61 réponses à ce sujet

[sevalaricgirl]

I never save the anvil. Caridin's plea gets me every time. I've never played a bad pc so I can't see enslaving souls.

[LobselVith8]

IanPolaris wrote...

I don't think she does anymore.  Remember that Branka is known (by DAA) as the nut who fed her house to the darkspawn (per Sigrun), so I can't imagine that Branka has or can get Dwarven help.  For most things, Golems will do just fine, but golems need to be controlled and it's hard to do that when you are being force-fed molten lyrium and metal.

-Polaris

That was Sigrun who said that, and she's casteless - she cuts through the bull and paints Branka exactly as she is. The smart thing to do would be to avoid Branka, but I can see plenty of dwarves seeing an opportunity to work with the Paragon who found Caridin's Anvil as a once in a lifetime opportunity to elevate their station and family. Most people in Orzammar overlooked the sheer insanity of heading into the Deep Roads because Branka was a Paragon - a living ancestor. I can see some misguided dwarves heading to the fortress to work for her since there doesn't seem to be an issue with volunteers for the golems.

[wizardryforever]

Well I would keep the Anvil if I could guarantee the following:

Only volunteers are used
Volunteers get full disclosure
Golems are to be used only against the darkspawn

Since I can't guarantee any of that, I usually destroy it.  The Anvil has the potential to destroy dwarven society if another civil war breaks out and the golems become involved.  Golems become the equivalent of WMDs in dwarven society, and they end up destroying each other faster than they could normally.  This is not a good thing when the dwarven race and culture is already greatly declining.  Of course, there's no certainty that that is what woulde happen, but it is definitely plausible, and I would say probable as well.

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Essentially, do you believe the ends justify the means? I don't, my characters don't and hence I would never preserve the Anvil.

So I take it you side with Harrowmont for king as well?

Harrowmont's a bigoted fool who leads Orzammar to despair and is willing to murder the people of Dust Town if he gains golems from Branka, and Branka is completely insane and hears voices. I don't think it's an issue of the ends justifying the means. If Branka was a sane person who genuinely wanted to save Orzammar from the darkspawn threat, then the game would be offering the Warden a choice that focused on the ends justifying the means. However, Branka is mentally unstable, and that's abundantly clear when she's speaking to the Warden. Even Oghren acknowledges this when she's ranting about sparing the Anvil in the Caridin confrontation. Her entire plan to use darkspawn to get through Caridin's traps is utterly ridiculous, and she hears voices in her heard. Since there's no sane person capable of handling the Anvil, the logical choice is to destroy it.

Harrowmont thought that was a necessary and good course of action because he views the castleless as scum. He thought that evil deed was in fact a justified and good deed most likely. He does however still seem to uphold the view of the do not justify the means I mean he hasn't seemingly done little evil for greater good.

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Assuming you stabilize Orzammar with a strong King (and Bhelen certainly is that), then you know that Branka can't live forever.  Eventually she is going to die, and that will leave the Anvil there waiting for the Dwarves after an unpleasent couple of decades (given how nutty she is, I don't think she lasts much longer than that!)

Unless Branka has the means of pulling a Caridin and becoming a golem herself.

Cant Golems not use the anvil to make golems or something? Caridin said something along these lines... before using the anvil to make me a crown which caused me to have my doubts lol

[Joy Divison]

As others have pointed out it, Branka is more of a problem than the anvil.



As mage I had qualms about preserving it, but with the obligation to defeat the blight I think it would be hard for a GW to destroy it wo/ metagaming knowledge.

[Avilia]

sevalaricgirl wrote...

I never save the anvil. Caridin's plea gets me every time. I've never played a bad pc so I can't see enslaving souls.

Ditto.  I never preserve it.  Even without metagaming, not  only is Branka batsh*t crazy, they'd feed the castless to it in a heartbeat.

