591 réponses à ce sujet

[Elhanan]

Graspiloot wrote...

Yes you are, you are still supporting a candidate who stands for an oppressive system and calling yourself moral.

Actually, YOU called us moralists; not us. And we choose the candidate that has not been linked to kinslaying which is rather oppresive if you live in that family, I reckon. Guess that makes you incorrect yet again, Pollo Loco!

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Elhanan wrote...
Actually, YOU called us moralists; not us. And we choose the candidate that has not been linked to kinslaying which is rather oppresive if you live in that family, I reckon. Guess that makes you incorrect yet again, Pollo Loco!

That family has a long tradition of kinslaying, most of it's members having gained their positions from doing just that.

Plus, putting the "good" of one family over that of an entire city-state/nation is, at the very least, impractical and foolish.

[Elhanan]

Graspiloot wrote...

It shows how you think on these issues. You rather oppress thousands of people than choose someone who is "mean".

And secondly, do you think modern day politicians are clean? They may not have killed, but are far from actually being honest.
Thirdly, who needs politics do be in power. Major companies do not work democratic you know, and the nice moralists never make it to the top there, whereas the reformers have a decent chance.
Finally, Bhelen is not a tyrant, look at Sarahs post above.

We choose someone that lives in the same oppresive society as Bhelen, but does not appear to kill family, froends, and the political oppostion to get the crown.

Second; do not care about modern politics as we cannot discuss it here anyway.

Third; agreed that not all power lies in politics, and economical control can be a key element. Now where have I heard that before, Mary Sue? But as there are some moralists that have done OK, this is a non-issue. *avoiding the whole Your example vs Mine snowball fight*

Finally, the Wiki summary seems to be a source of this issue. If the sunnary is incorrect, I will gladly cease calling Bhelen a tyrant, and stick with murderer, cheat, Nugheaded deepstalker, etc.

Modifié par Elhanan, 24 janvier 2011 - 04:31 .

[Elhanan]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Elhanan wrote...
Actually, YOU called us moralists; not us. And we choose the candidate that has not been linked to kinslaying which is rather oppresive if you live in that family, I reckon. Guess that makes you incorrect yet again, Pollo Loco!

That family has a long tradition of kinslaying, most of it's members having gained their positions from doing just that.

Plus, putting the "good" of one family over that of an entire city-state/nation is, at the very least, impractical and foolish

I am sure Trian, the second brother, Enderin, and any other close family and friends will be so very happy to hear it, not to mention the dead guy first encountered in Orzammar, Harrowmont and his House, etc So I choose to go against tradition, and choose the Reformer in Harrowmont.

Modifié par Elhanan, 24 janvier 2011 - 04:36 .

[MadCat221]

Bhelen is doing exactly what his Paragonic ancestor did many years ago: While the Deshyr bicker amongst themselves as their society rots, Bhelen siezes the reins and gets crap done.



Likewise, centuries ago, while the Deshyr bickered amongst themselves as to which of their Thaigs to save, Aeducan siezed control and sealed off Orzimmar from the rest of the Deep Roads, saving the city from the Darkspawn onslaught.



It's likely neither Aeducan or his descendant Bhelen were nice or blood-free about it. But those dirty deeds had to be done for Dwarven society to survive. The Deshyrs' blind greed made it a necessity.



That's what you get for living in a deadly decadent court.

[Giggles_Manically]

Elhanan wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Elhanan wrote...
Actually, YOU called us moralists; not us. And we choose the candidate that has not been linked to kinslaying which is rather oppresive if you live in that family, I reckon. Guess that makes you incorrect yet again, Pollo Loco!

That family has a long tradition of kinslaying, most of it's members having gained their positions from doing just that.

Plus, putting the "good" of one family over that of an entire city-state/nation is, at the very least, impractical and foolish

I am sure Trian, the second brother, Enderin, and any other close family and friends will be so very happy to hear it, not to mention the dead guy first encountered in Orzammar, Harrowmont and his House, etc So I choose to go against tradition, and choose the Reformer in Harrowmont.

Harrowmont.
the Reformer.
Harrowmont the man who reforms.
Reformer....
As in Harrowmont.

[nos_astra]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Elhanan wrote...
Actually, YOU called us moralists; not us. And we choose the candidate that has not been linked to kinslaying which is rather oppresive if you live in that family, I reckon. Guess that makes you incorrect yet again, Pollo Loco!

That family has a long tradition of kinslaying, most of it's members having gained their positions from doing just that.

Plus, putting the "good" of one family over that of an entire city-state/nation is, at the very least, impractical and foolish.

And how does this endear him to any Warden who is not a dwarf? Why should a knife-ear, mage or a human accept that? Or even think that this is a good way, something that should be continued?

And what other redeeming features does Bhelen have to counterbalance this? (I'm not sure this has been answered so far, he's having a casteless mistress and employing carta thugs, is there anything else?)

