591 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Joy Divison wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Someone said a few pages back about a mod that restores a dwarf originally in game that gives a good reason to support bhelen. What was that mod again? I mean the thing is, I would love to support Bhelen but in-game there is a lack of reasons why he should. So if you could please tell me the name of that mod that would be great

That would be the regular game.

That, plus Improved Atmosphere.

And if you aren't capable of picking Bhelen after the list of reasons we gave you, I doubt what a single merchant says will convince you otherwise.

so.....Harrowmont FTEF.

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I am sure Trian, the second brother, Enderin, and any other close family and friends will be so very happy to hear it, not to mention the dead guy first encountered in Orzammar, Harrowmont and his House, etc So I choose to go against tradition, and choose the Reformer in Harrowmont.

Well, in addition to the fact that even if you find Bhelen too evil to support and Harrowmont not doing anything as a temporary measure after which a real reformer can take power, calling Harrowmont a reformer is still BS. And yes, I've found that whenever people are killed for something they tend to disapprove. Why don't we go ask Jarvia and her people how they felt about having the carta wiped out to protect Orzammar since they were openly terrorizing people.

Well as long as taking me out of context could add to your day, as well as your supposed arguements, I guess speaking to the Carta would be fine; maybe preferable. But they ain't breathing either; same as Bhelen.

And I still find it amusing that gossip, rumors, and propaganda are a better source of intel than solid evidence collected personally along the way. But I can understand that facts could be difficult to justify to the subjective fanatics that follow after Bhelen.

[Elhanan]

Joy Divison wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Someone said a few pages back about a mod that restores a dwarf originally in game that gives a good reason to support bhelen. What was that mod again? I mean the thing is, I would love to support Bhelen but in-game there is a lack of reasons why he should. So if you could please tell me the name of that mod that would be great

That would be the regular game.

Because it has the epilogues to help some of them choose....

[Elhanan]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Yes, when actually used in a coherent manner.

And mix up your normal logistical sensabilities? Nay!

Harrowmont FTW!

[Graspiloot]

Yes it is us who think illogically mr Harrowmont-is-a-reformer-and-because-i-didnt-like-epilogue-i-just-created-my-own.

[Giggles_Manically]

Graspiloot wrote...

Yes it is us who think illogically mr Harrowmont-is-a-reformer-and-because-i-didnt-like-epilogue-i-just-created-my-own.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Oh, so now determining strength and weakness politically speaking, as well as the policies Orzammar needs is subjective, but relying on "morality" is objective and with the kid idea that "lying is wrong!"?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 janvier 2011 - 05:00 .

[Elhanan]

Bhelenites = murder, cheating, and criminal activity is justified as it is a mean, cruel world out there, and we just wanna help the poor. Bad nobles! Bad!

Harrowmonteers = better than the alternative; FTW!

And thanks for the memories; flashed on being surrounded by 4th graders....

Modifié par Elhanan, 25 janvier 2011 - 05:19 .

[LobselVith8]

Elhanan wrote...

Bhelenites = murder, cheating, and criminal activity is justified as it is a mean, cruel world out there, and we just wanna help the poor. Bad nobles! Bad!

Harrowmonteers = better than the alternative; FTW!

And thanks for the memories; flashed on being surrounded by 4th graders....

Harrowmont = murders the casteless of Dust Town. Hardly the better alternative. Bhelen can handle Branka with the Anvil and an independent Circle while Harrowmont capitulates to the Assembly.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Harrowmont = murders the casteless of Dust Town. Hardly the better alternative. Bhelen can handle Branka with the Anvil and an independent Circle while Harrowmont capitulates to the Assembly.

No, you are wrong. Harrowmont doesn't lie and he is nice.
Your argument thus has no substance.

All those who rely on material evidence and see the world and how it IS, are obviously 4rth graders. Those who said a few pages back that they don't care about history and reality and that all they are interested in is ethics when being involved in politics, are naturally the mature adults who know exactly how the world functions and thus of course, their choice is better than the alternative.

There is a fine line between being amusing and being a joke.  

[Giggles_Manically]

Your eyes/logic can deceive you dont trust them.

Inhale whatever Elhanan is smoking to see the truth!

[Elhanan]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Your eyes/logic can deceive you dont trust them.
Inhale whatever Elhanan is smoking to see the truth!