I make Bhelen king btw - I don't think that's an ends/means decision for my canon.  She's a DC ;-)

Her boon was more help from the humans to fight the Darkspawn.  Not that it seems to matter in the overall scheme of things lore wise.

Be interesting to see where, if anywhere, they take this in DA2.

[Elhanan]

I saved it once for one of my Evil wardens (for the Achievement). But supporting Branka is the most vile choice in the game for me.

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Cant Golems not use the anvil to make golems or something? Caridin said something along these lines... before using the anvil to make me a crown which caused me to have my doubts lol

Technically, he crafted the Crown without using the Anvil. He mentions that golems cannot touch it, which is why he has been unable to destroy it for all these centuries. The difference with Branka is that she knows how to use the Anvil, so she might know who to avoid the failsafe that was built into the Caridin golems. Branka might have dwarven assistants who could follow her instructions because she's a Paragon, meaning that the whole episode of her feeding her entire House to the darkspawn would be overlooked because of her station among the dwarven populace. Despite her obvious insanity when the Warden is speaking to her, I can imagine that there would be dwarven smiths who would jump at the chance to work with the Paragon who re-discovered Caridin's Anvil. It may not happen lore-wise (or even be mentioned ever again in the DA universe) but the possibility of Branka's insanity causing as much destruction as the darkspawn the golems are supposed to defend against stops me from ever siding with her.

[Bigdoser]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If I use metagaming and know for sure that golems will not be necessary, I would not preserve the anvil. But as it stands, my canon choice is to preserve it (and the golems are well worth it), though I naturally don't trust Branka (I do trust her to test her golems on the darkspawn however).

But even with metagamig, destroying the anvil is such a waste. I wish we had the option to kill Branka, but leave the anvil. Destroying it is a waste and I absolutely hate waste.

Indee I would of liked the option to kill branka and keep the anvil  I kept it in a few playtroughs but branka is too unstable and unpredictible.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Bigdoser wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If I use metagaming and know for sure that golems will not be necessary, I would not preserve the anvil. But as it stands, my canon choice is to preserve it (and the golems are well worth it), though I naturally don't trust Branka (I do trust her to test her golems on the darkspawn however).

But even with metagamig, destroying the anvil is such a waste. I wish we had the option to kill Branka, but leave the anvil. Destroying it is a waste and I absolutely hate waste.

Indee I would of liked the option to kill branka and keep the anvil  I kept it in a few playtroughs but branka is too unstable and unpredictible.

Same here. Both my canon's destroy it, but the last three saved it. My canon's would have saved it had it not been for Branka.

[Augustei]

Elhanan wrote...

I saved it once for one of my Evil wardens (for the Achievement). But supporting Branka is the most vile choice in the game for me.

How? She only takes volunteers at that start (Prior to the Epilogue and without Metagaming) it seems like a good choice, it will help put a swift end to the blight for the sacrifice of few to save the many.. Which is the same concept as the Grey wardens. Makes sense a Grey Warden would preserve it

[Cutlass Jack]

XxDeonxX wrote...

How? She only takes volunteers at that start (Prior to the Epilogue and without Metagaming) it seems like a good choice, it will help put a swift end to the blight for the sacrifice of few to save the many.. Which is the same concept as the Grey wardens. Makes sense a Grey Warden would preserve it

Supporting Branka is vile because of what she does to her followers. What she did to Hespith and the others was unforgivable. Branka has a very interesting interpretation of 'volunteer' before she ever gets the anvil. If she'd do that to them, one could only imagine what she'd do with the anvil.

[Augustei]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

How? She only takes volunteers at that start (Prior to the Epilogue and without Metagaming) it seems like a good choice, it will help put a swift end to the blight for the sacrifice of few to save the many.. Which is the same concept as the Grey wardens. Makes sense a Grey Warden would preserve it

Supporting Branka is vile because of what she does to her followers. What she did to Hespith and the others was unforgivable. Branka has a very interesting interpretation of 'volunteer' before she ever gets the anvil. If she'd do that to them, one could only imagine what she'd do with the anvil.

