241 réponses à ce sujet

[Burdokva]

JKoopman wrote...

Simple solution to ME1's weapon system: Remove and rebalance overpowered weapon mods

Overkill solution to ME1's weapon system: Strip overheat system completely and replace with polar opposite and totally non-sensical ammo "thermal clip" system

That ME1's weapon mods could make for overpowered end-game/replay weaponry isn't a question. What irks a lot of ME1 fans is that rather than fixing the obviously fixable problem, they simply gutted it and replaced the overheat mechanic with a thinly-veiled clone of every other shooter in complete defiance of the established lore and all common sense, then slapped a half-assed band-aid explaination on top and called it a day.

Well, that sums it up. A perfect solution that BioWare have somehow ommited...

Personally, I've modded my ME2 to make weapons heat-based, to remove ammo clips being dropped by enemies and the occasional ammo "lockers" you find give you a smaller return. Honestly, it's now far more tactical because you actually have to preserve ammo, rely on squad members for coveting fire and not shoot like a madman. You overheat/run out of ammo, it'll be a while before you can defend yourself because ammo won't spawn magically.

ME1's system was flawed, but fix-able. ME2's system is just stupid. 

[Lunatic LK47]

Drasynd wrote...

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Uh, mainly because only half of the classes only had access to a pistol exclusively. Don't tell me about the "bonus skill" bull**** advice to counteract it. No one should have to resort to it just to avoid the problem.

There are more then just weapons, if you don't know how to use them, well thats your problem.
I don't limit my pc's, to the skill's they start out with (bonus skills are there for a reason) but once again it's YOUR CHOISE to limit YOUR pc.

My point still stands, regardless of the experience with the weapons. I only use a Soldier or Infiltrator exclusively just because of having access to at least two weapons (Pistol and AR, or Pistol and Sniper Rifle).. BTW, "Sabotage cripples your weapons" situation does happen regardless of you trying to avoid it. I don't have special eyes that can spot a pen laser 5 miles away just to avoid the tick-sized mine.

Regarding the bonus skill: Are you going to expect a construction worker to do heart surgery on you if he never had any medical experience? I sure as hell wouldn't.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

I only ever use three weapons and always have enough ammo

1 AR

2 SR

3 the collector laser thingy (only use on bosses)

[Drasynd]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

My point still stands, regardless of the experience with the weapons. I only use a Soldier or Infiltrator exclusively just because of having access to at least two weapons (Pistol and AR, or Pistol and Sniper Rifle).. BTW, "Sabotage cripples your weapons" situation does happen regardless of you trying to avoid it. I don't have special eyes that can spot a pen laser 5 miles away just to avoid the tick-sized mine.

Regarding the bonus skill: Are you going to expect a construction worker to do heart surgery on you if he never had any medical experience? I sure as hell wouldn't.

If you limit yourself to those two classes, then there's nothing that can be said.
Maybe you should learn about positioning, in most cases those tick-sized mines hit the wall or any other barrier and the mines have a time limit. I can wait, can YOU!

Also one wisdom "KNOW YOUR ENEMY", it has served me well.

[Lunatic LK47]

Drasynd wrote...
Maybe you should learn about positioning, in most cases those tick-sized mines hit the wall or any other barrier and the mines have a time limit. I can wait, can YOU!

Uh, too bad those moments happen in very dark areas, and they all involve open ground where there's either very little or no cover (i.e. Citadel Alley and Major Kyle's planet come into mind.).

[Drasynd]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Uh, too bad those moments happen in very dark areas, and they all involve open ground where there's either very little or no cover (i.e. Citadel Alley and Major Kyle's planet come into mind.).

I've never been hit by a mine in citadel alley (rest of my team is another story (enemy: salarian - highly likely that they are tech's) and Major Kyle, have you ever tried the PARAGON option.
You don't have to shoot your way thru everything, there are diplomatic options, but this is allready too much OFF TOPIC.
So let's just agree to disagree, it's easier that way.

Modifié par Drasynd, 18 janvier 2011 - 11:29 .

