish and the once powerful Tevinter Imperium had free mages and were not brought to ruin by Abominations and Blood magic proves that the Chantry's fears are unwarrented.

I think what happens with Conner is a pretty solid counter point to that. That warrants a good deal of fear. We don't know enough about either the Tevinter or Dalish to say how successful they've been in keeping it in check.

True, and given how the Clans are spread out and stick to less populated areas, a Keeper could easily go Abomination and wipe out an entire Clan without anyone finding out what really happened. I seriously doubt the Dalish would even duly report such an event to outsiders even if they did know about it.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 18 janvier 2011 - 04:35 .

[Sharn01]

Reaverwind wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Kakistos_ wrote...

Clearly, the fact that the Dalish and the once powerful Tevinter Imperium had free mages and were not brought to ruin by Abominations and Blood magic proves that the Chantry's fears are unwarrented.

I think what happens with Conner is a pretty solid counter point to that. That warrants a good deal of fear. We don't know enough about either the Tevinter or Dalish to say how successful they've been in keeping it in check.

True, and given how the Clans are spread out and stick to less populated areas, a Keeper could easily go Abomination and wipe out an entire Clan without anyone finding out what really happened. I seriously doubt the Dalish would even duly report such an event to outsiders even if they did know about it.

If the threat was as great as people like to think the Dalish would be in trouble.  I am not saying it couldnt happen, the possibility does exsist.  The possibility also exsists that everyone posting on the forum could develope schizophrenia, should be all be put in a mental institution in case that does happen, or should we wait until we actually start showing symtoms, which may never happen, and in most cases wont?

[Ziggeh]

Kakistos_ wrote...
Do you not think it would be better if mages were free so that they could help when these catastrophies arise?

I think it's best to try to avoid having catastrophies in the first place.

Kakistos_ wrote...
Imagine how different things would have been if there had been mages in the castle or in the town to help the guards deal with the corpses and later restrain conner.

There was a mage in the castle at the time. Didn't help much.

[Ziggeh]

Reaverwind wrote...
I seriously doubt the Dalish would even duly report such an event to outsiders even if they did know about it.

It's not in the Tevinter magister's interests to report it either.

[Kakistos_]

Ziggeh wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...
I seriously doubt the Dalish would even duly report such an event to outsiders even if they did know about it.

It's not in the Tevinter magister's interests to report it either.

They may have not been "reported" as you say but they were dealt with. Abominations may be dangerous but they are not all powerful and there is no proof to suggest that they rank up to other threat such as the Darkspawn or the Quinari. Abominations are even rarer. The Chantry's fear of Abominations hardly justifies their treatment of mages.

[pallascedar]

Reaverwind wrote...

pallascedar wrote...

I feel like nobody has mentioned the Dalish, it doesn't seem like they have lots of evil mages running around, and they certainly don't regulate mages (except that mages can be trained to become the leader of their society)

They don't seem to have a lot of mages running around, period. And one of them did unleash a curse that came back to bite his clan in the ass.

There aren't a lot of Dalish running around, 2 mages in a clan of maybe 100 probably reflects a larger percentage of magic than you'd find in a human population. Zathrian's curse was pretty terrible, but at the same time, he was hardly out of control.

[Ziggeh]

Kakistos_ wrote...
The Chantry's fear of Abominations hardly justifies their treatment of mages.

Heh. See, we don't have any sources on the extent of the danger posed by abominations, but I can tell you with a pretty high degree of certainy that it falls somewhere in between "enough to make it slightly justifiable" and "not enough to make it entirely justified". Bioware set it up with this question in mind, without those variables it can't properly serve it's function.

I've been arguing a pro chantry position here largely because far more people argue the anti, despite the fact that I feel there really is no right answer. You either opress people who have done nothing to deserve it or people will lose their lives. You can't wholey justify either.

[marshalleck]

Ziggeh wrote...

I've been arguing a pro chantry position here largely because far more people argue the anti, despite the fact that I feel there really is no right answer. You either opress people who have done nothing to deserve it or people will lose their lives. You can't wholey justify either.

Sure you can. Non-mages are an evolutionary dead end, and as such are fit for thralldom. 

[HiroVoid]

marshalleck wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

I've been arguing a pro chantry position here largely because far more people argue the anti, despite the fact that I feel there really is no right answer. You either opress people who have done nothing to deserve it or people will lose their lives. You can't wholey justify either.

Sure you can. Non-mages are an evolutionary dead end, and as such are fit for thralldom. 

