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[BigBad]

Timeline of the Exalted March on Orzammar

Day 1 - Forces begin to arrive, in the Frostback Mountains, months late due to Ferelden interference and threats of war. Forces consist of a few Ferelden Templars whose zealotry outweighs responsibility toward rebuilding the Blight-ravaged nation, a few Orlesian units who slipped past border patrols and are laying low to avoid sparking a major international incident (and possibly be executed as spies or the vanguard for an invasion of Ferelden by Orlais), and various zealots, fanatics, and crusaders from around Thedas in a makeshift militia with no real supply chain to support their siege in hostile territory.

Day 3 - Orzammar closes doors when it becomes clear that these crazy surfacers aren't going away soon. Plans are made to survive siege (consisting mainly of drinking ale and asking loudly "Did anyone feel that? Thought I felt the stone vibrate a bit."). If siege weapons make an appearance (only possible by being built there on the spot, and easily prevented by deforestation), the Hall of Paragons will be filled with stones, possibly collapsed or have lava flows rerouted through it.

Day 20 - 142 - Dwarves continue being dwarves. Chantry forces, being unable to tunnel through solid stone or in any way damage a mountain with their l33t antimagic skills, alternately starve and freeze, begin to splinter. Templars go crazy, Ferelden forces show up to capture the forces from Orlais, and the zealots begin to retreat into the dangerous breed of fanaticism, marked by vicious squabbles between competing 'prophets'.

Day 150 - Dwarves peek outside to find the mountain bare and everybody gone, shrug and go back inside for another six weeks of winter.

Modifié par BigBad, 27 janvier 2011 - 09:04 .

[mav76]

I've got to say the Dwarves easily outlast any siege the Chantry tries.



1. Higher ground won't mean anything if the dwarves refuse to come out and play. All the fighting will be done inside Orzammar (assuming the Chantry finds a way to breach the gates, which is unlikely.



2. Sieges always favor the defender. The only way to storm fortifications is to either accept massive losses, or siege is long enough to starve out the defenders. Orzammar can't be starved out because they don't need to get any of their food from the surface.



3. Orzammar's construction is far superior for defense than any human castle. There are no walls to storm, only a single set of gates that must be gone through. Perhaps with several years of effort, the Chantry could pick away at the gates to burrow a tunnel through. That just gets them into the hall of Paragons, where they face another set of gates into the city proper. By the time they've succeeded burrowing through the outer gates, I'll bet the dwarves will have prepared to flood the Hall of Paragons with lava. They just wait until the tunneling team gets set up for the inner gates and release the lava. If the Chantry kept trying to breach the inner gates, just release another wave of lava (enough to add another foot to the existing pile would be enough to kill everyone in the Hall each time. Eventually, the entire Hall would be filled, and the Chantry would have to tunnel the length of the hall just to get to the inner gates again.

[IanPolaris]

All this is assuming that the Dwarve's don't counter-mine and counter-sapp the Chantry sappers, and given the two, my money is on the Dwarves having the better combat engineers.

-Polaris
'
Edit:  Technically the Chantry forces could find another entrance to the Deep Roads and try to assault Orzammar from there.  Of course there is a tiny Darkspawn problem they'd have to fight through first......

Modifié par IanPolaris, 27 janvier 2011 - 07:18 .

[shatteredstar56]

The dwarves would easily outlast any seige, if they were inside Orzammar. The gates you walk in are huge, and would stand against any forceful knocking easily. They're resistant against magic, so any mages used to employ to get inside the gates would have a problem to deal with once the gates were gone. And there's another similar gate inside.

The dwarves don't need anyone else to supply them with food or water, and so wouldn't be starved out. All they would miss is the strange silks and foreign comforts. Eventually the Chantry would run out of money and troops and they would leave.



Now if the Chantry was smart, they would sucker the dwarves into letting them in, then release all fury once inside the gates. Mages are a dud with dwarves, but some fine archery and a ton of armor would help out. If they had golems, the Chantry would be screwed again, but the dwarves are dwindling on numbers, and would easily be outnumbered by a human and elf army, if the Chantry lets elves join.

[IanPolaris]

What makes you think the Dwarves are going to let any Chantry army in? Remember that after DAO (assuming a King Bhelen) there is an active military alliance between Fereldan and Orzammar and the alliance between the Grey Wardens and Orzammar predates the Chantry! Either would almost certainly tell King Bhelen the Chantry was up to no good long before the Exalted March could assemble since by their very nature (like the RL Crusades) such things are absolute information sieves, i.e. given the multinational nature of an Exalted March, attack by suprise (secrecy) is essentially impossible.



-Polaris

[Elhanan]

Since it means Bhelen is dead on the floor of the Assembly, we will live happily ever after....

And the Chantry breaks on the Gates of Orzammar like ale at a tavern!

[atunnei]

Anyone who thinks an attacking army will try to use a choke point doesn't understand what a choke-point is for.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Elhanan wrote...

Since it means Bhelen is dead on the floor of the Assembly, we will live happily ever after....

You will. The rest of Orzammar won't.

