591 réponses à ce sujet

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Heck A Golem Bhelen would be awesome.. And his control rod just "happened" to end up in Harrowmonts hands who was freed from prison and his pending execution is now void.
Then he gets Bhelen to do tasks like scratch Harrowmonts ass for him because A King shouldn't have to do such things.

I imagine that would be the extent of Harrowmont's accomplishments as King.

That and being "The First  King in hundreds of years to lead a golem army against a blight!!"... Or however it went
and being the first to wear that epic crown. And if selected as King, he and not the warden will probably be remembered by the dwarves for shutting down the Carta, and finding Branka

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 01 février 2011 - 02:29 .

[shatteredstar56]

XxDeonxX wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Heck A Golem Bhelen would be awesome.. And his control rod just "happened" to end up in Harrowmonts hands who was freed from prison and his pending execution is now void.
Then he gets Bhelen to do tasks like scratch Harrowmonts ass for him because A King shouldn't have to do such things.

I imagine that would be the extent of Harrowmont's accomplishments as King.

That and being "The First  King in hundreds of years to lead a golem army against a blight!!"... Or however it went
and being the first to wear that epic crown. And if selected as King, he and not the warden will probably be remembered by the dwarves for shutting down the Carta, and finding Branka

I don't think Harrowmont would have had the balls to lead a golem army, because he was too gentle and wouldn't force people.  They might have taken volunteers, and then forced the casteless and criminals without his knowledge.  

[Elhanan]

shatteredstar56 wrote...

I don't think Harrowmont would have had the balls to lead a golem army, because he was too gentle and wouldn't force people.  They might have taken volunteers, and then forced the casteless and criminals without his knowledge.  

He doesn't have the golems either; never saved the Anvil when selecting Harrowmont. Why corrupt the honest King?

As for Bhelen, he might make a decent golem. At the very least, he would lose the catfish moustache.

[Augustei]

Elhanan wrote...

shatteredstar56 wrote...

I don't think Harrowmont would have had the balls to lead a golem army, because he was too gentle and wouldn't force people.  They might have taken volunteers, and then forced the casteless and criminals without his knowledge.  

He doesn't have the golems either; never saved the Anvil when selecting Harrowmont. Why corrupt the honest King?

As for Bhelen, he might make a decent golem. At the very least, he would lose the catfish moustache.

Yeah but you only know it will corrupt him if you metagame.. I generally dont like to Metagame myself and see that the golems will be very helpful with the Blight and reconquering the lost thaigs.
So I save the anvil.. But pick Harrowmont mainly because of the forged documents I was given by Bhelen and my warden doesn't lie.. Thats why he set the Darkspawn messenger free in Awakening after he said "Fight for us and I will show you mercy"

[shatteredstar56]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

shatteredstar56 wrote...

I don't think Harrowmont would have had the balls to lead a golem army, because he was too gentle and wouldn't force people.  They might have taken volunteers, and then forced the casteless and criminals without his knowledge.  

He doesn't have the golems either; never saved the Anvil when selecting Harrowmont. Why corrupt the honest King?

As for Bhelen, he might make a decent golem. At the very least, he would lose the catfish moustache.

Yeah but you only know it will corrupt him if you metagame.. I generally dont like to Metagame myself and see that the golems will be very helpful with the Blight and reconquering the lost thaigs.
So I save the anvil.. But pick Harrowmont mainly because of the forged documents I was given by Bhelen and my warden doesn't lie.. Thats why he set the Darkspawn messenger free in Awakening after he said "Fight for us and I will show you mercy"

Bhelen would have made a good golem, like Shale. Harrowmnt would have fed the birdies and let them sleep on him.  Bhelen's methods are hardly ethic and very questionable, but he does make a better king, I think.  Change doesn't come kindly, but the dwarves need to change to survive. Harrowmont and the old ways are old and won't help the dwarves make it another century.

[Elhanan]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Yeah but you only know it will corrupt him if you metagame.. I generally dont like to Metagame myself and see that the golems will be very helpful with the Blight and reconquering the lost thaigs.

So I save the anvil.. But pick Harrowmont mainly because of the forged documents I was given by Bhelen and my warden doesn't lie.. Thats why he set the Darkspawn messenger free in Awakening after he said "Fight for us and I will show you mercy"

No meta-gaming needed. Power/ Anvil corrupted Branka, power/ Anvil corrupted Caradin, power has already corrupted Bhelen, plus other examples from prior quests possibly seen before and within Orzammar. Only one of my evil Wardens saved the Anvil, and that was for Bhelen.

[Sarah1281]

Elhanan wrote...

shatteredstar56 wrote...

I don't think Harrowmont would have had the balls to lead a golem army, because he was too gentle and wouldn't force people.  They might have taken volunteers, and then forced the casteless and criminals without his knowledge.  

