61 réponses à ce sujet

[Warrior61]

Im not certain if the 'feeding castless to the anvil' would happen if Bhelen was made king. He does give them more rights, they would likely be given a choice to become a golem or not. Branka is crazy, but her obsession with the anvil likely means she wont do anything that could make her lose it (i.e., acting against the king). Except in Harrowmonts case. Because he is so horribly weak.

[LobselVith8]

Warrior61 wrote...

Im not certain if the 'feeding castless to the anvil' would happen if Bhelen was made king. He does give them more rights, they would likely be given a choice to become a golem or not. Branka is crazy, but her obsession with the anvil likely means she wont do anything that could make her lose it (i.e., acting against the king). Except in Harrowmonts case. Because he is so horribly weak.

Bhelen has no issue using casteless to fight against the darkspawn, so I'd imagine it's the warrior caste, the casteless fighters, and golems being utilized to retake the lost thaigs in the Deep Roads and fight against the darkspawn armies, as well as mages if Dagna's research leads to an independent Circle of Magi.

[Cutlass Jack]

Warrior61 wrote...

Im not certain if the 'feeding castless to the anvil' would happen if Bhelen was made king. He does give them more rights, they would likely be given a choice to become a golem or not. Branka is crazy, but her obsession with the anvil likely means she wont do anything that could make her lose it (i.e., acting against the king). Except in Harrowmonts case. Because he is so horribly weak.

Except thats exactly what does happen with Bhelen. Branka does go against him and it causes him to lose access to the Anvil. Before that, he does feed the unwilling to the anvil.

[LobselVith8]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Warrior61 wrote...

Im not certain if the 'feeding castless to the anvil' would happen if Bhelen was made king. He does give them more rights, they would likely be given a choice to become a golem or not. Branka is crazy, but her obsession with the anvil likely means she wont do anything that could make her lose it (i.e., acting against the king). Except in Harrowmonts case. Because he is so horribly weak.

Except thats exactly what does happen with Bhelen. Branka does go against him and it causes him to lose access to the Anvil. Before that, he does feed the unwilling to the anvil.

You're confusing the Harrowmont ending (where she abducts surfacers) with the Bhelen ending (where he isolates her in her fortress because she refuses to make golems solely for him).

[Cutlass Jack]

LobselVith8 wrote...

You're confusing the Harrowmont ending (where she abducts surfacers) with the Bhelen ending (where he isolates her in her fortress because she refuses to make golems solely for him).

Not at all. Branka clearly goes against Bhelen's wishes causing them to war with each other (which is counter to what I quoted). And Bhelen's ending very specifically says 'willing or not' in relation to putting subjects to the anvil.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Koyasha wrote...

First off, I've got to start by reminding everyone that the dwarven kingdoms and the deep roads extend the entire length and breadth of the continent.  The distance to the dead trenches is miniscule compared to the entirety of Thedas, and retaking that tiny portion of the deep roads is insignificant as far as the whole of the continent goes.  It is like saying that if the entirety of the United States was overrun by enemy forces, with the exception of Los Angeles (Kal Sharok) and New York City (Orzammar), that securing the vast distance between New York and Trenton, New Jersey (Bownammar), was "much" of the lost territory.  Even if we went as far as Philadelphia, I don't think it would be that significant. [/quote]

[quote]Koyasha wrote...

And one of the early dialogue options as a mage sums up the attitude on that entirely: "Darkspawn are a dwarven problem."  [/quote]

[quote]Koyasha wrote...



[quote]Wrong. The weapon has already been taken away, and has been for centuries. Indeed no one even believes it still exists at the time of the game, except for Branka. You make it sound as if Caridin is actively rooting for the dwarves to fail, when really he has been long forgotten and the dwarves have moved on without him.[/quote]
Ok, he took away their only effective weapon, past tense.  Rest is still entirely applicable.  The dwarves moved on without him because they felt they had no choice.  Branka was the only one driven (crazy?) enough to go after the Anvil, realizing that without it, they were doomed in the long term. [/quote]

[quote]Koyasha wrote...

But what is she obsessed with?  Defeating the darkspawn!  Therefore, any means necessary still applies.

And while Caridin tried to help his people, he also turned around and rescinded that help when he decided it wasn't being done exactly the way his delicate sensibilities wanted.

Moral ambiguity is irrelevant.  Is keeping the anvil "evil?"  It doesn't matter.  It only matters that it is an effective tool to construct weapons against the darkspawn.  No sacrifice is too great in order to accomplish that goal, including the eternal enslavement of countless tens or hundreds of thousands, or even more, to construct the golem force needed to achieve ultimate victory. [/quote]


[quote] Elhanan wrote...

