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[Augustei]

ejoslin wrote...

How exactly does the chantry get into Orzammar again? Even Harrowmont is able to seal it off if Ferelden attacks...

And then their surface trade drys up and their econemy fails, Theres mass riots and they loose again. Man these dwarves fail

[ejoslin]

XxDeonxX wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

How exactly does the chantry get into Orzammar again? Even Harrowmont is able to seal it off if Ferelden attacks...

And then their surface trade drys up and their econemy fails, Theres mass riots and they loose again. Man these dwarves fail

In the instance you actually get an epilogue card where Orzammar seals itself off, this is not referred to.  Are you going by game lore or making it up as you go along?

edit;  i doubt Orzammar would even have to be permanently sealed.  they just close those big doors into the mountains while the siege is going on, and after the chantry loses enough men, to death, desertion, or pure lyrium withdrawal, I'm sure they'd be willing to negotiate.

The problem with your theory is that Orzammar is too good of a defense.  The chantry wouldn't be able to get to them to attack.  The dwarves would just have to outlast the siege.

Modifié par ejoslin, 26 janvier 2011 - 02:42 .

[Augustei]

ejoslin wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

How exactly does the chantry get into Orzammar again? Even Harrowmont is able to seal it off if Ferelden attacks...

And then their surface trade drys up and their econemy fails, Theres mass riots and they loose again. Man these dwarves fail

In the instance you actually get an epilogue card where Orzammar seals itself off, this is not referred to.  Are you going by game lore or making it up as you go along?

edit;  i doubt Orzammar would even have to be permanently sealed.  they just close those big doors into the mountains while the siege is going on, and after the chantry loses enough men, to death, desertion, or pure lyrium withdrawal, I'm sure they'd be willing to negotiate.

The problem with your theory is that Orzammar is too good of a defense.  The chantry wouldn't be able to get to them to attack.  The dwarves would just have to outlast the siege.

If the chantry would be willing to risk it, there are other entrances into the city. Also its not really a good defence, those doors can be battered down. Countless other ones bigger then that have been battered down as you see in the deep roads, read in The Stolen Throne etc.

Also The Dwarves have the lower ground and those doors and the hall of paragons is a choke point. Also with the Blight ending the Darkspawn will be attacking the dwarves again and so they will find themselves having to properly divide their soldiers between the Darkspawn line and the invading Chantry. They would have a lack of soldiers and would be forced to Parlay with the Chantry

[Augustei]

Also Im going to change the thread title to correctly fit what the discussion has swayed to.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

[quote]XxDeonxX wrote...


And Failing that, They have influence in nearly every nation in Thedas save 3. They can conscript people into their war, demand soldiers from other nations under their dominion. [/quote]

Um, no they can't. The Chantry might have influence in Thedas, but it can not force nations to supply troops, anymore than the Pope could force nations to provide troops for the Crusades. It just doesn't work that way. The Chantry aren't the Wardens, they do not possess the right of conscription.


[quote]XxDeonxX wrote...

Ferelden may not supply any troops but Orlais certainly would, The Free Marches, Nevarra would be obligated to do so as well. [/quote]

Obligated how? As I said before, I'll say it again, the Chantry can't make anyone do anything. It does not posess that kind of legal power over a monarch or national leaders.

Plus, Orlais and Nevarra aren't exactly on the best of terms. It would take more than an order from the Chantry to make them march together, especially as it would involve invading soverign Ferelden territory. As nevarra and Ferelden have the potential for an alliance based on a mutual dislike/conflict with Orlais, Nevarra would unlikely invade Ferelden alongside Orlais simply because the Chantry told them to.


[quote]They came extremely close to defeating the Tevinter Imperium only falling short by failing to conquer Minrathous. Teviniter's mages numbers are far more then Orzamaar's circle would be, Orzamaar is small and would only be able to house so many mages anyway.[/quote]

With a combined march on Tevinter, they still did not manage to defeat them. An alliance of nations and templars. Again, they failed. I don't care how close they came. They failed, and Tevinter still stands. You place way too much importance on numbers, when history shows us superior numbers mean little in the face of a strong, organized opposition.

[quote]Tevinter has soldiers as well, Of course so does Orzamaar but not equalling the numbers of Tevinter. Not even close[/quote]

I'll say it again: numbers mean little. The dwarves have been far outnumbered by the darkspawn for centuries, and they have held on. The surface nations are no where near as militarily hard corse as the dwarves, since they are not fighting an eternal battle with an unbeatable enemy.

[quote]The Qunari have explosives, grenades, cannons and other advanced technologies.. Regardless of that however, a Templar would be far more valuable to fight a mage then another mage. So their lack of templars does them great disadvantage. [/quote]

I would beg to differ. I know of about 4 mage spells just off the top of my head that are far superior in killing mages than any templar talents. A lack of templars would hardly be a disadvantage for the dwarves. Did you listen to Alistair's conversation about templars? he specifically states that against non-mages, he's just another guy in a metal suit. The templars are only good for battling mages. Beyond that, they are little more than religous drug addicts with weapons.

[quote]Most mages are not a real threat to Templars, because they study the schools of magic the chantry allows them to. Maleficar are dangerous to templars because they have a lack of knowledge of their specific magic.[/quote]

Again, you would be wrong. Mages in the Circle who support the Chantry might only practice magic allowed by the Chantry. But there are many who don't, apostates included.

[quote]Not all the mages in Orzamaar's circle would be maleficarum most would be simple apostates. And Im sure if there was a mass ammount of Maleficarum down there, one of them would be possessed, go insane and on some killing rampage throughout Orzamaar no doubt.. (Hey these things seem to be commonplace in Dragon age. everything goes to hell at the time you really dont want it to, Like during a blight or when your nations being invaded)[/quote]

Again, you forget that a) dwarves are highly resistant to magic and b)maleficarum will become possesed, and the dwarves will have no counter measures. Unlikely on both accounts.

[quote]Yes I am Speculating Numbers, but it is an inevitability that the dwarves. A people with a low population anyway will be vastly outnumbered by the chantry. Who's influence spreads throughout all but 3 of theda's countries.[/quote]

Again, numbers really aren't as important as you think.

