241 réponses à ce sujet

[Praetor Knight]

james1976 wrote...

My weapons rarely overheated in ME1. If you had good mods, a good weapon, and decent aim you were fine. My last time through with an Infiltrator my sniper rifle overheated once or twice but my pistol never did. On my first time through the game my soldier's assault rifle rarely overheated. If it did, it was because I wasn't paying enough attention to it.

That's one advantage to the Thermal Clips, your attention is less divided with micromanaging, you just reload a new heat sink and you're good to go.

[Sidney]

james1976 wrote...

This!  I hate looking for thermal clips and miss customizing my weapons.  Ammo powers are a poor replacement and a pathetic excuse for skills.  The powers fill the sorely lacking skills available to you in ME2 and replace ammo mods at the same time.  Making the game dumbed down in my opinion.

Apparently you just hate looking for clips - and how hard was it ever to find them- because you like looking for the mods and that was 10000x more annoying. The dumbed down part is that there weree mods where you could just 100% nerf guns at the end and mash the trigger for an entire level with no thought because you'd applied enough mods. Mindlessly spraying bullets through the entire level isn't smart - is the game mechanic from Contra.

[JKoopman]

Lumikki wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

Well then, perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but it sounds like the only difference you're describing is that one system forces you to spend time between each battle scavenging for clips while the other does not. To which I must ask, is that really benefiting gameplay?

Because it force you to move from safe cover positions. Overheat doesn't, it allows you be in safe cover forever, because nothing force you out of it.

Also, I'm still not following how limited ammo is a necessitating balance factor. How is...

[POP][POP][POP]**[POP][POP][POP]**[POP][POP][POP] = 3 enemies dead

any different from...

[POW]***[KA-CHUNK]**[POW]***[KA-CHUNK]**[POW] = 3 enemies dead

Because it's not that way.

[POP][POP][POP]**[POP][POP][POP]**[POP][POP][POP] = 3 enemies dead (overheat)
[POP][POP][POP]**[POP][POP][POP]**[POP][POP][POP] = 3 enemies dead (overheat)
[POP][POP][POP]**[POP][POP][POP]**[POP][POP][POP] = 3 enemies dead (overheat)
[POP][POP][POP]**[POP][POP][POP]**[POP][POP][POP] = 3 enemies dead (overheat)
ALL DEAD now MOVE

[POP][POP][POP]*[POP][POP][POP]*[POP][POP][POP] [MOVE]= 3 enemies dead (termal clip)
[POP][POP][POP]*[POP][POP][POP]*[POP][POP][POP] [MOVE]= 3 enemies dead (termal clip)
[POP][POP][POP]*[POP][POP][POP]*[POP][POP][POP] [MOVE]= 3 enemies dead (termal clip)
[POP][POP][POP]*[POP][POP][POP]*[POP][POP][POP] [MOVE]= 3 enemies dead (termal clip)
ALL DEAD

Balance isn't just between fast fire rate vs low fire rate. But also runing out of ammos, force you to move what is also time out, what allows higher fire rate than not need to move. Of cause the example if little over done, but you get the meaning?

Things like changing battle circumstances, an enemy group flanking you, an overheated or Sabotaged weapon ALL forced you to move and change positions in ME1 just as well as thermal clips do in ME2, and ME2's rock-paper-scissors armor mechanic also does a good enough job of encouraging players to switch weapons according to the defenses they're facing. That isn't an issue of weapon balance. It's an issue of gameplay and playstyle.

You're arguing a position that my experience with both games is completely contrary to.

I don't HAVE to move in ME2 when my Mantis runs out of thermal clips. I can simply switch to my Locust or my Phalanx and continue to take pot shots at enemies from long range until the battle is over and I can go on my thermal clip scavenger hunt. So the balance that you're saying thermal clips bring to the table quite simply doesn't exist, and it becomes purely an annoyance factor (in other words, I enjoy sniping and don't want to switch to my SMG or pistol for anything but close-quarters).

