591 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

I don't consider them more utopic than others. But that depends on what kind of society we think is ideal.

I would have preferred to live in the Umayyad Caliphate in Al Andalus, specifically under the rule of Abd Al Rahman III.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 janvier 2011 - 04:08 .

[mousestalker]

I like the modern era. Air conditioning/central heating beats all. Not to mention low levels of infant mortality, nigh universal literacy, cheap entertainment, the Internet, public health, good transportation, a variety of foods available and many many other things.



As for government, people in this modern era get what they deserve. If you want better government, work for it. In ages past, despotic systems rely over much on the capacity of one person. If can arrange to be ruled by Harun al-Rashid, life is good. Generally though, you wind up with a latter day Ottoman (that's a bad thing).

[Raelis25]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

You know what finally pushed me over the edge?

I went into Dust Town and did the casteless kid quest. Learned that Dwarven TRADITION wanted that.
Then I heard that Harrowmont supports tradition like that.

Then I heard that Bhelen did not.

Making me go up to Bhelen first and laugh at the thought that I almost ended up supporting Harrowmont. Dodged ze olde bullet on that one.

Yeah, I felt the same. Even though I have an intense dislike for Bhelen and feel a little dirty every time I support him (which is in every play-through:D), I hate the Dwarven traditions so much more. The thing that pushed me over the edge wad the ranting of that Dwarven merchant that I saved from Jarvia's thugs. How he went on and on about their hatred for the Casteless and how the casteless children are destined to be criminals because they will not be allowed to be anything else. Ugh. So... Bhelen all the way. Even if I think Vartag is a total tool, and Bhelen should have been smart enough to pick someone more intelligent, cunning and polite to represent him.

[Joy Divison]

If I can't live in the modern age with my overabundance of fancy toys and air conditioning, then China under the Sung Dynasty is one of the best bets...if you've got a y chromosome.

So, who asks Behlen to erect a statue of your GW

Modifié par Joy Divison, 22 janvier 2011 - 06:13 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I don't consider them more utopic than others. But that depends on what kind of society we think is ideal.

I would have preferred to live in the Umayyad Caliphate in Al Andalus, specifically under the rule of Abd Al Rahman III.

So would I. The bath houses they built were awesome, and still function today. I've been to two so far: Cordoba and Granada. When I went up to Granada for a weekend, I was surrounded by their architectural legacy everywhere, and to some extent, cultural.

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

Joy Divison wrote...

If I can't live in the modern age with my overabundance of fancy toys and air conditioning, then China under the Sung Dynasty is one of the best bets...if you've got a y chromosome.

So, who asks Behlen to erect a statue of your GW

Always LOL

[Elhanan]

AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote...

So, I'm confused... are you for Bhelen or Harrowmont?

I shall rephrase for clarity:

AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote...

Really I think what it boils down to is, do the ends justify the means? Bhelen does some pretty underhanded things to gain the throne, but what choice does he really have? He's the 3rd heir, so there's really no legit by tradition way to gain the throne and make the changes he believes are for the better of the dwarven people.

Again, that's why even on my Dwarven Noble, I put Bhelen in charge because my character realizes his betrayal of me was not out of hatred of me or Trian or IMO a desire to be on the throne for his own glory, so much as to be the reformer and HELP his fellow dwarves. His betrayal of his family is because he thought neither of his siblings would defy tradition and help dwarven society to get out of the 'dark ages' so to speak. Truly, if Bhelen just wanted the power he would NOT have done the reforms he did.

As Bhelen considers any that do not hold his POV as his lessers, and has proven he is willing to kill any that stand in his way, I shall use one reply to respond to another.....

Nope.

You just chose the man who thinks that a good chunk of society is scum who should not exist.

Who thinks they have no rights, and encourages that belief.

Modifié par Elhanan, 23 janvier 2011 - 04:25 .

[Sarah1281]

As Bhelen considers any that do not hold his POV as his lessers

Really? What is your basis for that? And for that matter, there is a distinct difference between just thinking you are better than anyone who disagrees with you and thinking that certain people don't exist, never should have been born, should have died young if they must be born at all, ect.

[Sarah1281]

And you really can't use one Pro-Bhelen response to counter another pro-Bhelen response. It doesn't make any sense not just in theory but in what the two posts say.

[nos_astra]

For some reason putting Bhelen on the throne strikes me as a gamble that turns out well.

He wants to change the caste system for entirely selfish reasons. He has fallen in love with Rica and wants to be with her, but I don't doubt for a minute that Bhelen couldn't care less about the rest of the dusters.

His family didn't expect him to be fit to rule - at all, and not because he was a philosopher or a scholar or a politician with a vision. He seemed selfish and eager to prove himself, being manipulative and ruthless is not enough to rule a nation.

So where do I get the impression that Bhelen even knows what he's doing other than the epilogue?

And why should my Wardens pity the dusters, who could leave Orzammar for the surface and live a much better live up there?