Yeah but the Morality of the person should effect the act. I mean the whole concept of the Grey Wardens is for the Few to Sacrifice themselves for the Many, Even with some against their will by being conscripted. It can be seem the same way with the Anvil of the Void. Just because she is an insane evil person, doesn't mean helping her is an Insane Evil act.

[Cutlass Jack]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Yeah but the Morality of the person should effect the act. I mean the whole concept of the Grey Wardens is for the Few to Sacrifice themselves for the Many, Even with some against their will by being conscripted. It can be seem the same way with the Anvil of the Void. Just because she is an insane evil person, doesn't mean helping her is an Insane Evil act.

Branka fed her people to the darkspawn to create Broodmothers to make more darkspawn. The 'whole concept' of the Grey Wardens is actually to stop the Darkspawn. Not make more.

[Augustei]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Yeah but the Morality of the person should effect the act. I mean the whole concept of the Grey Wardens is for the Few to Sacrifice themselves for the Many, Even with some against their will by being conscripted. It can be seem the same way with the Anvil of the Void. Just because she is an insane evil person, doesn't mean helping her is an Insane Evil act.

Branka fed her people to the darkspawn to create Broodmothers to make more darkspawn. The 'whole concept' of the Grey Wardens is actually to stop the Darkspawn. Not make more.

Little Evil for Greater good, The darkspawn were necessary to get past Caradins traps to get to the Anvil as her house would not go through willingly. Branka is clearly insane but her interest is to reclaim the dwarvern empire and push back the darkspawn.

"Look around, is this what our empire should look like. The anvil will let us take back our glory" 

[Cutlass Jack]

No, pretty massive evil for no gain. You don't stop your enemy by making more of them. That's just stupid. Especially since they were of no help whatsoever getting her past the traps.



Even stupider would be to give this clearly insane person even more power to do insane things with.

[Augustei]

you mean making extremely strong soldiers to fight to reclaim orzamaar and help defeat the blight which she indeed does give to you?

[Cutlass Jack]

XxDeonxX wrote...

you mean making extremely strong soldiers to fight to reclaim orzamaar and help defeat the blight which she indeed does give to you?

She wasn't smart enough to get past the traps on her own (which honestly weren't that tricky). And she sacrificed all her people to do it. So she wasn't convincing me that she had what it took to figure out how to use the anvil. How many more people would she sacrifice failing on that too? And what would she do when she ran out of willing test subjects?

And you're willingly endorsing her behavior if you give her the anvil. Every atrocity she commits with it is due to you. So yes, its a pretty vile choice to go with her. Even if it is for the 'greater good.'

[Face of Evil]

The problem with the Anvil is that it creates more problems than it solves. Whether it's Bhelen or Branka or someone else in control of it, the Anvil will be abused. It's a tool for creating a slave race. Even if the darkspawn are no longer a problem, just think of how easy it is to make over your enemies and the unwanted people of society into golems.

And the Anvil itself wants to be used, if what Branka itself said is any indication; it will always push whoever possesses it to use it.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 24 janvier 2011 - 05:51 .

[Louis_Cypher]

There's certainly an argument for saving it, for use with volunteers (especially ill, old, or crippled volunteers). Even if it's abused, you could argue that the ends justifies the means in fighting the darkspawn.



But Branka is just too unstable. Forget trusting Branka not to abuse the anvil, I don't even trust her to secure the aid of the dwarves for me. She's already arguably made the situation worse by providing broodmothers to the darkspawn; she clearly cares more about her idea of a return to dwarven glory than any reasonable set of ideals. And I certainly don't trust her to keep whatever promise she might make if I help her get the anvil. For all I know, she might seal the gates and use the Blight to push into the Deep Roads.



If I could just kill her and take the Anvil back, I might do it, but I need the support of a Paragon to unite the dwarves against the blight. Maybe Branka will give me what I need, or maybe simply bringing her bones and the Anvil would be enough. But siding with Caridin is a safer choice.

