Vaenier wrote...
You are right, this plot is just too railroaded. I want the option to open the Citadel relay and say frak you to the galaxy. I am tired of debate. Have a nice day.
Modifié par Il Divo, 17 janvier 2011 - 11:26 .
james1976 wrote...
We won't know until ME3.
I don’t understand why they insisted that we spend all of ME2 letting the plot stagnate with that tired old plot device when we could’ve done away with it at last, had a Council that believes us, and let the plot move in a new fresh direction where stuff is actually happening.Theoristitis wrote...
Nightwriter wrote...
Yeah but to make that work, you'd need dialogue specifically addressing it, like this:
Shepard: "I can't believe this! A Reaper drops down on their heads in the center of galactic space, and they still shut their eyes. You know, I'm starting to wonder if the galaxy is even worth saving."
Oh, and here's the difference: if it's plausible enough, you stop caring that it's overused. If it isn't plausible enough, it feels overused to the point of distraction and hurts the story.
In this case, you put so much effort into proving your claim in ME1 that it's definitely a taboo to sweep that all aside in ME2. Not just because it frustrates the player beyond all decency, but because it stagnates the story.
You didn't put effort into proving your claim that the Reapers existed, you put effort into stopping Saren and Sovereign. You only proved it to yourself and your squad. It would be taboo to sweep it all aside if you had in fact proved your story, but as far as the Council's aware there's nothing to sweep aside. The only evidence that exists is circumstantial - your visions, your correct guesses about the Protheans.
It's frustrating to the player, but it's supposed to be: it's an RPG and you're playing Shepard. Speaking for myself, I'd be more frustrated as a player (not as Shepard, of course) if the Council believed me, because it goes against everything built up thus far. Aliens hate humans. Humans are reckless attention-seekers. Shepard destroys everything he touches. If it means the No One Believes You trope is overused, I'd rather that then wonder why the Council suddenly believes a human Spectre without any change in the objective evidence.
Not to mention there's always the possibility that the Council is being subtly indoctrinated by the residual effects and code of the Sovereign pieces that mysteriously disappeared due to the keeper cleanup. Just as a side note.
Now, I guess if we're talking about the story stagnating, there's definitely a point there...but what it comes down to, as it always does, is this: what would you have done instead? They couldn't do an ME1 repeat - the same "explore the open galaxy" and "search for the truth while hunting a Spectre" couldn't be done twice. The first game almost necessitated the style of ME2 because it was so complete. I have ideas about things they could have done instead, but these ideas aren't yet formed enough to compose a full game, let alone two.
No, its fine. Its just sad how far the game has to go out of its way to railraod the player. It just gets very tirering after a while. The suits come with built recorders for battle and they never even get used. Nobody once brings a camera on any mission. They blow up everything that could possibly convince them. Radiometric dating should show the dragons teeth and the materials making soverign are not Geth origin, but its never even mentioned. I just give up.Il Divo wrote...
Vaenier wrote...
You are right, this plot is just too railroaded. I want the option to open the Citadel relay and say frak you to the galaxy. I am tired of debate. Have a nice day.
Just to be clear, I wasn't purposely trying to antagonize you. I apologize if that is how my post came off.
wulf3n wrote...
Superstitious force? no ones trying to make the reapers out to be gods. and everything they ARE is what exists within the galaxy already.
Sentient AI - Already exists with the Geth
Ancient Superior Technology - do i even have to explain.
Vaenier wrote...
No, its fine. Its just sad how far the game has to go out of its way to railraod the player. It just gets very tirering after a while. The suits come with built recorders for battle and they never even get used. Nobody once brings a camera on any mission. They blow up everything that could possibly convince them. Radiometric dating should show the dragons teeth and the materials making soverign are not Geth origin, but its never even mentioned. I just give up.
Il Divo wrote...
Sentient AI - Already exists with the Geth
Ancient Superior Technology - do i even have to explain.
Yes, an explanation is necessary. What you are suggesting involves several contradictions in what the galaxy regards as true. The galaxy thinks that the Protheans built the Mass Relays, the Citadel, etc. They think that they are responsible for finding the leftover Mass Effect technology. They do not think that are being manipulated into using it by some race of machines which plans on murdering them.
Il Divo wrote...
You're simplifying the argument by narrowing it down to 'AI exists' so Reapers can exist. Where are they? Why is there no trace of their existence (as the Turian Councilor says)? Try explaining to someone what a Reaper is and why they have never encountered one and see how long they would take you seriously.
Nightwriter wrote...
I don’t understand why they insisted that we spend all of ME2 letting the plot stagnate with that tired old plot device when we could’ve done away with it at last, had a Council that believes us, and let the plot move in a new fresh direction where stuff is actually happening.
Seems like a clear stall tactic imo. They didn't know how to advance the plot before ME3 and instead tried to freeze it in place.
wulf3n wrote...
But the fact that they utilize technology that they don't understand show's evidence that there are/were species out there with abilities beyond their comprehension.
In Exile wrote...
For all the poor writing decisions in ME2, fixing an ME1 plothole is not one of them.
