591 réponses à ce sujet

[Verly]

I almost always pick Bhelen. I can see a human noble pick Bhelen because they might be thinking in a Human way and since an Aeducan was on the thrown they might think since Bhelen is the son then he should be the heir, rude or not. plus the troop thing.

a city elf could easily side with Bhelen because Dust Town reminds them of the alianage.



my aeducans usually wind up siding with their brother if they start out that way or not. speaking to harrowmount's second..sometimes does it because the idea that harrowmounts fighters are backing out and how could a man that can't control two fighters going to be able to be king? and sometimes it's speaking to harromount himself. no promise of troops, the wishy-washy" I never wanted to be king, but I'll do it. and I'll just do what ever the assembly wants me to." be a dwarf already! and sometimes my aeducan is just proud of bhelen for playing the game well.



DC is easy. your sister is in love with him. and she knows the man that no one else in the world knows. the real guy behind all the gruffness. You know what your big sis had to do, but you never once thought she was dumb or thought anything badly of her. so, why would my dwarf not believe her now?



my dalish is more tricky, it depends on the character. if they are in a relationship with Zev (I'll admit Zev is usually who my dalish are with. it's the whole elves only thing) then they have listened to his opinion before and he had been right (flaming dead being a bad idea anyone?) On the off chance my Dalish is not dating Zev, then they usually do go with Harrowmount because he is a nicer guy.



my mages it depends on the character. that is the most challenging group with me on who they side with.

[Cutlass Jack]

IanPolaris wrote...

2.  Even if you are not a DC, Bhelen gives you a clear and clear-cut promise of troops to fight the blight, and Harrowmount does not.  Honestly that should be enough by itself.

Odd. Must have been the dialogue choices you made. Harrowmount promised me very directly he'd support me in the blight. And that he would not rest until the Assembly agreed with it.

Which as the human warden is all I needed really. I'm not obligated to change their society. The only playthrough where Bhelen even looked slightly as a good choice was the Dwarf Commoner.

[LobselVith8]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

2.  Even if you are not a DC, Bhelen gives you a clear and clear-cut promise of troops to fight the blight, and Harrowmount does not.  Honestly that should be enough by itself.

Odd. Must have been the dialogue choices you made. Harrowmount promised me very directly he'd support me in the blight. And that he would not rest until the Assembly agreed with it.

Which as the human warden is all I needed really. I'm not obligated to change their society. The only playthrough where Bhelen even looked slightly as a good choice was the Dwarf Commoner.

"Until the Assembly agreed with it"? And if the Assembly never agreed with it, it's safe to say that the Warden would have been screwed out of the dwarven armies because Harrowmont is too weak to be an effective King.

[Cutlass Jack]

LobselVith8 wrote...

"Until the Assembly agreed with it"? And if the Assembly never agreed with it, it's safe to say that the Warden would have been screwed out of the dwarven armies because Harrowmont is too weak to be an effective King.

Never resting until the assembly agrees with it means not much will be getting done by the king until it happens. And its not safe to say anything at the time your forced to make the choice. There is no guarantee at the time Bhelen would have any better or worse luck. Or that he'd even try to honor the treaty.

Since Bhelen's initial tasks for you at that time all involve trickery or deceit, it would be rather foolish to assume he'd keep any word he given once he got what he wanted from you.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 18 janvier 2011 - 07:05 .

[Zy-El]

Since it was the Warden who put Bhelen on the throne, he would be the one who could do the most political damage should Bhelen renege on his promise of troops. The Warden knows the level of his deceit and trickery.

[LobselVith8]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Never resting until the assembly agrees with it means not much will be getting done by the king until it happens. And its not safe to say anything at the time your forced to make the choice. There is no guarantee at the time Bhelen would have any better or worse luck. Or that he'd even try to honor the treaty.

Except that Bhelen makes it clear that he'll send troops to support the Warden, not that he'd ask for anyone's permission to do so. Bhelen makes it happen, while Harrowmont needs to ask for permission for it to happen.

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Since Bhelen's initial tasks for you at that time all involve trickery or deceit, it would be rather foolish to assume he'd keep any word he given once he got what he wanted from you.

You mean Bhelen's second, VG, who asks the Warden to deceive politicians who Harrowmont personally paid off, as Lord Helmi reveals when he says he'll have to tell his mother that Harrowmont didn't buy their vote after all.

