591 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

I have a hard time seeing Bhelen doing something for altruistic reasons. Other than the unexpected turn of events in the epilogue I see very little evidence that Bhelen is capable of ruling anything. Connections to the casteless don't mean that much. Noble hunters are widely accepted and Bhelen is a ruthless bastard who needs some dirty work done.

No one thinks Bhelen is doing this for altruisitc reasons. It is a far cry, however, from giving the casteless rights in exchange for military service so that Orzammar will have more people to defend it and thus strengthening his own kingdom and him committing multiple murders including members of his own family because he wants to be able to marry a woman he's already with.

Why? What's the point? Why not attempt to



And why are third princes not epected to rule if the assembly can pretty much make anyone king? That makes no sense.

The Assembly usually honors the king's choice. Endrin had Trian his heir but everyone said he liked the DN better so he might have decided to make his second child his heir. Endrin was a well-liked and greatly respected ruler so if his choice was clear, it would have been respected by everyone Bhelen didn't personally bribe to say otherwise. If Bhelen were seen as talented he risked being taken out by the DN or Trian (or their supporters) and lessened his own chance to take his rivals for the throne out. It's like how the Landsmeet can technically make anyone they want to king and yet it's almost inevitable that they'll choose a Theirin.

[Elhanan]

klarabella wrote...

Why? What's the point? Why not attempt to impress them with talent and skill?
And why are third princes not expected to rule if the assembly can pretty much make anyone king? That makes no sense.

Among Bhelen's other fine qualities, he tends to let others do the heavy lifting, and ride on their successes. In his defense, he is attempting to remain concealed from becoming a target. Since he loses the only fight we see him take any direct action, perhaps he should have altered that plan a little (eg; less Combat Tactics; more Combat Training).

[SOLID_EVEREST]

I picked Harrowmont from the beginning because he was the nicest. Since I always role-play myself, Harrowmont was the easiest choice ever, but I was shocked when I saw the ending. I even wiki'd it, and saw that Bhelen gets a better ending. Instead of trying to prove that Harrowmont was an okay choice when he most definitely was not, we should applaude BioWare for at least giving us one "dark fantasy" quest. One thing I love about WRPGs is the moral ambiguity some weave throughout their storyline. Just face it, Bhelen was a bad choice, and us "good" characters pretty much ruined the dwarves. The same debate goes on about Caesar's Legion vs. NCR. Sometimes the tougher rulers are the ones that are better.

[LobselVith8]

Elhanan wrote...

Bhelen considers any that do not hold his POV as his lessers, and has proven he is willing to kill any that stand in his way. So I use one reply to respond to another.....

Harrowmont is willing to murder everyone in Dust Town with golems because they want rights. I don't see how you can seriously attack Bhelen when he only pulls a coup against two rivals.

I'm curious, did you make similar choices for the Blackstone Irregulars and Favors for Certain Interested Parties?

[Cutlass Jack]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Harrowmont is willing to murder everyone in Dust Town with golems because they want rights. I don't see how you can seriously attack Bhelen when he only pulls a coup against two rivals.

Not if you don't give him the Anvil. Its unfair to judge either one based on the anvil. Its proven that its power corrupts people before you even make the choice. Anything bad they do with it is the Warden's fault. I think anyone who was hitting things from a 'good' angle would likely destroy the anvil. So Harrowmont turns out to be a bad choice, but not nearly as bad as it could have been.

LobselVith8 wrote...
I'm curious, did you make similar choices for the Blackstone Irregulars and Favors for Certain Interested Parties?

Those 'board quests' were so poorly written with so little info there was nothing resembling an informed decison to be made. Just filler that didn't fit the rest of the game really.

But with Blackstone I took down the son (because I preferred the father's vague vision). The Interest Parties decision was largely made for me when I disarmed the bombs. But I would have killed him regardless for attempting to trick me into putting bombs in public areas.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 23 janvier 2011 - 10:35 .

[LobselVith8]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Harrowmont is willing to murder everyone in Dust Town with golems because they want rights. I don't see how you can seriously attack Bhelen when he only pulls a coup against two rivals.

Not if you don't give him the Anvil. Its unfair to judge either one based on the anvil. Its proven that its power corrupts people before you even make the choice. Anything bad they do with it is the Warden's fault. I think anyone who was hitting things from a 'good' angle would likely destroy the anvil. So Harrowmont turns out to be a bad choice, but not nearly as bad as it could have been.

Corrupt? It shows Harrowmont's willingness to murder an entire district of people merely because they want rights that he never wanted to give to them even before he was King.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Cutlass Jack wrote...
Not if you don't give him the Anvil. Its unfair to judge either one based on the anvil. Its proven that its power corrupts people before you even make the choice.