[quote]If the anvil wasn't saved, then they wont have many golems. The Shaperate only has a handful. And if you do save the anvil then Orzamaar will find itself lacking numbers even more as bhelen sends his men to claim the anvil from branka. If Harrowmont was chosen as king, Then the dwarves are even more screwed as the surface raids will have Ferelden join the exalted march as well. Regardless of their devistated country they will join it if their people are being kidnapped. The Epilogue even says theres a war with the surface.[/quote]

Even with Harrowmont as king, and a surface war over kidnaping golem subjects, the surface kingdoms STILL can't manage to defeat the dwarves. The most they can do is isolate them further.

If the city were under attack by surfacers, Bhelen would not be wasting time trying to attack Branka. he would take the golems and troops he has and deal with the imminent threat. He's not an idiot.

[quote]Both Kings deny Branka her troops anyway, so her surface raids will be an inevitability regardless of which king you choose. She doesn't have to go to orzamaar to get to the surface. There is an exit right near West hill to the surface Which is quite closeby.[/quote]

No, with Bhelen, Branka is cornered and trapped in the anvil, sealing herself off with golems. Even if Bhelen did withdraw his troops, Branka would still be cornered.

[quote]Nevarra and Orlais dont have a steaming hatred for each other, they just have a mistrust for each other due to struggling for control of the Southern Nevarran territories. The war hasn't continued however, and only seeds of mistrust have been planted by Orlais. And Regardless of them not liking each other, they would have to and probably more then willing to join the march.[/quote]

Um, no they wouldn't. Like the importance of numbers, you grossly overestimate the power of the Chantry. Both nevarra and orlais are ruled by very strong, competant politicians. They would not join forces because the Chantry told them to. They would only do so if there was something bigger to be gained. Which there would not.

[quote]The Chantrys greatest Eastern strength is in Kirkwall. This is the Orlesian chantry. Yet it is watched over by Nevarran seekers - Lead by Cassandra. And because two people have hostile tensions towards each other. Does not mean they will ignore their duty and their obligations. This is evident with The Dalish helping stop the blight alongside the humans.[/quote]

Once again, the nations of Thedas are NOT obligated to march when the Chantry wants them too. And duty and obligation are only relevant to who interprets them as important. Orlais would be unlikely to break the uneasy peace with ferelden just because the Chantry has a wild hair up it's ass. Celene is a pragmatist and a highly devious/competant ruler. She might support the Chantry in general, but it is her nation that hosts their main headquarters.  If the Chantry attempted to force orlais to join the exalted marches, it would be an incredibly stupid move from a political point of view.

The Church could not force Crusades, they can only ask for support. And of course, you forget the political influence of the Grey wardens as well.







[/quote]

[ejoslin]

XxDeonxX wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

How exactly does the chantry get into Orzammar again? Even Harrowmont is able to seal it off if Ferelden attacks...

And then their surface trade drys up and their econemy fails, Theres mass riots and they loose again. Man these dwarves fail

In the instance you actually get an epilogue card where Orzammar seals itself off, this is not referred to.  Are you going by game lore or making it up as you go along?

edit;  i doubt Orzammar would even have to be permanently sealed.  they just close those big doors into the mountains while the siege is going on, and after the chantry loses enough men, to death, desertion, or pure lyrium withdrawal, I'm sure they'd be willing to negotiate.

The problem with your theory is that Orzammar is too good of a defense.  The chantry wouldn't be able to get to them to attack.  The dwarves would just have to outlast the siege.

If the chantry would be willing to risk it, there are other entrances into the city. Also its not really a good defence, those doors can be battered down. Countless other ones bigger then that have been battered down as you see in the deep roads, read in The Stolen Throne etc.

Also The Dwarves have the lower ground and those doors and the hall of paragons is a choke point. Also with the Blight ending the Darkspawn will be attacking the dwarves again and so they will find themselves having to properly divide their soldiers between the Darkspawn line and the invading Chantry. They would have a lack of soldiers and would be forced to Parlay with the Chantry

who exactly would be caught in that choke point?  Not the dwarves.

Modifié par ejoslin, 26 janvier 2011 - 03:01 .

[Augustei]

[quote]Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

[quote]XxDeonxX wrote...


And Failing that, They have influence in nearly every nation in Thedas save 3. They can conscript people into their war, demand soldiers from other nations under their dominion. [/quote]

Um, no they can't. The Chantry might have influence in Thedas, but it can not force nations to supply troops, anymore than the Pope could force nations to provide troops for the Crusades. It just doesn't work that way. The Chantry aren't the Wardens, they do not possess the right of conscription.


[quote]XxDeonxX wrote...

Ferelden may not supply any troops but Orlais certainly would, The Free Marches, Nevarra would be obligated to do so as well. [/quote]

Obligated how? As I said before, I'll say it again, the Chantry can't make anyone do anything. It does not posess that kind of legal power over a monarch or national leaders.

Plus, Orlais and Nevarra aren't exactly on the best of terms. It would take more than an order from the Chantry to make them march together, especially as it would involve invading soverign Ferelden territory. As nevarra and Ferelden have the potential for an alliance based on a mutual dislike/conflict with Orlais, Nevarra would unlikely invade Ferelden alongside Orlais simply because the Chantry told them to.


[quote]They came extremely close to defeating the Tevinter Imperium only falling short by failing to conquer Minrathous. Teviniter's mages numbers are far more then Orzamaar's circle would be, Orzamaar is small and would only be able to house so many mages anyway.[/quote]

With a combined march on Tevinter, they still did not manage to defeat them. An alliance of nations and templars. Again, they failed. I don't care how close they came. They failed, and Tevinter still stands. You place way too much importance on numbers, when history shows us superior numbers mean little in the face of a strong, organized opposition.

[quote]Tevinter has soldiers as well, Of course so does Orzamaar but not equalling the numbers of Tevinter. Not even close[/quote]

I'll say it again: numbers mean little. The dwarves have been far outnumbered by the darkspawn for centuries, and they have held on. The surface nations are no where near as militarily hard corse as the dwarves, since they are not fighting an eternal battle with an unbeatable enemy.

[quote]The Qunari have explosives, grenades, cannons and other advanced technologies.. Regardless of that however, a Templar would be far more valuable to fight a mage then another mage. So their lack of templars does them great disadvantage. [/quote]

I would beg to differ. I know of about 4 mage spells just off the top of my head that are far superior in killing mages than any templar talents. A lack of templars would hardly be a disadvantage for the dwarves. Did you listen to Alistair's conversation about templars? he specifically states that against non-mages, he's just another guy in a metal suit. The templars are only good for battling mages. Beyond that, they are little more than religous drug addicts with weapons.

