591 réponses à ce sujet

[ArawnNox]

I think what Sarah is trying to get across, in short, is this: Behlen is untrustworthy, but betrayers betray when they stand to gain something. What would Behlen gain by betraying the Warden? Probably nothing.

[KnightofPhoenix]

XxDeonxX wrote...
Yeah but we are talking about in-game excluding the epilogue what makes which one seem a more logical choice. The Dust Town Incident happened in the epilogue and we couldn't have anticipated he would do that

He supports a system that considers the casteless below scum and practically non-existant. Why wouldn't he do something like that?

Do people base it on his nice exterior? Robespierre was a very nice and polite person too. 

[Augustei]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...
Yeah but we are talking about in-game excluding the epilogue what makes which one seem a more logical choice. The Dust Town Incident happened in the epilogue and we couldn't have anticipated he would do that

He supports a system that considers the casteless below scum and practically non-existant. Why wouldn't he do something like that?

Do people base it on his nice exterior? Robespierre was a very nice and polite person too. 

Theres not proof that says that he views them as below scum other then the crier saying he kicked one which is most likely hogwosh and another saying Bhelens support of castless is bad

[KnightofPhoenix]

XxDeonxX wrote...
Theres not proof that says that he views them as below scum other then the crier saying he kicked one which is most likely hogwosh and another saying Bhelens support of castless is bad

He supports the system and is a traditionalist. That's enough proof.

And even if he personally didn't feel this way, the nobility that he only wants to compromise to does, which results in the same thing.

[Zjarcal]

The fact that the Harrowmont's crier tries to use Bhelen's marriage to a casteless woman as negative propaganda, should make it clear enough that Harrowmont views the casteless as inferior.

[Sarah1281]

Theres not proof that says that he views them as below scum other then the crier saying he kicked one which is most likely hogwosh and another saying Bhelens support of castless is bad

Question: If Harrowmont did not view the casteless as scum then why in the world would his crier insist that Bhelen's support of them is bad? From a rational non-prejudiced viewpoint, how exactly is working to improve the lot of the casteless (especially if this also improves the lot of Orzammar as a whole) a bad thing?

[Joy Divison]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Do people base it on his nice exterior? Robespierre was a very nice and polite person too. 

That's actually funny.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Bhelen should have totally had me and Sarah as his criers

Ejoslin as the one who does the posters. Giggles as the one who parodies his opponents. Costin as the hitman.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Joy Divison wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Do people base it on his nice exterior? Robespierre was a very nice and polite person too. 

That's actually funny.

Well he was, on a person to person level.

[Addai]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Now I know that in the Epilogue he reforms the dwarven city into a better society and gives rights to the castless. But I mean, in game how is the warden supposed to think that Bhelen is the better choice?

(Husband)

I agree it took me multiple play throughs before I got around to siding with him.   In real life it is a huge warning signal to see such open corruption, and ruling with an iron hand.   If a person would do these things when they are up for consideration for a position, how much more would you fear that they would abuse their power once they have arrived in their place of coveted authority?   So initially I really couldn't vote for him anymore then I an American could vote for Joseph Stalin if I was forced between choosing him and Jimmy Carter or Neville Chamberlain.


In this way, the game is a bit artificial.   It's outcomes come seem more about trying to set up balance between different play styles rather than anything else.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I really fail to see how an ideologically motivated totalitarian is anything similar to Bhelen. Authoritarian =/= totalitarian.

And where's the corruption? It's in the Assembly.

[Creature 1]

XxDeonxX wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...
Yeah but we are talking about in-game excluding the epilogue what makes which one seem a more logical choice. The Dust Town Incident happened in the epilogue and we couldn't have anticipated he would do that

He supports a system that considers the casteless below scum and practically non-existant. Why wouldn't he do something like that?

Do people base it on his nice exterior? Robespierre was a very nice and polite person too. 

Theres not proof that says that he views them as below scum other then the crier saying he kicked one which is most likely hogwosh and another saying Bhelens support of castless is bad

Remember the dwarven woman who'd been kicked out of her family because she had a baby by a casteless man, and her family wanted her to kill the baby before they'd allow her to come back in off the streets?  Harrowmont likes the caste system, he has no problem with situations like this. 

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Bhelen should have totally had me and Sarah as his criers
Ejoslin as the one who does the posters. Giggles as the one who parodies his opponents. Costin as the hitman.

That would be so awesome.
I could be like my idol Rick Mercer. 

