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[USArmyParatrooper]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I felt like the choice was similar to the stereotypes of the left and right in US politics. Harromount represented the left, a ruler of compassion and equality while Bhalen was the military hawk with political cunning.

[ejoslin]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

I haven't read the whole thread, but I felt like the choice was similar to the stereotypes of the left and right in US politics. Harromount represented the left, a ruler of compassion and equality while Bhalen was the military hawk with political cunning.

I must say, that is NOT the impression I had at all.  The government types are so different, it kind of boggles my mind to even try to compare them.

but to me, Harrowmont stands for stagnation and comfort of the upper class which most definitely is not what the leftwing agenda in the US is.

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 janvier 2011 - 06:35 .

[wickedgoodreed]

Harrowmont represents the left?! Nooo. He's clearly a conservative who stands for tradition. Nothing about his policies are socially liberal or progressive. And I don't see how he stands for compassion and equality when he only represents the interests of other rich nobles like himself, ignoring or in some cases aggravating the plight of the casteless.

[Cutlass Jack]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

I haven't read the whole thread, but I felt like the choice was similar to the stereotypes of the left and right in US politics. Harromount represented the left, a ruler of compassion and equality while Bhalen was the military hawk with political cunning.

Actually I felt the whole thing was a parody of our last Presidential election. From the criers doing political attack ads, to people on the streets commenting on how the canidate's wife dresses as a basis for their vote. The jokes keep coming.

Then consider the canidates: On one side we have a stodgy old man who represents the old regime...one who follows the way things have always been done, even if they lead his nation into the toilet. On the other side? We have a canidate running on the platform of 'Change.'

Sound familiar?

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 24 janvier 2011 - 06:55 .

[Elhanan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Elhanan wrote...
Harrowmont chooses a better Second.

Nope.
One who didn't even bother investigating why the champions are deserting himself. One of them deserted just because someone told him Harrowmont left the race.....wow
Dustin is a lazy idiot who just demonstrated his lord's weakness. Polite, but an idiot nonetheless.

As opposed to Gavorn who keeps handing hard evidence to someone called a Warden....

Elhanan wrote...
Harrowmont was chosen by Enderin.

Nope.
Not only do we not know that (the letter doesn't say anything), but Endrin probably became a senile fool, and was a tradtionalist, and so who he picks is irrelevent. Plus the fact that Endrin negelcted his most intelligent son makes him stupid

.

But he dood it anyway; of sound mind or not....

Elhanan wrote...
Harrowmont kills less Dwarves in Cut-scenes; leaves fewer witnesses.

Nope.
But manages to make himself look a weakling in the process. Not even capable of self-defense.

But manages to get through the election process unscathed by the cunning Bhelen. Perhaps he just plays a weakling, as this is the tradition.... *chuckles*

Elhanan wrote...
Harrowmont bests Bhelen hand to hand in the Assembly, FTW.

Nope.
Without the Warden, Harrowmont would have been dead meat.
That makes him even more stupid. 

Harrowmont with the Crown; Bhelen and followers not breathing on the floor. I shall again go with the evidence... and Harrowmont FTW.

Modifié par Elhanan, 24 janvier 2011 - 07:15 .

[wickedgoodreed]

Cutlass Jack wrote...
Sound familiar?

Very! 

I have to say though when I first heard Bhelen's political spiel of needing "absolute unity to fight against the fulcrum of true evil" I was immediately reminded of a certain other president's eye-roll inducing use of the catchphrase "axis of evil."

[KnightofPhoenix]

Elhanan wrote...
As opposed to Gavorn who keeps handing hard evidence to someone called a Warden....

That's the way real Dwarven politicians play the game.
I am all for it.

But he dood it anyway; of sound mind or not....

Irrlevent.

But manages to get through the election process unscathed by the cunning Bhelen. Perhaps he just plays a weakling, as this is the tradition.... *chuckles*

Except would have suffered a debacle in the Provings and lost at least 2 houses.
Yes, very unscathed.

But once again, I've gone contrary to my original decision to stop pretending to take you seriously. Naive me. 
Now I'll act on it.

Cool story bro.

[Giggles_Manically]

No no Knight you should have used this:

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The criers reveal Harrowmont's favor of tradition and Bhelen's desire to improve the lives of the casteless. The salesman near the entrance to Dust Town reveals that Bhelen will improvide trade (and he reveals that as many people accuse Harrowmont of killing the King as they do Bhelen). And the guard near the Deep Roads mentions that Bhelen will re-take the lost thaigs as King. No meta-gaming required. I do admit that it can be easy to miss out on, especially for a non-dwarven Warden.