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

I saved it once for one of my Evil wardens (for the Achievement). But supporting Branka is the most vile choice in the game for me.

How? She only takes volunteers at that start (Prior to the Epilogue and without Metagaming) it seems like a good choice, it will help put a swift end to the blight for the sacrifice of few to save the many.. Which is the same concept as the Grey wardens. Makes sense a Grey Warden would preserve it

Oghren actually makes this very point regarding the Anvil - many would volunteer simply to keep the darkspawn from destroying Orzammar. One single golemn is worth at least ten dwarven warriors. They could make all of the difference in the struggle against the darkspawn, so it is tempting, but Branka's also written as being completely insane. My issue with it was mainly that - is she mentally stable enough for the task ahead of her? And while I fully agree that a Warden concerned with stopping the darkspawn by any means necessary would preserve it, it's always difficult to deal with the fact that it's Branka who is being left in charge of this task.

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

I saved it once for one of my Evil wardens (for the Achievement). But supporting Branka is the most vile choice in the game for me.

How? She only takes volunteers at that start (Prior to the Epilogue and without Metagaming) it seems like a good choice, it will help put a swift end to the blight for the sacrifice of few to save the many.. Which is the same concept as the Grey wardens. Makes sense a Grey Warden would preserve it

Oghren actually makes this very point regarding the Anvil - many would volunteer simply to keep the darkspawn from destroying Orzammar. One single golemn is worth at least ten dwarven warriors. They could make all of the difference in the struggle against the darkspawn, so it is tempting, but Branka's also written as being completely insane. My issue with it was mainly that - is she mentally stable enough for the task ahead of her? And while I fully agree that a Warden concerned with stopping the darkspawn by any means necessary would preserve it, it's always difficult to deal with the fact that it's Branka who is being left in charge of this task.

Yeah but she will no doubt die down there in a short time.. She has no supplies, no food, no water, shes insane. Even if she does live a while it is an inevitability she will die and then some sane person can take her place at the anvil

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Yeah but she will no doubt die down there in a short time.. She has no supplies, no food, no water, shes insane. Even if she does live a while it is an inevitability she will die and then some sane person can take her place at the anvil

Possibly. It may be best in the long run, I admit. I know someone argued for the use of golems to save Orzammar from extinction a while back:

Koyasha wrote...

Krigwin wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Expecting the surface nations to help reclaim the dwarven empire when there's no Blight when they have never, ever, ever done so before is futile
Even Alistair will not be able to head up a war nobody cares about and nobody wants to fight. When there's no Blight, Orzammar is on it's own, and thus the Anvil is needed.

Wrong. Ask for human military aid as your boon from Alistair and the Darkspawn will be driven back into the Dead Trenches. You've braved two Thaigs (Aeducan Thaig and Cadash Thaig) in the game, you know more than anyone else (possibly more than even any Grey Warden to come before you) what there is to face in the Deep Roads. It's not tough, the only reason the dwarves can't do it is because they lack the numbers.

The dwarves aided the humans in defeating this Blight even though their agreement was centuries-old and Orzammar had problems of their own. They honored their oath and Ferelden would have no problem returning the favor, especially as you have so many rallied armies ready to go after the siege of Denerim. Spread the news that the Darkspawn do in fact still exist, and possible more Blights are to come, and not only will the Grey Wardens, themselves numbering in the thousands, come rushing to the aid of the dwarves, but I can't imagine the other human nations not doing the same. Even the Qunari, after Sten brings back information of what exactly a Blight is and what the Darkspawn are capable of.