Is the Warden blessed with the gift of foresight? A super-educated, enlightened being who can see right through Bhelen's act and detect a capable, strong ruler behind the mask Endrin's envious, ruthless, power-hungry offspring.

I have played a Warden who chose Bhelen, but I really made her a bookworm, someone who was aware of Orzammar's situation and didn't just make such a decision based on gossip and a paragraph in a book.

Modifié par klarabella, 24 janvier 2011 - 04:50 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

XxDeonxX wrote...
Turning Orzamaar into a lands ruled by a dictatorship may pay off in the short term as seen in the epilogue.. But will cause catastrophic failure in the long run.

But supporting a blind oligarchy is somehow better how?

Regardless of what happens to Bhelen's regime, which will inevitably collapse, the reforms put in place can act as a foundation for more. The best example for this is France. Yes, Louix XIV was an absolutist monarch and yes his dynasty didn't last very long after him. But that's not important. What's important is that his reforms (and that of Richelieu and Mazarin) laid the foundations for a centralized state, without which the French Republic could have never been established. Till this very day, modern France's system is built upon its absolutist legacy.

Even if Tyrants don't last, their reforms do. That's what brought Greece into the classical age. Tyrants.

And your allusions to Hitler are epic fail. He arose from a context when Germany was on its knees and when Europe was percieved to be on the brink of collapse and with the USSR spreading its influence via communist parties. Hitler and his irrational idealogy didn't come from a system that brought prosperity and stability. He arose from an environement of pseudo-anarchy and economic / political collapse.

The environment Bhelen is creating is almost the exact opposite. So fail.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 janvier 2011 - 05:09 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

klarabella wrote...
Is the Warden blessed with the gift of foresight? A super-educated, enlightened being who can see right through Bhelen's act and detect a capable, strong ruler behind the mask Endrin's envious, ruthless, power-hungry offspring.

If the Warden can bother to read the codex and puit two and two together, it's pretty obvious that Bhelen is at the very least stronger than Harrowmont.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Elhanan wrote...

 So I choose to go against tradition, and choose the Reformer in Harrowmont.

[nos_astra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
If the Warden can bother to read the codex and puit two and two together, it's pretty obvious that Bhelen is at the very least stronger than Harrowmont.

Stronger in the sense of getting what he wants, yes. But I really don't see how the Warden can possibly know what Bhelen wants.

You can, of course, assume that your Warden had a long, insightful discussion with Bhelen before making the decision.

Modifié par klarabella, 24 janvier 2011 - 05:19 .

[IanPolaris]

klarabella wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
If the Warden can bother to read the codex and puit two and two together, it's pretty obvious that Bhelen is at the very least stronger than Harrowmont.

Stronger in the sense of getting what he wants, yes. But I really don't see how the Warden can possibly know what Bhelen wants.

You can, of course, assume that your Warden had a long, insightful discussion with Bhelen before making the decision.

You have to arrange to talk with both Prince Bhelen and Lord Harrowmount (which means taking a double-cross mission...but you aren't beholden to the doublecross in the end).  Lord Harrowmount promises to ask the Assembly to pretty please send troops, while Bhelen flat out declars by the Mail of his Ancestors you WILL get your troops.  IMHO for a non-Dwarf Grey Warden, the answer is clear.  I am nearly certain I know which one Duncan would have chosen after hearing both and it's not Lord Harrowmount.

-Polaris

[Elhanan]

Just have to get past the entire cheating, lying, forgery thing; easy peasy!

[KnightofPhoenix]

klarabella wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
If the Warden can bother to read the codex and puit two and two together, it's pretty obvious that Bhelen is at the very least stronger than Harrowmont.

Stronger in the sense of getting what he wants, yes. But I really don't see how the Warden can possibly know what Bhelen wants.

You can, of course, assume that your Warden had a long, insightful discussion with Bhelen before making the decision.

In being stronger in getting what he wants, he'll be stronger in maintaining the power that he seeks now.

And we have hints at what Bhelen wants. His crier talking about the casteless as if they should be respected, make no sense from a propaganda point of view unless they have something genuine in them. What does he gain from telling nobles that he thinks the casteless should be respected?

Furthermore, his alliance with merchants gives us an idea that he is promoting trade. Not necessarily because he loves free trade. The more immediate benefit is this:

Codex:
"The nobles do not engage directly in commerce themselves, as that is the
domain of the Merchant Caste, but they do serve as patrons. They invest
in shops or in artisans' work, and in turn reap a share of the profits
as well as a measure of the credit."

It doesn't take a genius to see that Bhelen's alliance with merchants means allying with noble houses who patronise them. And when taking this into consideration, we can see that him talking about the casteless is not complete folly and is likely genuine. Because with his deals with nobles, he feels confident enough to talk about it. Also add that he told the warriors that he's planing to expand. With what army? 2 + 2 
And that's really the two pillars of his regime, that benefit both Orzammar and him.