At least I am breathing; Bhelen ain't. Harrowmont, FTW!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Your eyes/logic can deceive you dont trust them.
Inhale whatever Elhanan is smoking to see the truth!

Hey, you're right!
Now it all makes sense.

When Harrowmont's guards left their lord's back exposed, that was a show of strength to tell Bhelen that they are not afraid of him. And the reason they were running is because they were very excited to go to the nearest charity organization to donate their money to the casteless.
 
And when Harrowmont's champions are deserting, well that's just Harrowmont saying that he only needs one champion to win the Proving and that less is always more. But since he felt sorry for the Warden who had nothing better to do, he gave him something to kill time. 

And of course Harrowmont's crier saying that tradition is awesome and that Bhelen's desire to change is evil, is in fact a highly elaborate Xanatos Roulette to trick everyone. The mechanisms involving such a lie...oh wait Harrowmont doesn't lie!....

Which brings us to the next point. Obviously, not lying, or cheating, or being mean are the most assured way to rule a society and polity that is marked by cutthroat politics. Surely the dwarves would cease their evilness when the light shines out of Harrowmont's ass and enlightens them.

Thank you Giggles. Thank you.
Now I understood that strength, intelligence, cunning, deception and logic are nothing compared to the power of being...nice.
*sniff*

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 janvier 2011 - 05:47 .

[Joy Divison]

Elhanan wrote...

Because it has the epilogues to help some of them choose....

Indeed.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 25 janvier 2011 - 05:46 .

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Your eyes/logic can deceive you dont trust them.
Inhale whatever Elhanan is smoking to see the truth!

SNIP OF WIN.

That was:

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Bhelenites = murder, cheating, and criminal activity is justified as it is a mean, cruel world out there, and we just wanna help the poor. Bad nobles! Bad!

Harrowmonteers = better than the alternative; FTW!

And thanks for the memories; flashed on being surrounded by 4th graders....

Harrowmont = murders the casteless of Dust Town. Hardly the better alternative. Bhelen can handle Branka with the Anvil and an independent Circle while Harrowmont capitulates to the Assembly.

Yes but all that is in the Epilogue,but we are talking  about who seems better without Metagaming knowlege

[Augustei]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Someone said a few pages back about a mod that restores a dwarf originally in game that gives a good reason to support bhelen. What was that mod again? I mean the thing is, I would love to support Bhelen but in-game there is a lack of reasons why he should. So if you could please tell me the name of that mod that would be great

That would be the regular game.

That, plus Improved Atmosphere.

And if you aren't capable of picking Bhelen after the list of reasons we gave you, I doubt what a single merchant says will convince you otherwise.

so.....Harrowmont FTEF.

Thanks for letting me know what the mod was, just d/l it now.

[KnightofPhoenix]

XxDeonxX wrote...
Thanks for letting me know what the mod was, just d/l it now.

It's a pretty huge mod, but you can always remove the things you don't like/ want.

It's pretty good and I recommend it.

[Augustei]

Elhanan wrote...

Bhelenites = murder, cheating, and criminal activity is justified as it is a mean, cruel world out there, and we just wanna help the poor. Bad nobles! Bad!

Harrowmonteers = better than the alternative; FTW!

And thanks for the memories; flashed on being surrounded by 4th graders....

Lol hey dude your avatar picture is on the first page of google images if you search harrowmon or Bhelen!

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 25 janvier 2011 - 05:58 .

[Augustei]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...
Thanks for letting me know what the mod was, just d/l it now.

It's a pretty huge mod, but you can always remove the things you don't like/ want.

It's pretty good and I recommend it.

Yeah I have a bug where my wardens keep stuff like starfang and the armour are invisible but im not sure if its this or
the armour recolouring mod that I just got as well. Probably the former

[Elhanan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Harrowmont = murders the casteless of Dust Town. Hardly the better alternative. Bhelen can handle Branka with the Anvil and an independent Circle while Harrowmont capitulates to the Assembly.

No, you are wrong. Harrowmont doesn't lie and he is nice.
Your argument thus has no substance.

All those who rely on material evidence and see the world and how it IS, are obviously 4rth graders. Those who said a few pages back that they don't care about history and reality and that all they are interested in is ethics when being involved in politics, are naturally the mature adults who know exactly how the world functions and thus of course, their choice is better than the alternative.