The only proof that he is going to reform things for the casteless really is the fact that he is marrying one. Thats what the criers seem to base it off. You don't see any other casteless agreeing with Bhelen I mean its like Lord Helmi i think it was said. Neither of them have really left the diamond quater in their life. Harrowmont seems far less likely to kill king endrin, he says he has no ambition for the throne and he has to much respect for The Anscestors, Paragons and Higher ranking assembly members (which there is only one really lol) and Harrowmont is not getting accused for killing the other two Aeducan's while Bhelen is. If your a dwarf noble then you know that Bhelen Framed you / Tricked you and killed your brother. 

Harrowmont may seem less likely, but there's no real evidence either way. It's all speculation. As for Bhelen, he's willing to do whatever it takes to become King - and saying he'll provide troops vs. Harrowmont's promise to ask the Assembly to send troops is a significant factor in why it doesn't take metagaming to see how Bhelen is a better choice.

XxDeonxX wrote...

It can be confirmed that Harrowmont is definitly a traditionalist and wont go out of his way to make things better for the castleless.. But it can't be confirmed that Bhelen would without metagaming. He is only marrying one, doesn't mean he will reform their whole society. 

I can only base it on the information provided to me. Bhelen's apparent willingness vs. Harrowmont's evident refusal to is sufficient for me.

XxDeonxX wrote...

Bhelen already proves he is willing to lie and cheat throught his quests by the forged notes for the two noble houses and for the one you plant in jarvia's hideout. Whose to say he wasn't just lying to the warrior caste about pushing the line forward to get their vote?

That was done by his second, VG. Again, it's possible he could be lying, but given that I have limited information, I'd rather go with the canidate who appears to be progressive than the traditionalist who sees nothing wrong with the stagnation that is destroying Orzammar.

[ejoslin]

wickedgoodreed wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...
Sound familiar?

Very! 

I have to say though when I first heard Bhelen's political spiel of needing "absolute unity to fight against the fulcrum of true evil" I was immediately reminded of a certain other president's eye-roll inducing use of the catchphrase "axis of evil."

You know, I didn't think Bhelen calling the blight the fulcrum of true evil as hyperbole.  I think he really really believes that -- as do all people in Orzammar.  If anyone knows the true evil of the darkspawn, it's the Dwarves.

[Sarah1281]

So I choose to go against tradition, and choose the Reformer in Harrowmont.

You know, even in your ideal world where the dwarf Warden can almost single-handedly make all of Bhelen's reforms while clinging to the moral high ground, Harrowmont is in no way a reformer. The best you can say is that he's a status-quo place holder so Bhelen won't take the throne and hopefully someone better could come along after Harrowmont died.

[Sarah1281]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

I haven't read the whole thread, but I felt like the choice was similar to the stereotypes of the left and right in US politics. Harromount represented the left, a ruler of compassion and equality while Bhalen was the military hawk with political cunning.

...You do realize that Harrowmont is the one who believes in strengthening the caste system which is the opposite of equality and will, if given a chance, destroy Dust Town? He is in no way in support of equality and his compassion only seems to extend to those he views as his equals.

[Joy Divison]

Elhanan wrote...
So I choose to go against tradition, and choose the Reformer in Harrowmont.

Umm...

Modifié par Joy Divison, 24 janvier 2011 - 10:18 .

[USArmyParatrooper]

wickedgoodreed wrote...

Harrowmont represents the left?! Nooo. He's clearly a conservative who stands for tradition. Nothing about his policies are socially liberal or progressive. And I don't see how he stands for compassion and equality when he only represents the interests of other rich nobles like himself, ignoring or in some cases aggravating the plight of the casteless.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I remember the Harromont supporter in the Tavern supporting him because he's for equality. I also recall when crowning him suggesting he be a strong king, and he said something to the effect of prefering to be just and compassionate.

[Sarah1281]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I remember the Harromont supporter in the Tavern supporting him because he's for equality. I also recall when crowning him suggesting he be a strong king, and he said something to the effect of prefering to be just and compassionate.

You're missing something. Helmi in the tavern is for equality but Harrowmont isn't. He is supporting Harrowmont because he bought House Helmi's vote and he personally feels that Harrowmont would make a better king. Highly ironic given that Bhelen is the one who ends up improving life for the casteless and loosening caste restrictions thus putting him closer to Helmi's views.

And being 'just and compassionate' towards his fellow nobles has nothing to do with equality.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 24 janvier 2011 - 10:58 .

[Augustei]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...
Turning Orzamaar into a lands ruled by a dictatorship may pay off in the short term as seen in the epilogue.. But will cause catastrophic failure in the long run.

But supporting a blind oligarchy is somehow better how?

Regardless of what happens to Bhelen's regime, which will inevitably collapse, the reforms put in place can act as a foundation for more. The best example for this is France. Yes, Louix XIV was an absolutist monarch and yes his dynasty didn't last very long after him. But that's not important. What's important is that his reforms (and that of Richelieu and Mazarin) laid the foundations for a centralized state, without which the French Republic could have never been established. Till this very day, modern France's system is built upon its absolutist legacy.

