43 réponses à ce sujet

[WidowMaker9394]

Wasn't it non-cannon?

[JamesX]

I always thought it was odd that Bioware did not make the Morrigan Ending the cannon ending for DA. It is the most dynamic ending of them all.



Unless Bioware do not make a DA story (e.g. like how DA2 is a separate parallel story) with scope and scale that overlap with DA1, any attempts at justifying Morrigan and Witch Hunt DLC is going to be pathetically weak.

[Maria Caliban]

Darth Wolfenbarg wrote...

**Dragon Age: Origins and Mass Effect spoilers follow, back away slowly**

I beat Origins for the first time recently, and I really thought the loophole for you to get out of dying against the Archdemon was a stroke of genius. It ensured that there couldn't be any truly happy endings, and thus fit with Bioware's "dark fantasy" idea that I didn't think I was seeing until that moment.

How does the old god baby prevent a happy ending?

However, I'm starting to wonder if that decision will have any real gravity in the actual game...

Sure, it had gravity in the actual game. It meant that no one had to die to defeat the archdemon.

In Mass Effect, there was a chance of Wrex dying. Because of the mere chance of his death, Bioware put him in a support role for the sequel in order to reduce variables, and unless they are really pulling all the stops for the final title, he'll probably have the same role for the final chapter. Well we're in a similar situation with Morrigan's Old God baby. Many people didn't take her option due to the absolutely slimy nature of it, so does that essentially ensure that the god child has little significance on the story of the rest of the franchise? I know this is a different team we're dealing with, but the scenario is quite similar.

So what do you all think? Will OGB be sidelined and reduced to differing dialogue, or do you think that choice will eventually carry some real weight in the series?

You're assuming that the Old God baby is somehow inherently important to the Dragon Age story.

The OGB is not a companion. The Warden is not the center of DA story. She is a person who performed an important act at the beginning of the story by ending the Blight early.

[AlexXIV]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Darth Wolfenbarg wrote...

**Dragon Age: Origins and Mass Effect spoilers follow, back away slowly**

I beat Origins for the first time recently, and I really thought the loophole for you to get out of dying against the Archdemon was a stroke of genius. It ensured that there couldn't be any truly happy endings, and thus fit with Bioware's "dark fantasy" idea that I didn't think I was seeing until that moment.

How does the old god baby prevent a happy ending?

However, I'm starting to wonder if that decision will have any real gravity in the actual game...

Sure, it had gravity in the actual game. It meant that no one had to die to defeat the archdemon.

In Mass Effect, there was a chance of Wrex dying. Because of the mere chance of his death, Bioware put him in a support role for the sequel in order to reduce variables, and unless they are really pulling all the stops for the final title, he'll probably have the same role for the final chapter. Well we're in a similar situation with Morrigan's Old God baby. Many people didn't take her option due to the absolutely slimy nature of it, so does that essentially ensure that the god child has little significance on the story of the rest of the franchise? I know this is a different team we're dealing with, but the scenario is quite similar.

So what do you all think? Will OGB be sidelined and reduced to differing dialogue, or do you think that choice will eventually carry some real weight in the series?

You're assuming that the Old God baby is somehow inherently important to the Dragon Age story.

The OGB is not a companion. The Warden is not the center of DA story. She is a person who performed an important act at the beginning of the story by ending the Blight early.

Well last time I played Awakenings it ended with something about the Warden disappearing a couple of years later, and something about the Warden's story not being finished yet. Of course that was before Witch Hunt but I think it was not about Witch Hunt. I think the Warden, if not with Morrigan, disappears and does show up in some important role again. In what role and where I don't know, but I think there are still lose ends of Origins that will find closure only in DA2 and DA3.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 18 janvier 2011 - 10:25 .

[Maria Caliban]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well last time I played Awakenings it ended with something about the Warden disappearing a couple of years later, and something about the Warden's story not being finished yet. Of course that was before Witch Hunt but I think it was not about Witch Hunt. I think the Warden, if not with Morrigan, disappears and does show up in some important role again. In what role and where I don't know, but I think there are still lose ends of Origins that will find closure only in DA2 and DA3.

It going to be hard to put the Warden in an important role when they might be, you know, dead. Also, they'd have no voice and you'd need to put a full covering helmet over their face.

At best, the Warden might be discussed in passing in DA 2 or DA 3.

[Drizzt ORierdan]

I think they pretty much can do whatever they want apart from resurrecting people from the dead...
I mean, illogical stuff. If they plan the OGB to have a big role in the Flemeth/Morrigan struggle, they will find a way to make it "appear"... If they dont, the matter will have no weight at all. Regardless of your choice, its their game, their story to tell... :-)

I dont quite understand people getting so infuriated about it and saying, "so its no difference what I choose, this is bull****", only because by that logic, your decision didnt had "lasting" consequences.