Though I have picked Harrowmont, and on my third favroite playthrough, my DN. But then again, she picked him because she knew he was a tool, and would be easy to remove once she returned triumphantly from that whole Blight Business. And as far as morality goes, she makes Bhelen look like a friggin paladin.

But oh, will it be glorious.

[Sarah1281]

...What does that altered epilogue slide have to do with whether the Chantry could defeat the dwarves?

And I still don't see why you seem to think Bhelen's existence is the only thing wrong with Orzammar and having him 'dead on the floor of the Assembly' will automatically propel them into a Golden Age. One person is rarely the sole thing standing in the way of a nation and perfection.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 27 janvier 2011 - 11:08 .

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

...What does that altered epilogue slide have to do with whether the Chantry could defeat the dwarves?

It doesn't. but the topic keeps changing; so must I.

And I still don't see why you seem to think Bhelen's existence is the only thing wrong with Orzammar and having him 'dead on the floor of the Assembly' will automatically propel them into a Golden Age. One person is rarely the sole thing standing in the way of a nation and perfection.

It means that this murderous nug will not get his opp to further corrupt Orzammar, so true reform may occur. It means the DN Warden gets justice. It means that Bhelen is dead, and silence is Golden. Pick one....

Modifié par Elhanan, 28 janvier 2011 - 03:40 .

[Sarah1281]

It means that this murderous nug will not get his opp to further corrupt Orzammar, so true reform may occur. It means the DN Warden gets justice. It means that Bhelen is dead, and silence is Golden. Pick one....

I see that you're once again choosing to ignore the fact that canonically Bhelen is the reformer and his epilogue even labels him that. I don't see that justice for one person is worth dooming an entire nation. Bhelen's death still has nothing to do with the Chantry invading Orzammar.

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

It means that this murderous nug will not get his opp to further corrupt Orzammar, so true reform may occur. It means the DN Warden gets justice. It means that Bhelen is dead, and silence is Golden. Pick one....

I see that you're once again choosing to ignore the fact that canonically Bhelen is the reformer and his epilogue even labels him that. I don't see that justice for one person is worth dooming an entire nation. Bhelen's death still has nothing to do with the Chantry invading Orzammar.

Bhelen aids the Casteless in spite of his corrupt views; not because of it. As he sees fit to murder to get his way, I prefer to seek greater reform elsewhere. Orzammar is not doomed under either candidate.

And I do not care about the Chantry, but it is the new topic, so I gave it a nod.

[Sarah1281]

Say there were two potential kings of Orzammar in the future. Both miraculously manage to end the caste system and institute a true democracy in the Assembly. One does this because he truly cares about the plight of the people and the other is thinking about all those new voters who will express their gratitude by voting his way on the matters he must place before the Assembly. Since the end result is EXACTLY THE SAME, why does it matter what the motive was?



Why does Bhelen's choosing to help the casteless because he wants to use them to keep Orzammar from being overrun by darkspawn instead of because he deeply empathizes with them make his reforms worthless? Even just ignoring the fact that you won't stop calling him a "murderous nug" and acting like his personal morality means a damn thing, you don't even seem to think the good he does is worth anything because it isn't motivated solely by altruism.

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Say there were two potential kings of Orzammar in the future. Both miraculously manage to end the caste system and institute a true democracy in the Assembly. One does this because he truly cares about the plight of the people and the other is thinking about all those new voters who will express their gratitude by voting his way on the matters he must place before the Assembly. Since the end result is EXACTLY THE SAME, why does it matter what the motive was?

Why does Bhelen's choosing to help the casteless because he wants to use them to keep Orzammar from being overrun by darkspawn instead of because he deeply empathizes with them make his reforms worthless? Even just ignoring the fact that you won't stop calling him a "murderous nug" and acting like his personal morality means a damn thing, you don't even seem to think the good he does is worth anything because it isn't motivated solely by altruism.

I choose not to select an immoral man to Reform an immoral nation .

Orzammar needs true reform: to aid the Casteless, fix the political system, and reestablish honor and family as Dwarven ideals; not the perverted state it currently holds.

Motives may not matter to you or to anyone that does not care how the end results are achieved. I choose another way.

P.S. And the Exalted March fails due to a lack of interest below the surface.

Modifié par Elhanan, 28 janvier 2011 - 04:33 .

[Augustei]

With the argument of the impenetrable doors.. I seem to recall in awakening the dwarf saying those designs were never completed. Also the gates to orzamaar seem to look alot like the ones found in the deep roads and the ones in the intro... The ones that get smashed through by an Ogre.. The Doors can be battared down.

The Chantry do intially have the higher ground.. Because the fighting would not be outside the mountain it would be in orzamaar once they get through the gates. Then they have the higher ground all the way up to the Diamond Quater. Then and only then are they finally at the disadvantage of not having the higher ground.

I think whoever is chosen as King could greatly effect the outcome of the battle.. If Harrowmont is King, then the Chantry could convince the casteless to join them and mine their lyrium for them because they are so belittled. They could promise to leave them in a position of power once orzamaar is theirs.