[quote]Most mages are not a real threat to Templars, because they study the schools of magic the chantry allows them to. Maleficar are dangerous to templars because they have a lack of knowledge of their specific magic.[/quote]

Again, you would be wrong. Mages in the Circle who support the Chantry might only practice magic allowed by the Chantry. But there are many who don't, apostates included.

[quote]Not all the mages in Orzamaar's circle would be maleficarum most would be simple apostates. And Im sure if there was a mass ammount of Maleficarum down there, one of them would be possessed, go insane and on some killing rampage throughout Orzamaar no doubt.. (Hey these things seem to be commonplace in Dragon age. everything goes to hell at the time you really dont want it to, Like during a blight or when your nations being invaded)[/quote]

Again, you forget that a) dwarves are highly resistant to magic and b)maleficarum will become possesed, and the dwarves will have no counter measures. Unlikely on both accounts.

[quote]Yes I am Speculating Numbers, but it is an inevitability that the dwarves. A people with a low population anyway will be vastly outnumbered by the chantry. Who's influence spreads throughout all but 3 of theda's countries.[/quote]

Again, numbers really aren't as important as you think.

[quote]If the anvil wasn't saved, then they wont have many golems. The Shaperate only has a handful. And if you do save the anvil then Orzamaar will find itself lacking numbers even more as bhelen sends his men to claim the anvil from branka. If Harrowmont was chosen as king, Then the dwarves are even more screwed as the surface raids will have Ferelden join the exalted march as well. Regardless of their devistated country they will join it if their people are being kidnapped. The Epilogue even says theres a war with the surface.[/quote]

Even with Harrowmont as king, and a surface war over kidnaping golem subjects, the surface kingdoms STILL can't manage to defeat the dwarves. The most they can do is isolate them further.

If the city were under attack by surfacers, Bhelen would not be wasting time trying to attack Branka. he would take the golems and troops he has and deal with the imminent threat. He's not an idiot.

[quote]Both Kings deny Branka her troops anyway, so her surface raids will be an inevitability regardless of which king you choose. She doesn't have to go to orzamaar to get to the surface. There is an exit right near West hill to the surface Which is quite closeby.[/quote]

No, with Bhelen, Branka is cornered and trapped in the anvil, sealing herself off with golems. Even if Bhelen did withdraw his troops, Branka would still be cornered.

[quote]Nevarra and Orlais dont have a steaming hatred for each other, they just have a mistrust for each other due to struggling for control of the Southern Nevarran territories. The war hasn't continued however, and only seeds of mistrust have been planted by Orlais. And Regardless of them not liking each other, they would have to and probably more then willing to join the march.[/quote]

Um, no they wouldn't. Like the importance of numbers, you grossly overestimate the power of the Chantry. Both nevarra and orlais are ruled by very strong, competant politicians. They would not join forces because the Chantry told them to. They would only do so if there was something bigger to be gained. Which there would not.

[quote]The Chantrys greatest Eastern strength is in Kirkwall. This is the Orlesian chantry. Yet it is watched over by Nevarran seekers - Lead by Cassandra. And because two people have hostile tensions towards each other. Does not mean they will ignore their duty and their obligations. This is evident with The Dalish helping stop the blight alongside the humans.[/quote]

Once again, the nations of Thedas are NOT obligated to march when the Chantry wants them too. And duty and obligation are only relevant to who interprets them as important. Orlais would be unlikely to break the uneasy peace with ferelden just because the Chantry has a wild hair up it's ass. Celene is a pragmatist and a highly devious/competant ruler. She might support the Chantry in general, but it is her nation that hosts their main headquarters.  If the Chantry attempted to force orlais to join the exalted marches, it would be an incredibly stupid move from a political point of view.

The Church could not force Crusades, they can only ask for support. And of course, you forget the political influence of the Grey wardens as well.







[/quote]
[/quote]

I Talked about Nevarra and Orlais in a previous post, refer to that for why they would work togeather.

Also where does it state it was an Alliance of Nations fighting against Tevinter? Orlais could have been standing alone against them

You keep saying numbers mean little, But they still do make a difference even if a minor one. ESPECIALLY if you have a choke point, higher ground and your enemy is forced to fight on two fronts. Then you have the advantage as I keep pointing out. yes the dwarves have been fighting the darkspawn for centries and even fighted amongst themselves to a far lesser extent but they havnt done both that and fought a unified army at the same time on another front.

And no im not wrong, If they practice a magic not permitted by the chantry that makes them Maleficar which I did say would be a threat to templars in my post. Majority of mages however are not Maleficar, Nor Apostates. Most mages belong to the circle who are taught what the templars allow them to be tought.

Not all demons fight with magic, One of the maleficar could be possessed by a pride demon and it will just smash its way through its ranks. And I am aware that that isn't really likely that point was a joke as I said that everything goes to hell at the worst possible time for people in thedas. Like during a blight or when they are being invaded.

Again, I know numbers dont count for much but they make a difference none the less.. All those numbers are trainers soldiers with Alot in their favor. The choke point, Higher ground and enemy disadvantages of having to fight on two fronts.

Nevarra and Orlais have joined forces before. troops, Branka would still be cornered.
Nevarra
and Orlais dont have a steaming hatred for each other, they just have a
mistrust for each other due to struggling for control of the Southern
Nevarran territories. The war hasn't continued however, and only seeds
of mistrust have been planted by Orlais.

and even if the nations of thedas dont have to join the march, The forces of Orlais would suffice in defeating the dwarves. One because they are the most powerful nation in thedas, Two because they would join the march because Orlais essentially is the chantry. and three because of the countless advantages they have that I keep mentioning

[Augustei]

ejoslin wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

How exactly does the chantry get into Orzammar again? Even Harrowmont is able to seal it off if Ferelden attacks...

And then their surface trade drys up and their econemy fails, Theres mass riots and they loose again. Man these dwarves fail

In the instance you actually get an epilogue card where Orzammar seals itself off, this is not referred to.  Are you going by game lore or making it up as you go along?

edit;  i doubt Orzammar would even have to be permanently sealed.  they just close those big doors into the mountains while the siege is going on, and after the chantry loses enough men, to death, desertion, or pure lyrium withdrawal, I'm sure they'd be willing to negotiate.