I understand the argument you're making and the way you say it should work; that it's better game design to force players to keep moving so they don't hunker down in one spot for the entire battle (I'd argue that if that's the way some players want to play the game, then that's their choice, but that's another thread in itself). I'm just saying that thermal clips don't accomplish that in ME2.

Modifié par JKoopman, 20 janvier 2011 - 09:17 .

[Felfenix]

Nobody actually offers how heat made the game MORE tactical. Considering the people who just want to turtle up with one weapon run out of ammo on insanity and then come to the forum to complain they have to move around the battlefield, swap weapons, or consider their tactics better, it's clear the ammo system is a success in punishing less tactical play while rewarding more tactical play. There is no risk v reward or need to think at all under the heat system.

[JKoopman]

Felfenix wrote...

Nobody actually offers how heat made the game MORE tactical. Considering the people who just want to turtle up with one weapon run out of ammo on insanity and then come to the forum to complain they have to move around the battlefield, swap weapons, or consider their tactics better, it's clear the ammo system is a success in punishing less tactical play while rewarding more tactical play. There is no risk v reward or need to think at all under the heat system.

No one here has argued that the cooldown mechanic made ME1 more tactical. Merely that it didn't make it less tactical than thermal clips and reloading.

[Lumikki]

JKoopman wrote...

No one here has argued that the cooldown mechanic made ME1 more tactical. Merely that it didn't make it less tactical than thermal clips and reloading.

I did argue about it, when I sayed that termal clips causes player move more and doesn't allow to stay in safe cover position as long player wants. Ability stay in one spot as safe is less tactical, than player is forced to move or take other actions.

How ever, you did not accepted my argument and there is nothing what I can do about it. Everyone can have they own opinions. There are in both systems disadvances and advances, but in my opinion as making combat feel better (reload & higher differences in weapons) and more tactical (movement & weapon switching), is where termal clips has more advances. 

Modifié par Lumikki, 21 janvier 2011 - 01:13 .

[james1976]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

james1976 wrote...

My weapons rarely overheated in ME1. If you had good mods, a good weapon, and decent aim you were fine. My last time through with an Infiltrator my sniper rifle overheated once or twice but my pistol never did. On my first time through the game my soldier's assault rifle rarely overheated. If it did, it was because I wasn't paying enough attention to it.

That's one advantage to the Thermal Clips, your attention is less divided with micromanaging, you just reload a new heat sink and you're good to go.

No less divided than having to play easter egg hunt for more clips.  Sometimes there's enough, and sometimes you just miss some.  That's more annoying.

Sidney wrote...

james1976 wrote...



This!  I
hate looking for thermal clips and miss customizing my weapons.  Ammo
powers are a poor replacement and a pathetic excuse for skills.  The
powers fill the sorely lacking skills available to you in ME2 and
replace ammo mods at the same time.  Making the game dumbed down in my
opinion.

Apparently you just hate looking for clips -
and how hard was it ever to find them- because you like looking for the
mods and that was 10000x more annoying. The dumbed down part is that
there weree mods where you could just 100% nerf guns at the end and mash
the trigger for an entire level with no thought because you'd applied
enough mods. Mindlessly spraying bullets through the entire level isn't
smart - is the game mechanic from Contra.

No one said anything about mindlessly spraying bullets. 
Mods were never hard to find, you just shopped for them like you did
weapons and armor.  Hell if you did the side missions you probably found
better than you could buy anyway.

Modifié par james1976, 20 janvier 2011 - 11:51 .

[Praetor Knight]

james1976 wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

That's one advantage to the Thermal Clips, your attention is less divided with micromanaging, you just reload a new heat sink and you're good to go.

No less divided than having to play easter egg hunt for more clips.  Sometimes there's enough, and sometimes you just miss some.  That's more annoying.

I've run the soldier the most (with the majority of playthroughs on Insanity), so I know what you mean about there not being enough clips in a few areas.

