591 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

I don't disagree with any of that Ian. But it involves knowledge the Warden (depending on Origin) doesn't really have at that point. Also, as I mentioned he might decided helping Loghain during the blight and betraying you would strengthen his position and trade arrangements more. He wouldnt have been the first person in the story to pick Loghain over the Warden, and they certainly do have some things in common...

Remember, I'm not questioning Bhelen's motives for ultimately honoring the treaty. Just the Warden's decision to trust him to do so at the time.

Orzammar doesn't have a treaty with Loghain.  It does with the Grey Wardens.  That matters in Dwarven politics where the appearance of honor is paramount.  Also the dwarves know perfectly well that Grey Wardens are needed to stop the blight so Loghain is a non-starter.  Honestly, supporting Loghain isn't even an issue.  Orzammar will support the wardens or support no one.

-Polaris

[Elhanan]

Loghain seems to have an ambassador in the palace post-election; seen during the Trial of Crows subquests.

[Sarah1281]

Elhanan wrote...

Markinator_123 wrote...

Like I said Harrowmont is a spineless wuss. Look at when you first enter Orzammar and Bhelen's guy kills Harrowmont's guy. What does Harrowmont and his followers do? They run like cowards. What a joke! It really surprises that people actually pick that old piece of crap as king. When Bhelen called for his execution, I thought it was quite funny.

As humorous as Bhelen being killed by Harrowmont in the Assemby?

Glad to see a few others choosing the better man in Harrowmont at the expense of a better epilogue.

Yes, it's always terribly heartwarming when someone chooses to let an entire nation continue to stagnate and die for the sake of having a leader who we don't know killed any relations.

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Yes, it's always terribly heartwarming when someone chooses to let an entire nation continue to stagnate and die for the sake of having a leader who we don't know killed any relations.

It does not die; still seen post-Epilogue in Golems DLC, Witch Hunt, etc. So meta-gaming or not, Harrowmont for the win....

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

It's even more heartwarming to know other people choose to cheer a leader who has no qualms about forcing people to go under the hammer of the Anvil of the Void.



So, yay, we all pick a choice of questionable 'goodness'!

[IanPolaris]

Elhanan wrote...

Loghain seems to have an ambassador in the palace post-election; seen during the Trial of Crows subquests.

Sure but so what?  [And actually the ambassador is there pre-election]  That doesn't mean that anyone in Orzammar on either side cares two coppers about Loghain.  It's support the Warden or stay off the surface.  You don't hear ANYONE try to use Loghain as leverage (which must be terribly frustrating for Loghain's ambassador).  Remember what happens to the ill-fated Imrek.  Grey Warden (any Grey Warden) easily trumps Loghain in Orzammar.  It's not even an issue.

-Polaris

[Sarah1281]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

It's even more heartwarming to know other people choose to cheer a leader who has no qualms about forcing people to go under the hammer of the Anvil of the Void.

So, yay, we all pick a choice of questionable 'goodness'!

Do we know that Bhelen does that? I'm not saying that he wouldn't but I got the impression that he and Branka had a falling out before they reached that point. And for that matter, I was keeping it within the realms of 'Anvil is destroyed' which is why I didn't mention anything about Harrowmont decimating Dust Town so badly the people of Orzammar who will still give you **** for being casteless even once you're a Warden actually complain about it or being so weak that he allows a war to break out because he can't say no to a Paragon and her kidnapping spree.

And Orzammar is dying. Just because Harrowmont does not see it die in his lifetime and it probably won't die in the Wardens' doesn't mean that if it continues down the same path it's been going down then it will continue to die the slow death it's been dying for generations. We can't count on a mythical future Bhelen-with-better-morals-than-Harrowmont to materialize. All we know and all we can affect is the choice right now. Bhelen makes changes that start to save Orzammar. Harrowmont does nothing and lets it continue to die. In the wake of that, what difference does a dead brother or two make? 

Modifié par Sarah1281, 19 janvier 2011 - 08:30 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

It's even more heartwarming to know other people choose to cheer a leader who has no qualms about forcing people to go under the hammer of the Anvil of the Void.

Do we know that Bhelen does that? I'm not saying that he wouldn't but I got the impression that he and Branka had a falling out before they reached that point.

Before they reached what point? Running out of genuine volunteers who didn't know they'd be signing up for an eternity without free will (not to mention a horrifying death)?