[Joy Divison]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well he was, on a person to person level.

I know.  That's why it came to a shock to most French Revolutionaries that it was Danton was the halfway reasonable one.

But yeah, I think it's pretty clear Behlen's the guy the GW wants to help.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 19 janvier 2011 - 04:26 .

[Cutlass Jack]

ArawnNox wrote...

I think what Sarah is trying to get across, in short, is this: Behlen is untrustworthy, but betrayers betray when they stand to gain something. What would Behlen gain by betraying the Warden? Probably nothing.

The same thing he got from betraying his own family: The Throne.

He showed pretty clearly there was no line he wouldn't cross in pursuit of that goal. And if he'd do what he did to his own family, then he'd certainly have no issues lying to a stranger. Especially if the alternative is the Warden assisting his competition. He'd say whatever he needed to.

[Sarah1281]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

ArawnNox wrote...

I think what Sarah is trying to get across, in short, is this: Behlen is untrustworthy, but betrayers betray when they stand to gain something. What would Behlen gain by betraying the Warden? Probably nothing.

The same thing he got from betraying his own family: The Throne.

He showed pretty clearly there was no line he wouldn't cross in pursuit of that goal. And if he'd do what he did to his own family, then he'd certainly have no issues lying to a stranger. Especially if the alternative is the Warden assisting his competition. He'd say whatever he needed to.

Yes, we all know Bhelen would say and do what was necessary to take the throne. We all know that he wants the Warden on his side to help him get the throne. This isn't a revelation to any of us.

How, exactly, does NOT sending troops to fight the Blight and letting the Blight potentially destroy Ferelden and then putting his own kingdom at risk as well as destroying the economy which is almost entirely trade-based benefit Bhelen? Why would he not help you given that if you fail, bad things will happen to Orzammar? You keep ignoring this basic question in favor of reminding us unnecessarily of the fact that Bhelen is willing to lie if the situation calls for it.

[ArawnNox]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

ArawnNox wrote...

I think what Sarah is trying to get across, in short, is this: Behlen is untrustworthy, but betrayers betray when they stand to gain something. What would Behlen gain by betraying the Warden? Probably nothing.

The same thing he got from betraying his own family: The Throne.

He showed pretty clearly there was no line he wouldn't cross in pursuit of that goal. And if he'd do what he did to his own family, then he'd certainly have no issues lying to a stranger. Especially if the alternative is the Warden assisting his competition. He'd say whatever he needed to.

I think you missed my point. He doesn't see you as someone he needs to stab in the back. You're a tool. A means to an end. If that means delivering troops to get what he wants, then he'll do it.
Think it through. If Behlen says, "Oh sorry, I'm not gonig to give you troops now." what good would that do him? Wardens are greatly respected by the dwarves, and he's no doubt taken into account that you'd bring up the treaty in the middle of the assembley after crowning him. If he went back on his word then, it would only weaken his position.
Behlen's not stupid. He knows a Warden is either a great asset or a great threat. Both sides know this. Consider how, after you've picked one side or another, their followers attack you in the street. There's nothing to suggest that orders came down from the top, but the actions of the mass reflect on the leader.
When you're attacked in the streat, THAT is the sign that either side is getting desperate.

[Cutlass Jack]

Sarah1281 wrote...

How, exactly, does NOT sending troops to fight the Blight and letting the Blight potentially destroy Ferelden and then putting his own kingdom at risk as well as destroying the economy which is almost entirely trade-based benefit Bhelen? Why would he not help you given that if you fail, bad things will happen to Orzammar? You keep ignoring this basic question in favor of reminding us unnecessarily of the fact that Bhelen is willing to lie if the situation calls for it.

The answer to that has nothing to do with the topic at hand really. The topic is why would the Warden decide to go with the completely untrustworthy Bhelen when there is a trustworthy choice available who follows dwarven traditions (like honoring treaties)

There is little doubt in my mind that the reasons he did honor his promises to the Warden were for the reasons you mentioned. But the Warden had no way of knowing at the time that Bhelen was intelligent or even sane at that point. He could have just been another obsessed dwarf (like the Paragon) who'd cross any line to achieve their goal without considering the consequences. Or he simply could decide his best interests lay with Loghain instead of the Wardens. Certainly the regent could make some very appealing trade agreements that the Wardens could not.

[IanPolaris]

Cutlass Jack,



There is a famous Klingon Saying (showing my Trekker roots) that goes as follows: Buy a murderer once and get a lifetime of service.