I saved it once for one of my Evil wardens (for the Achievement). But supporting Branka is the most vile choice in the game for me. [/quote]
The army of golems made by Caridin was used to give the dwarven kingdoms a hundred years of peace, and (as Branka reveals) held back the Archdemon. Choosing to spare the Anvil isn't supposed to be a comfortable decision, but many can (and have) argued that it's a necessary one to save the dwarven people from the darkspawn who have ravaged virtually all the remaining Great Thaigs of the dwarven kingdoms, save two. Grey Wardens aren't heroes, they do whatever is necessary to defeat the darkspawn and stop the Blight. Since Branka's own obsession (to destroy darkspawn) coincides with the Warden's, it's not a vile decision to spare the Anvil, but a pragmatic (and arguably necessary) one.

[quote]Cutlass Jack wrote...

[quote]XxDeonxX wrote...

How? She only takes volunteers at that start (Prior to the Epilogue and without Metagaming) it seems like a good choice, it will help put a swift end to the blight for the sacrifice of few to save the many.. Which is the same concept as the Grey wardens. Makes sense a Grey Warden would preserve it [/quote]

Supporting Branka is vile because of what she does to her followers. What she did to Hespith and the others was unforgivable. Branka has a very interesting interpretation of 'volunteer' before she ever gets the anvil. If she'd do that to them, one could only imagine what she'd do with the anvil.[/quote]

Except if sparing the Anvil is the only means by which to save the dwarven people of Orzammar, doesn't that make it absolutely necessary to spare it, regardless of what Paragon Branka did to the people of her House? Is that no different than Caridin abandoning the dwarven people to the darkspawn because he didn't like how the King was using the Anvil?

Sparing the Anvil is a pragmatic choice, but one many have argued is necessary to save Orzammar (possibly even Kal-Sharok) and the dwarven people from oblivion. The original golems brought over a hundred years of peace before Caridin sealed the fortress and abandoned the dwarven people to basically perish at the hands of the darkspawn armies that overran virtually every thaig except for two: Kal-Sharok and Orzammar. The dwarven kingdoms spanned the entire continent of Thedas, and the darkspawn took over all the Great Thaigs but two. Maybe it's return will not only save the lost dwarven thaigs and prevent the violation of women to make Broodmothers, but claim another hundred years of peace from the darkspawn.

Concerning the comment about the Anvil and the casteless, I don't doubt Bhelen's ability to be willing enough to use his opponents as pawns for the golems in order to retake the lost thaigs (since their empire ran the entire continent of Thedas itself, and they've been reduced to two Great Thaigs - which another poster, Koyasha, compared to having the United States overrun with darkspawn and having only Kal Sharok (LA) and Orzammar (New York) remaining (which you can see on the prior page). However, I see no evidence that he's going to be abducting people out of Dust Town who pose no political threat to him. Should I really be concerned that the same people from the same families who allowed the casteless to live in filth and poverty for countless generations are now being forced to become golems and protect Orzammar and any thaigs reclaimed from the darkspawn?

As Koyasha mentioned on another thread (where I provided a link to on the prior page), even the ending with the Dwarven Warden asking for the aid of Ferelden's army basically means only a small fraction is reclaimed. If nothing is done, then their race is going to die. Harrowmont's leadership leads Orzammar to the brink of disaster, while Bhelen makes improvements and retakes some lost thaigs. While the use of golems will only aid that goal, I don't see why anyone would assume that he's carelessly tossing the casteless to the Anvil when he grants them more freedoms.

[quote]Cutlass Jack wrote...
Branka fed her people to the darkspawn to create Broodmothers to make more darkspawn. The 'whole concept' of the Grey Wardens is actually to stop the Darkspawn. Not make more. [/quote]

I've wrestled with the problem of leaving the Anvil in Branka's hands, but I can't deny the potential it holds to save the dwarven people from the darkspawn. Should we destroy the one tool that could save the dwarven people from the darkspawn because of her actions? How many lives will potentially be lost if we refuse to spare it? What if the golems mean the difference between Orzammar surviving the next hundred years, or falling prey to the darkspawn? We certainly don't know, but all we can do is make the best choice that we can with the limited options that we have.

[quote]Cutlass Jack wrote...

No, pretty massive evil for no gain. You don't stop your enemy by making more of them. That's just stupid. Especially since they were of no help whatsoever getting her past the traps.

Even stupider would be to give this clearly insane person even more power to do insane things with. [/quote]

With a weak King at the helm (like Harrowmont), I'd agree, but I supported his opponent for the throne. Bhelen is a strong King and he can handle the situation with the Anvil, especially since his goal is to beat back the darkspawn with the warrior caste, the casteless, and the golems. Besides, Branka wants to have golems destroy darkspawn. Regardless of her mental state, she's a person who's completely driven to destroy darkspawn and wants to reclaim the lost thaigs - how is this a bad thing? She has the same goals as the Grey Wardens who want to defeat the darkspawn and keep the people of Thedas safe from the darkspawn that threaten them - to kill the darkspawn that infest the Deep Roads.

[quote]Cutlass Jack wrote...