I had to adjust to moving around more often than I wanted with certain ME2 loadouts, but it was fun IMHO, it's not too bad once you learn how the levels are setup.



Edit: Gah, the editing.

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 20 janvier 2011 - 11:59 .

[Sidney]

james1976 wrote...
No one said anything about mindlessly spraying bullets. 
Mods were never hard to find, you just shopped for them like you did
weapons and armor.  Hell if you did the side missions you probably found
better than you could buy anyway.

Thermals were never hard to find either.

As for spraying, if only "tactical" thing about overheat was, well, maybe overheating and since mods could effectively end that little problem you lose any "tactical" element from overheating.

Even that statement is a bit much since overheating isn't tactical in anyway, there's a single solution to the problem so you can't really adjust and adapt to differing conditions with different fire discipline but overheating was a way to dumb down gun combat so I guess it worked for some people.

[fLoki]

So just to add that while i would prefer a hybrid as i stated before.. Imho my biggest issues with the clip system would actually be, not lore or really how it changes the gameplay, but the interface and "powerup" fashion the extra clips are scattered over maps.
The, what i can only call, "ammo" counter just doesnt give the impression that we are dealing with heat.. Older icon would have been better.. just have it go red over time then reload. And have K or C by the number as they increase.

And clips you can find on maps.. they just have, for me, the feeling like i am running around in an arcade fashion, trying to find powerups. And also having certain spots respawn ammo.. just adds to that feel. I dont mind looting the corpses but i really dislike the way the clips are dispenced on every map.  Maybe putting them in boxes we can open instead of just lying around would be better.. dunno really.

Modifié par fLoki, 21 janvier 2011 - 12:24 .

[Rahzar]

I didn't really have the time to sit and read all the other posts, but I at least wanna show tell you guys my idea to solve the ammo/overheat issue (this is also in my ME3 idea blog, linked in signature).  Here it is.

One heat sink is permanent (built into the gun) and will not be disposed.  This permanent heat sink will remain in use until it overheats.  When it overheats, the weapon will switch to using a disposable heat sink (aka Thermal Clip).  If the weapon continues to fire (using thermal clips), the permanent heat sink will cool down slowly.  If the weapon stops firing for a few seconds the permanent heat sink will cool down more quickly.  Once the permanent heat sink has cooled down sufficiently, the weapon will start using it again.

Modifié par Rahzar, 21 janvier 2011 - 12:36 .

[JKoopman]

Sidney wrote...

james1976 wrote...
No one said anything about mindlessly spraying bullets. 
Mods were never hard to find, you just shopped for them like you did
weapons and armor.  Hell if you did the side missions you probably found
better than you could buy anyway.

Thermals were never hard to find either.

As for spraying, if only "tactical" thing about overheat was, well, maybe overheating and since mods could effectively end that little problem you lose any "tactical" element from overheating.

That you could circumvent the overheat/cooldown mechanic was a failing of one specific overpowered late-game weapon mod, not a fundamental failing of the overheat/cooldown mechanic itself, and brings us back around to the argument that any problems with ME1's combat system could've been solved by simply rebalancing or removing the offending mod rather than gutting the cooldown mechanic completely and replacing it with ammo.

[Praetor Knight]

JKoopman wrote...

That you could circumvent the overheat/cooldown mechanic was a failing of one specific overpowered late-game weapon mod, not a fundamental failing of the overheat/cooldown mechanic itself, and brings us back around to the argument that any problems with ME1's combat system could've been solved by simply rebalancing or removing the offending mod rather than gutting the cooldown mechanic completely and replacing it with ammo.

We know that the ejected heat sinks of ME2 glow orange, so if the heat sink is made of ceramic then that heat sink is storing anywhere between 750 ºC (1382 ºF) to 3410 °C, (6170 °F) of heat.

My question is, how is the heat sink cooled down in ME in the first place?

