591 réponses à ce sujet

[Augustei]

Originally this thread was about how Bhelen could be the good choice for King of Orzamaar without any Metagaming Knowledge - Ignoring the Epilogues.. Without their Knowledge how could it be determined Harrowmont was the better choice.. However the discussion swayed to the following:

At the end of origins, A new Chantry and / or Circle tower could be formed. If they are then both of them call into the question an Exalted March by the Divine. Who Would Win this war and why?

This Discussion Starts at about Page 15 of this thread.

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 26 janvier 2011 - 02:58 .

[IanPolaris]

XxDeonxX,

You are given a lot of clues if you know where to look and bother to scrape below the surface.

1.  If you are DC, it's obvious.  He's your sister's spouse and he clearly treats her with almost all of the rights of a noble born married spouse which is highly unusual.  Your sister also swears by him.

2.  Even if you are not a DC, Bhelen gives you a clear and clear-cut promise of troops to fight the blight, and Harrowmount does not.  Honestly that should be enough by itself.

3.  Listen to the criers.  Both Harrowmount's and Bhelens paint Harrowmount as the defender of tradition, and Bhelen as the harbinger of change.  Then go to dusttown or even talk about the castless with the Shaper of Memories or other dwarves and ask yourself which is better.

All that is in addition to talking to Nerev Helmi and the Merchant.

4.  Finally take Zevram with you when you go to Orzammar, and he quickly fills you into what's what and who is weak (and who isn't) when it comes to the candidates.

-Polaris

[Maconbar]

I took the same view during my initial playthrough. Based on what I observed about Bhelen, I didn't think that I could trust him to rule properly.

[Maconbar]

IanPolaris wrote...

XxDeonxX,

You are given a lot of clues if you know where to look and bother to scrape below the surface.

1.  If you are DC, it's obvious.  He's your sister's spouse and he clearly treats her with almost all of the rights of a noble born married spouse which is highly unusual.  Your sister also swears by him.

2.  Even if you are not a DC, Bhelen gives you a clear and clear-cut promise of troops to fight the blight, and Harrowmount does not.  Honestly that should be enough by itself.

3.  Listen to the criers.  Both Harrowmount's and Bhelens paint Harrowmount as the defender of tradition, and Bhelen as the harbinger of change.  Then go to dusttown or even talk about the castless with the Shaper of Memories or other dwarves and ask yourself which is better.

All that is in addition to talking to Nerev Helmi and the Merchant.

4.  Finally take Zevram with you when you go to Orzammar, and he quickly fills you into what's what and who is weak (and who isn't) when it comes to the candidates.

-Polaris

Plently of dictators and other horrible rulers have painted themselves as change agents to get to power.

[Augustei]

IanPolaris wrote...

XxDeonxX,

You are given a lot of clues if you know where to look and bother to scrape below the surface.

1.  If you are DC, it's obvious.  He's your sister's spouse and he clearly treats her with almost all of the rights of a noble born married spouse which is highly unusual.  Your sister also swears by him.

2.  Even if you are not a DC, Bhelen gives you a clear and clear-cut promise of troops to fight the blight, and Harrowmount does not.  Honestly that should be enough by itself.

3.  Listen to the criers.  Both Harrowmount's and Bhelens paint Harrowmount as the defender of tradition, and Bhelen as the harbinger of change.  Then go to dusttown or even talk about the castless with the Shaper of Memories or other dwarves and ask yourself which is better.

All that is in addition to talking to Nerev Helmi and the Merchant.

4.  Finally take Zevram with you when you go to Orzammar, and he quickly fills you into what's what and who is weak (and who isn't) when it comes to the candidates.

-Polaris

I didn't know you could ask zevran about it? What is it that he says?

[caradoc2000]

Do we really need yet another Bhelen thread? The previous one is here.

[Augustei]

caradoc2000 wrote...

Do we really need yet another Bhelen thread? The previous one is here.

The two topics aren't really related apart from the fact they are about Bhelen

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Zevran pipes up if he's in the party when you speak with Harrowmont's second. Basically he says Harrowmont is weak if he's cowering behind others. Bhelen is cowering behind others too, but he's also blackmailing people and threatening their families so natch he's the 'strong choice'.



Considering said blackmail, threats and forgery, there's plenty of reason to be dubious on whether Bhelen's the 'trustworthy choice'. Whoever said political campaigners are obliged to keep their promises?

[caradoc2000]

XxDeonxX wrote...

