241 réponses à ce sujet

[Tony Gunslinger]

Ahglock wrote...
I'm curious outside the dedicated sniper.  Do you or does anyone else ever actually run out of ammo in this game?  I never have, so exactly how did it effect or add to my gameplay?  You and all the pro-thermal clip crowds have never answered this.  If something never comes up, how does it make your game play better.  Quick answer is that it doesn't, it did nothing for game play. 
The one exception might be the dedicated sniper and then likely only the dedicated soldier sniper, because the infiltrator can sneak up to gather heat sinks in the field.  And since ammo is never an issue your entire argument about not being bale to make different guns in an unlimited ammo system is moot.  Unlimited and effectively unlimited because you never run out are the same damn thing. 
The reason why guns are so well balanced in ME2 has nothing to do with total ammo, but ammo per clip, rate of fire, and base dps differences so end DPS is roughly the same.  It is not ammo until you run out that is the balancer in ME2 but ammo until you need to reload, which pretty much mirrors a heat system. 

If there so unlimited ammo, would you ever want to use the Predator after you've picked up the Carniflex? Would you ever wanted to use the Viper if you could deal more damage with the Mantis? Will you ever switch your SMG or pistol if the Mattock never runs of of ammo? How is ammo capacity not an issue?

Also, unlimited ammo encourages parking, which was the most exploited tactic in ME1. If the Mantis never runs out of ammo, why bother risking yourself if you can hang back, send your squadmates to trigger enemies and snipe them? ME2 penalizes parking by spawning more enemies if you do not advance certain areas fast enough. You'll have to kill more enemies, which means you'll waste more ammo. ME2 also eliminated gaining EXP through killing so there is no incentive to park and grind.

[JKoopman]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

For the record, I think the clip system, while an embarassing retcon, works far better.

I'd just like to ask how there is an embarrassing retcon with Thermal Clips?

ME2 weapons still use heat sinks, and Thermal Clips allow the user to speed load more heat sinks into the weapons instead of waiting for a cool down.



***************************
Going by the wiki on retcon, Thermal Clips might be considered an additive retcon, which IMHO is not embarrassing and fits with upgrading weapons from ME to ME2.

Either way the retcon concept is thrown around too easily IMHO; and at least for me, carries a negative connotation in most circumstances I've seen it used.

It's not a retcon, no, and most people use the word wrong regarding ME2 'ammo'.

Q&A dropped the ball with ME2, though, letting too many inconsistencies in the story slip through. The people claiming a 'retcon' are doing so from a mistaken asumption that the plotholes/inconsistencies are 'canon' and everything else is an error. That, despite the devs have even said on these very same boards why things are like they are, and what the 'real' canon is (ie. thermal clips are a an evolution of the heat-sink mechanics of weapons in the timeframe of the series).

In "star wars" and "Lord of the rings" people laugh about the plotholes and inconsistencies that slipped through Q&A, but recongize them as such. Yet for some reason some people prefer asuming the same type of plotholes and inconsistencies are 'the truth' and the rest of the lore are wrong or retconned in the "Mass Effect" series, purely because they don't like the evolution of the canon lore. It boggles the mind, sometimes.

It's a retcon insofar as we're told that thermal clips as a technology were taken from the Geth during the events of ME1 yet we acquire several Geth weapons during the course of the game and all of them use the standard cooldown mechanic.

[JKoopman]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

Ahglock wrote...
I'm curious outside the dedicated sniper.  Do you or does anyone else ever actually run out of ammo in this game?  I never have, so exactly how did it effect or add to my gameplay?  You and all the pro-thermal clip crowds have never answered this.  If something never comes up, how does it make your game play better.  Quick answer is that it doesn't, it did nothing for game play. 
The one exception might be the dedicated sniper and then likely only the dedicated soldier sniper, because the infiltrator can sneak up to gather heat sinks in the field.  And since ammo is never an issue your entire argument about not being bale to make different guns in an unlimited ammo system is moot.  Unlimited and effectively unlimited because you never run out are the same damn thing. 
The reason why guns are so well balanced in ME2 has nothing to do with total ammo, but ammo per clip, rate of fire, and base dps differences so end DPS is roughly the same.  It is not ammo until you run out that is the balancer in ME2 but ammo until you need to reload, which pretty much mirrors a heat system. 

If there so unlimited ammo, would you ever want to use the Predator after you've picked up the Carniflex? Would you ever wanted to use the Viper if you could deal more damage with the Mantis? Will you ever switch your SMG or pistol if the Mattock never runs of of ammo? How is ammo capacity not an issue?

