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[ObserverStatus]

Sarah1281 wrote...

You know who the Chantry SHOULD do an Exalted March on? The darkspawn. They never will but they should.

Now that would be awesome.

[IanPolaris]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

You know who the Chantry SHOULD do an Exalted March on? The darkspawn. They never will but they should.

But why would they? The darkspawn and the Blights are the Maker's punishment on this sinful world! Why would they defy "His Will"? <_<

Indeed, Father Kolgrim says much the same thing if you ask his cultists to fight against the Darkspawn, and I think the Divine would feel much the same way.  One more reason (as I see it) the Chantry and Grey Wardens don't get along.

-Polaris

[Sarah1281]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

You know who the Chantry SHOULD do an Exalted March on? The darkspawn. They never will but they should.

But why would they? The darkspawn and the Blights are the Maker's punishment on this sinful world! Why would they defy "His Will"? <_<

That's why they won't but it would be the most useful thing they could do and really set the darkspawn back. They just need to wait until they're convinced that people are sufficiently pious enough but they decide that the Maker has 'forgiven' Thedas and therefore it's okay to kill darkspawn.

[Herr Uhl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Naah that wouldn't be entirely fair, I am not sure the Chantry expected the Qunari to convert. But simply put, the darkspawn present no idealogical threat to the Chantry (it's indeed part of  their idealogy). Qunari, Tevinter and Dales do.

I think that the ideology of the darkspawn clashes with that of the chantry, but that is probably just me.

[IanPolaris]

Herr Uhl wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Naah that wouldn't be entirely fair, I am not sure the Chantry expected the Qunari to convert. But simply put, the darkspawn present no idealogical threat to the Chantry (it's indeed part of  their idealogy). Qunari, Tevinter and Dales do.

I think that the ideology of the darkspawn clashes with that of the chantry, but that is probably just me.

Disagree.  Unless awakened, the Darkspawn themselves don't have an idology and really resemble locusts rather than men in this regard.  However, the presence of the Darkspawn and their blights across the land actally help the Chantry preach fire and brimestone, and the Chantry feels very much that the Darkspawn are the Maker's punishment.  It's notable that the Wardens and Chantry don't get along and the Wardens have no agreement with the Chantry (KC Gregoire allows you to use the Templars of Fereldan on his own authority).

-Polaris

[Augustei]

IanPolaris wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Naah that wouldn't be entirely fair, I am not sure the Chantry expected the Qunari to convert. But simply put, the darkspawn present no idealogical threat to the Chantry (it's indeed part of  their idealogy). Qunari, Tevinter and Dales do.

I think that the ideology of the darkspawn clashes with that of the chantry, but that is probably just me.

Disagree.  Unless awakened, the Darkspawn themselves don't have an idology and really resemble locusts rather than men in this regard.  However, the presence of the Darkspawn and their blights across the land actally help the Chantry preach fire and brimestone, and the Chantry feels very much that the Darkspawn are the Maker's punishment.  It's notable that the Wardens and Chantry don't get along and the Wardens have no agreement with the Chantry (KC Gregoire allows you to use the Templars of Fereldan on his own authority).

-Polaris

What do you mean the Wardens dont get along with the chantry? where does it say this?

The Wardens have been Andrastean and followers of the chantry since Kordillus Drakon helped lift the siege of Weissupt and helped the wardens fight in the anderfels which i think was the 2nd Blight.

[IanPolaris]

XxDeonxX wrote...

What do you mean the Wardens dont get along with the chantry? where does it say this?

The Wardens have been Andrastean and followers of the chantry since Kordillus Drakon helped lift the siege of Weissupt and helped the wardens fight in the anderfels which i think was the 2nd Blight.

Not really.  The Anderfells became Andrasian then sure, but Wardens are not required to worship the Maker and many Wardens including many famous ones are not Andrastian and never have been, and there is no legal bar against that in the Grey Wardens.

Furthermore, when you refuse the Chantry (either blessing in Ostagar or Ryloc in Amaranthine) you get the same cold response that the Wardens have always been willing to shelder heathans, maleficarum, and the like.

No.  I think it's very fair for me to say that the relationship between the Chantry and the Wardens is at best "correct" and often barely correct.  Now, that's not true with the Emperors of Orlais!   Orlais and the Wardens have been on cordial terms for centuries (since this battle) but that's far from saying the Chantry has been.

-Polaris

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Herr Uhl wrote...

I think that the ideology of the darkspawn clashes with that of the chantry, but that is probably just me.