The problem with your theory is that Orzammar is too good of a defense.  The chantry wouldn't be able to get to them to attack.  The dwarves would just have to outlast the siege.

If the chantry would be willing to risk it, there are other entrances into the city. Also its not really a good defence, those doors can be battered down. Countless other ones bigger then that have been battered down as you see in the deep roads, read in The Stolen Throne etc.

Also The Dwarves have the lower ground and those doors and the hall of paragons is a choke point. Also with the Blight ending the Darkspawn will be attacking the dwarves again and so they will find themselves having to properly divide their soldiers between the Darkspawn line and the invading Chantry. They would have a lack of soldiers and would be forced to Parlay with the Chantry

who exactly would be caught in that choke point?  Not the dwarves.

With the lower ground and lack of troops from A) Having to fight on two fronts and  A general lack of troops anyway because they are a low population race. Then yeah the dwarves would suffer from the choke point.

[Augustei]

Just changed the thread title and original post btw. Just letting you all know

[Sarah1281]

And Im sure if there was a mass ammount of Maleficarum down there, one of them would be possessed, go insane and on some killing rampage throughout Orzamaar no doubt.. (Hey these things seem to be commonplace in Dragon age. everything goes to hell at the time you really dont want it to, Like during a blight or when your nations being invaded)

Why are the blood mages more vulnerable to possession again?

And no im not wrong, If they practice a magic not permitted by the chantry that makes them Maleficar which I did say would be a threat to templars in my post. Majority of mages however are not Maleficar, Nor Apostates. Most mages belong to the circle who are taught what the templars allow them to be tought.

Yes, you are wrong. Maleficar are NOT mages that practice magic the Chantry does not approve of. They are mages that practice blood magic. Surely you don't think that that's the ONLY branch of magic the Chantry doesn't approve of?

Nevarra and Orlais have joined forces before. troops, Branka would still be cornered.

Nevarra

and Orlais dont have a steaming hatred for each other, they just have a

mistrust for each other due to struggling for control of the Southern

Nevarran territories. The war hasn't continued however, and only seeds

of mistrust have been planted by Orlais.

Because a ceasefire automatically means they'd jump at the chance to be allies? You are right that both countries are Andrastian. Just the same, you REALLY haven't explained why they would support the Chantry in this mad endeavor that no one would really get anything out of.

and even if the nations of thedas dont have to join the march, The forces of Orlais would suffice in defeating the dwarves. One because they are the most powerful nation in thedas, Two because they would join the march because Orlais essentially is the chantry. and three because of the countless advantages they have that I keep mentioning

See, the fact that 'Orlais is essentially the Chantry' is an interesting one. Say Celene thinks that trying to invade Orzammar and risking another war with Ferelden since the entrance is in Ferelden and they can't sneak an army there as well as losing their precious lyrium is a stupid idea. She will not support it. Will the Divine REALLY declare an Exalted March if the nation its based in wants nothing to do with it? Likely, she'd consult Celene to see if she'd have support before doing anything. And being the most powerful nation in Thedas didn't help it defeat the Tevinter...

With the lower ground and lack of troops from A) Having to fight on two fronts and A general lack of troops anyway because they are a low population race. Then yeah the dwarves would suffer from the choke point

That's not really explaining anything. And why would they have to fight on two fronts? There are occasional expeditions to the Deep Roads but most of the darkspawn fighting is done by the Legion which isn't a part of the Orzammar military. Really, the dwarves just have to wait for the templars to run out of lyrium and they're useless. That would cause so many problems and probably reveal that templars are lyrium addicts which would really destroy anyone's motivation to join and, again, is it really worth it over a few mages? The Chantry also CONTEMPLATES an Exalted March over Brother Burkel's death but I still doubt anything comes of it.

[Augustei]

Morrigan was catagorised as Maleficar for being a shapeshifter

from Dragon age wiki

"A maleficar is a mage who uses the forbidden arts, including—but not solely restricted to—blood magic. A known maleficar is slain on sight by templars."

And yes the Legion of the dead fights the darkspawn outside the held darkspawn line, But the warriors caste fights the darkspawn at that line and is charged with holding them there. Thats why the soldier who isn't Legion of the dead at the entrace to the deeproads says "Bhelen says that we will move up the darkspawn line if he is elected"

So the warrior caste is charged with holding back the darkspawn and with the blight over, all the darkspawn will head back to the deeproads and they will have to continue fighting the darkspawn and struggling to hold the line like they always do.. While dealing with a continued revolt.. While also dealing with an invading army

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 26 janvier 2011 - 03:37 .

[Sarah1281]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Morrigan was catagorised as Maleficar for being a shapeshifter

Lovely that you just ignored most of my post to focus on that.

[Augustei]

hit submit by accident..

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

XxDeonxX wrote...


I Talked about Nevarra and Orlais in a previous post, refer to that for why they would work togeather.

Reasons which were highly unlikely.

Also where does it state it was an Alliance of Nations fighting against Tevinter? Orlais could have been standing alone against them

If the Chantry calls a major exalted march like it did 4 times against Tevinter, it is more than just templars (who are too few to really to comprise a big enough army to do it alone) and troops from multiple nations. Orlais would be highly unlikely to commit it's entire force alone, or even most of it. Not with celene in charge.

You keep saying numbers mean little, But they still do make a difference even if a minor one. ESPECIALLY if you have a choke point, higher ground and your enemy is forced to fight on two fronts. Then you have the advantage as I keep pointing out. yes the dwarves have been fighting the darkspawn for centries and even fighted amongst themselves to a far lesser extent but they havnt done both that and fought a unified army at the same time on another front.

You keep bringing up this choke point as if it were a disadvantage to the dwarves. It is not. It is an advantage in their favor. It would be the surface armies at a major disadvantage, because they are the ones trying to invade. Higher ground means nothing when you are fighting a kingdom that is underground in the first place. You seem to forget the major geographical differences are in favor of the dwarves. Even if it did matter, there is no evidence that the dwarves are on lower ground. The gates open directly into the mountain side, and we know some quarters (like the diamond qaurter) are higher up than places like Dust Town.

A Chantry army would hardly be unified, especially with the templars going through withdrawals. If you payed attention to game lore, you would know that withdrawls from lyrium are extremely debilitating and turn templars into drooling idiots incapable of coherent thought, let alone organized assault.