There is a fine line between being amusing and being a joke.  

Harrowmont kills many in Dust Town only if the Warden is willing to help Branka. Answer: Don't
Bhelen kills many even w/o golems, just cause he wants the shiny crown. Answer: Give it to Harrowmont

All those that rely on material evidence kinda should pick Harrowmont; those relying on epilogues may select Bhelen.

As for those that see the world for how it is, and attempt to bind history and reality to a CRPG: across that line perhaps?

Modifié par Elhanan, 25 janvier 2011 - 05:59 .

[Sarah1281]

Yes but all that is in the Epilogue,but we are talking about who seems better without Metagaming knowlege

Not everyone can agree that, with metagaming, Bhelen is the better choice. I mean, I'd say 99% of people CAN agree that the epilogues say that in hindsight Bhelen was better but it's not unanimous.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Elhanan wrote...
All those that rely on material evidence kinda should pick Harrowmont; those relying on epilogues may select Bhelen.

Don't be an idiot, dozens of times, we gave evidence in-game, you just ignore them and not once did you refute them.
The most you said was "Well I don't care about strength when it comes to efficiency. I care about moral strength!" Whatever that means and however that is supposed to matter in politics.

Of course I am not even going to talk about how inconsistent you are being by calling someone who we know in-game that supports a system where a large segment of the population are considered below scum, to be moral (or intelligent), because I don't want to bother.

Elhanan wrote...
As for those that see the world for how it is, and attempt to bind history and reality to a CRPG: across that line perhaps?

It was marketed as a dark fantasy. And you don't even need to do that, just read the codex on Orzammar and see how it is.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 janvier 2011 - 06:06 .

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Yes but all that is in the Epilogue,but we are talking  about who seems better without Metagaming knowlege

I think that's been discussed for several pages now, just a little less than the Templar vs. Mage debates that rage on. The criers, the guard near the Deep Roads, and the salesman near the entrance to Dust Town all provide the Warden with information to assess what kind of King Bhelen will likely be, and the conversations with both of them reveals Bhelen's willingness to send troops vs. Harrowmont's willigness to take the issue up with the Assembly, despite how the treat compels the King (and not the Assembly) to send aid against a Blight.

Furthermore, Orzammar's policies are slowly killing its civilization. The people are dying off, and the stima against the casteless is pushing people to abandon babies in the Deep Roads rather than raise them (as the Warden can see from one particular side-quest). Harrowmont's traditionalist policies will further doom Orzammar while Bhelen is on the right track to re-take the lost thaigs and push forward against the darkspawn. Looking ahead with metagame knowledge now, one can see that the existance of an independent Circle of Orzammar and the golems will be instrumental in helping both the warrior caste and the casteless in furthering Bhelen's agenda to reclaim the lost thaigs of the dwarven kingdoms while Harrowmont is too weak to push for anything more than enpowering the noble caste.

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Yes but all that is in the Epilogue,but we are talking  about who seems better without Metagaming knowlege

 Looking ahead with metagame knowledge now, one can see that the existance of an independent Circle of Orzammar and the golems will be instrumental in helping both the warrior caste and the casteless in furthering Bhelen's agenda to reclaim the lost thaigs of the dwarven kingdoms while Harrowmont is too weak to push for anything more than enpowering the noble caste.

The Circle in Orzamaar will accomplish nothing but an Exalted March against the Dwarves which will inevitably end in Orzamaar's defeat. I mean they are just one little thaig with only a handful of golems and not enough time to make more even if you do side with Branka. Whereas the Chantry is a massive world super power commanding vast armies with several nations under its dominion. And has only really failed one exalted march which was against Tevinter. Orzamaar clearly does not match the Might of tevinter.

So It will be braught to its knees and they will be forced to live like the elves or they will be completely annihilated. This is more likely with Bhelen as he is stubborn and he will most likely not give up his power until the last possible moment.

Harrowmont on the other hand, is a man of compromise and where his abilities fail in Orzamaar's politics they will succeed in human ones. So Harrowmont would be the better choice if the circle in Orzamaar is established.

Even though it would be great if it suceeded.. Even if it is a haven for Maleficarum.