Not really.

Darkspawn: Kill everyone and everything in our path.
Chantry: Convert or kill everyone that's not us.

The darkspawn really don't have much of an ideology. Find Old Gods, ressurect them, and spread annihilation.
They do not offer an alternative way of thinking/believing, so as far as the Chantry is concerned, they are a non-issue. They only attack and harrass the dwarves, who are godless heathens anyway.

Only those who threaten the Chantry's monopoly on faith are worth the effort.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Also, let's not forget that Orlesian interests probably figured heavily in those exalted marches. The one against the Dales was declared because Orlais was getting beaten. Before Nevarra, Orlais' main rival was the Tevinter Imperium and they were bitter enemies (the Wardens had a really tough time uniting them in the 3rd blight). And of course the Qunari I presume became a direct and unavoidable threat to Orlais, as I remember that they conquered a large part of Thedas' hinterland.

So Orlais has other things to worry about than darkspawn underground who only appear on the surface every few centuries.

[Giggles_Manically]

The Legion is also fulled with expert stealth soldiers.



Can you say Legionaries slipping out and cutting the throats of sleeping troops.

It would go badly for the Chantry if they tried to do that.



Besides in my dwarven golden age run they would be fighting:

The soldiers of Orzamar who just beat a blight.

Casteless troops who have been fighting more darkspawn.

Brand spanking new golems.

Plus the forces of Fereldan who are fighting with them.



Can you say "screwed in every possible sense of the word?"

[Costin_Razvan]

Funny Giggles how you declare there is no way in hell Fereldan+Orzammar can beat the Chantry in a 1 on 1 fight but here you reverse your statement.

[Giggles_Manically]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Funny Giggles how you declare there is no way in hell Fereldan+Orzammar can beat the Chantry in a 1 on 1 fight but here you reverse your statement.

I am saying they can beat an army that is dumb enough to march all the way up into the mountains to siege a mountain and leave their ass hanging out for it to get hit by Fereldan.

A march like that is going to cause attrition based on the distance, and weather alone.


Also I am not getting into a debate with you about your retarded plan to take on the whole continent with whole groups of people who wont actually be dumb enough to help you.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Also, let's not forget that Orlesian interests probably figured heavily in those exalted marches. The one against the Dales was declared because Orlais was getting beaten. Before Nevarra, Orlais' main rival was the Tevinter Imperium and they were bitter enemies (the Wardens had a really tough time uniting them in the 3rd blight). And of course the Qunari I presume became a direct and unavoidable threat to Orlais, as I remember that they conquered a large part of Thedas' hinterland.
So Orlais has other things to worry about than darkspawn underground who only appear on the surface every few centuries.

Exactly. Like I said before, Celene is not stupid. An Exalted March on Orzammar would be only serving Chantry interests, but would not give much benefit to Orlais. If anything, it would make things worse for Orlais (potentially sparking a new war with Ferelden, tying up resources and giving Nevarra a better position to take disputed territories, ect).

So if the Chantry called an exalted march, it would probably be made up of little more than templars, and maybe mages they had brainwashed well enough. I can't see any other nation joining in, unless they are run by totally incompetant, blindly religous morons. If anything, maybe other nations might see an independant Circle as a good thing, encouraging their own apostates to leave and go plague someone else.

[KnightofPhoenix]

That was more of a response as to why the Chantry doesnt' declare exalted marches on the darkspawn.

I do believe it's possible for Orlais, if not now then in a few decades when it starts feeling surpassed by Nevarra, to reach the conclusion that having absolute control over Lyrium would be in their benefit and what might bring it to the forefront.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 janvier 2011 - 10:42 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That was more of a response as to why the Chantry doesnt' declare exalted marches on the darkspawn.

I do believe it's possible for Orlais, if not now then in a few decades when it starts feeling surpassed by Nevarra, to reach the conclusion that having absolute control over Lyrium would be in their benefit and what might bring it to the forefront.

In a few decades, they have even less chance. If you picked Bhelen, and put someone reasonably competant on the Ferelden throne, it would be pretty much fail on Orlais' and the Chantry's part.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Not arguing whether they can succeed or not. Not my point. Desperate countries have been known of doing desperate things. A cornered animal is known for its ferocity.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

True. Though I don't see Orlais as being cornered now. As far as the near future, I guess we'll find out in DA2 with whatever happens regarding the Freemarches/Nevarra/Chantry.

