241 réponses à ce sujet

[JKoopman]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

That makes absolutley no sense.

So because the game manual describes thermal clips in a way that doesn't even jive with how they operate in-game (thermal clips clearly are not universal to all arms as I can't transfer clips from my pistol when my sniper rifle runs out and vice versa) and because there's a graphical bar representing the same number of shots left in your current clip as the number immediately to it's left, thermal clips somehow make perfect sense and are a major improvement? Care to elaborate on that a bit more?

Well, dunno if it makes perfect sense and it does seem counter-intuitive, but it seems to fit with how I understand what is shown in game.

When a Thermal Clip is picked up, any weapon that is not topped off will get refilled. So the heat sinks are universal because all weapons that need them can use any Thermal Clip to fill them back up.

The reason heat sinks in separate weapons are not communal is because they are already loaded inside of those particular weapons.

So for example the Avenger has eleven heat sinks loaded inside for a total of 440 shots, with each heat sink allowing you to fire 40.

The Scimitar has three heat sinks for a total of 24 shots, upgraded there are four heat sinks for a total of 32 shots, with each heat sink allowing you to fire 8 shots.

The Shuriken has eleven heat sinks for a total of 264 shots, upgraded
there are 15 heat sinks for a total of 360 shots, with each heat sink
allowing you to fire 24 shots.

I hope I've given adequate examples, of how I understand it works.

Just to add, I could be wrong.

That still doesn't explain why I can't take those extra clips that I use to reload my assault rifle and put them in my sniper rifle instead.

[Mecha Tengu]

JKoopman wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

That makes absolutley no sense.

So because the game manual describes thermal clips in a way that doesn't even jive with how they operate in-game (thermal clips clearly are not universal to all arms as I can't transfer clips from my pistol when my sniper rifle runs out and vice versa) and because there's a graphical bar representing the same number of shots left in your current clip as the number immediately to it's left, thermal clips somehow make perfect sense and are a major improvement? Care to elaborate on that a bit more?

Well, dunno if it makes perfect sense and it does seem counter-intuitive, but it seems to fit with how I understand what is shown in game.

When a Thermal Clip is picked up, any weapon that is not topped off will get refilled. So the heat sinks are universal because all weapons that need them can use any Thermal Clip to fill them back up.

The reason heat sinks in separate weapons are not communal is because they are already loaded inside of those particular weapons.

So for example the Avenger has eleven heat sinks loaded inside for a total of 440 shots, with each heat sink allowing you to fire 40.

The Scimitar has three heat sinks for a total of 24 shots, upgraded there are four heat sinks for a total of 32 shots, with each heat sink allowing you to fire 8 shots.

The Shuriken has eleven heat sinks for a total of 264 shots, upgraded
there are 15 heat sinks for a total of 360 shots, with each heat sink
allowing you to fire 24 shots.

I hope I've given adequate examples, of how I understand it works.

Just to add, I could be wrong.

That still doesn't explain why I can't take those extra clips that I use to reload my assault rifle and put them in my sniper rifle instead.

you are not "reloading" anything. The thermal clip itself is NOT the ammunition for the gun, its a heat cooling system for the gun, and is universal with all guns. The actual ammunition is a piece of metal inside the gun

[JKoopman]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

That makes absolutley no sense.

So because the game manual describes thermal clips in a way that doesn't even jive with how they operate in-game (thermal clips clearly are not universal to all arms as I can't transfer clips from my pistol when my sniper rifle runs out and vice versa) and because there's a graphical bar representing the same number of shots left in your current clip as the number immediately to it's left, thermal clips somehow make perfect sense and are a major improvement? Care to elaborate on that a bit more?

Well, dunno if it makes perfect sense and it does seem counter-intuitive, but it seems to fit with how I understand what is shown in game.

When a Thermal Clip is picked up, any weapon that is not topped off will get refilled. So the heat sinks are universal because all weapons that need them can use any Thermal Clip to fill them back up.

The reason heat sinks in separate weapons are not communal is because they are already loaded inside of those particular weapons.

So for example the Avenger has eleven heat sinks loaded inside for a total of 440 shots, with each heat sink allowing you to fire 40.

The Scimitar has three heat sinks for a total of 24 shots, upgraded there are four heat sinks for a total of 32 shots, with each heat sink allowing you to fire 8 shots.

The Shuriken has eleven heat sinks for a total of 264 shots, upgraded
there are 15 heat sinks for a total of 360 shots, with each heat sink
allowing you to fire 24 shots.

