43 réponses à ce sujet

[Darth Wolfenbarg]

**Dragon Age: Origins and Mass Effect spoilers follow, back away slowly**

I beat Origins for the first time recently, and I really thought the loophole for you to get out of dying against the Archdemon was a stroke of genius. It ensured that there couldn't be any truly happy endings, and thus fit with Bioware's "dark fantasy" idea that I didn't think I was seeing until that moment. However, I'm starting to wonder if that decision will have any real gravity in the actual game, and here's why:

In Mass Effect, there was a chance of Wrex dying. Because of the mere chance of his death, Bioware put him in a support role for the sequel in order to reduce variables, and unless they are really pulling all the stops for the final title, he'll probably have the same role for the final chapter. Well we're in a similar situation with Morrigan's Old God baby. Many people didn't take her option due to the absolutely slimy nature of it, so does that essentially ensure that the god child has little significance on the story of the rest of the franchise? I know this is a different team we're dealing with, but the scenario is quite similar.

So what do you all think? Will OGB be sidelined and reduced to differing dialogue, or do you think that choice will eventually carry some real weight in the series?

[ViSeiRa]

It won't, the devs stated once that it's not gonna be retconned so any effect it might have must be in the slightest.

[Cazlee]

I believe that one way or another Morrigan will get her god baby, with or without the help of the warden. She's capable enough to figure out another way for it to happen.

Edit: that is, if the baby is actually important to the plot.

Modifié par Cazlee, 18 janvier 2011 - 11:16 .

[Icinix]

I think BioWare may well surprise us all in the coming year or three.

[AlexXIV]

I am thinking Morrigan and her child will have a major role in a future DA, not in DA2 though.

I think this is going to happen. Either the Dark Ritual happens, and Morrigan is going pregnant with either the child of the Hero of Ferelden, Alistair, or Loghain. In any way some sort of significant heritage. If the DR doesn't happen she will go to Orlais or somewhere and find another suitable mating pardner for her baby. Morrigan's child will be born in any way, no matter your decission.

Will the soul of an old god/archdemon play a role? Well either it will or it will not. If it will play a role then she will either get it from the Dark Ritual or she will get it somewhere else. We don't change history here, we only change the degree in which the Warden is involved. So yeah it is comparable with Wrex. It does make a difference for Shepard, but for the world it is just one Krogan that unites the clans, no matter who it is.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 18 janvier 2011 - 11:38 .

[Captain Crash]

Cazlee wrote...

I believe that one way or another Morrigan will get her god baby, with or without the help of the warden. She's capable enough to figure out another way for it to happen.

Edit: that is, if the baby is actually important to the plot.

Its a possibility. It would make that big ultimate decision at the end of Origins kind of pointless though. But David Gaider has already addressed the issue. As a result I dont think the God Baby will be key to any future plot. As Darth just said, its a variable which is very difficult to control.

David Gaider wrote...

If the player didn't do the Dark Ritual, or didn't get Alistair or Loghain to do it, then it wasn't done. Had Morrigan figured out some way to otherwise do it, then nobody would have died when the Archdemon was slain. If she had some way to go about getting the Archdemon's soul without resorting to the Dark Ritual as she proposed it, then why did she go through all the trouble?

We could undoubtedly come up with some complex Plan B on Morrigan's part whereby she gets the Archdemon's soul but has to do something far more terrible-- but a) that removes the player's agency in the biggest single choice of Origins and would probably be pretty lame.

Modifié par Captain Crash, 18 janvier 2011 - 12:08 .

[AlexXIV]

Captain Crash wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

I believe that one way or another Morrigan will get her god baby, with or without the help of the warden. She's capable enough to figure out another way for it to happen.

Edit: that is, if the baby is actually important to the plot.

Its a possibility. It would make that big ultimate decision at the end of Origins kind of pointless though. But David Gaider has already addressed the issue. As a result I dont think the God Baby will be key to any future plot. As Darth just said, its a variable which is very difficult to control.

David Gaider wrote...

If the player didn't do the Dark Ritual, or didn't get Alistair or Loghain to do it, then it wasn't done. Had Morrigan figured out some way to otherwise do it, then nobody would have died when the Archdemon was slain. If she had some way to go about getting the Archdemon's soul without resorting to the Dark Ritual as she proposed it, then why did she go through all the trouble?

We could undoubtedly come up with some complex Plan B on Morrigan's part whereby she gets the Archdemon's soul but has to do something far more terrible-- but a) that removes the player's agency in the biggest single choice of Origins and would probably be pretty lame.

You know what is even more lame than Morrigan finding another way to get a 'supernatural' baby? If the OGB doesn't play a major role in future DA games. Because then this decision was not only pointless but also the most stupid thing the Warden could have done. Sacrificing his life for nothing.

[Maconbar]

Captain Crash wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

I believe that one way or another Morrigan will get her god baby, with or without the help of the warden. She's capable enough to figure out another way for it to happen.

Edit: that is, if the baby is actually important to the plot.

Its a possibility. It would make that big ultimate decision at the end of Origins kind of pointless though. But David Gaider has already addressed the issue. As a result I dont think the God Baby will be key to any future plot. As Darth just said, its a variable which is very difficult to control.