[Tony Gunslinger]

fLoki wrote...
The, what i can only call, "ammo" counter just doesnt give the impression that we are dealing with heat.. Older icon would have been better.. just have it go red over time then reload. And have K or C by the number as they increase.

I agree that the interface could be more tied to heat than mere numbers, perhaps a bit of both (numbers turning from cool colors to warm colors)

A few last thoughts for the short-term memory folks. There was a penality when you overheat in ME1, and depending on upgrades, it lasted anywhere between 3-7 seconds or something like that. Because all of the weapons were automatic and you can put in frictionless materials, you couldn't count shots very easily so you had to pay attention to the heat bar in the corner of your screen all the time. The normal cooldown rate was dynamic; meaning the more you fire the slower you had to wait before the meter goes back to zero. In comparison, an ME2 reload takes 1.5 seconds (pistols and SMGs are slightly less). So if the Mattock were set up so that I would fire 16 shots as fast as I can (approx 2.75-3 seconds) without overheating, does that mean I need to wait 1.5 seconds for the meter to go back to zero? And if so, does that mean if I fired off 1 quick shot, it takes (1.5 seconds / 16) = .09 seconds to cool off, therefore allowing me to shoot an infinite amount of shots at a rate of .09 seconds per shot? The other option would be to keep the cooldown at a fixed rate, but then what is the point of one assault rifle with a different RoF than another? This is why all guns in ME2 had the exact same RoF, because the overheating factor dictated the entire design.

Modifié par Tony Gunslinger, 21 janvier 2011 - 03:09 .

[Valo_Soren]

Because people with nothing better to do have to have something to whine about, be it whether or not there will be Multiplayer in ME 3 or how to handle gun ammo because barely anyone save a small few like me, trust in Bioware to make everything. this is in response to the discussion topic not in answer to anyone else's post.

[james1976]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

james1976 wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

That's one advantage to the Thermal Clips, your attention is less divided with micromanaging, you just reload a new heat sink and you're good to go.

No less divided than having to play easter egg hunt for more clips.  Sometimes there's enough, and sometimes you just miss some.  That's more annoying.

I've run the soldier the most (with the majority of playthroughs on Insanity), so I know what you mean about there not being enough clips in a few areas.

I had to adjust to moving around more often than I wanted with certain ME2 loadouts, but it was fun IMHO, it's not too bad once you learn how the levels are setup.



Edit: Gah, the editing.

I've had to adapt as well.  It can be difficult playing ME1 with a character and then importing to ME2 as soon as you finish ME1 as you have to adjust to the new system again.  Then after finishing ME2 and starting a new character in ME1, you have to re-adjust again.

[james1976]

Sidney wrote...

james1976 wrote...
No one said anything about mindlessly spraying bullets. 
Mods were never hard to find, you just shopped for them like you did
weapons and armor.  Hell if you did the side missions you probably found
better than you could buy anyway.

Thermals were never hard to find either.

As for spraying, if only "tactical" thing about overheat was, well, maybe overheating and since mods could effectively end that little problem you lose any "tactical" element from overheating.

Even that statement is a bit much since overheating isn't tactical in anyway, there's a single solution to the problem so you can't really adjust and adapt to differing conditions with different fire discipline but overheating was a way to dumb down gun combat so I guess it worked for some people.

I suppose my biggest issue with it all isn't the heat system versus thermal clip system anyway.  I'll call it a small annoyance and leave it at that.  In regards to ammo, since this is the topic of this thread, it is more on ammo powers.  The ammo powers replace ammo mods.  And while being able to just switch ammo powers on the fly might seem like a good idea to some and more tactical, you could just mod different weapons with different ammo mods in ME1, just switch weapons.  ME2's total lack of skills is the killer for me, though I love the game.  You have so few skills and then they put these ammo power skills in there and that is ultimately why ME2 seems dumbed down to me.  Because in ME1 you had many skills, and some skills affected how your powers performed in different ways.  Thus the skills worked together.  ME1 had complexity where ME2 does not....ME2 seems over simplified.