I hope I've given adequate examples, of how I understand it works.

Just to add, I could be wrong.

That still doesn't explain why I can't take those extra clips that I use to reload my assault rifle and put them in my sniper rifle instead.

you are not "reloading" anything. The thermal clip itself is NOT the ammunition for the gun, its a heat cooling system for the gun, and is universal with all guns. The actual ammunition is a piece of metal inside the gun

You're ejecting the spent thermal clip and loading in a new one: reloading. That's the word the game itself even uses to describe the process.

I never mentioned ammunition, and I'm fully aware how the weapons function.

Modifié par JKoopman, 19 janvier 2011 - 01:06 .

[Mecha Tengu]

JKoopman wrote...

Mecha Tengu wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

That makes absolutley no sense.

So because the game manual describes thermal clips in a way that doesn't even jive with how they operate in-game (thermal clips clearly are not universal to all arms as I can't transfer clips from my pistol when my sniper rifle runs out and vice versa) and because there's a graphical bar representing the same number of shots left in your current clip as the number immediately to it's left, thermal clips somehow make perfect sense and are a major improvement? Care to elaborate on that a bit more?

Well, dunno if it makes perfect sense and it does seem counter-intuitive, but it seems to fit with how I understand what is shown in game.

When a Thermal Clip is picked up, any weapon that is not topped off will get refilled. So the heat sinks are universal because all weapons that need them can use any Thermal Clip to fill them back up.

The reason heat sinks in separate weapons are not communal is because they are already loaded inside of those particular weapons.

So for example the Avenger has eleven heat sinks loaded inside for a total of 440 shots, with each heat sink allowing you to fire 40.

The Scimitar has three heat sinks for a total of 24 shots, upgraded there are four heat sinks for a total of 32 shots, with each heat sink allowing you to fire 8 shots.

The Shuriken has eleven heat sinks for a total of 264 shots, upgraded
there are 15 heat sinks for a total of 360 shots, with each heat sink
allowing you to fire 24 shots.

I hope I've given adequate examples, of how I understand it works.

Just to add, I could be wrong.

That still doesn't explain why I can't take those extra clips that I use to reload my assault rifle and put them in my sniper rifle instead.

you are not "reloading" anything. The thermal clip itself is NOT the ammunition for the gun, its a heat cooling system for the gun, and is universal with all guns. The actual ammunition is a piece of metal inside the gun

You're ejecting the spent thermal clip and loading in a new one: reloading.

I never mentioned ammunition, and I'm fully aware how the weapons function.

It's a form of pseudo reloading that allows mass effect to be streamlined into any similar shooter, while not contradicting of the canon established in ME1 physics and mechanics

[JKoopman]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

It's a form of pseudo reloading that allows mass effect to be streamlined into any similar shooter, while not contradicting of the canon established in ME1 physics and mechanics

I'd beg to differ with you on the "not contradicting the canon established in ME1" part, but I won't get into that right now.

Regardless, as the game itself uses the word "reloading" to describe the process, that's the word I use.

Modifié par JKoopman, 19 janvier 2011 - 01:16 .

[Praetor Knight]

JKoopman wrote...

That still doesn't explain why I can't take those extra clips that I use to reload my assault rifle and put them in my sniper rifle instead.

I figure that the reason we cannot put heat sinks loaded in one weapon into another weapon is because the first weapon may have to be dissembled to do be able to extract the heat sinks, or more likely the heat sinks would have to be removed one by one at best.

So, with the second method, the way I picture it working is, it is like trying to unload a Winchester lever-action Repeater, contemporary shotgun or an M1 Garand by ejecting the heat sinks one by one. 

I theorize that with Thermal Clips, the heats sinks might not be stored inside it as a contemporart magazine would store bullets.

I'm also not clear if Thermal Clips are used inside the weapons either. And Thermal Clips could just as easily work like a bullet clip or a speedloader.

[Kusy]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

That still doesn't explain why I can't take those extra clips that I use to reload my assault rifle and put them in my sniper rifle instead.

I figure that the reason we cannot put heat sinks loaded in one weapon into another weapon is because the first weapon may have to be dissembled to do be able to extract the heat sinks, or more likely the heat sinks would have to be removed one by one at best.

I think your explanation is a bit too complicated and detailed considering the termal clips disapear and magicaly add to your "heat" meter when you step on them instead of Shepard picking them up and placing in the gun.

Modifié par Mr.Kusy, 19 janvier 2011 - 01:46 .

[Praetor Knight]

Mr.Kusy wrote...