The Council believing you after the attack on the Citadel is 100% incoherent. The Council has no new evidence at that point compared to what they had before Ilos.
In Exile wrote...
If I show up in the middle of Africa with an Ipad, does that prove to the isolated tribesmen the gods are real?wulf3n wrote...
But the fact that they utilize technology that they don't understand show's evidence that there are/were species out there with abilities beyond their comprehension.
Modifié par wulf3n, 17 janvier 2011 - 11:59 .
Il Divo wrote...
Oh, I agree. Having thought about it so much, I've given up on actually trying to fathom how some characters are able to believe in Reapers (Anderson, your squad mates, the Cerberus crew) and others not (the Council, general populous) based on evidence and lack of evidence. It hurts my brain too much and I enjoy the experience more when I just 'run with it'.
Modifié par tonnactus, 18 janvier 2011 - 12:35 .
In Exile wrote...
Nightwriter wrote...
I don’t understand why they insisted that we spend all of ME2 letting the plot stagnate with that tired old plot device when we could’ve done away with it at last, had a Council that believes us, and let the plot move in a new fresh direction where stuff is actually happening.
Seems like a clear stall tactic imo. They didn't know how to advance the plot before ME3 and instead tried to freeze it in place.
For all the poor writing decisions in ME2, fixing an ME1 plothole is not one of them.
The Council believing you after the attack on the Citadel is 100% incoherent. The Council has no new evidence at that point compared to what they had before Ilos.
iakus wrote...
That's probably the main problem of ME2. While we can argue the relative merits of suit recordings, testimony of witnesses, visions from "embracing eternity" Ilos, and seeing a Reaper in your rearview mirror, the fact of the matter is, at the end of ME 1, the Council/Udina does believe you. In ME 2, they do not, with zero explanation as to why or how this changed. If a coherent explanation had been provided, maybe it could have been forgiven. As it stands right now, it smacks of "We don't like how we ended ME 1, so we're gonna change it around to suit the story we want to tell"
Il Divo wrote...
Why did the Council believe it during the battle for the Citadel?All they saw was a superpowerful ship, which doesn't support it being a 'reaper' necessarily. There is very little consistent logic in how Bioware goes about this.
Nightwriter wrote...
In Exile wrote...
For all the poor writing decisions in ME2, fixing an ME1 plothole is not one of them.Nightwriter wrote...
I don’t understand why they insisted that we spend all of ME2 letting the plot stagnate with that tired old plot device when we could’ve done away with it at last, had a Council that believes us, and let the plot move in a new fresh direction where stuff is actually happening.
Seems like a clear stall tactic imo. They didn't know how to advance the plot before ME3 and instead tried to freeze it in place.
The Council believing you after the attack on the Citadel is 100% incoherent. The Council has no new evidence at that point compared to what they had before Ilos.
wulf3n wrote...
But the fact that they utilize technology that they don't understand show's evidence that there are/were species out there with abilities beyond their comprehension.
Why would AI need to leave a trace? what trace would AI even leave? not to mention that if they're older than Protheans, and even traces of prothean existence is unique, why is it so hard to believe Reaper traces are next to impossible to find.
and it's not just that AI exists, it's that AI is the biggest threat to organic life, as stated by the council. So a race of Machines should not be far fetched to them as they've already identified how big of a threat AI is.
Modifié par Il Divo, 18 janvier 2011 - 12:48 .
tonnactus wrote...
It would be far better if the council believed that sovereign was the only reaper that was left/existed.Because there is really no evidence that more then one ever existed.
Il Divo wrote...
So how does this point to Reapers? They could call it lost Prothean technology. They can call it 'state of the art' Geth tech. They can say it's ancient, but how does pointing out advanced technology allow Shepard to convince the Council "Hey guys, I know all you saw were some really big guns, but that thing was sentient. There's alot more of them hiding out in dark space and they've exterminated every past species and are going to do so again". This simply does not follow just from seeing Sovereign fire a gun.
Il Divo wrote...
...If traces of Reapers are impossible to find, then Reapers cannot exist. That's how it goes. I can say that demons exist, but they use 'magic' to hid from us. Well, it makes sense, but how do you prove the existence of a demon if there's nothing you can point to?
The Turian Councilor's point is that if there have been Reapers and they've exterminated every past civilization, then there should be some trace, whether from the Reapers or other civilizations, that something really bad happened. However, Mass Effect leads us to believe that Liara aside, every major scholar insists on the Protheans.
Il Divo wrote...
The Council believed that the Quarians represented the first ever experience with AI, and the dangers of such. They have never had actual contact with a Reaper, how could they believe in one?
Modifié par wulf3n, 18 janvier 2011 - 12:53 .
Sajuro wrote...
One person needs to believe in you so you can believe in the them that believes in you
If a sentient starship whose technology is BILLIONS of years more advanced than ours doesn't make salvage techs go OMG WTF IS THIS SH*T?! then you've either failed to make smart scientists or you should've written the alien menace as being several billion years younger, perhaps only a few hundred/thousand years ahead of us.cachx wrote...
Well... technically they don't...
Unless Sovereign had a giant bumper sticker that said "Reaper" on him.
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