He doesn't have the golems either; never saved the Anvil when selecting Harrowmont. Why corrupt the honest King?

As for Bhelen, he might make a decent golem. At the very least, he would lose the catfish moustache.

You're assuming that he's corrupted by the Anvil and I don't see it that way. Harrowmont lacks the power to do anything without the Anvil. Give him the Anvil and he can rule as he'd like. Is it 'corrupting' him to give him the power that he would have had as king if he weren't dealing with a rebellion? 

Lacking the power to do horrible things that meta-gaming show you'll jump at the chance to do doesn't give you moral superiority.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 01 février 2011 - 06:09 .

[LobselVith8]

Elhanan wrote...

shatteredstar56 wrote...

I don't think Harrowmont would have had the balls to lead a golem army, because he was too gentle and wouldn't force people.  They might have taken volunteers, and then forced the casteless and criminals without his knowledge.  

He doesn't have the golems either; never saved the Anvil when selecting Harrowmont. Why corrupt the honest King?

As for Bhelen, he might make a decent golem. At the very least, he would lose the catfish moustache.

I didn't realize anyone forced King Harrowmont to have golems murder every man, woman, and child in Dust Town... or to deny the casteless rights so they could continue to be forced to prostitute themselves and commit crimes to survive... so much for the "honest King" of yours... the Paragon of Casteless-Killers perhaps...

[Ahriman Dragonhand]

This is one of the things I love from this game, so many choices everywhere that are not black or white. Neither Bhelen nor Harrowmont are entirely good or entirely evil, each of them has his pros and cons.

Except on my Dwarf Noble, that I RPed as wanting to strike back at his brother no matter what, I always chose Bhelen because he seems the better choice for a king. My Warden sees that as the real important thing here: he has to chose the better king not the nicest person. As Duncan  himself says in the mage origin, just being polite will not get you far. And if you chose Harrowmont the epilogue is pretty clear picturing him as a poor ruler.

As for the golems, during the game we learn their specifics aren't recorded properly by the dwarves. They are mostly remembered as an important of their army in their days of glory, so it's a safe assumption to think that both Bhelen and Harrowmont would want to use them if they had the chance.

Modifié par Ahriman Dragonhand, 01 février 2011 - 11:34 .

[Augustei]

I normally choose Bhelen as a Dwarf Noble. Because even though he dispises his brother for what he has done. He wants power to remain with his house. And he wants back in his house, He will plan to strike back at Bhelen later if he feels he can get the support of the assembly to become king himself.



Can Paragons become kings though?

[Sarah1281]

Can Paragons become kings though?

Why couldn't they? And Gorim says that the founder of House Bemot became king and paragon in one move from the Assembly and he was a commoner.

[ddv.rsa]

Once the DN becomes a paragon would s/he still be considered an Aeducan? It's a bit off-topic but XxDeonxX's post made me wonder.

[IanPolaris]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Once the DN becomes a paragon would s/he still be considered an Aeducan? It's a bit off-topic but XxDeonxX's post made me wonder.

I think so although his children wouldn't be.  I give you the example of Carradin who founded his own house of course, but was also considired and Ortan by many (including himself) even after he was a Paragon.

-Polaris

[Augustei]

Yeah I would form my own house and name it after the DN's first name. Twould be awesome

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

You're assuming that he's corrupted by the Anvil and I don't see it that way. Harrowmont lacks the power to do anything without the Anvil. Give him the Anvil and he can rule as he'd like. Is it 'corrupting' him to give him the power that he would have had as king if he weren't dealing with a rebellion? 

Lacking the power to do horrible things that meta-gaming show you'll jump at the chance to do doesn't give you moral superiority.

I believe you misunderstand me. I do not believe Harrowmont is a standard for moral superiority; just happens to appear to be superior to the other Dwarf running for the crown.

As for my moral beliefs, I have only saved the Anvil once: when I was RP a power hungry Mage, and needed the achievement.

[Elhanan]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I didn't realize anyone forced King Harrowmont to have golems murder every man, woman, and child in Dust Town... or to deny the casteless rights so they could continue to be forced to prostitute themselves and commit crimes to survive... so much for the "honest King" of yours... the Paragon of Casteless-Killers perhaps...

And I never realized that Harrowmont was soley responsible for the current state of social injustice. Long lifespan for that one perhaps. Maybe if he had killed more kin, he would have become a more noble leader, too.

[Sarah1281]

As for my moral beliefs, I have only saved the Anvil once: when I was RP a power hungry Mage, and needed the achievement.

I wasn't talking about YOUR morals. I used the word 'you' as a general applies to everybody phrase. I could have just as easily said 'Lacking the power to do horrible things that meta-gaming show Harrowmont'll jump at the chance to do doesn't give him moral superiority. '



And sure you're saying now that he's only good in comparison to Bhelen but what I was responding to was your outright stating that giving Harrowmont the Anvil would corrupt an honest king.