[JKoopman]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Drasynd wrote...

So the only reason you defend the ammo system is that you only knew how to use 1 weapon and couldn't adapt to the situation, when faced with a sabotage attack.

Uh, mainly because only half of the classes only had access to a pistol exclusively. Don't tell me about the "bonus skill" bull**** advice to counteract it. No one should have to resort to it just to avoid the problem.

Those classes that only had access to a pistol in ME1 (Adept, Engineer and Sentinel) also had a sh*t-ton of biotic and tech powers to fall back on, so you were far from helpless during those brief 8-10 seconds that your weapon was Sabotaged.

I also have to point out that being temporarily Sabotaged is better than being permanently out of thermal clips. And if Sabotage was really that annoying, again, it would've been much easier and gentler on the pre-existing fanbase for BioWare to simply remove it (perhaps with the explanation that new weapon firewall software prevents them from being so easily hacked) and call it a day, rather than gutting the whole system.

Modifié par JKoopman, 18 janvier 2011 - 05:47 .

[The Spamming Troll]

Lumikki wrote...

How does "get rid of the Frictionless Materials mod" fix that half the game sniper rifle is useless?

the sniper was useless because you invested in something else instead. just like throw would suck if you didnt invest in that either. the sniper was inefective because there was no localised damage. that head shot means as much as a toe shot. nobodys advocating for a return to crappy game design here.

[Lunatic LK47]

JKoopman wrote...

Those classes that only had access to a pistol in ME1 (Adept, Engineer and Sentinel) also had a sh*t-ton of biotic and tech powers to fall back on, so you were far from helpless during those brief 8-10 seconds that your weapon was Sabotaged.

Uh, not that simple. Either A. The cooldowns took 30- 120 seconds  minimum just to fill up (depending on the skill in question), or B. Someone spammed damping. It's a whole other can of worms that is not worth the hassle. Adepts had it the worse in terms of not being able to have the proper skills available at the lower levels because A. He/she can't get pistol training unless he/she wasted points into Armor, and B. The biotic powers take a full minute just to recharge. Even maxed out doesn't make it worth the hassle (i.e. 40 seconds of waiting.) They don't exactly have access to Adrenaline Burst.

I also have to point out that being temporarily Sabotaged is better than being permanently out of thermal clips. And if Sabotage was really that annoying, again, it would've been much easier and gentler on the pre-existing fanbase for BioWare to simply remove it (perhaps with the explanation that new weapon firewall software prevents them from being so easily hacked) and call it a day, rather than gutting the whole system.

It could have been worse compared to the older RPGs (i.e. U mu5t by @mm0 11111111)

Modifié par Lunatic LK47, 18 janvier 2011 - 09:08 .

[JKoopman]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

Those classes that only had access to a pistol in ME1 (Adept, Engineer and Sentinel) also had a sh*t-ton of biotic and tech powers to fall back on, so you were far from helpless during those brief 8-10 seconds that your weapon was Sabotaged.

Uh, not that simple. Either A. The cooldowns took 30- 120 seconds  minimum just to fill up (depending on the skill in question), or B. Someone spammed damping. It's a whole other can of worms that is not worth the hassle. Adepts had it the worse in terms of not being able to have the proper skills available at the lower levels because A. He/she can't get pistol training unless he/she wasted points into Armor, and B. The biotic powers take a full minute just to recharge. Even maxed out doesn't make it worth the hassle (i.e. 40 seconds of waiting.) They don't exactly have access to Adrenaline Burst.

I would be willing to agree that certain classes could be hit harder than others by Sabotage and the weapon skill tree, but the fact remains that neither of those necessitated thermal clips to solve them. I don't mind that the weapon skill tree was removed in ME2 and that aiming is now 100% up to the skill of the player; it may not be conventional for an RPG, but it works. Nor would I care if Sabotage as an ability was removed (even though the inclusion of SMGs and bonus weapon training as well as Heavy Weapons would be enough to mitigate the damage it could inflict, I believe).