A very big meeeeeeh.

It gives people the power to do what they really want.
The Anvil didn't somehow mind control Harrowmont, or used inception on him to plant into his head the idea that the casteless are worse than scum who should be oppressed even more. This is the real Harrowmont with power. Without that power, he simply can't fully act  on his idiocy (because of the rebellion). With it, he can unleash his stupidity fully.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 janvier 2011 - 10:43 .

[thesuperdarkone]

 All you Harrowmont supporters think he'll make Orzammar this:
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



But the second picture is what his reign will turn Orzammar into. Is supporting a "supposedly" morally good person really worth dooming an entire race or at least causing major damage to it in the long run?

Modifié par thesuperdarkone, 23 janvier 2011 - 11:31 .

[Cutlass Jack]

I must have missed the person holding up drawings from the future in Orzammar. That would have made the whole thing much easier.

[thesuperdarkone]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

I must have missed the person holding up drawings from the future in Orzammar. That would have made the whole thing much easier.

 

Does the whole Civil war thing or Orzammar being permanently sealed off literally from the surface or anyone else ring any bells? Maybe you should reread those epilogue slides

[Cutlass Jack]

thesuperdarkone wrote...

Does the whole Civil war thing or Orzammar being permanently sealed off literally from the surface or anyone else ring any bells? Maybe you should reread those epilogue slides

You're not understanding the thread. Its not the metagame endgame view that's in question. Its making the decision with the knowledge your character actually has at the time.

From the endgame view, I think most people agree on who turns out better.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 24 janvier 2011 - 12:29 .

[LobselVith8]

The criers reveal Harrowmont's favor of tradition and Bhelen's desire to improve the lives of the casteless. The salesman near the entrance to Dust Town reveals that Bhelen will improvide trade (and he reveals that as many people accuse Harrowmont of killing the King as they do Bhelen). And the guard near the Deep Roads mentions that Bhelen will re-take the lost thaigs as King. No meta-gaming required. I do admit that it can be easy to miss out on, especially for a non-dwarven Warden.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 24 janvier 2011 - 12:32 .

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The criers reveal Harrowmont's favor of tradition and Bhelen's desire to improve the lives of the casteless. The salesman near the entrance to Dust Town reveals that Bhelen will improvide trade (and he reveals that as many people accuse Harrowmont of killing the King as they do Bhelen). And the guard near the Deep Roads mentions that Bhelen will re-take the lost thaigs as King. No meta-gaming required. I do admit that it can be easy to miss out on, especially for a non-dwarven Warden.

The only proof that he is going to reform things for the casteless really is the fact that he is marrying one. Thats what the criers seem to base it off. You don't see any other casteless agreeing with Bhelen I mean its like Lord Helmi i think it was said. Neither of them have really left the diamond quater in their life. Harrowmont seems far less likely to kill king endrin, he says he has no ambition for the throne and he has to much respect for The Anscestors, Paragons and Higher ranking assembly members (which there is only one really lol) and Harrowmont is not getting accused for killing the other two Aeducan's while Bhelen is. If your a dwarf noble then you know that Bhelen Framed you / Tricked you and killed your brother. 

It can be confirmed that Harrowmont is definitly a traditionalist and wont go out of his way to make things better for the castleless.. But it can't be confirmed that Bhelen would without metagaming. He is only marrying one, doesn't mean he will reform their whole society.

Bhelen already proves he is willing to lie and cheat throught his quests by the forged notes for the two noble houses and for the one you plant in jarvia's hideout. Whose to say he wasn't just lying to the warrior caste about pushing the line forward to get their vote?

[Sarah1281]

he says he has no ambition for the throne

This proves nothing. At one point in our history it was expected that all politicians pretend that they didn't want their jobs. Harrowmont might look better by claiming that he's just trying to respect everyone's wishes and if Bhelen hadn't largely be suspected of killing off everyone in his way then I'm sure he'd have gone with the 'Well, I don't really want to be king but it's my duty as an Aeducan' approach as well.

[Augustei]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

thesuperdarkone wrote...

Does the whole Civil war thing or Orzammar being permanently sealed off literally from the surface or anyone else ring any bells? Maybe you should reread those epilogue slides

You're not understanding the thread. Its not the metagame endgame view that's in question. Its making the decision with the knowledge your character actually has at the time.

From the endgame view, I think most people agree on who turns out better.

Thankyou for pointing this out, alot of people don't seem to be getting the point of the thread. I just edited my original post to try and make it clear that this is only based around what info can be gathered in-game and not about any metagaming or epilogues.