First off, I've got to start by reminding everyone that the dwarven kingdoms and the deep roads extend the entire length and breadth of the continent.  The distance to the dead trenches is miniscule compared to the entirety of Thedas, and retaking that tiny portion of the deep roads is insignificant as far as the whole of the continent goes.  It is like saying that if the entirety of the United States was overrun by enemy forces, with the exception of Los Angeles (Kal Sharok) and New York City (Orzammar), that securing the vast distance between New York and Trenton, New Jersey (Bownammar), was "much" of the lost territory.  Even if we went as far as Philadelphia, I don't think it would be that significant.

Furthermore, you are arguing from a position of utter fantasy that exists only in your imagination, it seems.  Do you believe the Grey Wardens, who send their people to Orzammar to die fighting darkspawn in the deep roads, are unaware that there are darkspawn in the deep roads?  Do you really think that after the last Blight was defeated, four hundred years ago, the surface nations simply did not know that there were more darkspawn in the deep roads?  Everyone knows damn well the deep roads are full of darkspawn.  And one of the early dialogue options as a mage sums up the attitude on that entirely: "Darkspawn are a dwarven problem."  Do you really believe the surface nations could be convinced to commit themselves to a decades or possibly even centuries-long war effort in order to secure the entirety of the deep roads and wipe out the darkspawn once and for all, when they do not feel threatened in the slightest?

Furthermore you behave as though the recent fight in Ferelden will spur the nations to action as though it presents the darkspawn as a major threat, when in point of fact it does quite the opposite.  To quote Alistair, "No Grey Warden has ever defeated a blight without the army of a dozen nations at their back."  From what we understand, the last four Blights spanned much of the continent, and every nation in Thedas was threatened.  This time, the Blight was defeated with most nations barely even becoming aware of it.  If anything, this is an indication to other nations that darkspawn and blights are nowhere near as threatening as the legends made them seem, a problem easily dealt with if you don't also have a civil war going at the same time.  And certainly not a problem that requires committing massive military force over generations in order to root out of their nests for the sake of the dwarves.

But you bring up a good point about the battle of attrition. Why is it that the dwarves are so hopelessly outnumbered? It could be because of the Brood Mother method of reproduction, that is certainly true. But then again, the Darkspawn do not go to the surface except in the case of a Blight, so where would they be getting these female victims from? Their only source would be the dwarves, and unless they were plopping out Brood Mothers by the dozen, they wouldn't have enough to breed such a massive army to outnumber all of Orzammar.

Consider that the only Brood Mother you encounter in the game is the result of Branka leading her house deep into the Deep Roads, and then willingly abandoning them to the Darkspawn. Otherwise, the only dwarves that go into the Deep Roads are warriors, which are all male. Consider that, without an Archdemon to command them and form the powerful synaptic hive mind that guides a Blight, the Darkspawn war amongst each other endlessly, just like Orcs, or demons, or any other faction of mindless beasts from fantasy.

No, I believe the real reason the dwarves are so outnumbered is because of their caste system, which limits the size of their armies. Dissolving the castes and conscripting warriors to fight the Darkspawn, which is very similar to what Bhelen does, would be more than enough to not only defend Orzammar but also branch out and reclaim lost territory. It sounds bad at first, but then you remember the alternative is extinction. The dwarves were getting too fat and lazy relying on their golems to do all the work, that's why when the Anvil was lost they lost ground so quickly. Only the Legion of the Dead has any real idea of how to fight the Darkspawn, and you hear it yourself from Kardol - they are bound by tradition to follow the lead of Orzammar's King, and Orzammar's Kings have been content to... pretty much do nothing and have a generally defeatist attitude about the Darkspawn.

Darkspawn are known to raid the surface in ragtag bands.  This is clearly stated quite often in the early stages of the game.  Their reason for doing so is rather clear, considering their method of reproduction.  Dwarves are not their only source of females to make broodmothers with.  And dwarves do have female warriors, or did you miss, say, the story of Astyth the Grey, who fought for the right of females to be warriors, and wound up inspiring an entire order of Silent Sisters?