Thermal clips were an unnecessary answer to a problem that didn't exist.

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

I also have to point out that being temporarily Sabotaged is better than being permanently out of thermal clips. And if Sabotage was really that annoying, again, it would've been much easier and gentler on the pre-existing fanbase for BioWare to simply remove it (perhaps with the explanation that new weapon firewall software prevents them from being so easily hacked) and call it a day, rather than gutting the whole system.

It could have been worse compared to the older RPGs (i.e. U mu5t by @mm0 11111111)

I don't understand. You're saying that, because it could've been way worse, that makes it alright to make things only a little bit worse? Because I'd rather they make things better, honestly, but that's just me.

Modifié par JKoopman, 18 janvier 2011 - 09:48 .

[Bluko]

I see this is one of those topics that doesn't seem to go away.

I'm not entirely opposed to the thermal clip system, as for the most part combat in ME2 betters from it. Though it does grain against me as a rather bad retcon of sorts namely due to the fact that limited use heatsinks seems like a technological step backwards. I also dislike the fact that all the rounds fired are essentially tracer rounds, in terms of looks ME1had a more unique and distinct feel. Also the bullet effects seemed better representative of the fact that rounds are fired at supersonic speeds. Where as ME2 is pretty much like every other Sci-Fi shooter now with laser bullets everywhere.

Anyways my true gripe with the Thermal Clip system is that you run out of clips. This makes weapons like Shotguns and Sniper rifles a lot less less favorable as you only have a handful of clips for them. The other problem is after every fight you have to go and scrounge ammo. I really liked in ME1 you didn't have to go and loot bodies for weapons, ammo, and armor. It was a breath of fresh air to play a shooter that did not require you to be scavenger in order to play. Now in ME2 you have to waste time looking for ammo and the all-too convient little stashes of thermal clips that just happen to be in the middle of no-where.

I don't have a problem with the heatsinks and having a finite number of shots with each gun, but heatsinks need to be re-usable or something. I think it would add a lot to the game if heatsinks slowly cooled down over time so that you could use them again. Although I do see how a mandatory time waiting constraint could be difficult to implement.

One idea I'd had is why doesn't Shepard just use their Omni-Tool to reconstruct/cool heatsinks? Say you use all the heatsink capacity for a weapon.

You have two choices:

1) Switch to a new weapon quickly and continue firing.
2) Use your Omni-Tool to restore your heatsinks, the only downside is this process takes about 10 seconds and is risky to use during actual combat as you are vulnerable during this time. Ideally you should only do it when combat is over.

Modifié par Bluko, 18 janvier 2011 - 09:52 .

[Lunatic LK47]

JKoopman wrote...

I don't understand. You're saying that, because it could've been way worse, that makes it alright to make things only a little bit worse? Because I'd rather they make things better, honestly, but that's just me.

I'd like things to be better myself. Alan Wake's flashlight could have been the better solution (i.e. Recharge over time, but pop in a fresh heat sink if you want a faster cooldown)

[expanding panic]

Part of the problem with the ME1 over heat method is that I found it to make the Snipper and Shotgun unusable because after 2 shots they were over heated so you have to wait for them to cool down. And if you have an assualt rifle you can spray and pray. I think the ME2 system allows you to shoot faster and have to chose your shots more carefully.

[JKoopman]

expanding panic wrote...

Part of the problem with the ME1 over heat method is that I found it to make the Snipper and Shotgun unusable because after 2 shots they were over heated so you have to wait for them to cool down. And if you have an assualt rifle you can spray and pray. I think the ME2 system allows you to shoot faster and have to chose your shots more carefully.

The simple solution to that is not to fire your sniper rifle and shotgun like they're full-auto assault rifles. If you fire one shot with the SR and then wait for it to cool before taking a second shot, the delay is less than what you currently have to wait between each shot with the Mantis in ME2. It's only if you fire two shots in rapid succession that the SR overheats, even using the starter rifle with no mods.