[KnightofPhoenix]

XxDeonxX wrote...
Neither of them have really left the diamond quater in their life.

A shame that the original version of the game had this cut out. But the IA mod brings back a Dwarf arms merchant and you can ask him about Bhelen. He says Bhelen doesn't mind intermingling with merchant caste and talking to them, which implies that it's out of the ordinary and that he's genuine, at least about his alliance with merchants.

XxDeonxX wrote...
 Whose to say he wasn't just lying to the warrior caste about pushing the line forward to get their vote?

Because warriors have no vote in the first place. The only people who vote are the Deshyrs.

Bhelen may lie, or he may not. Choosing the strong that may or may not reform, is clearly a bettter gambit than picking the weak who we know will not reform (unless you think Harrowmont was lying about being a traditionalist).

[Augustei]

I mean't their vote of confidence... Besides Having the warrior caste on your side would be quite beneficial to your cause anyway

[KnightofPhoenix]

XxDeonxX wrote...

I mean't their vote of confidence... Besides Having the warrior caste on your side would be quite beneficial to your cause anyway

Well the fact that he is trying, where Harrowmont apparently isn't, is a bonus to Bhelen.

[Never]

I just chose Bhelen for the first time, and was very pleasantly suprised. I don't know if I'll ever choose Harrowmont again.

[Augustei]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

I mean't their vote of confidence... Besides Having the warrior caste on your side would be quite beneficial to your cause anyway

Well the fact that he is trying, where Harrowmont apparently isn't, is a bonus to Bhelen.

Trying meaning Possibly Lying though.. Which seems very likely because he already lied when he gave us those documents

[KnightofPhoenix]

XxDeonxX wrote...
Trying meaning Possibly Lying though.. Which seems very likely because he already lied when he gave us those documents

I know, so?
My primary reason to pick him is first and foremost that he knows how to play the political game, while Harrowmont clearly doesn't.

While I think we have reasons to believe that Bhelen's project is indeed genuine (because I fail to see why he would announce his respect for the casteless, no noble would buy it. Too risky not to be genuine), his strength vs Harrowmont's weakness is pretty obvious. 

[Augustei]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...
Trying meaning Possibly Lying though.. Which seems very likely because he already lied when he gave us those documents

I know, so?
My primary reason to pick him is first and foremost that he knows how to play the political game, while Harrowmont clearly doesn't.

While I think we have reasons to believe that Bhelen's project is indeed genuine (because I fail to see why he would announce his respect for the casteless, no noble would buy it. Too risky not to be genuine), his strength vs Harrowmont's weakness is pretty obvious. 

What weakness is evident apart from his guards apparently running away when one of his men is attacked which I dont see as when his second helps him up you can see the guards behind him? and What Strengths are evident for Bhelen? he is resorting to lying because he can see no other way to better himself for the throne. The Speaker at the assembly says they are both neck and neck so his so called strenghs dont appear to be evident.

[KnightofPhoenix]

XxDeonxX wrote...
What weakness is evident apart from his guards apparently running away when one of his men is attacked which I dont see as when his second helps him up you can see the guards behind him? and What Strengths are evident for Bhelen? he is resorting to lying because he can see no other way to better himself for the throne. The Speaker at the assembly says they are both neck and neck so his so called strenghs dont appear to be evident.

- His guards practically deserting him on the streets.
- His champions deserting the fight at the proving and Harrowmont thinking it's a good idea to send the person who came here expecting military support, to deal with that embarrasing situation.
- Harrowmont being on the defensive.
- Harrowmont saying he doesn't want to be a strong king, but a compromiser, also evident from his codex entry.
- Harrowmont saying he'll put the issue of military assistane to the Assembly, when we know he doesn't have to.

vs

- Bhelen's men strongly devoted to him
- Bhelen not really desperate for your assistance.
- Him being on the offensive, neutralizing Harrowmont's support from the nobility and champions.
- Bhelen saying that he will not be a compromiser. Also evident from the codex.
- Bhelen saying he will send assistance without putting it to the Assembly.
- If DN: Bhelen's ability to turn the Assembly on the DN, Orzammar's rising star, is a testemony of political genius.

And lying IS strength in an environment of cuthroat politics. Strength is not only beating people into submission. It's playing the political game and Bhelen clearly surpasses Harrowmotn in that regard, and this is made even mroe obvious with the DN.

Without the Warden, it's clear that Bhelen would have been able to create a debacle for Harrowmont at the provings and remove at least 2 houses supporting him. He was on the offensive, while HArrowmont was on the defensive. Bhelen didn't really need the Warden, Harrowmont did. Without the Warden interferring, the most likely winner would have been Bhelen.