[Sarah1281]

And I never realized that Harrowmont was soley responsible for the current state of social injustice. Long lifespan for that one perhaps. Maybe if he had killed more kin, he would have become a more noble leader, too.

He doesn't HAVE to have been solely responsible. It's enough that he holds this system up as the ideal and wishes to perpetuate it. Bhelen's personal morality (and that of Harrowmont and everyone else in the game) really should be seperated from his ruling prowess. So Bhelen's not noble, so he's killed a few relatives. He's still the only one with both the desire and the power to try to save Orzammar.

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I wasn't talking about YOUR morals. I used the word 'you' as a general applies to everybody phrase. I could have just as easily said 'Lacking the power to do horrible things that meta-gaming show Harrowmont'll jump at the chance to do doesn't give him moral superiority. '

And sure you're saying now that he's only good in comparison to Bhelen but what I was responding to was your outright stating that giving Harrowmont the Anvil would corrupt an honest king.

As I mentioned, the Warden had seen enough corruption of power by the time he reached Orzammar. While he could not be certain Harrowmont would misuse the Anvil, seeing what Branka had done to her own House in her hatred of the Darkspawn was enough to tip any reasonable scale to convince him, as well as the vast majority of my Wardens.

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

He doesn't HAVE to have been solely responsible. It's enough that he holds this system up as the ideal and wishes to perpetuate it. Bhelen's personal morality (and that of Harrowmont and everyone else in the game) really should be seperated from his ruling prowess. So Bhelen's not noble, so he's killed a few relatives. He's still the only one with both the desire and the power to try to save Orzammar.

The same as almost every Dwarf in a Caste. And simply because Behlen is warming his bed with a Casteless is not enough for me to overlook murder to gain the throne.

[ddv.rsa]

Sarah1281 wrote...

He doesn't HAVE to have been solely responsible. It's enough that he holds this system up as the ideal and wishes to perpetuate it. Bhelen's personal morality (and that of Harrowmont and everyone else in the game) really should be seperated from his ruling prowess. So Bhelen's not noble, so he's killed a few relatives. He's still the only one with both the desire and the power to try to save Orzammar.

You criticise Harrowmont for wanting to perpetuate the current system, as if Bhelen suddenly abolishes it when he comes to power. He doesn't. He offers the casteless some rights in exchange for military service and deserves credit for that. But the caste system, with all its injustices, remains alive and well no matter who takes the throne.

[Augustei]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

He doesn't HAVE to have been solely responsible. It's enough that he holds this system up as the ideal and wishes to perpetuate it. Bhelen's personal morality (and that of Harrowmont and everyone else in the game) really should be seperated from his ruling prowess. So Bhelen's not noble, so he's killed a few relatives. He's still the only one with both the desire and the power to try to save Orzammar.

You criticise Harrowmont for wanting to perpetuate the current system, as if Bhelen suddenly abolishes it when he comes to power. He doesn't. He offers the casteless some rights in exchange for military service and deserves credit for that. But the caste system, with all its injustices, remains alive and well no matter who takes the throne.

Yeah even if he did manage to somehow get rid of the caste system completely.. It will just be put back in place upon Bhelens death

[Sarah1281]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

He doesn't HAVE to have been solely responsible. It's enough that he holds this system up as the ideal and wishes to perpetuate it. Bhelen's personal morality (and that of Harrowmont and everyone else in the game) really should be seperated from his ruling prowess. So Bhelen's not noble, so he's killed a few relatives. He's still the only one with both the desire and the power to try to save Orzammar.

You criticise Harrowmont for wanting to perpetuate the current system, as if Bhelen suddenly abolishes it when he comes to power. He doesn't. He offers the casteless some rights in exchange for military service and deserves credit for that. But the caste system, with all its injustices, remains alive and well no matter who takes the throne.

Of course Bhelen doesn't outright abolish the caste system. Exactly how well do you think that would go over? The nobles and warriors (maybe not all but enough) already have a problem with giving the casteless rights. There would probably be open rebellion if he tried to get rid of the caste system altogether. He has to slowly weaken it in order to be able to make it a lasting change. I can see the casteless keeping their right to fight darkspawn when Bhelen's successor takes the throne but I can't see the caste system being gone forever. It's just too powerful and a part of their society to get rid of outright. It has to be worked at. It's not idea but it's really the best that can be done.

[Costin_Razvan]

Based on what logic? That all that he built will fall apart after his death?



Take a look after Augustus. His reforms lasted for a very long time after he died.

[Raonar]

You all talk as though Bhelen actually WANTS the caste system and the castless gone. Please, like he cares. All he cares about is what gives him the idea that he's in control (and he doesn't take it well when he doesn't control something, as proven by how he attacks a PARAGON if Branka is given the Anvil).