Honestly, if people practiced a little trigger discipline instead of holding down the trigger until their weapon overheats, I think there'd be a lot fewer complains about the old system. And as the new system often creates just as much if not more downtime, I fail to see how these people view it as an improvement.

[Praetor Knight]

When I first saw the title I assumed it was relating to ammo powers. But since this related to Thermal Clips, I'll share something I stumbled upon recently when I was trying to figure them out, I just hope it's not considered spoilers.

This is a scan from 360 Game Manual that explains how they work.



Particularly this section: Thermal Clips hold a store of disposable heat sinks universal to all small arms. Instead of waiting for an overheated weapon to cool down, you can simply eject the spent heat sink and the clip feeds in a new one.

So ME had one heat sink in the weapons that can be sabotaged and you had to wait for it to cool.

ME2 has multiple heat sinks in the weapons that can be used one after another.

The second part to note is where it is explained how the red bar (shown below) in-between the "ammo" numbers on the HUD is the current heat sink in use, as seen in the picture below. (Also this part of the HUD is labeled as Heat Management in the manual.)




So, IMHO Thermal Clips are a major improvement. All that I would like to see is have them replenish without having to scavenge about the battlefields after a fight.

[Felfenix]

JKoopman wrote...

I love how the one and only argument I see raised again and again against the old system is always "I modded my Spectre X rifle with dual Frictionless Material Xs and I could fire forever blah blah blah." That was your choice! Nothing in the game forced you to put those mods in your weapons and you could've just as easily put dual Scram Rail Xs or dual Kinetic Coil Xs or any other combination of weapon upgrades on them if you didn't want "easy mode". Complaining about your own choice of mods is like complaining that a game is too easy because you downloaded a trainer and gave yourself unlimited health and ammo.

And honestly, if that's the only complaint people have, wouldn't it have been far easier and less jarring to the fanbase for them to simply get rid of the Frictionless Materials mod rather than "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" as it were?

Or the arguments that you never had to change weapons under the heat system. What is your argument against ammo? "ZOMG! IT'S JUST LIKE SHOOTERS NOW!!!" So what?

[JKoopman]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

When I first saw the title I assumed it was relating to ammo powers. But since this related to Thermal Clips, I'll share something I stumbled upon recently when I was trying to figure them out, I just hope it's not considered spoilers.

This is a scan from 360 Game Manual that explains how they work.



Particularly this section: Thermal Clips hold a store of disposable heat sinks universal to all small arms. Instead of waiting for an overheated weapon to cool down, you can simply eject the spent heat sink and the clip feeds in a new one.

So ME had one heat sink in the weapons that can be sabotaged and you had to wait for it to cool.

ME2 has multiple heat sinks in the weapons that can be used one after another.

The second part to note is where it is explained how the red bar (shown below) in-between the "ammo" numbers on the HUD is the current heat sink in use, as seen in the picture below. (Also this part of the HUD is labeled as Heat Management in the manual.)




So, IMHO Thermal Clips are a major improvement. All that I would like to see is have them replenish without having to scavenge about the battlefields after a fight.

That makes absolutley no sense.

So because the game manual describes thermal clips in a way that doesn't even jive with how they operate in-game (thermal clips clearly are not universal to all arms as I can't transfer clips from my pistol when my sniper rifle runs out and vice versa) and because there's a graphical bar representing the same number of shots left in your current clip as the number immediately to it's left, thermal clips somehow make perfect sense and are a major improvement? Care to elaborate on that a bit more?

[JKoopman]

Felfenix wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

I love how the one and only argument I see raised again and again against the old system is always "I modded my Spectre X rifle with dual Frictionless Material Xs and I could fire forever blah blah blah." That was your choice! Nothing in the game forced you to put those mods in your weapons and you could've just as easily put dual Scram Rail Xs or dual Kinetic Coil Xs or any other combination of weapon upgrades on them if you didn't want "easy mode". Complaining about your own choice of mods is like complaining that a game is too easy because you downloaded a trainer and gave yourself unlimited health and ammo.