[Cutlass Jack]

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean Bhelen's second, VG, who asks the Warden to deceive politicians who Harrowmont personally paid off, as Lord Helmi reveals when he says he'll have to tell his mother that Harrowmont didn't buy their vote after all.

Actually I took no one's word for it, took both quests and researched. Where I learned at the Shaperate that the documents were forgeries. Following up on Harrowmount's fighters at the proving led to finding that Bhelen's people were involved in Deception and Blackmail.

So at the time I was forced to commit, Bhelen already had three strikes against him concerning his trustworthiness. Harrowmont had none. The only real info I was able to turn up concerning Harrowmont was that the former king wanted him over his own son. Something confirmed by multiple sources at that point.

[LobselVith8]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Actually I took no one's word for it, took both quests and researched. Where I learned at the Shaperate that the documents were forgeries.

Yes, but they were forgeries intended to fool people who Harrowmont paid to vote for him.

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Following up on Harrowmount's fighters at the proving led to finding that Bhelen's people were involved in Deception and Blackmail.

That describes every dwarven politician, as the VO for the Dwarven Noble explicitly states.

Cutlass Jack wrote...

So at the time I was forced to commit, Bhelen already had three strikes against him concerning his trustworthiness. Harrowmont had none. The only real info I was able to turn up concerning Harrowmont was that the former king wanted him over his own son. Something confirmed by multiple sources at that point.

Confirmed by people who clearly side with Harrowmont. Ask the guard near the Deep Roads and he'll reveal that Bhelen wants to reclaim the lost thaigs. Ask the salesman near the entrance to Dust Town and he'll reveal that it's Bhelen who wants to improve trade with the surface. Listen to the criers and both reveal that Bhelen will help the casteless - in the crier for Harrowmont's case, he uses it as evidence not to support Bhelen. Considering that the second for Harrowmont reveals that he control two of his fighters and can't even promise aid against the Blight without taking it up with the Assembly, what good is he?

[Cutlass Jack]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Yes, but they were forgeries intended to fool people who Harrowmont paid to vote for him.

That describes every dwarven politician, as the VO for the Dwarven Noble explicitly states.

These points seem counter to one another. On one hand you are saying Harrowmonts deals were somehow bad, yet on the other you are saying its typical for dwarven politics. My opinion is that Harrowmonts deals were legal and registered with the Shaperate. Bhelen made forgeries intended to decieve. No nice way to spin that.

Also, as a human noble, I would not have heard the VO for Dwarven noble, so I would not have the same points of reference on their political system. Based on my own backstory (and the events of Ostragar) I would have an exceedingly low tolerance for those who use deception and trickery to gain power.

Confirmed by people who clearly side with Harrowmont. Ask the guard near the Deep Roads and he'll reveal that Bhelen wants to reclaim the lost thaigs. Ask the salesman near the entrance to Dust Town and he'll reveal that it's Bhelen who wants to improve trade with the surface. Listen to the criers and both reveal that Bhelen will help the casteless - in the crier for Harrowmont's case, he uses it as evidence not to support Bhelen. Considering that the second for Harrowmont reveals that he control two of his fighters and can't even promise aid against the Blight without taking it up with the Assembly, what good is he?

No, Confirmed by me. The original documents were in the Shaperate. You might argue that the Shaper was the '12th cousin on Harromonts wife's sister's side' (or whatever) and would have reason to lie. You might also know first hand from other dealings with the Shaper that he was such a stickler for the facts that he'd never lie about whats in the memories. Meanwhile the twins in the arena make no secret that they did exactly what they did and who they work for. And its easy enough to confirm the story the other fighter was told was a fabrication by virtue of you actually being there to begin with.

The Salesman near Dust Town only cares about gold and sees Bhelen as the best way to get it. He doesn't care about blood in the streets, only about himself. The Criers were a running joke about political advertising and not to be taken seriously. Neither is really a compelling counter to evidence I can find about what Bhelen did to his own family, and what he tasks me to do directly.

Which leads us back to the point of this topic. Without metagaming, Bhelen seems like an exceedingly poor choice, and one he doesn't help with. Thats the point I'm sure the developers were going with. That choices aren't always that clear cut.