So yes, it's pretty evident. In an environment like that of Orzammar, the person who is on the offensive is the one who has strength. The one desperately on the defensive, is the weakling.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 janvier 2011 - 04:56 .

[Augustei]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...
What weakness is evident apart from his guards apparently running away when one of his men is attacked which I dont see as when his second helps him up you can see the guards behind him? and What Strengths are evident for Bhelen? he is resorting to lying because he can see no other way to better himself for the throne. The Speaker at the assembly says they are both neck and neck so his so called strenghs dont appear to be evident.

- His guards practically deserting him on the streets.
- His champions deserting the fight at the proving and Harrowmont thinking it's a good idea to send the person who came here expecting military support, to deal with that embarrasing situation.
- Harrowmont being on the defensive.
- Harrowmont saying he doesn't want to be a strong king, but a compromiser, also evident from his codex entry.
- Harrowmont saying he'll put the issue of military assistane to the Assembly, when we know he doesn't have to.

vs

- Bhelen's men strongly devoted to him
- Bhelen not really desperate for your assistance.
- Him being on the offensive, neutralizing Harrowmont's support from the nobility and champions.
- Bhelen saying that he will not be a compromiser. Also evident from the codex.
- Bhelen saying he will send assistance without putting it to the Assembly.
- If DN: Bhelen's ability to turn the Assembly on the DN, Orzammar's rising star, is a testemony of political genius.

And lying IS strength in an environment of cuthroat politics. Strength is not only beating people into submission. It's playing the political game and Bhelen clearly surpasses Harrowmotn in that regard, and this is made even mroe obvious with the DN.

Without the Warden, it's clear that Bhelen would have been able to create a debacle for Harrowmont at the provings and remove at least 2 houses supporting him. He was on the offensive, while HArrowmont was on the defensive. Bhelen didn't really need the Warden, Harrowmont did. Without the Warden interferring, the most likely winner would have been Bhelen.

So yes, it's pretty evident. In an environment like that of Orzammar, the person who is on the offensive is the one who has strength. The one desperately on the defensive, is the weakling.

Harrowmonts guard's didn't abandon him in the streets they were clearly there with him when he was helped up.
Harrowmont doesn't say he will be a compromiser until you actually make him King when you ask him "Show them you will make a strong king"

Plus the assembly would have had to agreed to send troops for the Warden.. Thats where the Warriors are coming from... There houses. The only thing Bhelen could sent the warden without confronting the Assembly and asking for their warriors would be to send a bunch of castless which wouldnt be enough because they lack sufficient numbers and are ill armored and prepared.

Sure Bhelen could have sent warriors not of a noble house but then still The warden would not get the numbers he needs.. The Nobles were needed to send as many of their soldiers as possible.

[KnightofPhoenix]

XxDeonxX wrote...
Harrowmonts guard's didn't abandon him in the streets they were clearly there with him when he was helped up.
Harrowmont doesn't say he will be a compromiser until you actually make him King when you ask him "Show them you will make a strong king"

No, they run away before Harrowmont does, leaving his back completely exposed to Bhelen's men. What they should have done is put themselves between Harrowmont and Bhelen and protect him with their lives.
Notice the contrast, when Bhelen walks slowly away, his men wait and then follow him, making sure his back isn't exposed.

And here is Harrowmont's condex:
"Harrowmont is well-known for being an able administrator, and the author of many compromises in the ever-warring Assembly."

That's his career. To compromise.

XxDeonxX wrote...
Plus the assembly would have had to agreed to send troops for the Warden.. Thats where the Warriors are coming from... There houses. The only thing Bhelen could sent the warden without confronting the Assembly and asking for their warriors would be to send a bunch of castless which wouldnt be enough because they lack sufficient numbers and are ill armored and prepared.

Sure Bhelen could have sent warriors not of a noble house but then still The warden would not get the numbers he needs.. The Nobles were needed to send as many of their soldiers as possible.

And how do you know that the Assembly would have agreed to send the warriors?
You have just been shown how divisive and irrational they are and you trust them?
In a time of Blight, they can't even pick their own leader and now you trust them to be cohesive and united on an important question such as a military campaign?
 And with a leader that can't even impose order in his own ranks?

And Bhelen is allied with merchant caste, which means to the nobles patronising them. Bhelen is clearly making backroom deals with this. Supporting the merchant caste means more profit for Noble houses.
So that, plus his men being devoted to him, makes him more likely to force the issue than Harrowmont.