The wiki (not always correct, I know) claims that Bhelen does send non-volunteers, but I cannot confirm.

[Sarah1281]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

It's even more heartwarming to know other people choose to cheer a leader who has no qualms about forcing people to go under the hammer of the Anvil of the Void.

Do we know that Bhelen does that? I'm not saying that he wouldn't but I got the impression that he and Branka had a falling out before they reached that point.

Before they reached what point? Running out of genuine volunteers who didn't know they'd be signing up for an eternity without free will (not to mention a horrifying death)?

The wiki (not always correct, I know) claims that Bhelen does send non-volunteers, but I cannot confirm.

So now just using volunteers is grounds for someone to be a horrible person because they likely underestimate what it is to be a golem? Good grief...

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Sarah1281 wrote...

So now just using volunteers is grounds for someone to be a horrible person because they likely underestimate what it is to be a golem? Good grief...

Oh no, someone is rolling their eyes and sneering on the intrawebz. <_<

Nice comeback!

[Sarah1281]

I wasn't trying to have a good comeback. I said that I thought Branka and Bhelen split before Branka ran out of volunteers, you indicated that just using the Anvil at all was horrible because what happens to the volunteers is horrific and they can't understand properly, I disagreed, and it's 3 in the morning. I'm far too tired to attempt to be more tactful about disagreeing which is probably good as whenever I do it backfires horribly and people get more offended.

[Graspiloot]

Well its 10 in the morning here and time for another wave of bhelen supporters to take up the logical and tactful argumenting. ^^

Also perhaps its not always your fault if people get offended. People can get offended very easily if they hear things they dont like.



Also this nitpicking on "bad" things that Bhelen does is kinda pointless. We know he's not a moralist, but we prefer a good king over the sake of morals, if those morals are just based on the fact that the other is such a nice guy and fail to take in account that everything he stands for is not morally justified.

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Do we know that Bhelen does that? I'm not saying that he wouldn't but I got the impression that he and Branka had a falling out before they reached that point. And for that matter, I was keeping it within the realms of 'Anvil is destroyed' which is why I didn't mention anything about Harrowmont decimating Dust Town so badly the people of Orzammar who will still give you **** for being casteless even once you're a Warden actually complain about it or being so weak that he allows a war to break out because he can't say no to a Paragon and her kidnapping spree.

And Orzammar is dying. Just because Harrowmont does not see it die in his lifetime and it probably won't die in the Wardens' doesn't mean that if it continues down the same path it's been going down then it will continue to die the slow death it's been dying for generations. We can't count on a mythical future Bhelen-with-better-morals-than-Harrowmont to materialize. All we know and all we can affect is the choice right now. Bhelen makes changes that start to save Orzammar. Harrowmont does nothing and lets it continue to die. In the wake of that, what difference does a dead brother or two make? 

Guess it depends on who is playing one of those brothers. Personally, I prefer to choose to reveal Bhelen as a nug; keep Harrowmont., and save Orzammar with my own House.

And what difference indeed. You place the limit at two; Bhelen is already scored three and an assist to gain the throne. Life is cheap it seems in the new rule. Harrowmont may be prejudiced against the casteless, but at least his scorecard is zero murders to gain the Crown.

Modifié par Elhanan, 19 janvier 2011 - 10:46 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Sarah1281 wrote...

whenever I do it backfires horribly and people get more offended.

FYI, paraphrasing what you *thought* people were trying to say back to them, then following up with an equivalent of 'OMG, you believe that? *eyeroll*' is a good way to tick people off.

I'm sure you are capable of disagreeing without belittling, even at 3am.

[Cutlass Jack]

IanPolaris wrote...

That isn't true.  Zev tells you straight up who is the strong leader of the two and who is not, no metagaming required.  Also both Nerev Helmi (from a pro-Harrowmount PoV) and the various merchants and even Lord Helmi in Tapsters all give the same picture of Bhelen.  He would do anything for his personal power and gain.....again without any metagaming at all, and it's quickly clear who is strong and who isn't.

Everything I said in my prior post does NOT depend on metagaming.  It an accurate assessment based on info given at the time of Bhelen's overall character.

-Polaris

Well trusting the person who tried to assassinate you as to who would make the 'good' choice (the topic) seems...unlikely. At the risk of veering into another topic entirely, Zev isn't likely to be the trusted council of a Warden trying to make better moral choices through the game. At least at that juncture. Wynne would have been an entirely different story.