The two topics aren't really related apart from the fact they are about Bhelen

That thread is all about why Bhelen is better than Harrowmont.

[ejoslin]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Zevran pipes up if he's in the party when you speak with Harrowmont's second. Basically he says Harrowmont is weak if he's cowering behind others. Bhelen is cowering behind others too, but he's also blackmailing people and threatening their families so natch he's the 'strong choice'.

Considering said blackmail, threats and forgery, there's plenty of reason to be dubious on whether Bhelen's the 'trustworthy choice'. Whoever said political campaigners are obliged to keep their promises?

That I don't think was Zevran's main point.  Zevran points out that Harrowmont's own men won't fight for him and that Harrowmont himself is weak.  This is true, not only in the proving.  When you enter Orzammar for the first time and you see that confrontation between Harrowmont and Bhelen where one of Bhelen's men kills the town guard, knocking harrowmont over, his guards run away while Harrowmont is still on the ground, instead of protecting him until he can get away.

Anyway, here's what Zevran says:

Zevran: *Chuckle* And this is to be your king? One who cannot keep his own men from running like frightened children? (Amused.)
Dulin: Lord Harrowmont does not use threats or intimidation to motivate his men. He leads by example. (defending his hero)
Zevran: Ah, I see. So it's his example they follow as they cower from this Prince Bhelen? (mocking)
Dulin: How dare you slander Lord Harrowmont! (Angry)
Zevran: Why should we ally ourselves with someone too scared even to grant us an audience? (Umimpressed.)
Warden: Your snide comments are not helping.
Zevran: Were I you I would seek a stronger king than this Harrowmont. (Dismissive)


If Harrowmont weren't bribing people, then Bhelen would not be able to sway away those votes through forgery. 

Orzammar politics are dirty -- you learn that from the start.  

[Marvin_Arnold]

Bottom line: As in other key decisions, there is no "perfectly good" or "perfectly bad" choice. Bhelen is a ruthless dictator, but he will be a strong king and open Dwarven society. Harrowmont is a nice fellow (by Dwarven standards), and a mediator, but he will be a weak king and keep Orzammar the way it is.

Modifié par Marvin_Arnold, 18 janvier 2011 - 12:07 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

@ejo: Point. I've only heard the conversation once, so I guess I was paraphrasing quite heavily

[Master Shiori]

in any normal society, where the concept of common good is accepted, Harrowmont, who's willing to compromise rather than just force his will upon others, would seem like a great choice for a leader.

Sadly, in dwarven society every House is only looking out for it's own interests, without care about what's good for the society as a whole. In that kind of scenario Harrowmont comes across as completely ineffective ruler.

Bhalen, by using blackmail, threats and publicly displays of strength, comes across as someone who can get the Noble Houses in line and actualy rule the city. Therefore he can improve the society by giving the casteless better rights and can force the Dwarves to focus on bigger things like reclaiming their lost thaigs, rather than petty political infighting.

[HolyAvenger]

Like most big choices in the game, there are strong arguments to be made for either side. The DC origin is sympathetic to Bhelen, the DN is most definitely NOT.

[ejoslin]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Like most big choices in the game, there are strong arguments to be made for either side. The DC origin is sympathetic to Bhelen, the DN is most definitely NOT.

Hmmmm, the DN actually is -- it depends on what you think is important.  IF your main goal is to get revenge on Bhelen, yes, choosing Harrowmont is a no-brainer.  However, if your main goal is to end the blight, Bhelen makes more sense.  When you speak to Harrowmont the last time in the origin, he tells you that even though you had the laws and traditions on your side, he (Harrowmont) could not get you a trial, that Bhelen managed to get the assembly to go against everything to seal you off in the deep roads.

So your DN knows that Harrowmont is not persuasive with the assembly, and all he promises to do is ask them for your troops.  You already know how much more effective Bhelen is than Harrowmont.

Some DNs want the Aeducans to stay on the throne as well, despite what a snake Bhelen is.  After all, they may have some loyalty to the people in their house.  My Princess Aeducan did have to admit that Bhelen was more suited to the rule than she was -- she just wasn't underhanded enough.

Modifié par ejoslin, 18 janvier 2011 - 12:59 .