As I see it, wether your decision was to perform the ritual or not, it had GREAT personal consequences for you at that moment, for that battle (Morrigan could leave before the battle or not, you could survive or not, you could save the King's life or not). And also there is the moral dillemma of self sacrificing and dying for your principles or compromising to a "dark" unknown possible future event.

All those elements made the decision feel engaging and relevant.

I always compare this with an episode of Lord of the Rings...

SPOILER

When Gandalf "dies" at the end of the first book, its a very relevant and engaging moment. The fact that you later discover that he survived, doesnt taint or "cheapen" that moment at all, wether you're happy with the outcome or you just acknowledge that it was a clever ruse from the author from the beginning.

Modifié par Drizzt ORierdan, 19 janvier 2011 - 12:12 .

[Aedan_Cousland]

The devs could always have Morrigan have the god baby even if the player chose not participate in the dark ritual. They could always write in loopholes that allow Morrigan to be impregnated, while players who chose not to participate in the dark ritual don't get their choices retconned.

For example they could have Morrigan sneak off and seduce Riordan that night. He was a poor candidate for the ritual because he was close to the calling, but that could be used to explain how Morrigan was able to get impregnated *without* saving the player's Warden, Alistair or Loghain. He would be a plan C option who was only partially successful in the ritual.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 19 janvier 2011 - 07:28 .

[RosaAquafire]

I personally think this is hard either way.

For a Warden who gave their life so that Morrigan couldn't get that baby, having the baby get to Morrigan anyways is brutally harsh. That character/player gave up something huge to ensure that baby wasn't born. What does that turn their choice into if that baby was born, anyway? They gave their life for nothing.

On the other side, the baby being relevant undermines the US ending just as badly. You gave your life so that Morrigan couldn't get that child and wreck havoc ... but if she gets the baby, it affects nothing at all? What did you give your life for then? So an eccentric lady wouldn't get a baby?

My main Warden chose to do the DR because she was a coward who couldn't bear the thought of losing her life or losing Alistair. I would personally feel cheated if nothing bad happened as a result of taking that coward's way out.

But my FAVOURITE ending is the US, and that ending becomes a cheap sad heroic ending if there was no reason at all for the Warden to sacrifice themselves.

Now, I have faith in Bioware, but this is frankly a tough, tough call. To make this work and work well, both choices need to be given equal weight, or what David himself admits is the biggest choice in Origins really doesn't have any choice to it at all.

[Felfenix]

I doubt the decisions will greatly influence the grand scheme of things, because they never do and it would be more work than the devs are probably willing to do.

[Avilia]

I don't know about the no happy ending - my DC was pretty happy after Loghain died killing the AD. Anora was happy her father died a hero, she got the throne in partnership with Alistair. They seemed to be getting along and getting things done.

I'll be extremely surprised if the OGB exists in canon. Morrigan can of course find herself another breeding partner but that's hardly the same thing. Unless she manages to scare up another old god's soul and a grey warden to father it.

Modifié par Avilia, 19 janvier 2011 - 07:55 .

[Nyaore]

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

The devs could always have Morrigan have the god baby even if the player chose not participate in the dark ritual. They could always write in loopholes that allow Morrigan to be impregnated, while players who chose not to participate in the dark ritual don't get their choices retconned.

For example they could have Morrigan sneak off and seduce Riordan that night. He was a poor candidate for the ritual because he was close to the calling, but that could be used to explain how Morrigan was able to get impregnated *without* saving the player's Warden, Alistair or Loghain. He would be a plan C option who was only partially successful in the ritual.

However as Gaider's quote points out on the last page, had the ritual been done in any manner the Warden would have never died during the fight with the Archdemon as their souls collided. Which makes the idea of Morrigan seducing Riordan or any of the other men behind the Warden's back pointless, as the ending itself negates the idea entirely. No OGB = No Warden getting their soul fried out of existence.
That said however I wouldn't be surprised if Morrigan comes back with a child in later games even if you didn't choose the ritual. However what soul it has will be entirely dependant upon whether the ritual was done or not.

Modifié par Nyaore, 19 janvier 2011 - 08:02 .

[Darth Wolfenbarg]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Darth Wolfenbarg wrote...

**Dragon Age: Origins and Mass Effect spoilers follow, back away slowly**

I beat Origins for the first time recently, and I really thought the loophole for you to get out of dying against the Archdemon was a stroke of genius. It ensured that there couldn't be any truly happy endings, and thus fit with Bioware's "dark fantasy" idea that I didn't think I was seeing until that moment.