The second is your character, and you're either not even a dwarf, or you're casteless. Neither of you are fit to represent society, and with the Assembly in disarray and no King in sight, no one has the real authority to make a decision like this. And even if you disagree, you're not even handing over the Anvil to society - you're handing it over to Branka. And even if you still disagree with that, you're not seizing food from some greedy farmer or something, you're taking the Anvil from not just any Paragon, but the most important Paragon in all of dwarven history, who has made revolutionary contributions to society and was much more powerful in his day than Branka ever was, and in order to do so in fact you have to kill him.

Branka and Caridin are both Paragons, and therefore equal as far as dwarven society goes.  Caridin himself notes that he made many things in his time, but the one he was made a Paragon for and the only one that he is remembered for is the Anvil.  Which he now wants to destroy.  Indeed, if he's going to destroy the reason he was made a Paragon, shouldn't that sort of...I don't know...nullify his Paragon-hood?  Cause he was made a Paragon cause he invented the Anvil and gave the dwarves golems, not for any other reason.

But none of that really matters, because Grey Wardens do whatever is necessary to defeat the darkspawn, and the Anvil can help in that goal.

Wrong. The weapon has already been taken away, and has been for centuries. Indeed no one even believes it still exists at the time of the game, except for Branka. You make it sound as if Caridin is actively rooting for the dwarves to fail, when really he has been long forgotten and the dwarves have moved on without him.

Ok, he took away their only effective weapon, past tense.  Rest is still entirely applicable.  The dwarves moved on without him because they felt they had no choice.  Branka was the only one driven (crazy?) enough to go after the Anvil, realizing that without it, they were doomed in the long term.

If you were somehow able to keep the Anvil around, but ensure that is used only for good, only to create soldiers to fight the Darkspawn, then this would be a tough choice, because while it is still a tool of evil, you'd be serving the greater good. But there is no such option. You have to hand it over to Branka, a psychotic megalomaniac who has already proven she has no qualms with sending her own kind off to the slaughterhouse. Branka is obsessed, her own husband tells you she has become increasingly unstable and possibly insane, and at the time you meet her she is legally dead with no real power amongst the dwarves. Once she gets it she even starts kidnapping people to use on the Anvil!

And in order to do this, you have to kill Caridin - a hero, who only tried to help his people. You have to murder him (and Shale) in order to keep the Anvil. You're committing an act of evil, to save a tool of evil, in order to hand it over to someone who could be called evil. Yeah, I can totally see the moral ambiguity there alright.

But what is she obsessed with?  Defeating the darkspawn!  Therefore, any means necessary still applies.

And while Caridin tried to help his people, he also turned around and rescinded that help when he decided it wasn't being done exactly the way his delicate sensibilities wanted.

Moral ambiguity is irrelevant.  Is keeping the anvil "evil?"  It doesn't matter.  It only matters that it is an effective tool to construct weapons against the darkspawn.  No sacrifice is too great in order to accomplish that goal, including the eternal enslavement of countless tens or hundreds of thousands, or even more, to construct the golem force needed to achieve ultimate victory.

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Yeah but she will no doubt die down there in a short time.. She has no supplies, no food, no water, shes insane. Even if she does live a while it is an inevitability she will die and then some sane person can take her place at the anvil

Possibly. It may be best in the long run, I admit. I know someone argued for the use of golems to save Orzammar from extinction a while back:

Koyasha wrote...

Krigwin wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Expecting the surface nations to help reclaim the dwarven empire when there's no Blight when they have never, ever, ever done so before is futile
Even Alistair will not be able to head up a war nobody cares about and nobody wants to fight. When there's no Blight, Orzammar is on it's own, and thus the Anvil is needed.

Wrong. Ask for human military aid as your boon from Alistair and the Darkspawn will be driven back into the Dead Trenches. You've braved two Thaigs (Aeducan Thaig and Cadash Thaig) in the game, you know more than anyone else (possibly more than even any Grey Warden to come before you) what there is to face in the Deep Roads. It's not tough, the only reason the dwarves can't do it is because they lack the numbers.