I would, yes. But then, I use whichever guns suit my playstyle and my character concepts, not whichever guns have the highest DPS output. For example, I have Miranda and Kasumi equiped with Phalanx pistols because they seem more like the sleek, high-tech type. On the other hand, I have Zaeed and Jack equiped with Carnifex pistols because a meaty "high caliber" pistol suits their characters. As for my Shepard(s), my hardass Soldier uses the Carnifex and my stealthy Infiltrator uses the Phalanx.

Would I ever equip the Predator on anyone? No. But that has nothing to do with it's damage output and everything to do with the fact that it doesn't look, feel or sound impressive.

Same thing with other weapon classes. Legion is the only one of any of my characters that I equip with the Geth weaponry (because, well, he's a Geth), Thane gets the Viper because it seems to suit him better, Garrus gets the Incisor because the blue matches his armor, etc.

Maybe that's unusual, but that's how I roleplay.

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

Also, unlimited ammo encourages parking, which was the most exploited tactic in ME1. If the Mantis never runs out of ammo, why bother risking yourself if you can hang back, send your squadmates to trigger enemies and snipe them? ME2 penalizes parking by spawning more enemies if you do not advance certain areas fast enough. You'll have to kill more enemies, which means you'll waste more ammo. ME2 also eliminated gaining EXP through killing so there is no incentive to park and grind.

Which completely contradicts the notion that unlimited ammo and a cooldown mechanic encourages people to "rush into battle guns blazing".

Ultimately, it's up to individual play style. Whether players have unlimited ammo and a cooldown or limited ammo and instant reloads, they're going to play in whichever style they prefer. There are plenty of players who rush in guns blazing in ME2 knowing that they can instantly reload and don't have to worry about weapons overheating and there are plenty of players who sit back taking pot shots at enemies even with limited ammo. The same was true of ME1. Thermal clips do nothing to change or prevent that. Nor should they really. Players should be able to fight their battles however they so choose.

Modifié par JKoopman, 20 janvier 2011 - 06:23 .

[Schneidend]

[quote]Ahglock wrote...
I'm curious outside the dedicated sniper.  Do you or does anyone else ever actually run out of ammo in this game?  I never have, so exactly how did it effect or add to my gameplay?  You and all the pro-thermal clip crowds have never answered this.  If something never comes up, how does it make your game play better.  Quick answer is that it doesn't, it did nothing for game play. 
The one exception might be the dedicated sniper and then likely only the dedicated soldier sniper, because the infiltrator can sneak up to gather heat sinks in the field.  And since ammo is never an issue your entire argument about not being bale to make different guns in an unlimited ammo system is moot.  Unlimited and effectively unlimited because you never run out are the same damn thing. 
The reason why guns are so well balanced in ME2 has nothing to do with total ammo, but ammo per clip, rate of fire, and base dps differences so end DPS is roughly the same.  It is not ammo until you run out that is the balancer in ME2 but ammo until you need to reload, which pretty much mirrors a heat system.  [/quote]

[/quote]

I wouldn't say total thermal capacity is "never an issue". I've run out of clips for the Mantis, Incisor, Mattock, Vindicator, Katana, Scimitar, and Predator several times, especially when the game was newer to me. Now I know a few more tricks and generally never run out of ammo for anything but the Predator and Mantis. As player skill improves, maximum capacity becomes less of a concern.

I love the thermal clip system, but you bring up a good point, Ahglock. A good hybrid would be infinite total clips but still having to reload when you've fired your weapon's magazine.

[Praetor Knight]

JKoopman wrote...

It's a retcon insofar as we're told that thermal clips as a technology were taken from the Geth during the events of ME1 yet we acquire several Geth weapons during the course of the game and all of them use the standard cooldown mechanic.

The discrepancy is most likely from gameplay streamlining, and its a rare weapon anyway in ME for Shep & squad to use, at least in my playthroughs.

But, it is also possible that the Geth weapons in ME were modified so that they cool themselves, like other weapons. So, one can argue that the Alliance and Citadel races did not understand how they worked at the time, so they would modify the Geth weapons to what was familiar (also you could not put mods in those Geth weapons if I remember correctly, the ME2 version can accept ammo powers),

And lorewise, it did take some research to verify that ejectable heat sinks were more efficient, the question is how long did it take to figure that out, and when were they first adopted.