And no im not wrong, If they practice a magic not permitted by the chantry that makes them Maleficar which I did say would be a threat to templars in my post. Majority of mages however are not Maleficar, Nor Apostates. Most mages belong to the circle who are taught what the templars allow them to be tought.

And again, you are wrong. We do not know the numbers of apostates living outside of Chantry rule, but they could well outnumber the circle. The circle is composed of mages they actually managed to find and bring back. There are countless others who never do, who managed to stay hidden, or simply do not care about the Chantry.

Most mages probably don't share the Chantry's asbsolutist paranoia over "forbidden" magic, and probabkly practice alot of forms of magic that the Chantry might deem bad, but they themselves see no problems with. Morrigan even tells you there are a multitude of magic types that are practiced outside of the Circle and Chantry.

Not all demons fight with magic, One of the maleficar could be possessed by a pride demon and it will just smash its way through its ranks. And I am aware that that isn't really likely that point was a joke as I said that everything goes to hell at the worst possible time for people in thedas. Like during a blight or when they are being invaded.

And like the templars in the circle. The templars are not as great at fighting "maleficars" if they keep getting caught with their pants down and annulling circles throughout Thedas every 40 or so years.

Again, I know numbers dont count for much but they make a difference none the less.. All those numbers are trainers soldiers with Alot in their favor. The choke point, Higher ground and enemy disadvantages of having to fight on two fronts.

All factors in the dwarves favor. They are better trained, the choke point is THEIRS to command, and they are united in defending their homeland and culture from invaders. The surface nations are not as great as you think. Their training is no where near the level and skill of the dwarves, part of their army is addicted to a substance only dwarves can mine and refine, and higher ground is irrelevant when discussing a surface invasion into an underground fortress.

not to mention superior technology of the dwarves. Numbers here mean little. Many countries in hisotry were small compared to their conquests, but manage to completely conquor and devestate their enemies with little trouble because they were both technologically superior and better trained.

Nevarra and Orlais have joined forces before. troops, Branka would still be cornered.
Nevarra
and Orlais dont have a steaming hatred for each other, they just have a
mistrust for each other due to struggling for control of the Southern
Nevarran territories. The war hasn't continued however, and only seeds
of mistrust have been planted by Orlais.

In politics, it is far more than that. Both are evenly matched nations in an uneasy truce, for the moment. truces are always temporary things. They would need something major and pressing to get both armies to fight with each other than the Chantry commanding it. There is no advantage for Orlais or Nevarra to invade attack Orzammar. What do they get out of it? Nothing compared to what they would lose.

and even if the nations of thedas dont have to join the march, The forces of Orlais would suffice in defeating the dwarves. One because they are the most powerful nation in thedas, Two because they would join the march because Orlais essentially is the chantry. and three because of the countless advantages they have that I keep mentioning

No, they would not. If orlais stepped foot into ferelden without permission (which is highly unlikely they would get permission) they would be starting a War with Ferelden as well as the dwarves. 

And I do not see Ferelden ever letting in foreign armies to fight for the Chantry against the dwarves, when there are far more more reasons not to.

[Augustei]

So because they live underground, when an assaulting enemy has the higher ground its in their favor? That doesn't make any sense at all. With Lower ground they are far more likely to be overwhealmed and it will put more force behind the chantry soldiers. The Dwarves have nowhere near as many soldiers as they have to devide them between their two lines. Their soldiers would be to farspread and incapable of making a defensive or assaulting line. The only greater technology they have is golems of which they have few.



When they outnumber and have as many advantages on the enemy as they do, Commiting only their countries force still has a good chance of being sucessful.



The Ferelden thing would be a problem yes, But they are devistated by war and could do little to oppose the chantry with most of the nobles armies having died at ostagar, many more at denerim and the royal coffers most likely depleted from having to rebuild.



Its not like as soon as they declare the March their lyrium resources will be gone instantly. They would have enough Lyrium to last them a while. And even if they did, then they need not use their templars but simply the soldiers of Orlais.



Also No, all factors are certainly not in the dwarves favor.. The choke point isn't theirs because they are the inferior force, In both numbers and in other factors, such as the fact they they have the lower ground. Which certainly isn't something in their favor, there is not a single point for why It would be. Having the lower ground is not a good thing.



and yes majority mages are under templar rule... Or dead. Those hiding in the forests and mountains are far inferior in number. The chances of them unifying is also very unlikely. The Countries of thedas, The Andrastean countries of thedas. have only a few forests and mountains which remain unexplored. The Dalish mages wouldn't go to Orzamaar's circle. they would stay with their clan, The dragon cults would remain with their cults, the barbarian mages would remain with their tribes.

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

They came extremely close to defeating the Tevinter Imperium only falling short by failing to conquer Minrathous. Teviniter's mages numbers are far more then Orzamaar's circle would be, Orzamaar is small and would only be able to house so many mages anyway.

The Dales came extremely close to defeating Orlais until the other Andrastian nations got involved and aided them. That won't be the case here. Dwarves have fought against the darkspawn all their lives, and they're used to dealing with larger numbers. Add in how the mages have ranged and powerful magic, and the golems are incredibly resilent, and there are three different types of fighters who can deal with a contingent of templars. As for the willingness of the Chantry to attack Orzammar, I honestly don't see it. The dwarves are the ones who deal with the darkspawn while everyone else forgets about them, and I highly doubt that any Andrastian nation wants to devote the resources and manpower to reducing darkspawn numbers in the Deep Roads, not to mention their inability to mine lyrium because they lack the "immunity" that the Stone-born dwarves have.
In addition, the Chantry currently controls the lyrium trade with the dwarves, so I don't see why they would risk that. I'm certain that the Imperial Chantry or another nation (like the Orlesian rival Neverra) would love to supplant Andrastian Chantry as the main and only surface supplier for the dwarves simply to change the balance of power in their favor. It would be a complete disaster for the Andrastian Chantry. Why risk so much? I don't see how a coalition of dwarves, golems, and mages would fall against the templars where the Dalish elves alone were succeeding and only fell because the other human nations got involved.

XxDeonxX wrote...

Tevinter has soldiers as well, Of course so does Orzamaar but not equalling the numbers of Tevinter. Not even close

As for the failed Exalted Marches against Tevinter - the Imperial Chantry was a nation that couldn't be closed off with a large door made with dwarven architecture, the kind that's likely virtually impenetrable to any kind of offensive the Andrastian Chantry could pull off. They'd also need to contend with the dwarven warriors, the mages, and the golems if the templars were to engage them in battle. Mages fighting alongside dwarves and golems, mind you. You might think it's easy when it's one-on-one, not when it's dwarves, golems, and mages versus templars.