Even if Tyrants don't last, their reforms do. That's what brought Greece into the classical age. Tyrants.

And your allusions to Hitler are epic fail. He arose from a context when Germany was on its knees and when Europe was percieved to be on the brink of collapse and with the USSR spreading its influence via communist parties. Hitler and his irrational idealogy didn't come from a system that brought prosperity and stability. He arose from an environement of pseudo-anarchy and economic / political collapse.

The environment Bhelen is creating is almost the exact opposite. So fail.

Actually I wasn't talking about Hitler, if you re-read my post you will see I said someone who suceeded a Reformist who was also a reformist. So fail

[KnightofPhoenix]

That was in the morning, I didn't bother to read thoroughly. Apologies.

Still, if you don't name the example you have in mind, it might as well be worthless.

[LobselVith8]

Joy Divison wrote...

Elhanan wrote...
So I choose to go against tradition, and choose the Reformer in Harrowmont.

Umm...

I'm guessing he'll reform the pockets of the wealthy to be even bigger and narrow the chances for Orzammar to survive as a dwarven kingdom even smaller. Harrowmont, Paragon of the Dwarven Apocalypse.

It does make me wonder how different Orzammar would be with the independent Circle of Magi and the golem armies. Would King Bhelen's plans to re-take the lost thaigs make it unnecessary to get the assistance of the mages and the golems, or do they shift of balance of power in dwarven hands?

[Augustei]

Someone said a few pages back about a mod that restores a dwarf originally in game that gives a good reason to support bhelen. What was that mod again? I mean the thing is, I would love to support Bhelen but in-game there is a lack of reasons why he should. So if you could please tell me the name of that mod that would be great

[Elhanan]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Elhanan wrote...
Actually, YOU called us moralists; not us. And we choose the candidate that has not been linked to kinslaying which is rather oppresive if you live in that family, I reckon. Guess that makes you incorrect yet again, Pollo Loco!

That family has a long tradition of kinslaying, most of it's members having gained their positions from doing just that.

Plus, putting the "good" of one family over that of an entire city-state/nation is, at the very least, impractical and foolish

I am sure Trian, the second brother, Enderin, and any other close family and friends will be so very happy to hear it, not to mention the dead guy first encountered in Orzammar, Harrowmont and his House, etc So I choose to go against tradition, and choose the Reformer in Harrowmont.

Isn't context a wondermous thing?

[Elhanan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That was in the morning, I didn't bother to read thoroughly. Apologies.
Still, if you don't name the example you have in mind, it might as well be worthless.

Careful it ain't raining; with your nose so tilted, you could easily drown.....

But once again, I've gone contrary to my original decision to stop pretending to take you seriously. Naive me. 
Now I'll act on it.

Surprised me, too. If there is one thing you seem to know well, it is ignorance....

Modifié par Elhanan, 25 janvier 2011 - 08:17 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Elhanan wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Elhanan wrote...
Actually, YOU called us moralists; not us. And we choose the candidate that has not been linked to kinslaying which is rather oppresive if you live in that family, I reckon. Guess that makes you incorrect yet again, Pollo Loco!

That family has a long tradition of kinslaying, most of it's members having gained their positions from doing just that.

Plus, putting the "good" of one family over that of an entire city-state/nation is, at the very least, impractical and foolish

I am sure Trian, the second brother, Enderin, and any other close family and friends will be so very happy to hear it, not to mention the dead guy first encountered in Orzammar, Harrowmont and his House, etc So I choose to go against tradition, and choose the Reformer in Harrowmont.

Isn't context a wondermous thing?

Yes, when actually used in a coherent manner.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Elhanan wrote...

Just have to get past the entire cheating, lying, forgery thing; easy peasy!

See? Was that so hard?

[Sarah1281]

I am sure Trian, the second brother, Enderin, and any other close family and friends will be so very happy to hear it, not to mention the dead guy first encountered in Orzammar, Harrowmont and his House, etc So I choose to go against tradition, and choose the Reformer in Harrowmont.

Well, in addition to the fact that even if you find Bhelen too evil to support and Harrowmont not doing anything as a temporary measure after which a real reformer can take power, calling Harrowmont a reformer is still BS. And yes, I've found that whenever people are killed for something they tend to disapprove. Why don't we go ask Jarvia and her people how they felt about having the carta wiped out to protect Orzammar since they were openly terrorizing people.

[Joy Divison]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Someone said a few pages back about a mod that restores a dwarf originally in game that gives a good reason to support bhelen. What was that mod again? I mean the thing is, I would love to support Bhelen but in-game there is a lack of reasons why he should. So if you could please tell me the name of that mod that would be great

That would be the regular game.