She wasn't smart enough to get past the traps on her own (which honestly weren't that tricky). And she sacrificed all her people to do it. So she wasn't convincing me that she had what it took to figure out how to use the anvil. How many more people would she sacrifice failing on that too? And what would she do when she ran out of willing test subjects?

And you're willingly endorsing her behavior if you give her the anvil. Every atrocity she commits with it is due to you. So yes, its a pretty vile choice to go with her. Even if it is for the 'greater good.' [/quote]
We don't know if it's that she wasn't smart enough, or wanted the darkspawn to widdle away at the golems protecting the fortress. Given the dead golems who appear to have been defeated, it's possible that Branka's actions made it possible for the Warden to be able to succeed by disabling other traps and destroying possible golems that are waiting guard before we ever arrived, as unpleasant as Branka's actions were.

[quote]Cutlass Jack wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

You're confusing the Harrowmont ending (where she abducts surfacers) with the Bhelen ending (where he isolates her in her fortress because she refuses to make golems solely for him).[/quote]

Not at all. Branka clearly goes against Bhelen's wishes causing them to war with each other (which is counter to what I quoted). And Bhelen's ending very specifically says 'willing or not' in relation to putting subjects to the anvil. [/quote]

She goes against his wishes by not solely making golems for him. There's absolutely no proof that anyone is taken unwillingly in the Bhelen and Branka Epilogue.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 30 janvier 2011 - 10:13 .

[Cutlass Jack]

LobselVith8 wrote...

She goes against his wishes by not solely making golems for him. There's absolutely no proof that anyone is taken unwillingly in the Bhelen and Branka Epilogue.

Are you saying the Bhelen/Branka ending did not say: "King Bhelen works eagerly with Branka to provide subjects--willing or not--so that the golems can push the darkspawn back."

Because every reference I can find for it says that. (edit: not a trick question, just looking for clarification from someone who's seen it directly.)

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 30 janvier 2011 - 06:27 .

[LobselVith8]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

She goes against his wishes by not solely making golems for him. There's absolutely no proof that anyone is taken unwillingly in the Bhelen and Branka Epilogue.

Are you saying the Bhelen/Branka ending did not say: "King Bhelen works eagerly with Branka to provide subjects--willing or not--so that the golems can push the darkspawn back."

Because every reference I can find for it says that. (edit: not a trick question, just looking for clarification from someone who's seen it directly.)

I know the Epilogue page on the unofficial DA Wiki says that (but it's mistaken about the Dalish boon happening for every Warden and about the Magi boon being granted). I also know that the casteless still get more freedoms even if the Anvil is spared, so clearly Bhelen isn't feeding all the casteless to the Anvil if he's willing to give them freedoms to take up arms against the darkspawn.

[KnightofPhoenix]

There is no indication that Bhelen is using casteless necessarily. I think it's more likely that he is shipping political opponents to be useful for once in their lives.

Forcing the casteless is risky and dangerous for Bhelen's own position. We know from the game that Bhelen suspects Branka may have lost it. I would find it hard to believe that Bhelen trusted her to take control over one of the pillars of his regime. Nor is it in his interest to alienate them when some nobles and warriors don't like him.

It's possible that Bhelen forced casteless criminals and Carta remnants (who try to kill you after you kill Jarvia) into the anvil. But nothing really suggests that he targeted the casteless indiscriminately and en mass. You'd think something like that would be mentioned in the epilogue. Since it isn't and the epilogue says the casteless are better off, we have no reason to think that Bhelen is doing this.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 janvier 2011 - 07:22 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

There is no indication that Bhelen is using casteless necessarily. I think it's more likely that he is shipping political opponents to be useful for once in their lives.

Forcing the casteless is risky and dangerous for Bhelen's own position. We know from the game that Bhelen suspects Branka may have lost it. I would find it hard to believe that Bhelen trusted her to take control over one of the pillars of his regime. Nor is it in his interest to alienate them when some nobles and warriors don't like him.

It's possible that Bhelen forced casteless criminals and Carta remnants (who try to kill you after you kill Jarvia) into the anvil. But nothing really suggests that he targeted the casteless indiscriminately and en mass. You'd think something like that would be mentioned in the epilogue. Since it isn't and the epilogue says the casteless are better off, we have no reason to think that Bhelen is doing this.

Yes, this. It was one of the deciding factors in my DC playthrough, in whether or not I should keep the anvil. Bhelen uses it on his political enemies in the epilogue, which would be warrior and noble castes. I even doubt that he would put general casteless criminals to the anvil as a first choice, though Carta thugs I can see, since they are potentially dangerous to him.

[Giggles_Manically]

If there was an option to kill Branka and keep the anvil I would take it.



As there is I dont often keep it.

I did on my Dwarven golden age run and loved hearing Oghren's speech to the assembly.

[Augustei]

Yeah im sure like 90% of players would take that option if they could.