Eh.  I'd side on mages helping more along the lines of an evolutionary dead end.  How can civilization ever hope to evolve technologically if they always rely on magic instead.

[marshalleck]

HiroVoid wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

I've been arguing a pro chantry position here largely because far more people argue the anti, despite the fact that I feel there really is no right answer. You either opress people who have done nothing to deserve it or people will lose their lives. You can't wholey justify either.

Sure you can. Non-mages are an evolutionary dead end, and as such are fit for thralldom. 

Eh.  I'd side on mages helping more along the lines of an evolutionary dead end.  How can civilization ever hope to evolve technologically if they always rely on magic instead.

Mages are no different than non-mages when it comes to using or developing technology--with the obvious advantage of having magic. Nature favors advantageous traits, even when they occasionally backfire (abominations). Non-magical humans have no long term future. Simple as that. Like neanderthals being forced into extinction by their more adept, adaptable, and intelligent cousins, ****** sapiens. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 18 janvier 2011 - 05:50 .

[Ziggeh]

marshalleck wrote...

Nature favors advantageous traits

Erm, no, not quite. While I would really rather not detour into evolutionary theory in what has been an interesting thread: natural selection favours traits that increase survival and reproduction rates. Being a monster baiting social pariah doesn't really lead to either.

[Aldandil]

I've seen a lot of people trying to find a good analogy for the situation of mages in Thedas, and it seems to be pretty hard.I think a pretty good analogy could be real world people with serious mental illnesses. In the real world, such people are normally kept under some form of supervision, even though they might be quite sane for the most part. They might seem like normal people, but then suddenly lose touch with reality and hurt themselves or other people.



In the past, and not too long ago, most people with delusions were considered lunatics and were put into asylums for the rest of their lives. This was, of course, because they were considered a hazard to society. This would probably be because society didn't really have the resources to deal with them. We're normally a bit on the judgemental side so crazy people isn't normally up our alley.



Some people may be aware of their illness and recognize their symptoms. We normally let these live in their own homes, let them do a bit of medication and make sure someone keeps an eye on them. Those that can't do that are given more drugs which normally leads them into a state that could be compared to the Tranquil (not quite as bad, but still). If someone can't be controlled by medication, we lock them up.



When someone does something horrible, like the recent Arizona shooting, one of the first things asked is often why society didn't see this coming. Why wasn't this person supervised, considering how unstable he apparently was. As soon as something happens, apparently people like to see more control and less freedom.



Mages are of course rational beings, but it has to be said that once they've been possessed, the mage is kind of out of the game. It doesn't happen voluntarily, so it's not as if it can be prevented if the mages just wanted it a bit more. For the people around them, it must be pretty uncomfortable to live with the constant risk. When someone loses touch with reality in the real world, anything could happen, I'm guessing that for the most part someone just sees things that isn't there. In Thedas, it's pretty likely to be a killing spree. If that had been the case in the real world, I'm guessing that we would have things quite similar to the Circle, no matter the love for freedom.



I'm sure this one has been mentioned by someone else in some other thread, but I just thought of it myself.

[Malu Cap]

 I'm not not an expert on DA codex.  But it seems to me that the more serious matter is the perception of the general populace regarding mages.  They see mages as a threat, some form of WMD, not as people/human beings.  Hence why people are more quick to overlook the harsh conditions mages live with (unable to have families, restricted to living in the tower, taken away as children etc) and why the average Ferelden sees them as something evil to be thrown/locked away.  I think the reason why most people argue for the liberation of mages is because of the harsh/unfair treatment, not because there is a group (chantry) overseeing them per se.  

[The Elder King]

About the question about who is bettere in dealing with mages, mages or templars: in DAO gameplay surely mages are better than templars. Mana Clash kills the majority of mages, or weakens them a lot. But, in DAO gameplay blood mages aren't too tough. Instead, a lore description (and the events or the Circle and in part Redcliffe°) said that blood mages are powerful, most ofthe time stronger than the other mages. And templare are descripted as very suited in dealing with mages.

I think that a nice idea is to form mix squad of mages and templars in dealing with apostates and maleficare. We should remember that the chantry generally don't kill the apostates, if they can take them alive. They generally kill the maleficar.

I really dont have an opinion about what is better, Chantry control or mage freedom. Both have their pros and cons. If in DA2 we'll have the possibility to side with both factions, I'm going to make different Hawkes with different opinion about the topic.