XxDeonxX wrote...

The Qunari have explosives, grenades, cannons and other advanced technologies.. Regardless of that however, a Templar would be far more valuable to fight a mage then another mage. So their lack of templars does them great disadvantage.

The main reason the Chantry won wasn't because of their templars, but because of the Circle of Magi. Feel free to read the Genitivi written codex and see how the New Exalted Marches turned the tide against the Qunari because the mages were able to deal with their advanced technology. I don't see how the Chantry would have any advantage against the dwarven kingdom armed with its own Circle of Magi.
Also, Orzammar can only be accessed from the surface by two massive sets of doors made with dwarven architecture, the kind that is able to keep out the myraid of darkspawn attacking Vigil's Keep in Awakening and can keep Bhelen's forces out of Caridin's fortress when it turns out that Branka doesn't want to make golems solely for the King. The Chantry isn't as technologically advanced as the Qunari, so I don't see how they could realistically even penetrate their fortress (especially since they're unable to if Harrowmont is King and the Anvil is saved). There's no reason not to assume that it's the same kind of material that's used in Orzammar proper to keep out the darkspawn, that's kept Orzammar from being beseigned by the multitude of darkspawn armies in the Deep Roads.

XxDeonxX wrote...
Most mages are not a real threat to Templars, because they study the schools of magic the chantry allows them to. Maleficar are dangerous to templars because they have a lack of knowledge of their specific magic.

I don't see how you can seriously think that templars can simply walk all over mages with little effort, especially if they are allied with the battle hardened dwarven warriors and the resilent golem soldiers. Their ability to dispel magic isn't going to mean much of anything when the golems pick them up and crush their skulls...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Not all the mages in Orzamaar's circle would be maleficarum most would be simple apostates. And Im sure if there was a mass ammount of Maleficarum down there, one of them would be possessed, go insane and on some killing rampage throughout Orzamaar no doubt.. (Hey these things seem to be commonplace in Dragon age. everything goes to hell at the time you really dont want it to, Like during a blight or when your nations being invaded)

Or, like Rivain, the Dalish elves, and Haven, mages don't need drug addicts watching over them to govern themselves... but this isn't the place for that discussion. There's no reason to assume mages will automatically turn into abominations simply because there's no Chantry oversight (especially when so many codex entries show the reverse), so let's not go there.

XxDeonxX wrote...

Yes I am Speculating Numbers, but it is an inevitability that the dwarves. A people with a low population anyway will be vastly outnumbered by the chantry. Who's influence spreads throughout all but 3 of theda's countries.

So the templars will abandon their posts in the various Andrastian nations, their positions lording over the mages, and they will head to the Frostback Mountains in the vain hope of conquering Orzammar, their only source of lyrium throughout Thedas? It's not that I doubt the Divine being stupid enough to do something like this (since Divine Ambrosia II wanted to declare an Exalted March on her own cathedral because of a nonviolent protest done by the mages - which lead to the segregation of mages from society) but I don't seriously see how the templars would win. It would be like Dune and the Spice - the dwarves are the ones holding all the cards here.

XxDeonxX wrote...

If the anvil wasn't saved, then they wont have many golems. The Shaperate only has a handful. And if you do save the anvil then Orzamaar will find itself lacking numbers even more as bhelen sends his men to claim the anvil from branka. If Harrowmont was chosen as king, Then the dwarves are even more screwed as the surface raids will have Ferelden join the exalted march as well. Regardless of their devistated country they will join it if their people are being kidnapped. The Epilogue even says theres a war with the surface.

Let's assume the Anvil was saved and Bhelen was chosen to be King of Orzammar because Harrowmont dooms Orzammar from the word go without an Exalted March. However, even an inept King like Harrowmont can keep the surface world from penetrating Orzammar's kingdom, so that doesn't really work in your favor.

XxDeonxX wrote...

Both Kings deny Branka her troops anyway, so her surface raids will be an inevitability regardless of which king you choose. She doesn't have to go to orzamaar to get to the surface. There is an exit right near West hill to the surface Which is quite closeby.

You're confusing Bhelen with Harrowmont; Bhelen finds out that Branka won't make golems exclusively for him, and then tries to have a siege into her fortress. However, it's impenetrable (because of dwarven architecture) so despite it being centuries old, it's impossible for his men to breach. I can assure you that a war against the surface will drive Branka to have golems prevent the surface from conquering Orzammar, however; her desire to restore the glory of her people is apparent in A Paragon of Her Kind.

XxDeonxX wrote...

Nevarra and Orlais dont have a steaming hatred for each other, they just have a mistrust for each other due to struggling for control of the Southern Nevarran territories. The war hasn't continued however, and only seeds of mistrust have been planted by Orlais. And Regardless of them not liking each other, they would have to and probably more then willing to join the march.

Nevarra took territory from Orlais, and Orlais is trying to get it back. I don't see how Nevarra would fall into line behind Orlais for any reason any more than Ferelden would. In fact, why would Empress Celene I even agree to this? I don't see her sending troops into Ferelden territory when the ruler of Ferelden handed over the arling of Amaranthine to the Grey Wardens.

XxDeonxX wrote...

The Chantrys greatest Eastern strength is in Kirkwall. This is the Orlesian chantry. Yet it is watched over by Nevarran seekers - Lead by Cassandra. And because two people have hostile tensions towards each other. Does not mean they will ignore their duty and their obligations. This is evident with The Dalish helping stop the blight alongside the humans.

Kirkwall, where they also have their own Circle of Magi? Yeah, I can imagine that's going to go over fairly well...

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

[quote]XxDeonxX wrote...

So because they live underground, when an assaulting enemy has the higher ground its in their favor? That doesn't make any sense at all. With Lower ground they are far more likely to be overwhealmed and it will put more force behind the chantry soldiers. The Dwarves have nowhere near as many soldiers as they have to devide them between their two lines. Their soldiers would be to farspread and incapable of making a defensive or assaulting line. The only greater technology they have is golems of which they have few.[quote]

They have far more than golems in terms of technology. They have better arms and armor, better smiths and inventors. We see bits and pieces of superior dwarven technology throught the game. They have industry on a scale that the surface does not. The surface is pretty primitive in comparison to the dwarves. The only ones who rival dwarves in technological prowess are the qunari. The rest of Thedas would have been conquored by superior training and tech of the qunari, had it not been for their prowess with magic.