Modifié par klarabella, 23 janvier 2011 - 01:16 .

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

As Bhelen considers any that do not hold his POV as his lessers

Really? What is your basis for that? And for that matter, there is a distinct difference between just thinking you are better than anyone who disagrees with you and thinking that certain people don't exist, never should have been born, should have died young if they must be born at all, ect.

Perhaps how Bhelen interacts and/or is seen with:
Trian
Warden/ second brother
Harrowmont
Harrowmont followers
Shaperate
Gavorn
Dusters other than those with ties to the Carta; no involvement
and the embracing of tyranny.

As I see Bhelen much as the the post another ascribed to Harrowmont, I have no qualms about using it to reply to the other inquiry.

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

Yeah probably why you confused me so much and you continue to do so.

[IanPolaris]

klarabella wrote...

For some reason putting Bhelen on the throne strikes me as a gamble that turns out well.

He wants to change the caste system for entirely selfish reasons. He has fallen in love with Rinna and wants to be with her, but I don't doubt for a minute that Bhelen couldn't care less about the rest of the dusters.

His family didn't expect him to be fit to rule - at all, and not because he was a philosopher or a scholar or a politician with a vision. He seemed selfish and eager to prove himself, being manipulative and ruthless is not enough to rule a nation.

So where do I get the impression that Bhelen even knows what he's doing other than the epilogue?

And why should my Wardens pity the dusters, who could leave Orzammar for the surface and live a much better live up there?

Actually I think that Bhelen's love for Rica is the smallest part of why he wants to change things for Dusttown.  Bhelen sees a lot of wasted military and political power there that he would like to tap for himself.  As I've outlined before, taking either candidate is ultimately a gamble, but there are leading indicators that say that Bhelen is the better gamble to make simply because he is clearly the stronger leader and is not wedded to a failing system.  More importantly (at least for a Grey Warden), he is resolute about backing you to the hilt against the Darkspawn and Lord Harrowmount....not so much.

-Polaris

[nos_astra]

I might have overlooked something. Is there any other connection to Dust Town other than his relationship with Rica?

[IanPolaris]

klarabella wrote...

I might have overlooked something. Is there any other connection to Dust Town other than his relationship with Rica?

If you are a DC, you get a maddingly incomplete hint from a snippet of converasation between Behrat and Jarvia that strongly implies that Barhrat has some sort of 'business' relationship with Bhelen regarding casteless.

If you doublecross Bhelen, you will find papers in Jarvia's personal belongings (although they may be planted since you don't find then UNLESS you doublecross Bhelen in favor of Harrowmount) that show that Bhelen hired casteless thugs (to kill Trian unless you did that yourself as a DN).

-Polaris

Edit PS:  Also if you listen to the criers, Harrowmount's criers are accusing Bhelen of mass recruitment of castless....as a point in favor of Harrowmount, but I take it the other way.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 23 janvier 2011 - 01:33 .

[Sarah1281]

He wants to change the caste system for entirely selfish reasons. He has fallen in love with Rica and wants to be with her, but I don't doubt for a minute that Bhelen couldn't care less about the rest of the dusters.

What indication is there of this? In addition to making Bhelen come off as really petty and kind of obsessive about her, Bhelen CAN be with Rica without changing anything. She is a noble-hunter and she bears him a son. Little Endrin is born before you even get back to Orzammar. He can't marry her, sure, but she certainly doesn't seem to mind that and they can spend as much time together as he wants. It really seems more like he wants to change the caste system not because of Rica or he really cares about the casteless as a whole but because there are so many of them. Orzammar has been said to have problems finding enough people allowed to fight darkspawn to go out into the Deep Roads and there's that message from the Assembly that you can find that says that part of the reason they keep Dust Town so crappy is because they want the only path of advancement to be joining the Legion because they desperately need the casteless to fill its ranks. They are ALREADY relying on the casteless to fight for Orzammar but they won't admit it. Bhelen seeks to get more of them fighting and they're more likely to join up if they get rights than if they have to hold themselves a funeral before they leave.



He does have some ties to the carta and he used them to get rid of Trian if you wouldn't and to come after the DN. He really doesn't need to have personal connections to Dust Town, however, to see the potential they have for strengthening Orzammar.

His family didn't expect him to be fit to rule - at all, and not because he was a philosopher or a scholar or a politician with a vision. He seemed selfish and eager to prove himself, being manipulative and ruthless is not enough to rule a nation.

Are you talking about in the origin story or when it's pretty clear his father rejects him before his death? For the first, he was the third prince. Third princes pretty much NEVER are expected to rule and in order to pull off his scheme and not have anyone suspect him when he tries to pit the DN and Trian against each other, he spent years pretending to be harmless and talentless.



Afterwards, whichever note from Endrin you get makes it clear that he's having a lot of trouble rewarding Bhelen for killing his siblings for all that Endrin probably did the exact same thing to get his throne. Endrin is also a deeply conservative man and if he caught wind of some of Bhelen's plans for his reign, it would probably be enough to push him over the edge and asking someone else to rule. The idea of giving the casteless rights would probably have given Endrin a heart attack and Harrowmont along with him.