The dwarves aided the humans in defeating this Blight even though their agreement was centuries-old and Orzammar had problems of their own. They honored their oath and Ferelden would have no problem returning the favor, especially as you have so many rallied armies ready to go after the siege of Denerim. Spread the news that the Darkspawn do in fact still exist, and possible more Blights are to come, and not only will the Grey Wardens, themselves numbering in the thousands, come rushing to the aid of the dwarves, but I can't imagine the other human nations not doing the same. Even the Qunari, after Sten brings back information of what exactly a Blight is and what the Darkspawn are capable of.

First off, I've got to start by reminding everyone that the dwarven kingdoms and the deep roads extend the entire length and breadth of the continent.  The distance to the dead trenches is miniscule compared to the entirety of Thedas, and retaking that tiny portion of the deep roads is insignificant as far as the whole of the continent goes.  It is like saying that if the entirety of the United States was overrun by enemy forces, with the exception of Los Angeles (Kal Sharok) and New York City (Orzammar), that securing the vast distance between New York and Trenton, New Jersey (Bownammar), was "much" of the lost territory.  Even if we went as far as Philadelphia, I don't think it would be that significant.

Furthermore, you are arguing from a position of utter fantasy that exists only in your imagination, it seems.  Do you believe the Grey Wardens, who send their people to Orzammar to die fighting darkspawn in the deep roads, are unaware that there are darkspawn in the deep roads?  Do you really think that after the last Blight was defeated, four hundred years ago, the surface nations simply did not know that there were more darkspawn in the deep roads?  Everyone knows damn well the deep roads are full of darkspawn.  And one of the early dialogue options as a mage sums up the attitude on that entirely: "Darkspawn are a dwarven problem."  Do you really believe the surface nations could be convinced to commit themselves to a decades or possibly even centuries-long war effort in order to secure the entirety of the deep roads and wipe out the darkspawn once and for all, when they do not feel threatened in the slightest?

Furthermore you behave as though the recent fight in Ferelden will spur the nations to action as though it presents the darkspawn as a major threat, when in point of fact it does quite the opposite.  To quote Alistair, "No Grey Warden has ever defeated a blight without the army of a dozen nations at their back."  From what we understand, the last four Blights spanned much of the continent, and every nation in Thedas was threatened.  This time, the Blight was defeated with most nations barely even becoming aware of it.  If anything, this is an indication to other nations that darkspawn and blights are nowhere near as threatening as the legends made them seem, a problem easily dealt with if you don't also have a civil war going at the same time.  And certainly not a problem that requires committing massive military force over generations in order to root out of their nests for the sake of the dwarves.

But you bring up a good point about the battle of attrition. Why is it that the dwarves are so hopelessly outnumbered? It could be because of the Brood Mother method of reproduction, that is certainly true. But then again, the Darkspawn do not go to the surface except in the case of a Blight, so where would they be getting these female victims from? Their only source would be the dwarves, and unless they were plopping out Brood Mothers by the dozen, they wouldn't have enough to breed such a massive army to outnumber all of Orzammar.

Consider that the only Brood Mother you encounter in the game is the result of Branka leading her house deep into the Deep Roads, and then willingly abandoning them to the Darkspawn. Otherwise, the only dwarves that go into the Deep Roads are warriors, which are all male. Consider that, without an Archdemon to command them and form the powerful synaptic hive mind that guides a Blight, the Darkspawn war amongst each other endlessly, just like Orcs, or demons, or any other faction of mindless beasts from fantasy.