I think your explanation is a bit too complicated and detailed considering the termal clips disapear and magicaly add to your "heat" meter when you step on them instead of Shepard picking them up and placing in the gun.

True, I just figure it goes unanimated for gameplay streamlining purposes.

But like a particular squadmate does before recruiting him, fit the theory to the evidence



*******************************************************
Also, now this is pure speculation on my part, what if the heat sink material is actually just a thermal paste or a Thermal Gel that is stored in the Thermal Clips and used in the weapons?

All that would be needed is a catalyzer that hardens the paste/gel for ejection.

Edit: spelling

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 19 janvier 2011 - 02:00 .

[expanding panic]

JKoopman wrote...

expanding panic wrote...

Part of the problem with the ME1 over heat method is that I found it to make the Snipper and Shotgun unusable because after 2 shots they were over heated so you have to wait for them to cool down. And if you have an assualt rifle you can spray and pray. I think the ME2 system allows you to shoot faster and have to chose your shots more carefully.

The simple solution to that is not to fire your sniper rifle and shotgun like they're full-auto assault rifles. If you fire one shot with the SR and then wait for it to cool before taking a second shot, the delay is less than what you currently have to wait between each shot with the Mantis in ME2. It's only if you fire two shots in rapid succession that the SR overheats, even using the starter rifle with no mods.

Honestly, if people practiced a little trigger discipline instead of holding down the trigger until their weapon overheats, I think there'd be a lot fewer complains about the old system. And as the new system often creates just as much if not more downtime, I fail to see how these people view it as an improvement.

I don't want to have to wait. If I'm aiming at someones chest I want to be able to rapid fire at that person chest without waiting. I give up the power for speed with both the sniper and shot gun. I forget what the guns are called. But they are both the semi automatic. You can not do that in ME1. Again speed kills. 

Also it is not like I'm holding down the trigger and just moving left and right on the screen. I aim and when I have a lock I want to be able to shoot until the guy dies. Just my opinion. I know people like power but again I go more for speed.

[Weiser_Cain]

expanding panic wrote...

I don't want to have to wait. If I'm aiming at someones chest I want to be able to rapid fire at that person chest without waiting. I give up the power for speed with both the sniper and shot gun. I forget what the guns are called. But they are both the semi automatic. You can not do that in ME1. Again speed kills. 

Also it is not like I'm holding down the trigger and just moving left and right on the screen. I aim and when I have a lock I want to be able to shoot until the guy dies. Just my opinion. I know people like power but again I go more for speed.

The you don't want a Sniper rifle, you want an assault rifle. A,d I'd suggest you use some heat reduction mods, then you can spray and pray to your heart's content.

[Felfenix]

Geth and Collectors dropping the same kind of ammo as everyone else is silly.

About as silly as Geth dropping several guns, all being the same kind used as everyone else, and medigel, in ME1. It's a video game. Enemies drop useful "loot".

Why do they drop ammo all over the battlefield so I have to run around and pick it up?

Risk v Reward. If you're running out of ammo due to your playstyle, meaning you probably both misuse your guns and stick to one location on the battlefield, then you are forced to either shoot more efficiently, or take the risk of being more mobile in order to get the extra ammo you desire mid-battle.

What was wrong with the heat system?

1. It allowed for "spraying" of shots. There was no penalty for firing innaccurately and wasting shots. Under the ammo system, you will not be able to use a gun anymore if you use it poorly. If you're not literally shooting the enemy, then you're metaphorically shooting yourself in the foot. Punishing mindless play, and rewarding smart play.
2. You could get by using only one gun, regardless of the circumstance. Under the ammo system, if you try to use only one weapon, which is usually inefficient, then you will run out of ammo. Example: Using a sniper rifle to finish off low health enemies, something more appropriate for a pistol, or overusing the sniper rifle, which should be reserved for sniping. Another example: Using a weapon which is weak against armor against and armored enemy, instead of using a weapon strong against armor. Punishing mindless play, and rewarding smart play.

Why don't we get a total ammo pool that all guns share? How come I can't take my clips out of my pistol and put them in my sniper rifle?

When you pick up ammo, it distributes that ammo across all weapons, instead of ignoring your full weapons and prioritizing your empty weapons. Again, this is reward using a diversity of weapons to their strengths, instead of one weapon only, regardless of situation or the weapon's weakness. Smart use of multiple weapons based on the weapon's various strengths and utilities will allow you to not worry about ammo even on insanity.

They dumbed down ME1 combat!!!