And honestly, if that's the only complaint people have, wouldn't it have been far easier and less jarring to the fanbase for them to simply get rid of the Frictionless Materials mod rather than "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" as it were?

Or the arguments that you never had to change weapons under the heat system. What is your argument against ammo? "ZOMG! IT'S JUST LIKE SHOOTERS NOW!!!" So what?

My argument against the ammo system is that it directly conflicts with the established lore and all common sense, breaks the flow of gameplay and restricts your usage of weapons. That it's clearly just a half-assed copy of every other shooter is just icing on the sh*t cake, as it were.

[RazRei]

DTKT wrote...

Actually, I found that I frequently ran out of ammo.

If there was some kind of regeneration, maybe I would look at the issue differently but I would like the ammo system to change in ME3.

I never ran out of ammo but I did get close in some combat situations.  I too would like to see a comprimise between ME1 ammo vs ME2 ammo.

[Mecha Tengu]

technically it's not really "ammo"



the thermal clip is not the clip you are inserting in the gun that carries the bullets to shoot the gun.

It's just a form of pseudo ammo that streamlines the game to make it more similar to a shooter.



The concept of thermal clips is to pew pew, and instead of waiting to overheat, inserting a clip. The amount of clips you have is not really an indication of your ammunition, the ammunition is a solid piece of metal inside your gun that gets chipped off to make a bullet, which can produce thousands of rounds



To best explain it: maybe they should have kept the ME1 overheating system, and instead of waiting to cool down, insert a clip which resets the heat bar.

[Felfenix]

JKoopman wrote...

Felfenix wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

I love how the one and only argument I see raised again and again against the old system is always "I modded my Spectre X rifle with dual Frictionless Material Xs and I could fire forever blah blah blah." That was your choice! Nothing in the game forced you to put those mods in your weapons and you could've just as easily put dual Scram Rail Xs or dual Kinetic Coil Xs or any other combination of weapon upgrades on them if you didn't want "easy mode". Complaining about your own choice of mods is like complaining that a game is too easy because you downloaded a trainer and gave yourself unlimited health and ammo.

And honestly, if that's the only complaint people have, wouldn't it have been far easier and less jarring to the fanbase for them to simply get rid of the Frictionless Materials mod rather than "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" as it were?

Or the arguments that you never had to change weapons under the heat system. What is your argument against ammo? "ZOMG! IT'S JUST LIKE SHOOTERS NOW!!!" So what?

My argument against the ammo system is that it directly conflicts with the established lore and all common sense, breaks the flow of gameplay and restricts your usage of weapons. That it's clearly just a half-assed copy of every other shooter is just icing on the sh*t cake, as it were.

As opposed to the infinite energy, infinite firing weapons? And as far as "established lore" the universe developed and moved onto new things. Everyone using the clip system is no sillier than everyone using the heat system.

Only needing to ever use one weapon is a problem with the game, and most people felt the heat system broke the flow of gameplay. As much as you talk like your opinion is absolute fact: It's just some belligerent internet forum opinion that's way too worked up over the smallest, most meaningless thing.

[Praetor Knight]

JKoopman wrote...

That makes absolutley no sense.

So because the game manual describes thermal clips in a way that doesn't even jive with how they operate in-game (thermal clips clearly are not universal to all arms as I can't transfer clips from my pistol when my sniper rifle runs out and vice versa) and because there's a graphical bar representing the same number of shots left in your current clip as the number immediately to it's left, thermal clips somehow make perfect sense and are a major improvement? Care to elaborate on that a bit more?

Well, dunno if it makes perfect sense and it does seem counter-intuitive, but it seems to fit with how I understand what is shown in game.

When a Thermal Clip is picked up, any weapon that is not topped off will get refilled. So the heat sinks are universal because all weapons that need them can use any Thermal Clip to fill them back up.

The reason heat sinks in separate weapons are not communal is because they are already loaded inside of those particular weapons.

So for example the Avenger has eleven heat sinks loaded inside for a total of 440 shots, with each heat sink allowing you to fire 40.