*****************************************************************************
Otherwise, the Geth had two versions of their weapons, one for Geth use (ejectable, and found in ME2) and a second for civilian use available through the Geth Armory (cool down ability, the ME version).

Edit: I was wrong and I crossed out my earlier speculation in this post.

After rereading posts in this thread and looking at the Codex entry again,

Thermal Clips are more likely a result of fighting the Geth between ME and ME2.

I love being on these forums!
(Not joking, I really do.)

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 20 janvier 2011 - 07:57 .

[Tsiper29]

 I prefer the over heating from Mass Effect 1 also.  I still really hate the heat clips.  I miss all the weapons mods from Mass Effect 1 also!:alien:

[Praetor Knight]

Schneidend wrote...

 A good hybrid would be infinite total clips but still having to reload when you've fired your weapon's magazine.

At least automatically refill the Thermal Capacity of the weapons after a fight and show Thermal Clips carried somewhere on the Armor, so that the changes have minimal impact on ME2's style of combat for ME3.

[Someone With Mass]

I don't hate the ammo system. I just think it goes against the codex and everything they said that was so good about the ammo in the ME universe.



It would be better if they had, as many before me suggested, a hybrid between the cooldown and the heatsink popping. At least in my opinion.

[Tony Gunslinger]

JKoopman wrote...
I would, yes. But then, I use whichever guns suit my playstyle and my character concepts, not whichever guns have the highest DPS output. For example, I have Miranda and Kasumi equiped with Phalanx pistols because they seem more like the sleek, high-tech type. On the other hand, I have Zaeed and Jack equiped with Carnifex pistols because a meaty "high caliber" pistol suits their characters. As for my Shepard(s), my hardass Soldier uses the Carnifex and my stealthy Infiltrator uses the Phalanx.

Would I ever equip the Predator on anyone? No. But that has nothing to do with it's damage output and everything to do with the fact that it doesn't look, feel or sound impressive.

Same thing with other weapon classes. Legion is the only one of any of my characters that I equip with the Geth weaponry (because, well, he's a Geth), Thane gets the Viper because it seems to suit him better, Garrus gets the Incisor because the blue matches his armor, etc.

Maybe that's unusual, but that's how I roleplay.

I think we're talking about gameplay mechanics and balance, not personal preference. If all you're saying is "I love unlimited ammo in ME1 because it fits the story", and then I say "Actually this is what's going to happen in ME2 gameplay-wise if there is unlimited ammo" and you say "Well it doesn't matter because I choose to ignore it" then what are we talking about?

JKoopman wrote...
Which completely contradicts the notion that unlimited ammo and a cooldown mechanic encourages people to "rush into battle guns blazing".

When I did I ever say that?

JKoopman wrote...
Ultimately, it's up to individual play style. Whether players have unlimited ammo and a cooldown or limited ammo and instant reloads, they're going to play in whichever style they prefer. There are plenty of players who rush in guns blazing in ME2 knowing that they can instantly reload and don't have to worry about weapons overheating and there are plenty of players who sit back taking pot shots at enemies even with limited ammo. The same was true of ME1. Thermal clips do nothing to change or prevent that. Nor should they really. Players should be able to fight their battles however they so choose.

You can't use personal preference as arguments about about gamepay mechanics when parts of it will clearly be exploits, and choosing not to exploit because you're role-playing "for real" doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[Zurcior]

JKoopman wrote...

It's a retcon insofar as we're told that thermal clips as a technology were taken from the Geth during the events of ME1 yet we acquire several Geth weapons during the course of the game and all of them use the standard cooldown mechanic.

 What? The Geth didn't have that tech in ME1. They made the thermal clip system after reviewing their battle logs during the events of ME1. And they made the heatsinks afterwards. No retcon.

[JKoopman]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

JKoopman wrote...
I would, yes. But then, I use whichever guns suit my playstyle and my character concepts, not whichever guns have the highest DPS output. For example, I have Miranda and Kasumi equiped with Phalanx pistols because they seem more like the sleek, high-tech type. On the other hand, I have Zaeed and Jack equiped with Carnifex pistols because a meaty "high caliber" pistol suits their characters. As for my Shepard(s), my hardass Soldier uses the Carnifex and my stealthy Infiltrator uses the Phalanx.

Would I ever equip the Predator on anyone? No. But that has nothing to do with it's damage output and everything to do with the fact that it doesn't look, feel or sound impressive.