[ejoslin]

The criers not worth listening to? Of course they're spin doctors, but what they say is VERY interesting and informative. WHAT they want to spin, how they want their candidate to be seen, is quite illuminating.

As far as merchants wanting gold... yeh. sounds right to me. Opening up trade, yep, it will benefit people other than just the nobles, who control EVERYTHING.

You do learn, from the moment you step into Orzammar, that Harrowmont does not inspire loyalty from his people. That even his guards will run away and leave him in danger. you learn that the system Harrowmont is upholding is killing off the dwarven people. Though birthrates are low and death rates are high, the nobles are willing to throw out a segment of their population.

You learn that Orzammar is at war -- a protracted war that they are losing. You learn that Harrowmont is not a decisive leader and has no wish to be. You learn that dwarven politics are brutal, bloody, and dishonest and every single house is out for itself.  You learn that Harrowmont wants to "lead" by compromise, which is probably why his own men don't stand firm for him.

I don't think you need to metagame to see that Harrowmont would be a poor king.  It's just a matter of what you think is important for Orzammar, or really, more basically, who is a better bet to fight with you during the blight.

Modifié par ejoslin, 18 janvier 2011 - 08:29 .

[Cutlass Jack]

ejoslin wrote...

It's just a matter of what you think is important for Orzammar, or really, more basically, who is a better bet to fight with you during the blight.

Improving Orzammar was something outside the scope of my responsibility. It would be more important for the Dwarven backgrounds and I think the choices are easier there.

On the blight basis, I think Harrowmont is still the better sounding choice. I would expect a dwarven traditionalist to be more likely to honor a treaty signed by an ancient king than one who wants to throw out the old sytems. Especially when the latter does so not by by strong leadership but by deception and trickery. At the time the choice had to be made there was no evidence that Bhelen would honor his own promises, let alone that made by some past king.

Really both were hiding behind their people until you were fully comitted to their cause. So that wasn't really something that weighed on my decision.

[ejoslin]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

It's just a matter of what you think is important for Orzammar, or really, more basically, who is a better bet to fight with you during the blight.

Improving Orzammar was something outside the scope of my responsibility. It would be more important for the Dwarven backgrounds and I think the choices are easier there.

On the blight basis, I think Harrowmont is still the better sounding choice. I would expect a dwarven traditionalist to be more likely to honor a treaty signed by an ancient king than one who wants to throw out the old sytems. Especially when the latter does so not by by strong leadership but by deception and trickery. At the time the choice had to be made there was no evidence that Bhelen would honor his own promises, let alone that made by some past king.

Really both were hiding behind their people until you were fully comitted to their cause. So that wasn't really something that weighed on my decision.

Bhelen promises you troops.  Harrowmont promises to ask the assembly for the troops.  

I agree that the hiding is a non-issue -- what I felt WAS an issue was that Harrowmont's own guards and men refused to protect and fight for him.  How on earth was he going to get people who weren't behind him 100% t fight for the surfacers when his own people would not fight for him?

I didn't metagame at all to back Bhelen.

Modifié par ejoslin, 18 janvier 2011 - 10:21 .

[Sarah1281]

Never resting until the assembly agrees with it means not much will be getting done by the king until it happens. And its not safe to say anything at the time your forced to make the choice. There is no guarantee at the time Bhelen would have any better or worse luck. Or that he'd even try to honor the treaty.

Metagaming we know that nothing gets done under non-Anvil Harrowmont anyway and Orzammar is in bad shape if he does have the Anvil. In-game, several people tell you that the treaties are made with the king and only the king is authorized to send you troops. Bhelen promises that when he becomes king, he will give you troops. Harrowmont, for whatever reason, thinks that he should put it to a vote before a body that hasn't shown itself favorably in the 'getting things done in a timely manner' department instead of using his own kingly powers.

These points seem counter to one another. On one hand you are saying Harrowmonts deals were somehow bad, yet on the other you are saying its typical for dwarven politics. My opinion is that Harrowmonts deals were legal and registered with the Shaperate. Bhelen made forgeries intended to decieve. No nice way to spin that.

Who is trying to make it nice? Do you believe that if bribery is legal then it's okay? More to the point, if you tell Lady Dace that Harrowmont is cheating her she denies having made any deal at all which really seems to indicate that while he did give them both land, the fact that he bought their votes was not exactly legal and not exactly something everyone knew about. You can say that forgery is worse than bribery if you want but I find it difficult to get all worked up over the fact that Bhelen was trying to sabotage Harrowmont's buying of votes.