If Bhelen is King then that plan would be esentially out the window.. But im sure there would still be a few castless... Not many though, willing to join their side.

and even if there is lots of Maleficar / Apostates in Thedas.. I highly doubt they would go to the Orzamaar circle.. Like I said, they already have other better options and most belong to particular orders or clans.. The barbarians have their tribes, The Dalish have their tribes, Maleficar have Orsiano and Apostates have Tevinter..

Also Tevinter siding with the dwarves would be highly unlikely.. To get to Orzamaar they would have to either brave the deep roads, where they would be killed by darkspawn. March their armys there.. Where they would be killed by the soldiers of the countries they march through.. Free Marches, Nevarra, Orlais.. All these countries are hostile to Tevinter.. Plus Tevinter is already at war with the Qunari. They can hardly afford to start another one.

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 28 janvier 2011 - 10:14 .

[Elhanan]

As far as the Chantry, I was not thinking of a single gate, but a series of gates constructd while the outermost set delayed progress. While the Chantry could use fire, smoke, and cloud spells to try and exterminate those living beyond, the many vents in the tunnels would provide too much air for this to be totally successful.

I believe the Chantry would be more successful using political strength, economic pressure, and other social means of coersion rather than try for any direct confrontation into lands so sparce of their own belief.

[Augustei]

I would actually want the dwarves to win. and as for the harrowmont thing. Heck isolation from the surface is better then opening our doors. "We dont appreciate outsiders looking around our home as if it were some kind of zoo"



Isolation is the way to go, Harrowmont is the way to go

[Elhanan]

XxDeonxX wrote...

I would actually want the dwarves to win. and as for the harrowmont thing. Heck isolation from the surface is better then opening our doors. "We dont appreciate outsiders looking around our home as if it were some kind of zoo"

Isolation is the way to go, Harrowmont is the way to go

Isolation may be the outcome if there is an Exalted March, but this is not an outcome that favors the Dwarves. The only relief from the Darkspawn comes during Blights, and allies are needed for an extended respite.

But I agree that Bhelen is not the answer I seek, so I look for alternatives.

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

I would actually want the dwarves to win. and as for the harrowmont thing. Heck isolation from the surface is better then opening our doors. "We dont appreciate outsiders looking around our home as if it were some kind of zoo"

Isolation is the way to go, Harrowmont is the way to go

Bhelen retakes the lost thaigs, can handle Branka and the golems, utilizes the casteless to fight the darkspawn, and improves trade relations with the surface which likely improve the economy of Orzammar. I'm not certain why you think Harrowmont's isolationist policy and inept handling of pretty much everything is going to be a good thing for Orzammar. Orzammar needs a strong King, not a weak one.

[jaikss]

I can see why the Chantry would consider an Exalted march due to the "illegal" circle(if it turns out successfull and beneficial to the government then it might raise some questions regarding the chantries "need" to monopolize mages as they do),although I doubt they would be able to survive the shortage of lyrium resulting from it,since their whole army funcitoning properly is practically dependant on it.
Even if Chantry decided to call it,I really dont see the nations going for it,considering how expensive such a siege would be and how little there would infact be gained from it.

However if infact an Exalted march was declared and actually executed on Orzammar,it would most likely end up a big aswell as bloody failure on chantrys history.

Like mentioned dwarves really do have every advantage except numbers;superior training,superior equipment and most importantly they know the battleground,and as such theyll be able to make the most out of choke points aswell as high ground mentioned before(I really,really dont see how an invading force on an unfamiliar ground could claim either one as their advantage...)so even if the chantry forces would be able be victorius due to their superior numbers aswell as the required nudge from the maker himself,the cost would really be astronomical.

Then theres the minor fact of actually holding Orzammar,somehow I dont see the chidlren of the stone throwing away their weapons and kindly mining lyrium to the surfacers who invaded their ancient home...

Overall;bad idea chantry,bad idea .

[LupusYondergirl]

XxDeonxX wrote...

I seem to recall in awakening the dwarf saying those designs were never completed.

He said the doors *in Awakening* were never completed.  As in, the doors he was pointing at when he said it.  As in, the doors he then proceeded to complete.

Not the design, not any doors in Orzammar.  Just that set of doors right there in front of him.

And I would think by now they would have had time to reinforce the doors and/or redesign.  The ones in the Deep Roads were put up at the time of the first blight, when the dwarven kingdom was overrun.  Done in a rush, hoping to hold the darkspawn back and buy some time.

They've had a few years to work on it since then.
Like, more than a thousand of them. (First blight was 1300 years after the start of Origins, after all)

[Sarah1281]

You know who the Chantry SHOULD do an Exalted March on? The darkspawn. They never will but they should.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

You know who the Chantry SHOULD do an Exalted March on? The darkspawn. They never will but they should.

Can't be converted.

Naah that wouldn't be entirely fair, I am not sure the Chantry expected the Qunari to convert. But simply put, the darkspawn present no idealogical threat to the Chantry (it's indeed part of  their idealogy). Qunari, Tevinter and Dales do.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 janvier 2011 - 04:05 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Sarah1281 wrote...

You know who the Chantry SHOULD do an Exalted March on? The darkspawn. They never will but they should.

But why would they? The darkspawn and the Blights are the Maker's punishment on this sinful world! Why would they defy "His Will"? <_<