[Elhanan]

I do not believe that Rica is actually a Noble Hunter, though she may treated as one. Hunters seem to be from the other accepted Castes; not the Casteless. And I frown to think of what would have occured had she had a daughter instead of a son. Still, Rica is one of the more encouraging characters, as she seems to survive in spite of the myriad of choices within the game.

That said, watch her turn out to be behind the exotic poisoning within the palace; hand that rocks the cradle and all that....

[KnightofPhoenix]

Elhanan wrote...

I do not believe that Rica is actually a Noble Hunter, though she may treated as one. Hunters seem to be from the other accepted Castes; not the Casteless. .

You're wrong:

Codex
" Strangely, it is an accepted custom for women of the casteless to train in the arts of courtly romance in order to woo nobles and warriors. Any male child produced of such unions is considered a joyous event, considering the relative dwarven infertility, and the mother and entire family of the child will be raised to the caste of her child to avoid
the taint of association. There’s even a name for casteless women who engage in this practice: “noble hunters.” A casteless girl with a pretty face and a kind manner can be the key to raising her family from the poverty of Dust Town."

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 janvier 2011 - 04:44 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...
Are you talking about in the origin story or when it's pretty clear his father rejects him before his death? For the first, he was the third prince. Third princes pretty much NEVER are expected to rule and in order to pull off his scheme and not have anyone suspect him when he tries to pit the DN and Trian against each other, he spent years pretending to be harmless and talentless.

[Sarah1281]

Would noble-hunting even work for non-casteless? The whole reason that the mother and their family are raised up to noble-ish status is because the nobles don't want their heirs having worthless mothers and the mother to have any ties to Dust Town. If the mother wasn't casteless then there would be no need to elevate them, never mind their family. Plus, even the servants have great pride in not being casteless so why would they be willing to take on such a casteless job?

[Elhanan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

You're wrong:

Codex
" Strangely, it is an accepted custom for women of the casteless to train in the arts of courtly romance in order to woo nobles and warriors. Any male child produced of such unions is considered a joyous event, considering the relative dwarven infertility, and the mother and entire family of the child will be raised to the caste of her child to avoid
the taint of association. There’s even a name for casteless women who engage in this practice: “noble hunters.” A casteless girl with a pretty face and a kind manner can be the key to raising her family from the poverty of Dust Town."

Good to know; could not find the entry IG, or under Rica entries in the Wiki. So it seems that there are ways around the extant rules prohibiting work in Orzammar.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Elhanan wrote...
Good to know; could not find the entry IG, or under Rica entries in the Wiki. So it seems that there are ways around the extant rules prohibiting work in Orzammar.

Harrowmont's prohibition of casteless leaving dust town removes that small way around anyways.

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Would noble-hunting even work for non-casteless? The whole reason that the mother and their family are raised up to noble-ish status is because the nobles don't want their heirs having worthless mothers and the mother to have any ties to Dust Town. If the mother wasn't casteless then there would be no need to elevate them, never mind their family. Plus, even the servants have great pride in not being casteless so why would they be willing to take on such a casteless job?

I have not taken the Noble Hunters quest myself, and did not recall seeing brands on them. So when Gorim was rejected for being Warrior Caste, I was under the belief that they simply wished to elevate their station from where they already were, as it would appear a Casteless Hunter would accept any status promtion.

[Elhanan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Elhanan wrote...
Good to know; could not find the entry IG, or under Rica entries in the Wiki. So it seems that there are ways around the extant rules prohibiting work in Orzammar.

Harrowmont's prohibition of casteless leaving dust town removes that small way around anyways.

True; a move I would not mind changing myself sans Golems.

[nos_astra]

Sarah1281 wrote...

He wants to change the caste system for entirely selfish reasons. He has fallen in love with Rica and wants to be with her, but I don't doubt for a minute that Bhelen couldn't care less about the rest of the dusters.

What indication is there of this?

I have a hard time seeing Bhelen doing something for altruistic reasons. Other than the unexpected turn of events in the epilogue I see very little evidence that Bhelen is capable of ruling anything. Connections to the casteless don't mean that much. Noble hunters are widely accepted and Bhelen is a ruthless bastard who needs some dirty work done.

Sarah1281 wrote...
Are you talking about in the origin story or when it's pretty clear his father rejects him before his death? For the first, he was the third prince. Third princes pretty much NEVER are expected to rule and in order to pull off his scheme and not have anyone suspect him when he tries to pit the DN and Trian against each other, he spent years pretending to be harmless and talentless.

Why? What's the point? Why not attempt to impress them with talent and skill?
And why are third princes not expected to rule if the assembly can pretty much make anyone king? That makes no sense.

Modifié par klarabella, 23 janvier 2011 - 05:02 .