The Criers were a running joke about political advertising and not to be taken seriously.

That first part may very well be true. Some things (like Harrowmont literally kicking casteless in the streets or the GWs worshiping demons) are obviously not true but if Harrowmont's criers tell you that Bhelen is too involved with the casteless and that's why he's a bad candidate and Bhelen's criers tell you that Bhelen is involved with the casteless and thus he is a good candidate then I think it's safe to say that Bhelen is involved with the casteless. I mean, why would both sides make up the exact same lie about the exact same person?



For instance:

BCrier: News of the hour: Lord Harrowmont entrenched in the past! How long can he ignore that Orzammar must change to survive?

HCrier: News of the hour: Lord Bhelen promises radical changes that will offend the ancient Paragons! Have our traditions no value?

Conclusion: Harrowmont is pro-tradition while Bhelen is not. You can ask around (especially in the Shaperate) to find out what Orzammar tradition is.



BCrier: News of the hour: Support Lord Harrowmont at your own peril! Darkspawn will overrun Orzammar within the year if he becomes king, experts say!

HCrier: News of the hour: Support Lord Bhelen at your peril! Evidence suggests Lord Bhelen considering widespread military draft!

Conclusion: Bhelen is planningn on building the military and increasing expedition in Deep Roads. Harrowmont is not.



BCrier: News of the hour: Does Lord Harrowmont think that Orzammar can hold off the dwarves forever? The Assembly demands an answer!

HCrier: News of the hour: Is Lord Bhelen considering a dissolution of the ancient clans? He refuses to comment in the Assembly!

Conclusion: Bhelen and Harrowmont won't appear before the Assembly themselves (which we knew from the captain of the guard)



BCrier: Lord Bhelen is the voice of change and defense! Lord Harrowmont is the voice of stagnation and ruin!

HCrier: Lord Harrowmont is the voice of tradition and stability! Lord Bhelen is the voice of anarchy and ruin!

Conclusion: Yet again, Bhelen wants to bring change/possible anarchy and Harrowmont wants tradition/possible stagnation.



BCrier: Lord Bhelen's impending marriage to a casteless proves his dedication to change! No dwarf is without worth, he has been heard to say!

HCrier: Questions arise regarding Lord Bhelen's impending marriage to a casteless commoner! Favoritism to the casteless suspected!

Conclusion: Aside from the fact that Rica has heard nothing of this, Bhelen supports the casteless and will make use of them and thus imporve their lives regardless of if he is doing so out of the goodness of his heart or not.

Improving Orzammar was something outside the scope of my responsibility. It would be more important for the Dwarven backgrounds and I think the choices are easier there.

Well, if you don't care about Orzammar and just want the troops then I don't think it really matters who you pick. The king HAS to give you troops and you just need to put someone on the throne. It's only if you care at all about the fate of Orzammar that you should seriously consider picking Bhelen. (If you don't care about Orzammar, why let things like forgeries and kinslaying even remotely affect you?)

[LobselVith8]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

These points seem counter to one another. On one hand you are saying Harrowmonts deals were somehow bad, yet on the other you are saying its typical for dwarven politics. My opinion is that Harrowmonts deals were legal and registered with the Shaperate. Bhelen made forgeries intended to decieve. No nice way to spin that.

No, they don't. You're accusing Bhelen when we're discussing the actions of his second, VG, and it concerns two families who Harrowmont bought off so they would vote for him. You're ignoring that Lord Helmi openly admits that Harrowmont bought his family's vote.

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Also, as a human noble, I would not have heard the VO for Dwarven noble, so I would not have the same points of reference on their political system. Based on my own backstory (and the events of Ostragar) I would have an exceedingly low tolerance for those who use deception and trickery to gain power.

Which pertains to virtually every noble in Orzammar, so I don't see how you would have supported anyone.

Cutlass Jack wrote...

No, Confirmed by me. The original documents were in the Shaperate. You might argue that the Shaper was the '12th cousin on Harromonts wife's sister's side' (or whatever) and would have reason to lie. You might also know first hand from other dealings with the Shaper that he was such a stickler for the facts that he'd never lie about whats in the memories. Meanwhile the twins in the arena make no secret that they did exactly what they did and who they work for. And its easy enough to confirm the story the other fighter was told was a fabrication by virtue of you actually being there to begin with.