They didn't. They now punish mindless people who play dumb, and reward those who think about their weapon usage. The heat system offered no benefit over the clip system in the interest of "smart play" and actually rewarded dumb play: such as only using one kind of weapon, regardless of circumstance, and allowing for bullet spray with no penalty.

What is bullet spray?

It is NOT holding down the trigger and firing for too long. Spraying is firing innaccurately or thoughtlessly, usually hoping to hit a target with luck instead of careful aim and planning.

It ruins the lore!

They added new lore to explain the system. Nobody can make you read, understand, or like it, but it's there.

[Gleym]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

When I first saw the title I assumed it was relating to ammo powers. But since this related to Thermal Clips, I'll share something I stumbled upon recently when I was trying to figure them out, I just hope it's not considered spoilers.

This is a scan from 360 Game Manual that explains how they work.



Particularly this section: Thermal Clips hold a store of disposable heat sinks universal to all small arms. Instead of waiting for an overheated weapon to cool down, you can simply eject the spent heat sink and the clip feeds in a new one.

So ME had one heat sink in the weapons that can be sabotaged and you had to wait for it to cool.

ME2 has multiple heat sinks in the weapons that can be used one after another.

The second part to note is where it is explained how the red bar (shown below) in-between the "ammo" numbers on the HUD is the current heat sink in use, as seen in the picture below. (Also this part of the HUD is labeled as Heat Management in the manual.)




So, IMHO Thermal Clips are a major improvement. All that I would like to see is have them replenish without having to scavenge about the battlefields after a fight.

Sure was nice of the Alliance to land on Aeia where Jacob's dad and all those soldiers were stranded, upgrade all of their weapons and leave them a ton of thermal clips before abandoning them. Or to replace all of the Geth's weaponry with thermal clips variants as well. I mean, shucks, the Alliance is so nice, they even went ahead and supplied the Quarian Flotilla with the latest, state-of-the-art weaponry that runs on thermal clips, even though Quarians have to scrounge for everything all the same. And let's not forget how swell they are for supplying all of Omega, a crime den that survives on the black market of weapon mods-- Oh, wait, sorry, weapon mods don't exist anymore.

Yeah. Sure does make perfect sense to me.

[Felfenix]

As much sense as every Geth dropping three Avenger Assault rifles that are Alliance standard issue.

[Gleym]

Actually, the Geth dropping Alliance weaponry makes perfect sense: The Geth study other races and try to advance their own. It'd make sense for them to take any tech they find in the field and either study it or use it to create their own weapons. Unless you're going to tell me that the Geth magically fart materials to create their own weapons.

Modifié par Gleym, 19 janvier 2011 - 06:52 .

[Felfenix]

Gleym wrote...

Actually, the Geth dropping Alliance weaponry makes perfect sense: The Geth study other races and try to advance their own. It'd make sense for them to take any tech they find in the field and either study it or use it to create their own weapons. Unless you're going to tell me that the Geth magically fart materials to create their own weapons.

And that's a perfect explanation for them dropping thermal clips. Instead of taking all these extra guns that every Geth is picking up off Alliance soldiers and such, you're just taking the clips, though I'm sure the Geth would be interested in the clip technology itself since it's fairly new. As far as "How come any weapon can use thermal clips?" it's explained in the codex with the Locust that just about any weapon using the heat system can be modified or retrofitted to use thermal clips.

Modifié par Felfenix, 19 janvier 2011 - 07:08 .

[Gleym]

Still doesn't explain:

Aeia where Jacob and the other soldiers were stranded for TEN YEARS.

Or Omega.

Or the Flotilla.

Or any of the other numerous instances where these places shouldn't have improved firearms.

[Felfenix]

Because it's an out of universe gameplay reason. Just like everyone, everywhere, offering the same firearms in ME1, or why there are such massive statistical differences in quality between weapons in ME1: Why would Shepard start with the worst possible weapon, as an elite Alliance operative? What are the chances that everytime you find a new weapon, on the ground, it's superior to the weapon you had? People already complain about ammo being in limited supply what with it dropping everywhere. Imagine having missions where there is no ammo. In both games there are various things in place for gameplay reasons. It's a video game. You're just nitpicky for the sake of your hatred.

As far as why thermal clips on Omega or the Flotilla, I fail to see why there wouldn't be, as Omega is a great place for black market goods and the Quarians aren't completely isolated or obsolete: they have young people on pilgrimages who bring technology/ideas back. Omega and the Flotilla having the same clip technology as the Alliance/Citadel makes as much sense as everyone, regardless of location/background/circumstance in ME1 having the same brands/models of weaponry, or random gift stores having guns/armor/tech better than the Spectre armory on the Citadel.