And I'm still trying to get this "higher ground" advantage, as if it some some sort of pancea for the surface's numerous inadequecies. Last time I went to Orzammar, I had to CLIMB a mountain. The gates of orzammar are at a higher altitude than their surroundings. The city itself is underneath a mountain., which is still a higher elevation than the attacking forces.

not to mention dwarves again, are technologically superior in terms of building as well. Do you remember those massive gates under vigil's keep? Those hold off the darkspawn for decades. I doubt they would make their own city gates any less vulnerable.

[quote]When they outnumber and have as many advantages on the enemy as they do, Commiting only their countries force still has a good chance of being sucessful.[/quote]

No, it does not. Not when the dwarves have the advantage of home territory and close fighting experience. And they have far fewer advantages than the dwarves on so many fronts it's not funny. The dwarves have better tech, better training, betetr gear, and far more reason to fight to the death than the Chantry's forces, who are simply there because the divine wants them to be.

Do not underestimate the psychological factors at work. The dwarves fighting to protect their homeland from conquest, and their way of life from destruction, will give them an added furor and unity in purpose, something the surfacers would not have.

[quote]The Ferelden thing would be a problem yes, But they are devistated by war and could do little to oppose the chantry with most of the nobles armies having died at ostagar, many more at denerim and the royal coffers most likely depleted from having to rebuild.[/quote]

ferelden still has an army. Most of their forces did not die at ostagar, only a few nobles and the king's army did. The defeated the orlesians with in ill equipped army of farmers with pitch forks. And fighting ferelden would take up a massive drain of the Chantry's personnel and resources, since they would be fighting an enemy on the surface, and an enemy below. Ferelden is not nearly as helpless as you make it out to be, especially given the state of it in Witch Hunt. If foreign armies tried to invade Ferelden, you just gave the country a reason to unite.

Guerilla warfare is something that breaks even superpowers like orlais. orlais would not risk invading Ferelden simply to attack the dwarves, and risk being drawn into a long, bloody conflict that will cost more than it gains. They have learned that lesson once.

[quote]Its not like as soon as they declare the March their lyrium resources will be gone instantly. They would have enough Lyrium to last them a while. And even if they did, then they need not use their templars but simply the soldiers of Orlais. [quote]

Mages use lyrium too. The Chantry does not have sufficient stockpiles to last them long enough, either. the codexes say the dwarves only sell a small fraction of their lyrium to the surface. With the demands from both the templars and the Circles requiring lyrium, their supply would not last them long at all. If they had sufficent stores of lyrium, the lyrium smuggling trade would not be as profitable as it is.

[quote]Also No, all factors are certainly not in the dwarves favor.. The choke point isn't theirs because they are the inferior force, In both numbers and in other factors, such as the fact they they have the lower ground. Which certainly isn't something in their favor, there is not a single point for why It would be. Having the lower ground is not a good thing.[/quote]

Yes, the choke point is theirs. it is behind their gates, in their city. And I still don't get where you think that the surfacers have any advantages over the dwarves except numbers. The dwarves have everything else in their favor. I've already pointed this out numerous times, so I will not go into it again.

[quote]and yes majority mages are under templar rule... Or dead. Those hiding in the forests and mountains are far inferior in number. The chances of them unifying is also very unlikely. The Countries of thedas, The Andrastean countries of thedas. have only a few forests and mountains which remain unexplored. The Dalish mages wouldn't go to Orzamaar's circle. they would stay with their clan, The dragon cults would remain with their cults, the barbarian mages would remain with their tribes.
[/quote]

In Origins, you encounter many mages not under the Chantry's control, that are unallied to any other group. The Mage's Collective, for starters, and given the clues we see in game, it is most likely a pretty large organization. There are also the escapees from the tower, hedge mages that managed to hide their talent from the templars, or apostates in secret like the Hawkes. There are more apostate mages out there than the Chantry lets on.

An Exalted March on Orzammar simply would not work, pure and simple. And when you take into consideration that within the next 10 years Thedas is going through a massive upheaval as hinted in DA", especially as far as the Chantry is concerned, then an Exalted March being called, and then being successful, is about as likely a Loghain volunteering to marry celene himself.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

And by the way, this whole bit of "duty" and "obligation" might work for quasi-paladin Warden. However, nations work very differently. nations, if they grow to power, do so by sound descisions and pragmatic policies. They do not do so by bowing to the whim of any extra-national organization, including a religious one.



There is no pragmatic benefit for Orlais or Nevarra to attack Orzammar on the Chantry's behalf. None. There is far more to be lost, in fact. And so far, I have seen you produce a legit reason why Andrastian nations would want to attack Orzammar. Because it has an independant circle? Nope. Ferelden very well could end up with one, yet i do not see anyone queing up to invade. An independant Circle in Orzammar would not be enough of a threat to Orlais or Nevarra to justify the cost of participating in an exalted march, when only the Chantry really benefits.

[ejoslin]

And the chantry doesn't benefit! Weakening Orzammar weakens their supply of lyrium. Attacking Orzammar cuts it off, at least for awhile.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

And even if they did succeed, who would mine the stuff? Only the dwarves can actually sniff out lyrium deposits, let alone mine them. The Chantry would have killed it's lifeline.



And let us not forget potential allies the dwarves could call on. Tevinter comes into mind. Tevinter is a magocracy. Mages need lyrium to cast alot of spells/make alot of potions, ect. Obviously, the only place Tevinter could get lyrium from is the dwarves, because I just don't see the Cahntry supplying them. And many things/codexes in game point to some sort of on-going relationship with Tevinter.



Do you really think Tevinter would just sit by while one of it's greatest enemies, the Andrastian Chantry, attacks and attempts to control the only supplier of lyrium in Thedas?



I don't think so. Tevinter would be more than likely to back the dwarves and send aid in the form of magic. Magic, which, I'll point out, is most likely NOT something the Chantry Circles know how to combat very well.