The Scimitar has three heat sinks for a total of 24 shots, upgraded there are four heat sinks for a total of 32 shots, with each heat sink allowing you to fire 8 shots.

The Shuriken has eleven heat sinks for a total of 264 shots, upgraded
there are 15 heat sinks for a total of 360 shots, with each heat sink
allowing you to fire 24 shots.

I hope I've given adequate examples, of how I understand it works.

Just to add, I could be wrong.

[Praetor Knight]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

To best explain it: maybe they should have kept the ME1 overheating system, and instead of waiting to cool down, insert a clip which resets the heat bar.

I agree, I know the numbers displayed confused me for a long time, as to how the weapons are supposed to work.

The HUD should simply have shown what you described.

[JKoopman]

Felfenix wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

Felfenix wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

I love how the one and only argument I see raised again and again against the old system is always "I modded my Spectre X rifle with dual Frictionless Material Xs and I could fire forever blah blah blah." That was your choice! Nothing in the game forced you to put those mods in your weapons and you could've just as easily put dual Scram Rail Xs or dual Kinetic Coil Xs or any other combination of weapon upgrades on them if you didn't want "easy mode". Complaining about your own choice of mods is like complaining that a game is too easy because you downloaded a trainer and gave yourself unlimited health and ammo.

And honestly, if that's the only complaint people have, wouldn't it have been far easier and less jarring to the fanbase for them to simply get rid of the Frictionless Materials mod rather than "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" as it were?

Or the arguments that you never had to change weapons under the heat system. What is your argument against ammo? "ZOMG! IT'S JUST LIKE SHOOTERS NOW!!!" So what?

My argument against the ammo system is that it directly conflicts with the established lore and all common sense, breaks the flow of gameplay and restricts your usage of weapons. That it's clearly just a half-assed copy of every other shooter is just icing on the sh*t cake, as it were.

As opposed to the infinite energy, infinite firing weapons? And as far as "established lore" the universe developed and moved onto new things. Everyone using the clip system is no sillier than everyone using the heat system.

Energy isn't a requirement in ME2 either, so I fail to see the relevance. And as for infinite-firing, it's been explained time and time again that the ammo blocks inside each weapon provide something on the order of 4,000+ rounds, making ammunition effectively a non-issue on a single mission. This was translated in gameplay as infinite ammunition with the assumption that ammo blocks were changed out between each mission while onboard the Normandy.

Be that as it may, as everyone is so fond of pointing out, the thermal clips are not ammunition, meaning that weapons in ME2 are just as "infinite firing" as in ME1. They just need thermal clips to keep from melting into a pile of slag.

And yes, a weapon system that's been in use for who knows how many decades or centuries being saturated throughout the galaxy is infinitely more believable than an entire galaxy adopting a completely new weapon system in the space of 2 years that was supposedly taken from the Geth even though the Geth were never seen to use thermal clips in ME1, and apparently retroactively modifying every previous weapon in the galaxy to accept thermal clips to the point where Zaeed's rifle was ejecting them 3 years before they were introduced and a bunch of civilians marooned on a planet for a decade were carrying clip-fed weapons a full 8 years before they were even invented.

Felfenix wrote...

Only needing to ever use one weapon is a problem with the game, and most people felt the heat system broke the flow of gameplay. As much as you talk like your opinion is absolute fact: It's just some belligerent internet forum opinion that's way too worked up over the smallest, most meaningless thing.

This presumes that one looks at it as "only needing to ever use one gun" instead of "being able to use whichever gun I prefer". I don't look at being able to use a sniper rifle throughout the entire game if I so choose as a negative that needs correcting.

My opinion has only ever been my opinion, and at no point have I made any assertions otherwise. Simply because I actually attempt to explain my point of view doesn't make it belligerent.

Modifié par JKoopman, 19 janvier 2011 - 12:55 .

[Ryzaki]

Thank you PC mod that allows every class to have the soldier loadout.



And really f*** Shepard being the only one climbing over crates for thermal clips. F*** that noise.