So even if you think that Bhelen is only out for himself, you can still reach the same conclusion by the leads we have. Saying that Bhelen could have lied and wouldn't do any of this is directly harmful to him. He has the perfect pillars for a regime with his promises, why wouldn't he do them?

But like I said before, I do not pick Bhelen primarily because of what he wants. It's rather because he is strong and Harrowmont is weak. The other things like alliance with merchants, talking about casteless and how they exist, are of secondary importance (but still very important). 

In all aspects, Bhelen surpasses Harrowmont, in game and out.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 janvier 2011 - 05:33 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Elhanan wrote...

Just have to get past the entire cheating, lying, forgery thing; easy peasy!

I don't even need to get past that, those are a plus for Bhelen.

Because unlike you, I look at the world and how it is and work from there. Not how it ought to be, and then work from there.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 janvier 2011 - 05:31 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Elhanan wrote...

Just have to get past the entire cheating, lying, forgery thing; easy peasy!

Which is what every single powerful politician has done since the dawn of time.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Just have to get past the entire cheating, lying, forgery thing; easy peasy!

Which is what every single powerful politician has done since the dawn of time.

You know what's coming next.

Stand against the traditional backstabbing politics!!! Pick someone who doesn't know a clue about how the game is played!!! What could possibily go wrong?!?! Reform evilz politics!

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Just have to get past the entire cheating, lying, forgery thing; easy peasy!

Which is what every single powerful politician has done since the dawn of time.

You know what's coming next.

Stand against the traditional backstabbing politics!!! Pick someone who doesn't know a clue about how the game is played!!! What could possibily go wrong?!?! Reform evilz politics!

<_<
Its like you know....

[Louis_Cypher]

IanPolaris wrote...
Lord Harrowmount promises to ask the Assembly to pretty please send troops, while Bhelen flat out declars by the Mail of his Ancestors you WILL get your troops.  IMHO for a non-Dwarf Grey Warden, the answer is clear.

Because the idea that Bhelen might or go back on his promise or lie to you is unthinkable?  He just lies to other dwarves, he would never think of lying to a Grey Warden.

[Elhanan]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Just have to get past the entire cheating, lying, forgery thing; easy peasy!

Which is what every single powerful politician has done since the dawn of time.

You know what's coming next.

Stand against the traditional backstabbing politics!!! Pick someone who doesn't know a clue about how the game is played!!! What could possibily go wrong?!?! Reform evilz politics!

<_<
Its like you know....

You two should form a team: Allbutt & Costello....

... and Harrowmont for the win!

[Giggles_Manically]

Elhanan wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Just have to get past the entire cheating, lying, forgery thing; easy peasy!

Which is what every single powerful politician has done since the dawn of time.

You know what's coming next.

Stand against the traditional backstabbing politics!!! Pick someone who doesn't know a clue about how the game is played!!! What could possibily go wrong?!?! Reform evilz politics!

<_<
Its like you know....

You two should form a team: Allbutt & Costello....

... and Harrowmont for the win!

Then you should sign yourself into a mental ward for the criminally deranged. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Elhanan wrote...
You two should form a team: Allbutt & Costello....

... and Harrowmont for the win!

You are a much better comedian.

Just now your sentence made me chuckle.

[Elhanan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

...In all aspects, Bhelen surpasses Harrowmont, in game and out.

Harrowmont chooses a better Second.

Harrowmont was chosen by Enderin.

Harrowmont kills less Dwarves in Cut-scenes; leaves fewer witnesses.

Harrowmont bests Bhelen hand to hand in the Assembly, FTW.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Elhanan wrote...
Harrowmont chooses a better Second.

Nope.
One who didn't even bother investigating why the champions are deserting himself. One of them deserted just because someone told him Harrowmont left the race.....wow
Dustin is a lazy idiot who just demonstrated his lord's weakness. Polite, but an idiot nonetheless.

Elhanan wrote...
Harrowmont was chosen by Enderin.

Nope.
Not only do we not know that (the letter doesn't say anything), but Endrin probably became a senile fool, and was a tradtionalist, and so who he picks is irrelevent. Plus the fact that Endrin negelcted his most intelligent son makes him stupid.

Elhanan wrote...
Harrowmont kills less Dwarves in Cut-scenes; leaves fewer witnesses.

Nope.
But manages to make himself look a weakling in the process. Not even capable of self-defense.

Elhanan wrote...
Harrowmont bests Bhelen hand to hand in the Assembly, FTW.

Nope.
Without the Warden, Harrowmont would have been dead meat.
That makes him even more stupid. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 janvier 2011 - 06:11 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Also Harrowmont sends assassins after you as well if you side against him.