And Lord Helmi admits Harrowmont bought his family's vote when you show him the forged documents, so let's not pretend that Harrowmont is some sort of saint here.

Cutlass Jack wrote...

The Salesman near Dust Town only cares about gold and sees Bhelen as the best way to get it. He doesn't care about blood in the streets, only about himself. The Criers were a running joke about political advertising and not to be taken seriously. Neither is really a compelling counter to evidence I can find about what Bhelen did to his own family, and what he tasks me to do directly.

And yet both criers admitted that Harrowmont is against the casteless gaining any freedoms. That didn't tip you off the slightest bit?

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Which leads us back to the point of this topic. Without metagaming, Bhelen seems like an exceedingly poor choice, and one he doesn't help with. Thats the point I'm sure the developers were going with. That choices aren't always that clear cut.

Except for the criers who admit that Bhelen will help the casteless, the guard who mentions that Bhelen will take back the lost thaigs, the salesman who reveals that Bhelen will improve trade with the surface and go against tradition, and Bhelen who admits he'll send troops the moment he's declared King.

[Eber]

Sarah1281 wrote...

The Criers were a running joke about political advertising and not to be taken seriously.

That first part may very well be true. Some things (like Harrowmont literally kicking casteless in the streets or the GWs worshiping demons) are obviously not true but if Harrowmont's criers tell you that Bhelen is too involved with the casteless and that's why he's a bad candidate and Bhelen's criers tell you that Bhelen is involved with the casteless and thus he is a good candidate then I think it's safe to say that Bhelen is involved with the casteless. I mean, why would both sides make up the exact same lie about the exact same person?

For instance: ...

Good point and excellent examples.

[Gilsa]

Wereparrot wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

You know, I've seen people say this, but the epilogue says this:

In time, Harrowmont's health began to fail. Some claimed it was poison, while others said it was a flagging spirit. Either way, after a protracted illness, the king finally passed away. The wrangling in the Assembly for a successor began almost immediately.

I see nothing in there about becoming Harrowmont's heir.  Is there something in the in-game dialog?

I think I remember seeing something on the wiki about it. I may be talking rubbish, but I'll post it if I find it. 

This is one of those things people remember seeing somewhere, but can't find like a misplaced set of car keys. This dialogue is actually from Gorim when you talk to him after the ceremony. He says nothing about being heir to House Harrowmont, just that Harrowmont has appointed the DN as heir to House Aeducan. Easy to get confused.

Some like to reason that if it took the word of a paragon to settle the matter of Harrowmont vs. Bhelen, then wouldn't they want their only living paragon (DN) to help settle the throne once more? This would open itself up to quibbling about timeline issues of whether the paragonship happened before or after Harrowmont's death, etc, etc.

[Cutlass Jack]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except for the criers who admit that Bhelen will help the casteless, the guard who mentions that Bhelen will take back the lost thaigs, the salesman who reveals that Bhelen will improve trade with the surface and go against tradition, and Bhelen who admits he'll send troops the moment he's declared King.

You do alot of dancing about here, but you still don't answer the basic question: When absolutely every dealing involving Bhelen or his people involves him using trickery, deception and doing whatever it takes (even to his own family) to get the throne, why would you believe he'd honor his word once he's declared king?

People keep going on about Harrowmont's 'bribery' but the deals were above board and logged in the shaperate. There is no evidence whatsoever of him not honoring his word. Ever.

Of course I should point out you don't converse with either one of them directly prior to being forced to commit to a side. So it would be impossible to hear both their promises concerning aiding your cause anyway.

[Sarah1281]

You do alot of dancing about here, but you still don't answer the basic question: When absolutely every dealing involving Bhelen or his people involves him using trickery, deception and doing whatever it takes (even to his own family) to get the throne, why would you believe he'd honor his word once he's declared king?