How does the old god baby prevent a happy ending?

In Mass Effect, there was a chance of Wrex dying. Because of the mere chance of his death, Bioware put him in a support role for the sequel in order to reduce variables, and unless they are really pulling all the stops for the final title, he'll probably have the same role for the final chapter. Well we're in a similar situation with Morrigan's Old God baby. Many people didn't take her option due to the absolutely slimy nature of it, so does that essentially ensure that the god child has little significance on the story of the rest of the franchise? I know this is a different team we're dealing with, but the scenario is quite similar.

So what do you all think? Will OGB be sidelined and reduced to differing dialogue, or do you think that choice will eventually carry some real weight in the series?

You're assuming that the Old God baby is somehow inherently important to the Dragon Age story.

The OGB is not a companion. The Warden is not the center of DA story. She is a person who performed an important act at the beginning of the story by ending the Blight early.

It prevented a happy ending because your only way out was to give someone who had just proven herself to be completely untrustworthy and manipulative a child with the soul of an old god. The same old gods that were powerful enough to teach magic to humans. You do so with no idea of what she'll do with it and no knowledge of whether or not Flemeth will come back and take over Morrigan's body anyway. Your only other option requires someone dying. Doesn't sound like there are any happy endings there to me.

It's the single most important choice to the story of Origins. I don't see how it would be unwise to assume that OGB may have some importance to the rest of the series.

[TJPags]

Darth Wolfenbarg wrote...

I beat Origins for the first time recently, and I really thought the loophole for you to get out of dying against the Archdemon was a stroke of genius. It ensured that there couldn't be any truly happy endings, and thus fit with Bioware's "dark fantasy" idea that I didn't think I was seeing until that moment.

So what do you all think? Will OGB be sidelined and reduced to differing dialogue, or do you think that choice will eventually carry some real weight in the series?

I'm curious about the bolded part.  How does the DR ensure there can't be a happy ending?  Surely not every male warden that did the DR was in a relationship with Morrigan?  And surely some female wardens were not in a relationship with Ali, and had him do it, or had Loghain do it, and wasn't in a relationship with him.

So what, exactly, prevents a happy ending?  Assuming you did not like Morrigan - and you may not, either completely or as any given warden  - what's the big deal?  Morrigan leaves - that's good, right?  You and the other wardens live - that's good, right?  The AD is dead - that's good, right?  The Blight is stopped - that's good, right?

Is it just the whole "OMG, there's an OGB out there!!!??!?!?" issue?  Surely not everyone is concerned/worried about the evil that OGB can do?  Surely some feel bringing an Old God back is a good thing, right?

And even if there's some concern, surely some of those concerned people figure. "Hey, my job (as warden) is stopping the blight.  Let someone else worry about Old God Babies!!!!"

No?  Just me?? 

[Razored1313]

i think the OGB will be dealt with like wrex was in ME2,

begin speculation

i believe flemeth will be a main antagonist down the line, and if you did the dark ritual, the child can be a tool to be used against her, im sure you also get chances to either help or hinder flemeth in the line of games to follow.

the real question is, is morrigan really the side you want to be on?

end of speculation

[TJPags]

froogle345 wrote...

i think the OGB will be dealt with like wrex was in ME2,
begin speculation
i believe flemeth will be a main antagonist down the line, and if you did the dark ritual, the child can be a tool to be used against her, im sure you also get chances to either help or hinder flemeth in the line of games to follow.
the real question is, is morrigan really the side you want to be on?
end of speculation

I never played ME1 or 2, so I have no idea what or who Wrex or The Wrex are.

But, question - the OGB has the soul of an Old God.  The intent was to bring an Old God, with it's powers, back into the world.

Maybe - just maybe - a God will have enough power that it can prevent itself from being used as a tool by mere humans?

[Brockololly]

TJPags wrote...
And even if there's some concern, surely some of those concerned people figure. "Hey, my job (as warden) is stopping the blight.  Let someone else worry about Old God Babies!!!!"

No?  Just me?? 

I think the issue with the OGB's existence is the question as to how it pertains to the other Old Gods and the Darkspawn- from the POV of the Wardens. The Wardens have a good deal of knowledge on the Old Gods (Hell, they know exactly where they all are sleeping) and with good reason as they can start a Blight.

Question is whether or not the Old God Baby would still emit the song of the Old Gods  to draw the darkspawn to it? Or whether it could be corrupted by the darkspawn even if its in a human body? In any event, I think there would be plenty of reasons for the Wardens at large to be interested in it and Morrigan/Flemeth's role in it all for that matter.