No, I believe the real reason the dwarves are so outnumbered is because of their caste system, which limits the size of their armies. Dissolving the castes and conscripting warriors to fight the Darkspawn, which is very similar to what Bhelen does, would be more than enough to not only defend Orzammar but also branch out and reclaim lost territory. It sounds bad at first, but then you remember the alternative is extinction. The dwarves were getting too fat and lazy relying on their golems to do all the work, that's why when the Anvil was lost they lost ground so quickly. Only the Legion of the Dead has any real idea of how to fight the Darkspawn, and you hear it yourself from Kardol - they are bound by tradition to follow the lead of Orzammar's King, and Orzammar's Kings have been content to... pretty much do nothing and have a generally defeatist attitude about the Darkspawn.

Darkspawn are known to raid the surface in ragtag bands.  This is clearly stated quite often in the early stages of the game.  Their reason for doing so is rather clear, considering their method of reproduction.  Dwarves are not their only source of females to make broodmothers with.  And dwarves do have female warriors, or did you miss, say, the story of Astyth the Grey, who fought for the right of females to be warriors, and wound up inspiring an entire order of Silent Sisters?

The second is your character, and you're either not even a dwarf, or you're casteless. Neither of you are fit to represent society, and with the Assembly in disarray and no King in sight, no one has the real authority to make a decision like this. And even if you disagree, you're not even handing over the Anvil to society - you're handing it over to Branka. And even if you still disagree with that, you're not seizing food from some greedy farmer or something, you're taking the Anvil from not just any Paragon, but the most important Paragon in all of dwarven history, who has made revolutionary contributions to society and was much more powerful in his day than Branka ever was, and in order to do so in fact you have to kill him.

Branka and Caridin are both Paragons, and therefore equal as far as dwarven society goes.  Caridin himself notes that he made many things in his time, but the one he was made a Paragon for and the only one that he is remembered for is the Anvil.  Which he now wants to destroy.  Indeed, if he's going to destroy the reason he was made a Paragon, shouldn't that sort of...I don't know...nullify his Paragon-hood?  Cause he was made a Paragon cause he invented the Anvil and gave the dwarves golems, not for any other reason.

But none of that really matters, because Grey Wardens do whatever is necessary to defeat the darkspawn, and the Anvil can help in that goal.

Wrong. The weapon has already been taken away, and has been for centuries. Indeed no one even believes it still exists at the time of the game, except for Branka. You make it sound as if Caridin is actively rooting for the dwarves to fail, when really he has been long forgotten and the dwarves have moved on without him.

Ok, he took away their only effective weapon, past tense.  Rest is still entirely applicable.  The dwarves moved on without him because they felt they had no choice.  Branka was the only one driven (crazy?) enough to go after the Anvil, realizing that without it, they were doomed in the long term.

If you were somehow able to keep the Anvil around, but ensure that is used only for good, only to create soldiers to fight the Darkspawn, then this would be a tough choice, because while it is still a tool of evil, you'd be serving the greater good. But there is no such option. You have to hand it over to Branka, a psychotic megalomaniac who has already proven she has no qualms with sending her own kind off to the slaughterhouse. Branka is obsessed, her own husband tells you she has become increasingly unstable and possibly insane, and at the time you meet her she is legally dead with no real power amongst the dwarves. Once she gets it she even starts kidnapping people to use on the Anvil!

And in order to do this, you have to kill Caridin - a hero, who only tried to help his people. You have to murder him (and Shale) in order to keep the Anvil. You're committing an act of evil, to save a tool of evil, in order to hand it over to someone who could be called evil. Yeah, I can totally see the moral ambiguity there alright.

But what is she obsessed with?  Defeating the darkspawn!  Therefore, any means necessary still applies.

And while Caridin tried to help his people, he also turned around and rescinded that help when he decided it wasn't being done exactly the way his delicate sensibilities wanted.

Moral ambiguity is irrelevant.  Is keeping the anvil "evil?"  It doesn't matter.  It only matters that it is an effective tool to construct weapons against the darkspawn.  No sacrifice is too great in order to accomplish that goal, including the eternal enslavement of countless tens or hundreds of thousands, or even more, to construct the golem force needed to achieve ultimate victory.

Hmm damn, I cant decide what I should do for my next and final playthrough =|