David Gaider wrote...

If the player didn't do the Dark Ritual, or didn't get Alistair or Loghain to do it, then it wasn't done. Had Morrigan figured out some way to otherwise do it, then nobody would have died when the Archdemon was slain. If she had some way to go about getting the Archdemon's soul without resorting to the Dark Ritual as she proposed it, then why did she go through all the trouble?

We could undoubtedly come up with some complex Plan B on Morrigan's part whereby she gets the Archdemon's soul but has to do something far more terrible-- but a) that removes the player's agency in the biggest single choice of Origins and would probably be pretty lame.

However in your quote Gaider calles the DR the biggest single choice of Origins. For the people that selected DR I think that the OGB has to play a role in future games. Otherwise it's the biggest choice in DA:O according to Gaider yet at the same time it is totally irrelevant and becomes simply a mechanic to avoid a warden death.

[Who is that Masked Man]

In Witch Hunt, Morrigan says she has to prepare the OGB for "what is to come." If you refused the ritual she says it still doesn't change what is coming.

So I'm guessing that the OGB will have some effect, if it exists... perhaps even a really significant effect... but that the storyline itself is about Morrigan vs. Flemeth or whatever and that the existence or nonexistence of the OGB is only a part of the larger story.

If you look at it one way, Wrex's survival means a whole lot of difference for the Krogan as far as story-lore goes, even though it affected only a small part of our actual gaming experience. If you look at it another way, even letting the Destiny Ascension get blown up in ME1 made very little difference to the story in ME2 (edit: to game play I mean, again, there was a siginificant effect on background lore), and so carried little to no actual "weight."

I'm not sure what effect the OGB will have, but if the ME games are anything to go by, we're going to have to accept that even the gravest decisions our character makes may make only a cosmetic difference in the end. And given that the Dark Ritual choice has been billed by Gaider as one of the most important in the game, I'd venture to suggest that as goes the OGB, so goes every other decision we made in that game.

In other words, the OGB will carry at least the same weight as any other decision we made in Origins.

Modifié par Who is that Masked Man, 18 janvier 2011 - 12:38 .

[Captain Crash]

Well im sure we can all agree that this plot point isn't going to be an easy fix!!



It may be the biggest choice in origins. But its pretty irrelevant if you never actually did it!! As Gaider said, giving Morrigan the God Baby anyway would be pretty lame if you chose not to.

[Cutlasskiwi]

I would be seriously irked if Morrigan had OGB even though I refused the ritual. If they wanted her to have the OGB why even give the player the choice to refuse?

[Nerevar-as]

Too soon to know. Wrex could make it easier to recruit Krogan troops in ME3. I think both killing Wrex and destroying data on the Genophage cure could mean no help from Krogans.

However, that´s unlikely to affect gameplay in a big way, and the same probably applies to OGB. It can be significant, but I don´t think a significant part of the gameplay or story will change because of him.

[Kidd]

I believe that Morrigan will amass power somehow, through various and multitudes of means. When she is powerful enough to stand up against whatever she's looking to fight - the very essence that created the first Darkspawn maybe - we will know so. And at that time, when we get to know what she has done or hasn't done to grow in power, we'll see the results of the OGB. If there is no OGB, then she will be weaker and/or perhaps make up for the lack of an OGB through other means.

That's my theory, anyway. Morrigan is the greatest hero of all, is my thoughts.

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 18 janvier 2011 - 12:58 .

[AlexXIV]

Yellow Words wrote...

I would be seriously irked if Morrigan had OGB even though I refused the ritual. If they wanted her to have the OGB why even give the player the choice to refuse?

Well if the OGB does something horrible, even worse than a Blight then the Warden's reputation would suffer big time he would turn from saviour to monster or something. It probably wouldn't change the world since the evil can happen with or without OGB. But if the Warden was responsible, then people would blame him. If the Warden sacrificed himself or someone else to avoid the OGB and the evil still happens, then at least the Warden can keep his honor and hero status.

With maybe the exception that if Morrigan is responsible for the evil, then people will probably remember that she travelled with him and he didn't kill her when he had the chance.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 18 janvier 2011 - 01:11 .

[MaxDeltree]

Yeah, I agree that Morrigan will have a child anyway. The variable will be if it's an OGB or a regular child.

Dragon Age 2 already presents 3 timelines as default. So we can be pretty sure that some things will change based on our decisions.

[SteveGarbage]

Here's my opinion on the topic - The God Baby Dilemma @ greywardens.com

[Maconbar]

Yellow Words wrote...

I would be seriously irked if Morrigan had OGB even though I refused the ritual. If they wanted her to have the OGB why even give the player the choice to refuse?

I don't think that you have to worry about that, DG has indicated that this won't happen.

[Maconbar]

SteveGarbage wrote...

Here's my opinion on the topic - The God Baby Dilemma @ greywardens.com

I agree with your analysis but must raise an objection because I don't think that BW can talk about important decisions and then make the decisions irrelevant. For example if I import an OGB-based play-through into DA:3, then the OGB should be important. If I import a non-OGB-based save then I don't want to see anything that suggests the existence of an OGB.