[TheBigMatt90]

I dont see how you consider the choke point and higher ground to be an advantage for the superior numbered force that is attacking a subterranian fortress? The choke point stops it from been able to bring its entire force to bear at once, meaning a load of soldiers sat around doing F A. The fact it is in a mountain again means that the dwarves need much less dwarves to defend a door than if they were in an open field. On open ground, yes the dwarves would lose, but they are defending their own fortress. They know it better than anyone. The Chantry would stumble in (thats if they could get the doors off, which is highly unlikely if a dwarf cant get another dwarf fortress doors off) get pwned by magic they have banned (meaning it is harder to defend against), stomped my some immensely powerful golems (remember they cant hit critically ) and then overpowered by superiorly trained and battle hardened dwarves. I just dont see them a) marching in the first place due to it being in Ferelden, possessing the Lyrium, being a near impenetrable fortress, and then penetrating said fortress, being caught in their own choke point, fighting said defenders, and then coming out on top. Please tell us how the choke point is in the surface forces advantage?

[Costin_Razvan]

Orzammar to fall against the Chantry? You mean Orzammar vs Orlais as there is no way in bloody hell Nevarra will help Orlais at first, and it's the only nation with an army besides Orlais. Well there is the Anderfels ( good luck with grey wardens being neutral ), the free marches ( who follow Nevarra anyway ).



So Orlais vs Orzammar. Yeah good luck assaulting a MOUNTAIN. Seriously you know that tiny little engagment in a narrow pass in Greece. An engament where a force of some 7.000 fought a "mere" army of 200.000 and damned bloody near won?



Yeah. Assaulting Orzammar would fighting a Thermopylae for every inch of ground gained for Orlais, hell it would even be worse. Even if ( and I say IF ) Orlais manages to get into the commons then it only get worse as the Dwarves will be able to reign down archer, artillery and magic down on their forces with almost virtually no capability for response.



So Orlais would lose in a 1 on 1 fight against Orzammar

[IanPolaris]

Actually a fully indepedant circle of magi in Orzammar might be one of many things that sparks off a Mage-Chantry Civil War (and we know it's coming).

I wouldn't put it past the Chantry to be dumb enough to try to start an Exalted March against Orzammar.  After all, the Divine's seem to be old biddies that seem to have a tenuous grasp on reality as best (see Divines Justina, Renata, and Ambrosia II), but the practice would almost certainly lead to a total disaster for the Chantry.

First of all the Chantry doesn't have the power of conscription.  The Chantry has to beg/borrow/plead/intimidate other nations into giving it the backbone that the March is going to need (think Crusades), and in this case it means going into a hostile Nation (Fereldan is almost certainly going to be hostile assming a King Bhelen) with a hostile population.  Given the military ties, Fereldan may very well ally itself with Orzammar!  Even if she doesn't, there are loads of ways a nation like Fereldan could make an Orlesian Army's life completely miserable (and most of the troops would be Orlesion) without ever actually quite crossing the bounds into open hostility...and certainly the Fereldan people would go along since memories of the Orlesian Occupation are recent and bitter.

Celene I, Empress of Orlais, of course knows all this being no one's dummy, and she knows she has a serious border problem brewing with Nevarra.  This is why she was openly courting King Cailen both politically and romantically (so she wouldn't have to face a two-front war).  You think she's going to throw it all away because a self-important batty old woman cries about her "Duty to the Maker"?  I think not! 

Now look at it from the PoV of the other Andrasian nations.  The Chantry is asking them to beseige an entire mountain, in a countery that is almost certainly going to be openly hostile, and where the beseiged Dwarves have all the advantages, and they have to go up against the most battleharded troops in Thedas backed up almost certainly with blood magic and golems?  I'll pass thank you!  Even if the Chantry wins (which they won't), there won't be lyruim trade for years (the seige will certainly last years no matter what) and after just a few months the Templars are going to be basically worthless.  That leaves all the other Andrastian nations holding the bag. So let's look at them:

Orlais I've covered.  Orlais wants better relations with Fereldan and a batty old Divine isn't going to change that.
Nevarra also wants better relations with Fereldan because of Orlais.  That and the logistics makes it damn sure they won't help the Divine either and especially not if it means cooperating with Orlais.
Antiva doesn't have much a military to speak of anyway, and inflitrating assassings into Orzammar would be tricky at best...and not really worth the political price.
Free Marches are on the verge of their own Mage-Chantry war sparked by Fereldan Refugees.  They can't sent help even if they wanted to (which they really can't...the logistics completely work against them).
Andrefels?  Arl of Amaranthine.  Enough said.  The Wardens won't side with the chantry on this especially given the Wardens deep and close ties with Orzammar.  The best the Chantry can hope from the Wardens is they stay out of it.

If the batty divine starts talking about it, I am sure her Grand Knight Commander of the Templars will talk some reality into her, and especially if it looks like things are going to blow up in the Free Marches.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Orzammar to fall against the Chantry? You mean Orzammar vs Orlais as there is no way in bloody hell Nevarra will help Orlais at first, and it's the only nation with an army besides Orlais. Well there is the Anderfels ( good luck with grey wardens being neutral ), the free marches ( who follow Nevarra anyway ).

So Orlais vs Orzammar. Yeah good luck assaulting a MOUNTAIN. Seriously you know that tiny little engagment in a narrow pass in Greece. An engament where a force of some 7.000 fought a "mere" army of 200.000 and damned bloody near won?

Yeah. Assaulting Orzammar would fighting a Thermopylae for every inch of ground gained for Orlais, hell it would even be worse. Even if ( and I say IF ) Orlais manages to get into the commons then it only get worse as the Dwarves will be able to reign down archer, artillery and magic down on their forces with almost virtually no capability for response.

So Orlais would lose in a 1 on 1 fight against Orzammar

It would be worse than Thermopylae.  The Spartans and their Greek allies would have been able to fight the Persians to a standstill (and did for many critical days) and forced the Persians to withdraw and find another route (a tactical victory) had the Greeks not been flanked out by a mountain path that they didn't know about and a local Greek traitor sold out to the Persians.

There isn't any way that Orzammar can be flanked out.  The entire Geography forbids it.  You have to go through the mountain doors (and good luck with that!) where Chantry numbers would be totally meaningless, or the Exalted March would have to find another passage in the Deep Roads and fight the DARKSPAWN (which would certainly outnumber the exalted march) on their way to Orzmmar while the Dwarves sit back and knock down a few lichen ales and munch on some leg of nug while laying bets as to how many stupid surfaces will survive the Darkspawn...and wondering which is better.

-Polaris