Same thing with other weapon classes. Legion is the only one of any of my characters that I equip with the Geth weaponry (because, well, he's a Geth), Thane gets the Viper because it seems to suit him better, Garrus gets the Incisor because the blue matches his armor, etc.

Maybe that's unusual, but that's how I roleplay.

I think we're talking about gameplay mechanics and balance, not personal preference. If all you're saying is "I love unlimited ammo in ME1 because it fits the story", and then I say "Actually this is what's going to happen in ME2 gameplay-wise if there is unlimited ammo" and you say "Well it doesn't matter because I choose to ignore it" then what are we talking about?

That's all it is is personal preferrence. As you can't switch between the Predator and the Carnifex mid-mission, the only criteria for choosing a weapon is "Do I prefer high rate of fire and low damage or low rate of fire and high damage?" "Do I prefer high damage and low accuracy or high accuracy and low damage?"

As you yourself pointed out, the weapons in ME2 are all fairly balanced across ammo pools. The Carnifex has less overall ammo than the Predator, but it makes up for it with increased damage per shot to the point where overall they're both basically equal. That means that ammo effectively becomes a non-issue when choosing a weapon, as neither weapon has advantage over the others in it's class. The only criteria for selecting them then, logically, becomes whichever weapon suits your personal preference.

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

JKoopman wrote...
Which completely contradicts the notion that unlimited ammo and a cooldown mechanic encourages people to "rush into battle guns blazing".

When I did I ever say that?

You didn't. Several other pro-thermal-clip posters in this very thread have argued that the old cooldown mechanic allowed players to too easily rush into fights and spam their weapons to success, whereas limited ammo forces players to hang back, think tactically, take their time and make every shot count.

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

JKoopman wrote...
Ultimately, it's up to individual play style. Whether players have unlimited ammo and a cooldown or limited ammo and instant reloads, they're going to play in whichever style they prefer. There are plenty of players who rush in guns blazing in ME2 knowing that they can instantly reload and don't have to worry about weapons overheating and there are plenty of players who sit back taking pot shots at enemies even with limited ammo. The same was true of ME1. Thermal clips do nothing to change or prevent that. Nor should they really. Players should be able to fight their battles however they so choose.

You can't use personal preference as arguments about about gamepay mechanics when parts of it will clearly be exploits, and choosing not to exploit because you're role-playing "for real" doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

The point is, if two people on the same side of the fence, so to speak, can both have polar opposite ideas of what rules that system enforces, then what good is it as an argument? The thermal clip system doesn't prevent people from either rushing into battle guns blazing to great success or from hanging back and picking enemies off from a distance to great success. Nor did the unlimited ammo and cooldown mechanic of ME1 force players to do one or the other in order to succeed. The argument, effectively, then becomes about each players' personal preference and style, which wouldn't change no matter which system was implemented.

Modifié par JKoopman, 20 janvier 2011 - 07:15 .

[JKoopman]

Zurcior wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

It's a retcon insofar as we're told that thermal clips as a technology were taken from the Geth during the events of ME1 yet we acquire several Geth weapons during the course of the game and all of them use the standard cooldown mechanic.

 What? The Geth didn't have that tech in ME1. They made the thermal clip system after reviewing their battle logs during the events of ME1. And they made the heatsinks afterwards. No retcon.

Interesting. I could've sworn that the codex entry for thermal clips stated that the Alliance adopted them from the Geth after studying their battle logs from engagements with Geth forces. But going back into the codex now, it makes no mention of this. Perhaps BioWare patched the retcon hole in one of their prior updates? Anybody have any info on that?

Very well. Statement withdrawn.

Modifié par JKoopman, 20 janvier 2011 - 07:23 .

[Lumikki]

JKoopman wrote...
You didn't. Several other pro-thermal-clip posters in this very thread have argued that the old cooldown mechanic allowed players to too easily rush into fights and spam their weapons to success, whereas limited ammo forces players to hang back, think tactically, take their time and make every shot count.

I sayed those kind of comment, but I have no idea what this pro-termal-clip poster is. Limited ammo capacity cause more variables in weapon combat situation. it allows more differences in weapons, without breaking the balance. That's FACT.

The point is, if two people on the same side of the fence, so to speak, can both have polar opposite ideas of what rules that system enforces, then what good is it as an argument? The thermal clip system doesn't prevent people from either rushing into battle guns blazing to great success nor from hanging back and picking enemies off from a distance to great success. Nor did the unlimited ammo and cooldown mechanic of ME1 force people to do one or the other in order to succeed. The argument, effectively, then becomes about each players' personal preference and style, which wouldn't change no matter what system was implemented.