I am hopeful that BW will be able to do move this forward in an interesting way because I think that DG et al mapped out the overall story arc knowing how important this decision is. I could be wrong and if so I will be very disappointed because I thought that the DR/non-DR choice was a good wrinkle to an otherwise fairly conventional story.

[Cutlasskiwi]

AlexXIV wrote...
Well if the OGB does something horrible, even worse than a Blight then the Warden's reputation would suffer big time he would turn from saviour to monster or something. It probably wouldn't change the world since the evil can happen with or without OGB. But if the Warden was responsible, then people would blame him. If the Warden sacrificed himself or someone else to avoid the OGB and the evil still happens, then at least the Warden can keep his honor and hero status.

With maybe the exception that if Morrigan is responsible for the evil, then people will probably remember that she travelled with him and he didn't kill her when he had the chance.

But I would still see it as BioWare overwriting my decision. How could she get OGB without the soul from the archdemon? If the evil has nothing to do with the OGB then I would be ok with it. It will be interesting to see how they handle it but I kind of hope they wont base a whole game around it. 

Maconbar wrote...
I don't think that you have to worry about that, DG has indicated that this won't happen.

And that gave me great comfort and I hope it stays that way. 

[Potato Cat]

I do think the OGB is essential to Morrigan's plan. If the soul of the Archdemon went into the Warden/Alistair/Loghain, perhaps she can get the soul from the corpse of the Archdemon's slayer. It's was just quicker and easier to do the dark ritual. Either way, she gets at least one child, (if the Warden slept with her but didn't dark ritual with her, she'll have two). I believe Morrigan to have good intentions. I mean, just think what would happen if the Flemeth had the OGB. Let's face it, other than the Chantry, Flemeth is the greatest evil in Thedas. And that's why we all love her.

[LoneStalker]

And what if I choose to kill Morrigan in WH? An orphan Archdemon?

I liked the way BW handled save importing thing: I won't bother with old saves and choose one of the three backgrounds in the beginning of DA2. Since most of my decisions will not have any effect anyway...

[AlexXIV]

Well Morrigan wanted her babe to be born with the soul of an old god, or archdemon or what they are. But nowhere it is said that the one we slew is the last or only one. Of course it always took centuries for a new archdemon to appear. But it is not like we know that it has to be that way. Only that it always has been that way. There are many factors that can change it. For once Flemeth and her search for whatever it is. Morrigan and her scemes. The Architect and whatever he does. Hell even the Hero of Ferelden. He survived killing the Archdemon even though it has never been done before. If that's not proof that things are not just set into stone but rather change, then I don't know. It has never been tradition that things stay the same or we would still live in caves or on trees or even in the ocean. No, traditionally things change.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 18 janvier 2011 - 04:14 .

[AlexXIV]

LoneStalker wrote...

And what if I choose to kill Morrigan in WH? An orphan Archdemon?
I liked the way BW handled save importing thing: I won't bother with old saves and choose one of the three backgrounds in the beginning of DA2. Since most of my decisions will not have any effect anyway...

You can't kill Morrigan. Not even in WH.

[Jimmy Fury]

I think the best route would be to make OGB a potential companion in a future game. Then, quite simply, if there is no OGB in the import, the character does not exist. Sort of like a built in DLC companion.
Then perhaps the inclusion and exclusion of OGB could result in major differences over the course of the game.
Like... there's some faction you can potential join forces with but only if the OGB does not exist. Or if there's something like in DA2 where you have to choose a side and having the OGB creates a massive incentive to pick one side while not having her/him urges you toward the other.
Thus making the OGB important but without forcing it into existing and messing with the choice that was made.

Or like... have a major event occur in a way that it can be attributed to OGB if s/he exists but doesn't have to be, just in case s/he doesn't exist...
Does that make sense?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Elfman wrote...

I do think the OGB is essential to Morrigan's plan. If the soul of the Archdemon went into the Warden/Alistair/Loghain, perhaps she can get the soul from the corpse of the Archdemon's slayer. It's was just quicker and easier to do the dark ritual. Either way, she gets at least one child, (if the Warden slept with her but didn't dark ritual with her, she'll have two). I believe Morrigan to have good intentions. I mean, just think what would happen if the Flemeth had the OGB. Let's face it, other than the Chantry, Flemeth is the greatest evil in Thedas. And that's why we all love her.

The OGB isn't essential to Morrigans plans. I think this was made clear in Witch Hunt if you chose not to do the ritual. Morrigans plans continue, regardless of whether or not the kid is around. The kid is a piece of a puzzle, a means to power Morrigan needs for whatever it is she's doing.

Morrigan could not get the AD soul from a dead Warden, either. Seeing how the Warden dies because her/his soul mutually annihilate's the AD soul, thus ending a Blight, this would not be possible, since if the Warden is really dead, so is the AD's soul.

As far as non-ritual Morrigan's pregnancy, it doesn't happen in the case of a female Warden, who obviously cannot sleep with or impregnate her. A kid for Morrigan is not a set factor. She carries on with whatever she is doing, regardless.