Because we don't necessarily believe that he will honor his promise because it is a promise that he made and he believes in keeping promises. We believe that he will do it because he has been shown to take the darkspawn threat seriously (the mine guard comments that Bhelen wants to retake thaigs and Bhelen's criers talk about how Harrowmont will get them all overrun by darkspawn while Harrowmont's confrim Bhelen's greater commitment to fighting darkspawn by claiming he'll institute a draft) and he knows that a Blight would be the worst thing that could possibly happen to Orzammar. He will send troops because it is in his and Orzammar's best interest. If, say, there was no Blight and we weren't Wardens at all but in Eamon's employ to get dwarven troops for the civil war and Bhelen promised that he would give them to us in exchange for his throne then you might have a point about him not necessarily feeling the need to honor that promise. Sending soldiers to cut down a Blight in its infancy before it can return to threaten Orzammar? Why wouldn't he keep that promise? Him having no problem using deceit doesn't make him blind nor does it make him an idiot and he hasn't been shown to betray people and break his promises for the evulz.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Cutlass Jack wrote...
You do alot of dancing about here, but you still don't answer the basic question: When absolutely every dealing involving Bhelen or his people involves him using trickery, deception and doing whatever it takes (even to his own family) to get the throne, why would you believe he'd honor his word once he's declared king?

Barring the fact that I would trust a man who has a better chance of doing something more than someone who doesn't seem to have that capacity (disunited Assembly, him barely commanding the loyalty of his men) regardless of whether he is willing to or not, it's in Bhelen's interest to do this.

Clearly unlike Harrowmont, Bhelen is actually interested in the surface, both for Orzammar's interests and for the interests of his regime (reform without increase in income generally leads to disaster). I'd say that his alliance with merchants (and consequently, many noble houses who patronise them) to be a key pillar of his regime. The other is the casteless and the other dwarves would be more likely to accept the reforms if they get something material, like prosperity, to make them happy.

What can Orzammar export? Expensive Lyrium and high quality smithing and maybe other minerals (perhaps precious metals). Seems to me that all those are expensive goods that would require a functioning economy capable of buying them, for there to be any trade. So what's in Bhelen's interests? A ravaged or completely destroyed Ferelden? Or a Ferelden that can enter trading relations? Furthermore, we know that Bhelen has designs to expand in the deep roads. Wouldn't it be in his interests to help Ferelden, in order to ask for help in the future (which he gladly accepts)?
Also it makes no strategic sense for Orzammar to ignore the blight and wait till it comes towards it (which it would have).

In addition, a good war is always a nice way to stabilize a regime. What's the first thing Bhelen does? Sends the sons of Harrowmont supporters to the surface to fight and die. A war is a nice way to increase legitimacy. Furthermore, while this doesn't happen in the epilogue, apparently Bhelen is interested in Bemot who disolved the Assembly during a blight. Regardless, Bhelen leading Orzammar in a war, against the darkspawn no less, is beneficial to his regime.  

So I personally do not trust Bhelen to stay true to his word out of the kindness of his heart. Rather for his own self-interest and the interest of Orzammar. It's no more farfetched than to think that the Assembly which proved itself to be very divisive and in a self destructive manner is going to reach a consensus on the issue, or that Harrowmont who can barely command the loyalty of his champions and bodyguards, to be able to command an army. I'd say betting on Bhelen to be less risky. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 janvier 2011 - 02:54 .

[Cutlass Jack]

@Sarah:
Well the impression I got talking to the various dwarves was that Blights were 'surfacer problems.' That what we call a 'blight' is their Everyday Situation, and they'd enjoy the vaction while the Darkspawn are aboveground. So maybe he took the Darkspawn seriously or maybe not. Personally he made it hard for me to believe a word he said. Because the things I could prove painted him in a bad light.

But hey, you sold me. And you're completely right about him not betraying people. His own family would agree.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 19 janvier 2011 - 02:57 .

[ejoslin]

Not to mention, once the archdemon has rampaged on the surface, there's no reason why it would not turn on Orzammar. Defeating the blight is in everyone's best interest. A blight gives the Legion of the Dead a bit of breathing room (the absolute front line fighters), but that doesn't follow that a blight is good for Orzammar or that non-Legion dwarves think its' a good thing.  In fact, one of the dwarf guards to the deeproads is horrified when he realizes that there's a blight.

Modifié par ejoslin, 19 janvier 2011 - 03:02 .

[mousestalker]

Bhelen lies, he even murders. He is your classic power hungry sociopath, IMHO. On the other hand, he gets things done. His followers are loyal.