[Costin_Razvan]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

True. Though I don't see Orlais as being cornered now. As far as the near future, I guess we'll find out in DA2 with whatever happens regarding the Freemarches/Nevarra/Chantry.

If Fereldan and Orzammar establish strong diplomatic relations. IF Fereldan begins gaining power, and IF Fereldan also begins pursuing an alliance with Nevarra then Celene would have to be pretty stupid to not take active steps against Fereldan and Orzammar, which would boil down to a war.

She can't just allow Fereldan and Nevarra to ally, her nation is already surrounded on all sides by nations which have a quarrel or two with Orlais.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
If Fereldan and Orzammar establish strong diplomatic relations. IF Fereldan begins gaining power, and IF Fereldan also begins pursuing an alliance with Nevarra then Celene would have to be pretty stupid to not take active steps against Fereldan and Orzammar, which would boil down to a war.

She can't just allow Fereldan and Nevarra to ally, her nation is already surrounded on all sides by nations which have a quarrel or two with Orlais.

Certainly, if all those "ifs" are in place, then yes, I can see the Orlesians taking direct action, most likely against Ferelden, the smaller of it's two adversaries. Celene certainly would like to see Ferelden neutralized, so she could focus on Nevarra.

But in the very near future, when supposedly this Exalted March is getting called, I don't see Orlais as really being in such a desperate situation.

[Glorfindel709]

Ok so I had to skip the last few pages of this to respond to something that keeps being mentioned by the Harrowfail/Chantry Will Win all Hail Andrastian Hypocrites guy. "The chantry would have a choke point and the higher ground" What does a choke point and the higher ground amount to when the enemy not only lives but *thrives* Underground!



"Hey dwarves, if you try to come up here to the surface you'll only be able to come in a line 3-abreast AND we'll be up on the cliffs with arrows ready to volley down upon you!"

"Cool story salroca, did you know that going to the surface is something we really don't need to do? Seeing as our food, drinks, and weapon capacity needs are all fulfilled down here... Not to mention we might lose our stone sense and fall up into the sky. But have fun, stay warm!"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Truly Brilliant.

[Sarah1281]

"Cool story salroca, did you know that going to the surface is something we really don't need to do? Seeing as our food, drinks, and weapon capacity needs are all fulfilled down here... Not to mention we might lose our stone sense and fall up into the sky. But have fun, stay warm!"

I'm not sure about this actually. One of the reasons mentioned that it was such a problem that the city was shut down was because they CAN'T handle their own food production down in Orzammar. They don't grow food and they can't subsist entirely on nugs. They end up having to import a lot and the people outside Orzammar seemed legitimately concerned that they'd starve.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I'm not sure about this actually. One of the reasons mentioned that it was such a problem that the city was shut down was because they CAN'T handle their own food production down in Orzammar. They don't grow food and they can't subsist entirely on nugs. They end up having to import a lot and the people outside Orzammar seemed legitimately concerned that they'd starve.

If they had to, they could survive off of nugs, lichen, mushrooms, mosses, and various other types of fungi.

The dwarves are highly adapted to life underground, I think their nutritional requirements also have adapted.

They do make bread and ale out of lichen, which is plentiful in underground environments.

[Glorfindel709]

The lichen was specifically what I was referring to with the they can produce their own food. Not to mention they have those basins that automatically fill with clean water, a rune key that the Shaperate is apparently very skilled with. Sure they would be eating basic rations (Cram, anyone?) but they'd be able to survive on it. They just wouldnt be getting much in the way of grains or dairy (unless Brontos can be milked O.o)

[Augustei]

Whether or not they live underground does not change the fact that their enemy having the higher ground is an advantage for their enemy.

Soldiers will tire more quickly when fighting uphill, will move more slowly, and if fighting in formation will have little ability to see beyond the soldiers in front of them. Likewise, soldiers fighting on the hill won't get tired as quickly, will move faster, and will be able to see farther when in formation, aiding them in making smart tactical maneuvers. Furthermore, soldiers who are elevated above their enemies can get greater range out of low-speed projectiles like rocks and javelins. Likewise, rocks and javelins will have less range when thrown uphill. Having the higher ground also gives the chantry more strength for a forward push

[Sarah1281]

Whether or not they live underground does not change the fact that their enemy having the higher ground is an advantage for their enemy.

Why in the world would they HAVE to fight on lower ground? They can just seal up their doors and then a siege begins. Will the Chantry have enough lyrium stockpiled to supply the mages and templars before the dwarves run out of ways to keep themselves fed? Doubtful.