You are right it doesn't stop using any different tactics, even rush in battle with guns blazing in ME2. How ever, they aren't same, meaning it does matter what the system is, because there is also consider how easy some tactics are.

Unlimited "ammo" lures player to find the one best weapon to every situation game. Like it did in ME1. You can use other weapons sure, but they aren't real choises, they are the gimp gameplay choises.

To really have choise with weapons, all choises has to be about equal good. ME2 did this ALOT better than ME1 did. It's about understanding how the variable "ammo" affects to weapon based combat.

Modifié par Lumikki, 20 janvier 2011 - 07:31 .

[Zurcior]

JKoopman wrote...

Zurcior wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

It's a retcon insofar as we're told that thermal clips as a technology were taken from the Geth during the events of ME1 yet we acquire several Geth weapons during the course of the game and all of them use the standard cooldown mechanic.

 What? The Geth didn't have that tech in ME1. They made the thermal clip system after reviewing their battle logs during the events of ME1. And they made the heatsinks afterwards. No retcon.

Interesting. I could've sworn that the codex entry for thermal clips stated that the Alliance adopted them from the Geth after studying their battle logs from engagements with Geth forces. But going back into the codex now, it makes no mention of this. Perhaps BioWare patched the retcon hole in one of their prior updates? Anybody have any info on that?

Very well. Statement withdrawn.

Themal clips never had their own codex entry. That info is located elsewhere. So no, it wasn't removed because it never existed.

[Tony Gunslinger]

JKoopman wrote...
That's all it is is personal preferrence. As you can't switch between the Predator and the Carnifex mid-mission, the only criteria for choosing a weapon is "Do I prefer high rate of fire and low damage or low rate of fire and high damage?" "Do I prefer high damage and low accuracy or high accuracy and low damage?"

As you yourself pointed out, the weapons in ME2 are all fairly balanced across ammo pools. The Carnifex has less overall ammo than the Predator, but it makes up for it with increased damage per shot to the point where overall they're both basically equal. That means that ammo effectively becomes a non-issue when choosing a weapon, as neither weapon has advantage over the others in it's class. The only criteria for selecting them then, logically, becomes whichever weapon suits your personal preference.

There is no difference in accuracy between the Predator and the Carniflex, only rate of fire. In actual gameplay the Carniflex is fast enough that the Predator's faster RoF doesn't matter. But the Carniflex holds 18 rounds, the Predator 60. If ammo limit was eliminated, the Carniflex will have a clear advantage in almost every instance. It's not subjective, there are tests done with it.

All high-damage weapons have low ammo capacity for the sake of balance and forcing you use to other weapons, all of the popular mods are adding the Revy/Claymore/Widow to a class that don't have them with unlimited ammo precisely for this reason.

Modifié par Tony Gunslinger, 20 janvier 2011 - 07:30 .

[JKoopman]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

JKoopman wrote...
That's all it is is personal preferrence. As you can't switch between the Predator and the Carnifex mid-mission, the only criteria for choosing a weapon is "Do I prefer high rate of fire and low damage or low rate of fire and high damage?" "Do I prefer high damage and low accuracy or high accuracy and low damage?"

As you yourself pointed out, the weapons in ME2 are all fairly balanced across ammo pools. The Carnifex has less overall ammo than the Predator, but it makes up for it with increased damage per shot to the point where overall they're both basically equal. That means that ammo effectively becomes a non-issue when choosing a weapon, as neither weapon has advantage over the others in it's class. The only criteria for selecting them then, logically, becomes whichever weapon suits your personal preference.

There is no difference in accuracy between the Predator and the Carniflex, only rate of fire. In actual gameplay the Carniflex is fast enough that the Predator's faster RoF doesn't matter. But the Carniflex holds 18 rounds, the Predator 60. If ammo limit was eliminated, the Carniflex will have a clear advantage in almost every instance. It's not subjective, there are tests done with it.

All high-damage weapons have low ammo capacity for the sake of balance and forcing you use to other weapons, all of the popular mods are adding the Revy/Claymore/Widow to a class that don't have them with unlimited ammo precisely for this reason.

Well, my response to that would be that BioWare need only balance the weapons differently in an unlimited ammo situation. High Damage, Low Rate of Fire = Medium Damage, Medium Rate of Fire = Low Damage, High Rate of Fire. All equal, all balanced; without ammo even being a factor. Therefor, limited ammo is not required in order to balance multiple weapons of the same type.