[mousestalker]

I played a DN who put Bhelen on the throne. Actually, I've done more than one. The canonical one went along with Harrowmount, hoping he would demonstrate to her that he could more effective than he had been previously (the vote concerning her exile). He didn't dazzle her at all and discussing voting on fulfilling obligations was a huge 'no no'. So she got the crown returns to the Assembly and puts it on Bhelen's head. Which produces some great dialogue, btw.

[Wereparrot]

ejoslin wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Like most big choices in the game, there are strong arguments to be made for either side. The DC origin is sympathetic to Bhelen, the DN is most definitely NOT.

Hmmmm, the DN actually is -- it depends on what you think is important.  IF your main goal is to get revenge on Bhelen, yes, choosing Harrowmont is a no-brainer.  However, if your main goal is to end the blight, Bhelen makes more sense.  When you speak to Harrowmont the last time in the origin, he tells you that even though you had the laws and traditions on your side, he (Harrowmont) could not get you a trial, that Bhelen managed to get the assembly to go against everything to seal you off in the deep roads.

So your DN knows that Harrowmont is not persuasive with the assembly, and all he promises to do is ask them for your troops.  You already know how much more effective Bhelen is than Harrowmont.

Some DNs want the Aeducans to stay on the throne as well, despite what a snake Bhelen is.  After all, they may have some loyalty to the people in their house.  My Princess Aeducan did have to admit that Bhelen was more suited to the rule than she was -- she just wasn't underhanded enough.

I think picking Harrowmont as a DN is the best outcome as far as the DN is concernerned, or at least mine would be (I find dwarves a bit boring so I can't play them very long before I give up). My reasoning is that I will have the opportunity to sort out Harrowmont's mess myself because he names me as his heir, and that's not just through being vengeful. 

[Elhanan]

Bhelen for the better epilogue; Harrowmont for the better man.

[ejoslin]

Wereparrot wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Like most big choices in the game, there are strong arguments to be made for either side. The DC origin is sympathetic to Bhelen, the DN is most definitely NOT.

Hmmmm, the DN actually is -- it depends on what you think is important.  IF your main goal is to get revenge on Bhelen, yes, choosing Harrowmont is a no-brainer.  However, if your main goal is to end the blight, Bhelen makes more sense.  When you speak to Harrowmont the last time in the origin, he tells you that even though you had the laws and traditions on your side, he (Harrowmont) could not get you a trial, that Bhelen managed to get the assembly to go against everything to seal you off in the deep roads.

So your DN knows that Harrowmont is not persuasive with the assembly, and all he promises to do is ask them for your troops.  You already know how much more effective Bhelen is than Harrowmont.

Some DNs want the Aeducans to stay on the throne as well, despite what a snake Bhelen is.  After all, they may have some loyalty to the people in their house.  My Princess Aeducan did have to admit that Bhelen was more suited to the rule than she was -- she just wasn't underhanded enough.

I think picking Harrowmont as a DN is the best outcome as far as the DN is concernerned, or at least mine would be (I find dwarves a bit boring so I can't play them very long before I give up). My reasoning is that I will have the opportunity to sort out Harrowmont's mess myself because he names me as his heir, and that's not just through being vengeful. 

You know, I've seen people say this, but the epilogue says this:

In time, Harrowmont's health began to fail. Some claimed it was poison, while others said it was a flagging spirit. Either way, after a protracted illness, the king finally passed away. The wrangling in the Assembly for a successor began almost immediately.

I see nothing in there about becoming Harrowmont's heir.  Is there something in the in-game dialog?

[blothulfur]

My Aeducan chose Bhelen to rule as he was damnably impressed with his brothers cunning and ruthlessness, in an enviroment such as Orzammar where the biggest bastard takes all Bhelen proved himself to be the strongest and most worthy and therefore a perfect king.

The fact that he gives the dusters a chance to prove their worth and limit the games of the great houses was merely a pleasant suprise that showed he had a much nobler motive for his power grab than Harrowmonts suicidal preservation of tradition.

It would have been nice to see this spelled out to the wardens in game however, perhaps with a proper dwarven character who we picked up early (Gorim?) rather than sir drinks a lot cliche pants oghren who just provided comic relief.

[Wereparrot]

ejoslin wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Like most big choices in the game, there are strong arguments to be made for either side. The DC origin is sympathetic to Bhelen, the DN is most definitely NOT.

Hmmmm, the DN actually is -- it depends on what you think is important.  IF your main goal is to get revenge on Bhelen, yes, choosing Harrowmont is a no-brainer.  However, if your main goal is to end the blight, Bhelen makes more sense.  When you speak to Harrowmont the last time in the origin, he tells you that even though you had the laws and traditions on your side, he (Harrowmont) could not get you a trial, that Bhelen managed to get the assembly to go against everything to seal you off in the deep roads.

