140 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

This is not asking if it is plausible or believable that the Council still refuses to believe Shepard about the Reapers. I am not seeking a discussion about whether or not the Council is right or wrong.

This is asking, from a writing perspective: have they overused this plot device?

I guess I’m a little frustrated that they are still using it even in game two, and was wondering if anyone felt the same. It’s like reading all of The Order of the Phoenix and seeing the Ministry deny the truth for 800 pages, having Voldemort himself pop into the Ministry of Magic in front of eye witnesses, then picking up The Half-Blood Prince and discovering that in the time Harry was away the Ministry had gone back to denying everything and was handwaving the whole event as a practical joke some hooligans played to give people a scare. But I spent a whole book putting up with this crap and fighting to make the truth known!

Then you hop on the forums and people tell you, “I beg your pardon, it’s realistic that politicians would do a 180.” Well yes, but purely as a player I can’t help but think enough’s enough. I don’t like the No One Believes You trope in the best of times, but in excess it induces dangerously impatient foot tapping and exasperated sighs, which aren't good for my story enjoyment.

[AntiChri5]

Yes.

[Moiaussi]

Very much agreed.

[hawat333]

In ME1: No.

In ME2: Yes. They've had clear evidence by then, and not some visions from a guy/girl who was knocked out cold by an alien device.

[Bourne Endeavor]

It would be less redundant if we were offered a conflict that rationalized their disbelief. What if there had been evidence, falsified or otherwise, that did insinuate Sovereign had been a Geth creation or that perhaps Shepard's mental capacity was suspect? The exposure to the beacons and cipher could have resulted in innumerable side-effects. While the conclusion is inevitably the same. (No one believes you) The route taken differs greatly. Instead, the Council appears inept and the Alliance worthless when neither was accurate before. Alas, that is the love hate relation many of us have with ME2.

Edit: Few typos

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 17 janvier 2011 - 08:38 .

[Vaenier]

Horribly yes. The railroading to working for Cerberus is appalling.

[Stupidus]

I don't know either it's stupid. The council was in the Destiny Ascension and probably saw Sovereign, and even at the end if you save the council even the god damn Turian one aknowledges the word 'Reaper' at the end. Yet in ME2 we get "Ah yes, Reapers...". Even more disappointed by Kaidan/Ashley not believing you.

[Dean_the_Young]

In ME1, certainly not (Shepard had no evidence when he needed it).



In ME2, unsightly when it is raised, but still no: the primary actors who don't believe you (the Council) may be a bit unpleasant to look at, if they aren't lying, but many other informed people do know and believe you.

[Dean_the_Young]

Stupidus wrote...

I don't know either it's stupid. The council was in the Destiny Ascension and probably saw Sovereign, and even at the end if you save the council even the god damn Turian one aknowledges the word 'Reaper' at the end. Yet in ME2 we get "Ah yes, Reapers...". Even more disappointed by Kaidan/Ashley not believing you.

The question has never been if Sovereign, the ship, existed. Even it having an AI isn't necessarily in dispute.

The matter of debate is if Sovereign, the ship, is necessarily a Reaper, an immortal race of sentient space ships that kill everything for no apparent reason and then leave without leaving any real proof each time.

[Robhuzz]

Definatly. In ME1 I could understand their actions just a little (even though I was furious at the council and udina for grounding MY SHIP - I would've grabbed a shotgun and shot udina at point blank range had I the opportunity, and then anyone else who got in my way - but thats off topic) but in ME2 they're obviously aware of the reaper thread but are actively denying it to avoid panic. Cheap and completely irresponsible of course but there you have it. I so hope in ME3 the turians are going to be under attack (sorry general turian fans) and the turian councillor is pleading for help, receiving NONE from Shepard.... Because well... Turians? We've dismissed that race...

Okay by this post I think I made it clear I absolutely hate the council for their actions and would like nothing more than to watch them die, can't get myself to sacrifice the destiny ascenion in ME1 though (that's a waste of a good ship)

Edit: The worst part of it was kaidan/ashley not believing the entire reaper/collector story. I mean it was like they had been brainwashed by the alliance, I mean.. HELLOO? You were there when vigil told us about the reapers remember?

The question has never been if Sovereign, the ship, existed. Even it having an AI isn't necessarily in dispute.

The matter of debate is if Sovereign, the ship, is necessarily a Reaper, an immortal race of sentient space ships that kill everything for no apparent reason and then leave without leaving any real proof each time.

No, they were aware of Sovereign being something different entirely. They said that sovereign could've been a geth ship. I doubt even they believed their own words when they said that... To me it was clear the council knew about the reapers. I believe if you talk to avina having samara in your party there's an option that talks about reapers. Avina says she (it) doesn't know that term, samara replies it has been actively wiped from the extranet.

Can't remember exactely how to trigger it but it's there. Further evidence the council is just covering it all up.

Modifié par Robhuzz, 17 janvier 2011 - 08:47 .

[Vaenier]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Stupidus wrote...

I don't know either it's stupid. The council was in the Destiny Ascension and probably saw Sovereign, and even at the end if you save the council even the god damn Turian one aknowledges the word 'Reaper' at the end. Yet in ME2 we get "Ah yes, Reapers...". Even more disappointed by Kaidan/Ashley not believing you.

The question has never been if Sovereign, the ship, existed. Even it having an AI isn't necessarily in dispute.

The matter of debate is if Sovereign, the ship, is necessarily a Reaper, an immortal race of sentient space ships that kill everything for no apparent reason and then leave without leaving any real proof each time.