Also, people who spend time making videos showing which guns can deal 6 more points of damage in 0.3 seconds less time in a single-player game take their meta-gaming to an entirely unhealthy level.

Zurcior wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

Zurcior
wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

It's a retcon insofar as we're told that thermal clips as a technology were taken from the Geth during the events of ME1 yet we acquire several Geth weapons during the course of the game and all of them use the standard cooldown mechanic.

 What? The Geth didn't have that tech in ME1. They made the thermal clip system after reviewing their battle logs during the events of ME1. And they made the heatsinks afterwards. No retcon.

Interesting. I could've sworn that the codex entry for thermal clips stated that the Alliance adopted them from the Geth after studying their battle logs from engagements with Geth forces. But going back into the codex now, it makes no mention of this. Perhaps BioWare patched the retcon hole in one of their prior updates? Anybody have any info on that?

Very well. Statement withdrawn.

Themal clips never had their own codex entry. That info is located elsewhere. So no, it wasn't removed because it never existed.

The codex entry referencing thermal clips is found under Small Arms. I didn't mean to give the impression that thermal clips had their own specific codex entry.

Modifié par JKoopman, 20 janvier 2011 - 07:49 .

[Praetor Knight]

JKoopman wrote...

Zurcior wrote...

What? The Geth didn't have that tech in ME1. They made the thermal clip system after reviewing their battle logs during the events of ME1. And they made the heatsinks afterwards. No retcon.

Interesting. I could've sworn that the codex entry for thermal clips stated that the Alliance adopted them from the Geth after studying their battle logs from engagements with Geth forces. But going back into the codex now, it makes no mention of this. Perhaps BioWare patched the retcon hole in one of their prior updates? Anybody have any info on that?

I found the Codex entry: http://masseffect.wi...ps#Small_Arms_2

I think the issue is not knowing exactly when Thermal Clips were adopted by the Geth and then the armies that fought the Geth.

I'd say the confusion is from how vague the entry is, I know I've been confused with many details of the ME universe also, including Thermal Clips.

[Lumikki]

JKoopman wrote...

Well, my response to that would be that BioWare need only balance the weapons differently in an unlimited ammo situation. High Damage, Low Rate of Fire = Medium Damage, Medium Rate of Fire = Low Damage, High Rate of Fire. All equal, all balanced; without ammo even being a factor. Therefor, limited ammo is not required in order to balance multiple weapons of the same type.

High damage + Low rate of fire.
Low damage + High rate of fire.

Now if you Widow type of single shot sniper rifle, what can kill with one shot. How what's that weapons fire rate?

I assume it's gonna be very low fire rate to balanced agaist other weapons. How ever, if you make so that fire rate can be medium, but you run out of ammos, it's also balanced. This allow high damage with medium fire rate, because it's just burst damage, not continued damage. Do you see how amount of "ammos" as ability shoot can also affect the balance and allow different kind of weapons. We have continues fire rate weapons like submachine gun, but could have high damage burst weapons, like sniper rifle or shotgun.

Oh what did "ammo" limit just do? It created burst damage in single shot weapons.

Now you could use overheat to create same affect, but here is the kick..

But with overheat you can get the burst damage back without ever leaving the safety of cover position. That's not gonna happen with "clips", because you need to take risk to run to get the clips. Meaning if there is still enemies left, you need to use other weapons or take the risk. With unlimited ammo, you are safe and can use same weapon forever.

Lets use example. You are in some cover postion and there is 30 enemies very far away. Now you can shoot them with sniper rifle, but limited ammo you would only kill 10 of them. Then you had to change weapon or run closer to get more ammos. Now with unlimited ammo, you never had to move from that cover position, because you can just wait for overheat end and then shoot again 10 of those enemies. My point is that  overheat and limited ammo's are NOT same, it actually can affect the combat tactics.

Modifié par Lumikki, 20 janvier 2011 - 08:09 .

[JKoopman]

Lumikki wrote...

[snip]

But with overheat you can get the burst damage back without ever leaving the safety of cover position. That's not gonna happen with "clips", because you need to take risk to run to get the clips. Meaning if there is still enemies left, you need to use other weapons or take the risk. With unlimited ammo, you are safe and can use same weapon forever.