As in a prior post on this page, the clip system offers superior gameplay, and if the only issue is the lore, well the writers who wrote the lore can easily create explanations. It's an extremely small and overall meaningless aspect of the lore.

Modifié par Felfenix, 19 janvier 2011 - 07:24 .

[InvincibleHero]

Felfenix wrote...

Because it's an out of universe gameplay reason. Just like everyone, everywhere, offering the same firearms in ME1, or why there are such massive statistical differences in quality between weapons in ME1: Why would Shepard start with the worst possible weapon, as an elite Alliance operative? What are the chances that everytime you find a new weapon, on the ground, it's superior to the weapon you had? People already complain about ammo being in limited supply what with it dropping everywhere. Imagine having missions where there is no ammo. In both games there are various things in place for gameplay reasons. It's a video game. You're just nitpicky for the sake of your hatred.

As far as why thermal clips on Omega or the Flotilla, I fail to see why there wouldn't be, as Omega is a great place for black market goods and the Quarians aren't completely isolated or obsolete: they have young people on pilgrimages who bring technology/ideas back. Omega and the Flotilla having the same clip technology as the Alliance/Citadel makes as much sense as everyone, regardless of location/background/circumstance in ME1 having the same brands/models of weaponry, or random gift stores having guns/armor/tech better than the Spectre armory on the Citadel.

As in a prior post on this page, the clip system offers superior gameplay, and if the only issue is the lore, well the writers who wrote the lore can easily create explanations. It's an extremely small and overall meaningless aspect of the lore.

The Volus reverse engineered the heat clips and are selling them at half price to everyone.  That or China back on Earth.

[ObserverStatus]

On Hardcore mode, I was always running out, and had to go scavenging in combat, particularly on the collector ship.

[ObserverStatus]

Ryzaki wrote...

Thank you PC mod that allows every class to have the soldier loadout.

And really f*** Shepard being the only one climbing over crates for thermal clips. F*** that noise.

I agree, the enemies never seem to run out of ammo >

[Lotion Soronarr]

Drasynd wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Ammo for people who have no patiance? I's day otherwise.
Ammo is something that has to be conserved. That automaticly forces the player to be more patient and tactical in his fights.
And it also foces him to be more pro-active.

With the ME1 sistem, you can fire a burst, drop behind cover...fire a burst, drop behind cover...again and again and again ad infinitum, untill you slowly whittle the enemy down. ME2 forces the player to adop different tactics. He has to get out of cover. Encircle..flank..before he runs out of ammo.

ammo >>>>>>> no ammo

Yeah, adopt pure SHOOTER tactics (play ME2 with standard FPS tactics and it's really easy).
IF the enemy had the SAME LIMITATIONS ON AMMO then maybe, but they have UNLIMITED AMMO on any and all weapons.

Pro-active as in "RUN FOR THE AMMO" active (been there, done that (more times that I might LIKE)).
And if your style in ME1, is SLOMO tactic, well there's nothing I or anyone can do about that, it's your choise.

Is somethnig wrong with shooter tactics? Heck, I play SWAT games...they are aslo shooters. Are they un-tactical and brainless?
I kinda figure that games who base their gameplay of shooting things witll do better with the aspect of SHOOTING THINGS.

And no. Your pathetic argument "well, the abuse exiost, Just don't use it" is laughable. You don't fix a gaping flaw in a system by telling epoepl not to abuse it. You fix it by FIXING THE FLAW.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

in shooter games to enemies ever run out of ammo?

Modifié par DinoSteve, 19 janvier 2011 - 08:38 .

[Felfenix]

You could just cover and wait out enemies if they could run out of ammo. It would be a joke.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DinoSteve wrote...

in shooter games to enemies ever run out of ammo?

Sometimes they do. Depends on the game.


***

EDIT: about thermal clips not being universal - no, tehy are universall...trought a weapon class.

Al lassault rifles use the same thermal clips. all pistols use the same thermal clip. It makes sense. After all, thermal clips go into a weapon, and the shape and size of the weapon limits the thermal clip.

As a result, a pistol can only take smaller termal clips ( jsut liek a pistol can't take in an assault rifel magazine - it's just too big for it). Assault Rifles take medium ones. Sniper rifles take large ones.
Makes sense.

[Katamariguy]

The laws of thermodynamics.