So your DN knows that Harrowmont is not persuasive with the assembly, and all he promises to do is ask them for your troops.  You already know how much more effective Bhelen is than Harrowmont.

Some DNs want the Aeducans to stay on the throne as well, despite what a snake Bhelen is.  After all, they may have some loyalty to the people in their house.  My Princess Aeducan did have to admit that Bhelen was more suited to the rule than she was -- she just wasn't underhanded enough.

I think picking Harrowmont as a DN is the best outcome as far as the DN is concernerned, or at least mine would be (I find dwarves a bit boring so I can't play them very long before I give up). My reasoning is that I will have the opportunity to sort out Harrowmont's mess myself because he names me as his heir, and that's not just through being vengeful. 

You know, I've seen people say this, but the epilogue says this:

In time, Harrowmont's health began to fail. Some claimed it was poison, while others said it was a flagging spirit. Either way, after a protracted illness, the king finally passed away. The wrangling in the Assembly for a successor began almost immediately.

I see nothing in there about becoming Harrowmont's heir.  Is there something in the in-game dialog?

I think I remember seeing something on the wiki about it. I may be talking rubbish, but I'll post it if I find it. 

[Sarah1281]

He gives the warden forged notes to make harrowmont look bad. which seems like an act of desperation and makes it seem like he is loosing.

Why is that an act of desperation? I see it as him going on the offensive and taking out his opponent's main support (House Helmi and House Dace are Harrowmont's strongest supporters). Is he supposed to be desperate because he's not interested in playing fair? I would call that more 'typical dwarven politics' than 'desperate.' If you want desperate, have you seen Harrowmont's first quest? His only two fighters worth a damn in the Proving up and quit and he can't figure out why and so needs you to figure that out AND to enter in his name and win.

because he doesn't seem to be the stronger king really as many of the nobles disagree with him and he is willing to go to acts of desperation to try and get them on his site.

I think the fact that if you bring up strength with Harrowmont then he sas that he has no wish whatsoever to be a strong king so that's not even on the agenda is pretty much an indicaiton that Bhelen would be hard-pressed to NOT end up the stronger ruler. I think one of the problems here is that you seem to see deceit in the process as desperation and not just par for the course in Orzammar. Would Harrowmont be desperate for bribing Houses Dace and Helmi into voting for him in the first place?

I think I remember seeing something on the wiki about it. I may be talking rubbish, but I'll post it if I find it.

You probably did. That said, the wiki also at one point assured everyone that if you spare the anvil and choose Harrowmont that Bhelen will be dragged off to become a golem. While I'm sure that some people would love to be able to do that, it's not actually true. Do keep in mind that the wiki is wirtten by people and they can be mistaken or lying. There isn't anything in the game that outright says you would be Harrowmont's heir. People just make that assumption and for all we know, you will be. Of course, who even knows if non-Anvil Harrowmont will be able to get his heir approved by the Assembly...

[Deadmac]

I chose Harrowmont. Regardless about which one you pick, the Warden still gets some type of military support. When I was playing through, Bhelen's supporters seemed too radical.

[LobselVith8]

Deadmac wrote...

I chose Harrowmont. Regardless about which one you pick, the Warden still gets some type of military support. When I was playing through, Bhelen's supporters seemed too radical.

Bhelen promises to give the Warden troops, Harrowmont promises to take it up with the Assembly - there's a difference. And of course Bhelen is radical - he wants to retake the lost thaigs, improve relations with the surface, and give the casteless rights. All Harrowmont does is keep tradition - in other words, leaving the casteless no options but to prostitute themselves to crime or sex. And if the Anvil is spared, Harrowmont sends his golem army to murder the men, women, and children in Dust Town because they protest the new restrictions he places on the casteless. I prefer the reformer Bhelen to the bigoted Harrowmont.

[IanPolaris]

Deadmac wrote...

I chose Harrowmont. Regardless about which one you pick, the Warden still gets some type of military support. When I was playing through, Bhelen's supporters seemed too radical.

That's because the writers of the game didn't want to punish you too badly for picking Harrowmount.  The fact is, however, that Bhelen gives the warden unconditional support and backing for his (or her) treaty.  Harrmowmount does not.

-Polaris