Lets use example. You are in some cover postion and there is 30 enemies very far away. Now you can shoot them with sniper rifle, but limited ammo you would only kill 10 of them. Then you had to change weapon or run closer to get more ammos. Now with unlimited ammo, you never had to move from that cover position, because you can just wait for overheat end and then shoot again 10 of those enemies. My point is that  overheat and limited ammo's are NOT same, it actually can affect the combat tactics.

I guess what that boils down to is simply a fundamental disagreement over whether being able to sit back in a sniper position picking off 30 enemies as they try to advance is a problem in need of correcting or simply a valid playstyle.

As well, I must point out that at no instance in the game are you ever facing 30 enemies in a single engagement without a chance to resupply your thermal clips. As others have pointed out, effectively unlimited ammo is no different from actual unlimited ammo.

Modifié par JKoopman, 20 janvier 2011 - 08:26 .

[james1976]

Tsiper29 wrote...

 I prefer the over heating from Mass Effect 1 also.  I still really hate the heat clips.  I miss all the weapons mods from Mass Effect 1 also!:alien:

This!  I hate looking for thermal clips and miss customizing my weapons.  Ammo powers are a poor replacement and a pathetic excuse for skills.  The powers fill the sorely lacking skills available to you in ME2 and replace ammo mods at the same time.  Making the game dumbed down in my opinion.

[Dazaster Dellus]

expanding panic wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

Dazaster Dellus wrote...

Also, how is it that all of a sudden in the two years that Shepard was dead the entire galaxy(even he terminus systems) has "upgraded" every single weapon to the new format. Also, in another mysterious galactic marvel all of the older weapons that everyone in the galaxy used before have now disappeared completely. That is one very hard pill to swallow.

The logical answer to that is that they didn't. Convincing Shepard that the entire galaxy adopted a new weapon system in the 2 years he was out was simply a practical joke; the galactic equivalent of writing PENIS on his face while he was asleep. Everyone else is still using the old-style weapons, as attested by the fact that no one else but Shepard ever runs out of thermal clips in their weapons. Shepard is the only person who's using thermal clip weaponry, and everyone else is secretly laughing at him for it.

Or.... And this is just my theory I could be wrong. But it's just a video game. The reason the whole galaxy has moved onto the new weapon system in a mere 2 year is because that is what the designers of the game decided on.  Just a thought I could be wrong. 

Your acting like it's real life. And yea the whole realism argument will pop up and all that I get that and I'm one for realism too. If it's to far out there I won't play the game. However with that said I am favor the thermal clips so I'm happy with the Me2 system.

Genius! How long did it take you to think of that?!

[Lumikki]

JKoopman wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

[snip]

But with overheat you can get the burst damage back without ever leaving the safety of cover position. That's not gonna happen with "clips", because you need to take risk to run to get the clips. Meaning if there is still enemies left, you need to use other weapons or take the risk. With unlimited ammo, you are safe and can use same weapon forever.

Lets use example. You are in some cover postion and there is 30 enemies very far away. Now you can shoot them with sniper rifle, but limited ammo you would only kill 10 of them. Then you had to change weapon or run closer to get more ammos. Now with unlimited ammo, you never had to move from that cover position, because you can just wait for overheat end and then shoot again 10 of those enemies. My point is that  overheat and limited ammo's are NOT same, it actually can affect the combat tactics.

I guess what that boils down to is simply a fundamental disagreement over whether being able to sit back in a sniper position picking off 30 enemies as they try to advance is a problem in need of correcting or simply a valid playstyle.

Also, I must point out that at no instance in the game are you ever facing 30 enemies in a single engagement without a chance to resupply your thermal clips. As others have pointed out, effectively unlimited ammo is no different from actual unlimited ammo.

Yes, most the time you can resupply you termal clips, but you allways have to consider do you have enough ammos. Meaning you as player have to take care that situation, those termal clips doesn't just pop in you weapons, you need consider you collecting between combat or even while in combat. Also there is "small" possibility that you can't get enough termal clips, for some reason, example someone isn't that good in collecting them. That possibility doesn't even exist in overheat system. Meaning overheat system is more repeating it self in combat. You can allways repeat same actions untill it's solved in overheat combat, that doesn't work that well in termal clip combat. That's because termal clips can sometimes force you situation where you can't do same actions forever. How often it happens is depending alot of players own abilities manage termal clips.

[JKoopman]

Lumikki wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

[snip]

But with overheat you can get the burst damage back without ever leaving the safety of cover position. That's not gonna happen with "clips", because you need to take risk to run to get the clips. Meaning if there is still enemies left, you need to use other weapons or take the risk. With unlimited ammo, you are safe and can use same weapon forever.