Everyone knows the Geth built Sovereign, then Saren took Sovereign and tricked the Geth into believing it was really an ancient god and not something they built themselves. He is just that charismatic...

[Vorathrad]

hawat333 wrote...

In ME1: No.
In ME2: Yes. They've had clear evidence by then, and not some visions from a guy/girl who was knocked out cold by an alien device.

^ Agreed. In ME1 the Council is portrayed as over-cautious regarding "delicate" issues; still, I get the feeling the Council supports Shepard with the reaper thing even if they won't fully admit it. I get this feeling from the conversations with the Council aboard the Normandy; they don't fully support your theories but they encourage you to go on. I vaguely recall a sentence from the asari councillor stating something in the lines of "We have spectres for this kind of work in the shadows while we pretend not to know about their issues".

In ME2, after they saw Sovereign with their own eyes and many human lives were sacrificed for saving their diplomatic asses (in my playthrough)... yeah, their attitude freaked me out. I think it was necessary to let the story go on with all the Cerberus thing, though (I mean, it wouldn't make any sense to stay with Cerberus if you can get fully support from the Council - therefore from the Alliance too)

[Aggie Punbot]

In the council's defense, I expect that they *do* know the truth, but are trying to cover it up to prevent mass hysteria. Think about it: if you knew that there was an immortal race of sentient machines lying in wait to pop up and kill everyone deader than dead and that there was little to no hope of stopping them, would you bother continuing to live your life normally? Go to work? Pay your bills? Generally be an integral part of society? Probably not.

I expect the council is trying (in their own 'special' way) to maintain galactic stability. I sincerely doubt that they (or even the Alliance, for that matter) has been doing absolutely nothing. I expect it's more likely that Shepard is deliberately being kept out of the loop for the plans to deal with the Reapers...for whatever reason.

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 17 janvier 2011 - 08:47 .

[Dionkey]

Its pretty obvious the Council are just playing it down, even with Shepard. If they are that dumb at least the Turians and Alliance are fully aware after Retribution.

[Mister Mida]

Only after ME2 got out.

[Babli]

Mass Effect 2 is not sequel, its reboot. That explains it.

[klossen4]

Stupidus wrote...

I don't know either it's stupid. The council was in the Destiny Ascension and probably saw Sovereign, and even at the end if you save the council even the god damn Turian one aknowledges the word 'Reaper' at the end. Yet in ME2 we get "Ah yes, Reapers...". Even more disappointed by Kaidan/Ashley not believing you.

Ah yes me aknowledge word "reapers" after citadel attack i have dismissed that claim.

[james1976]

I think the no one believes you thing has gone into overkill. Especially the way everyone, even the Human representatives to the Council try to cover it up. All the races are only concerned with their current problems. I was hoping allowing the Council to die in ME1 would set things more in my second character's favor, but just like the first character no one who wasn't there believes you. I was shocked that even the VS was short sighted.

[StarGateGod]

i dont really care if they belive me or not i dont need them for the battle with reaper
i got geth, krogan,rachni,quarians, humans,
but in accoradnce to this thread yes it is they cleary have enough evidence to back reapers, the asari  councilor could meld with shepard and see the truth

[Harmless Crunch]

Yeah it's been overdone it worked really well In Mass Effect 1 because it made a good plot device, but by ME2 it was just a massive repeat.( In fact that is the first time i have ever seen BioWare do something like this)

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

It was okay that the council didn't really believe you in ME1. I hated it in ME2 because it acted like a nice big "**** you" to ME1's ending.

[James2912]

The Council not believing you in ME2 was a plot device so that you had to work for Cerberus.I think the Council might be lying, I just hope my Renegade Shep gets to have a Revenge of the Sith moment and storm the Citadel tower with Cerberus troopers.

[Iakus]

While I could find it reasonable that the Council could believe that the Reapers were no longer a threat with Sovereign dead and the Keepers altered, I find the "We have dismissed that claim" to be pure railroading stupidity. 

In ME 1 we saw the Council slow to act due to misplaced trust and general apathy.  But they do take action when a threat becomes clear.  And in the end  they believed you (if you saved em) In ME 2, I wonder if they didn't check the wiki closely enough...

[Aigyl]

TS2Aggie wrote...

In the council's defense, I expect that they *do* know the truth, but are trying to cover it up to prevent mass hysteria. Think about it: if you knew that there was an immortal race of sentient machines lying in wait to pop up and kill everyone deader than dead and that there was little to no hope of stopping them, would you bother continuing to live your life normally? Go to work? Pay your bills? Generally be an integral part of society? Probably not.

I expect the council is trying (in their own 'special' way) to maintain galactic stability. I sincerely doubt that they (or even the Alliance, for that matter) has been doing absolutely nothing. I expect it's more likely that Shepard is deliberately being kept out of the loop for the plans to deal with the Reapers...for whatever reason.

This, pretty much.

At the end of ME1 the Council believe in the Reapers and tells the public that Shepard is off cleaning up Geth to avoid inciting panic, not searching for a way to stop an army of Space Cthulus from killing and mind-controlling all life in the galaxy. The public would not react very well to that.

When Shepard comes back in ME2, s/he's with Cerberus and god-knows-what rumours TIM's been spreading around. The STG have been studying Reaper Indoctrination (mentioned somewhere in Mordin's loyalty). They don't know if they can trust Shepard yet, so they go back to good ol' stonewalling.

I imagine the actual reason for this was the same why all the choices in ME1 are played down in ME2, to make sure the narrative is nice and tight so everything is binded together for ME3 and nothing has de-railed too far.