Harrowmount means well. But he can not seem to deliver. Ever. His followers desert him. He puts bribes on record. If you are the dwarf noble, you have reason to know he's ineffective in the Assembly.



Which one do you think will get you your troops?



Please keep in mind that the whole situation is a coin toss by design.

[mousestalker]

ejoslin, you also learn in Orzammar that the dwarves rely on the surface trade to survive. Even if they shut the gates to keep the surface horde out, they starve to death.

[Sarah1281]

But hey, you sold me. And you're completely right about him not betraying people. His own family would agree.

You apparently misinterpreted what I said. I didn't say he wasn't shown to betray people. I said he wasn't shown to betray people for the evulz. If he did do so, he had a reason. His own family was betrayed because Bhelen wanted the throne and possibly some resentment towards his siblings. Some dwarves don't see the significance of the Blight because I'm not sure that the fully understand what it is. What they say is that the Blights are the only times that the darkspawn come to the surface and they resent that the surface forgets that the darkspawn exist in between a few years or decades every couple generations. I really can't blame them for this resentment.

If the dwarves fully understood that the darkspawns' numbers increase and that they are far more intelligent, deadly, and organized during the time period that the Archdemon is active (and that they lost thier own kingdoms because of one such Blight) then it would be really really stupid of them to dismiss this as not their concern. Maybe it's not an immediate problem but if Ferelden falls then Orzammar is right there for them to turn their attention to.

Of course, maybe they are really that stupid. The Assembly certainly can't see beyond its own politics. Notably, the mine guards who actually do go down to the Deep Roads are terrified by the thought of a Blight. Not everyone is all 'oh, whatever, not our problem.' Bhelen is also, whatever else you might say about him, not an idiot. An idiot simply couldn't have pulled off his Xanatos Gambit in the DN origin no matter what kind of complications he faced later.

You can doubt Bhelen's assertion that the Legion of the Dead secretly support him and his claim that Harrowmont will be so weak on darkspawn that the city will be overrun. I think Harrowmont's own claim that Bhelen will implement a draft indicates is serious about the darkspawn. For some accusations, the candidates just make up things about each other. Others are rooted in truth that have been exaggerated and put in the worst possible light. Thus, Harrowmont is said to kick casteless in the streets while Bhelen defaces the Paragon statues. Harrowmont and Bhelen BOTH making claims that Bhelen is more serious about darkspawn than Harrowmont (through the claims that Harrowmont will let the city be swallowed up and Bhelen will start drafting respectively) means that that is probably true.

As such, it makes no sense whatsoever to betray someone who just gave you the throne and who needs your help to stop a Blight that could destroy your new kingdom. Bhelen doesn't betray people because it amuses him, he does it because he stands to gain something by it. What would he gain for not helping and then watching Ferelden fall and knowing Orzammar may be next? Plus, as Knight said, Bhelen does actually care about the surface as far as economy and trade goes. Letting Ferelden fall to the darkspawn and not honoring his promise would really be shooting himself in the foot here.

Edit: And please explain to me how "he hasn't been shown to betray people and break his promises for the evulz" is at all unclear. It says that he hasn't been shown to do A and B for the evulz. It doesn't say that he hasn't been shown to do A at all and B for the evulz. It's times like these that I really wonder if people just see 'he hasn't been shown to betray people' and immediately bring up the kinslaying without bothering to finish reading.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 19 janvier 2011 - 03:13 .

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Deadmac wrote...

I chose Harrowmont. Regardless about which one you pick, the Warden still gets some type of military support. When I was playing through, Bhelen's supporters seemed too radical.

Bhelen promises to give the Warden troops, Harrowmont promises to take it up with the Assembly - there's a difference. And of course Bhelen is radical - he wants to retake the lost thaigs, improve relations with the surface, and give the casteless rights. All Harrowmont does is keep tradition - in other words, leaving the casteless no options but to prostitute themselves to crime or sex. And if the Anvil is spared, Harrowmont sends his golem army to murder the men, women, and children in Dust Town because they protest the new restrictions he places on the casteless. I prefer the reformer Bhelen to the bigoted Harrowmont.

Yeah but we are talking about in-game excluding the epilogue what makes which one seem a more logical choice. The Dust Town Incident happened in the epilogue and we couldn't have anticipated he would do that