[Maria Caliban]

Darth Wolfenbarg wrote...

It prevented a happy ending because your only way out was to give someone who had just proven herself to be completely untrustworthy and manipulative a child with the soul of an old god.

I didn't find Morrigan untrustworthy and there's nothing wrong with being manipulative.

If BioWare requires people to think of Morrigan as a horrible person for the story to work, they've failed considerably as lots of people like her.

The same old gods that were powerful enough to teach magic to humans.

Still not unhappy.

You do so with no idea of what she'll do with it and no knowledge of whether or not Flemeth will come back and take over Morrigan's body anyway.

My PC killed Flemeth and has no reason to assume she'll return.

Your only other option requires someone dying.

And how is that a bad thing?

Doesn't sound like there are any happy endings there to me.

Perform the Dark Ritual. Have Loghian sacrifice himself. Both of those count as happy endings to me.

It's the single most important choice to the story of Origins.

Possibly. I haven't seen any evidence of that, myself.

[TJPags]

Brockololly wrote...

TJPags wrote...
And even if there's some concern, surely some of those concerned people figure. "Hey, my job (as warden) is stopping the blight.  Let someone else worry about Old God Babies!!!!"

No?  Just me?? 

I think the issue with the OGB's existence is the question as to how it pertains to the other Old Gods and the Darkspawn- from the POV of the Wardens. The Wardens have a good deal of knowledge on the Old Gods (Hell, they know exactly where they all are sleeping) and with good reason as they can start a Blight.

Question is whether or not the Old God Baby would still emit the song of the Old Gods  to draw the darkspawn to it? Or whether it could be corrupted by the darkspawn even if its in a human body? In any event, I think there would be plenty of reasons for the Wardens at large to be interested in it and Morrigan/Flemeth's role in it all for that matter.

Wardens in general, perhaps -I can see what you're saying.

But my Warden?  The PC warden, who got - at best - a half-arsed explanation of, maybe, 20% of things Warden-ish?  Look at who we were learning from - Alistair, who himself had been a warden all of 6 months, and who either didn't know things, or didn't care to share them.  Hell, half of what he did know he didn't share until it came up - remember the dream of the AD?  Yea, could have mentioned that one.  He actually had no idea about the whole "Warden needs to kill AD so the Old God soul goes into the GW and not another DS" thing.

So I think what I say can be valid for a lot of PC wardens - to say nothing about the ones who never wanted to be a warden in the first place.  I had a DE Warden who wanted no part of the job.  I had a Cousland Warden who didn't want any part of it either  - he went through the motions to get at Howe and Loghain.

When presented with the DR option, those two Wardens - including the Cousland who was in a relationship with Morrigan and didn't want her to leave- went for it with no reservations.  The DE - hell, he saw it as a get out of death free card.

So your point may be a good one from a Warden-centric point of view, or even philosophically, but in terms of Wardens who, basically, know nothing about being a Warden - may not be such a huge consideration.

[Naitaka]

RosaAquafire wrote...

I personally think this is hard either way.
For a Warden who gave their life so that Morrigan couldn't get that baby, having the baby get to Morrigan anyways is brutally harsh. That character/player gave up something huge to ensure that baby wasn't born. What does that turn their choice into if that baby was born, anyway? They gave their life for nothing.
On the other side, the baby being relevant undermines the US ending just as badly. You gave your life so that Morrigan couldn't get that child and wreck havoc ... but if she gets the baby, it affects nothing at all? What did you give your life for then? So an eccentric lady wouldn't get a baby?
My main Warden chose to do the DR because she was a coward who couldn't bear the thought of losing her life or losing Alistair. I would personally feel cheated if nothing bad happened as a result of taking that coward's way out.
But my FAVOURITE ending is the US, and that ending becomes a cheap sad heroic ending if there was no reason at all for the Warden to sacrifice themselves.
Now, I have faith in Bioware, but this is frankly a tough, tough call. To make this work and work well, both choices need to be given equal weight, or what David himself admits is the biggest choice in Origins really doesn't have any choice to it at all.

I think you people are forgetting something. The US is already a cheap sad heroic ending without any effect on Awakening, what's to say that it will have an effect on DAII and beyond? Quite frankly, only being able to choose between *gasp* resurrecting your warden as if US never happened or playing some random Orlesian where non of your Origin choices mattered at all already conviced me that Bioware aren't even going to acknowledge the fact that there WAS an US ending to begin with.

Modifié par Naitaka, 20 janvier 2011 - 03:03 .