Lets use example. You are in some cover postion and there is 30 enemies very far away. Now you can shoot them with sniper rifle, but limited ammo you would only kill 10 of them. Then you had to change weapon or run closer to get more ammos. Now with unlimited ammo, you never had to move from that cover position, because you can just wait for overheat end and then shoot again 10 of those enemies. My point is that  overheat and limited ammo's are NOT same, it actually can affect the combat tactics.

I guess what that boils down to is simply a fundamental disagreement over whether being able to sit back in a sniper position picking off 30 enemies as they try to advance is a problem in need of correcting or simply a valid playstyle.

Also, I must point out that at no instance in the game are you ever facing 30 enemies in a single engagement without a chance to resupply your thermal clips. As others have pointed out, effectively unlimited ammo is no different from actual unlimited ammo.

Yes, most the time you can resupply you termal clips, but you allways have to consider do you have enough ammos. Meaning you as player have to take care that situation, those termal clips doesn't just pop in you weapons, you need consider you collecting between combat or even while in combat. Also there is "small" possibility that you can't get enough termal clips, for some reason, example someone isn't that good in collecting them. That possibility doesn't even exist in overheat system. Meaning overheat system is more repeating it self in combat. You can allways repeat same actions untill it's solved in overheat combat, that doesn't work that well in termal clip combat. That's because termal clips can sometimes force you situation where you can't do same actions forever. How often it happens is depending alot of players own abilities manage termal clips.

Well then, perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but it sounds like the only difference you're describing is that one system forces you to spend time between each battle scavenging for clips while the other does not. To which I must ask, is that really benefiting gameplay?

Also, I'm still not following how limited ammo is a necessitating balance factor. How is...

[POP][POP][POP]**[POP][POP][POP]**[POP][POP][POP] = 3 enemies dead

any different from...

[POW]***[KA-CHUNK]**[POW]***[KA-CHUNK]**[POW] = 3 enemies dead

Modifié par JKoopman, 20 janvier 2011 - 08:28 .

[Lumikki]

JKoopman wrote...

Well then, perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but it sounds like the only difference you're describing is that one system forces you to spend time between each battle scavenging for clips while the other does not. To which I must ask, is that really benefiting gameplay?

Because it force you to move from safe cover positions. Overheat doesn't, it allows you be in safe cover forever, because nothing force you out of it.

Also, I'm still not following how limited ammo is a necessitating balance factor. How is...

[POP][POP][POP]**[POP][POP][POP]**[POP][POP][POP] = 3 enemies dead

any different from...

[POW]***[KA-CHUNK]**[POW]***[KA-CHUNK]**[POW] = 3 enemies dead

Because it's not that way.

[POP][POP][POP]**[POP][POP][POP]**[POP][POP][POP] = 3 enemies dead (overheat)
[POP][POP][POP]**[POP][POP][POP]**[POP][POP][POP] = 3 enemies dead (overheat)
[POP][POP][POP]**[POP][POP][POP]**[POP][POP][POP] = 3 enemies dead (overheat)
[POP][POP][POP]**[POP][POP][POP]**[POP][POP][POP] = 3 enemies dead (overheat)
ALL DEAD now MOVE

[POP][POP][POP]*[POP][POP][POP]*[POP][POP][POP] [MOVE]= 3 enemies dead (termal clip)
[POP][POP][POP]*[POP][POP][POP]*[POP][POP][POP] [MOVE]= 3 enemies dead (termal clip)
[POP][POP][POP]*[POP][POP][POP]*[POP][POP][POP] [MOVE]= 3 enemies dead (termal clip)
[POP][POP][POP]*[POP][POP][POP]*[POP][POP][POP] [MOVE]= 3 enemies dead (termal clip)
ALL DEAD

Balance isn't just between fast fire rate vs low fire rate. But also runing out of ammos, force you to move what is also time out, what allows higher fire rate than not need to move. Of cause the example if little over done, but you get the meaning?

Modifié par Lumikki, 20 janvier 2011 - 08:40 .

[james1976]

My weapons rarely overheated in ME1. If you had good mods, a good weapon, and decent aim you were fine. My last time through with an Infiltrator my sniper rifle overheated once or twice but my pistol never did. On my first time through the game my soldier's assault rifle rarely overheated. If it did, it was because I wasn't paying enough attention to it.