Bhelen is interested in his own power, his own regime, and his own throne not just in attaining it but keeping it. We all understand this. We all understand that he will lie, cheat, steal, and murder to get this.



It's these qualities given the political situation in Orzammar that make Bhelen trustworthy. If Bhelen goes back on sending troops to the warden DURING A BLIGHT, Bhelen won't last one day on the throne, and Bhelen knows it. Moreover, even outside that, it's in Bhelen's interest to stop a blight (especially if he can send his political enemies to the front line as well) because it makes him look good to his trading partners and strengthens Orzammar and to Bhelen that means strengthening him (esp when you consider that surface dwarves are technically castless and thus one more wedge to break the Assembly's power).



Basically Bhelen in his own narrow self interest has everything to gain by keeping his word and risks everything he valies if he does not. Thus you have bought a murderer and a lifetime of service....and in Orzammar, that's what is needed to be king.



-Polaris

[Markinator_123]

Harrowmont is a spineless idiot. Bhelen is a ruthless genius. Therefore, Bhelen is the good choice.

Modifié par Markinator_123, 19 janvier 2011 - 06:47 .

[Cutlass Jack]

I don't disagree with any of that Ian. But it involves knowledge the Warden (depending on Origin) doesn't really have at that point. Also, as I mentioned he might decided helping Loghain during the blight and betraying you would strengthen his position and trade arrangements more. He wouldnt have been the first person in the story to pick Loghain over the Warden, and they certainly do have some things in common...

Remember, I'm not questioning Bhelen's motives for ultimately honoring the treaty. Just the Warden's decision to trust him to do so at the time.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 19 janvier 2011 - 06:53 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

I suspect for many Wardens it's not so much a matter of trusting Bhelen will do as he promises, but believing Harrowmont either won't help at all or won't get his act together in time. Throughout Orzammar you can clearly see that Bhelen can command people to fight for him (or not to fight, in the case of Harrowmont's Proving champions).

I've never had a Warden who trusted Bhelen (except for my Duster, who 'trusted' he knew his lifespan depended on how he treated Rica. ).

Edit: I don't believe Wardens are given much reason in-game to trust Bhelen will do as he says. They are only given proof that if he wishes it, he is well and truly capable of keeping his promise to aid in the Blight. Harrowmont, while seemingly the trustworthy choice, is dubious in terms of capability.

Edit #2: My canon Warden went with Harrowmont largely because she didn't trust Bhelen; trying to pull the wool over her eyes in his first 'quest' to gain his trust was a mistake.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 19 janvier 2011 - 08:03 .

[Markinator_123]

Like I said Harrowmont is a spineless wuss. Look at when you first enter Orzammar and Bhelen's guy kills Harrowmont's guy. What does Harrowmont and his followers do? They run like cowards. What a joke! It really surprises that people actually pick that old piece of crap as king. When Bhelen called for his execution, I thought it was quite funny.

Modifié par Markinator_123, 19 janvier 2011 - 07:32 .

[Elhanan]

Markinator_123 wrote...

Like I said Harrowmont is a spineless wuss. Look at when you first enter Orzammar and Bhelen's guy kills Harrowmont's guy. What does Harrowmont and his followers do? They run like cowards. What a joke! It really surprises that people actually pick that old piece of crap as king. When Bhelen called for his execution, I thought it was quite funny.

As humorous as Bhelen being killed by Harrowmont in the Assemby?

Glad to see a few others choosing the better man in Harrowmont at the expense of a better epilogue.

[IanPolaris]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

I don't disagree with any of that Ian. But it involves knowledge the Warden (depending on Origin) doesn't really have at that point. Also, as I mentioned he might decided helping Loghain during the blight and betraying you would strengthen his position and trade arrangements more. He wouldnt have been the first person in the story to pick Loghain over the Warden, and they certainly do have some things in common...

Remember, I'm not questioning Bhelen's motives for ultimately honoring the treaty. Just the Warden's decision to trust him to do so at the time.

That isn't true.  Zev tells you straight up who is the strong leader of the two and who is not, no metagaming required.  Also both Nerev Helmi (from a pro-Harrowmount PoV) and the various merchants and even Lord Helmi in Tapsters all give the same picture of Bhelen.  He would do anything for his personal power and gain.....again without any metagaming at all, and it's quickly clear who is strong and who isn't.

Everything I said in my prior post does NOT depend on metagaming.  It an accurate assessment based on info given at the time of Bhelen's overall character.

-Polaris