Personally, I don't feel that someone who resorts to dirty tricks to gain the throne is operating from a position of strength. A strong king wouldn't need to. But 'strong' wasn't even on my radar for either canidate. Both hid behind lackies, etc. So the choice came down to who I could trust more to honor the treaties. Bhelen does little to inspire trust.

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

It's even more heartwarming to know other people choose to cheer a leader who has no qualms about forcing people to go under the hammer of the Anvil of the Void.

So, yay, we all pick a choice of questionable 'goodness'!

Well the anvil is an entirely different decision really. If going for 'goodness' the anvil is likely to get destroyed anyways. I wouldn't trust anyone to use it wisely for all eternity. Even if they had good intentions, the next person on the throne might feel differently. So I don't really judge either one based on that. Absolute power corrupts absolutely and all that.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 19 janvier 2011 - 01:53 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Elhanan wrote...
Harrowmont may be prejudiced against the casteless, but at least his scorecard is zero murders to gain the Crown.

That's a very impressive resume. Really, I am in awe.
Orzammar should be really happy a few decades from his rule. I mean, sure he cut off trade even more, made caste restrictions even worse and then forced the casteless to remain in dust town like it's a concentration camp, then send golems to enforce this stupid policy instead of send them against the darkspawn to do what they were meant to do, and all the other ****ty policies his political genius managed to conjur up. But hey, at least he ain't a murderer!

That's a very comforting thought I am sure, when a casteless mother is forced to throw away her child  in the deep roads.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 janvier 2011 - 01:57 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Cutlass Jack wrote...
Personally, I don't feel that someone who resorts to dirty tricks to gain the throne is operating from a position of strength. A strong king wouldn't need to.

It's Orzammar. No one can afford not to do it (except a failure).

This really explans all of it

[Graspiloot]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Well trusting the person who tried to assassinate you as to who would make the 'good' choice (the topic) seems...unlikely. At the risk of veering into another topic entirely, Zev isn't likely to be the trusted council of a Warden trying to make better moral choices through the game. At least at that juncture. Wynne would have been an entirely different story.

Personally, I don't feel that someone who resorts to dirty tricks to gain the throne is operating from a position of strength. A strong king wouldn't need to. But 'strong' wasn't even on my radar for either canidate. Both hid behind lackies, etc. So the choice came down to who I could trust more to honor the treaties. Bhelen does little to inspire trust.

Again no replies to the dozens of arguments mentioned before that it is in Bhelens best interest to help you in the war, whereas Harrowmont has to ask the assembly.
Either respond to all relevant arguments or just don't respond..

[Cutlass Jack]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's Orzammar. No one can afford not to do it (except a failure).

This really explans all of it

Again, not a position of strength in the eyes of my Warden. Ruthlessness, Cunning, sure. Remember a surfacer warden didnt grow up seeing the placard of the Dwarven noble. Dwarven Wardens (ether type) operate from a substantially different viewpoint.

[Cutlass Jack]

Graspiloot wrote...

Again no replies to the dozens of arguments mentioned before that it is in Bhelens best interest to help you in the war, whereas Harrowmont has to ask the assembly.
Either respond to all relevant arguments or just don't respond..

I've already responded to it.

[Graspiloot]

No you just say hes not trustworthy, and we say he doesn't have to be. It is just in his best interest to help you against the blight. Therefore he will send the troops.

Also for non-dwarven wardens Orzammar is still worth helping since they are the first line of defense against the darkspawn.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Cutlass Jack wrote...
Again, not a position of strength in the eyes of my Warden. Ruthlessness, Cunning, sure. Remember a surfacer warden didnt grow up seeing the placard of the Dwarven noble. Dwarven Wardens (ether type) operate from a substantially different viewpoint.

Barring the fact that ruthless and cunning is strength in any political system that I can think of except Elhanan land, you have Bhelen on the offensive, and Harrowmont on the defensive, trying to get back his champions to fight for him by using an outsider (either a sign of desperation or a sign of idiocy), his men barely loyal to him....etc

Even if you don't see signs of Bhelen's strength and genius, the signs of Harrowmont's weakness are self-evident.

So you would trust a weakling who wants to do nothing except compromise with an Assembly that is irrationally divisive. I personally prefer to trust someone who I know (it doesn't take a genius to) that it's in his interest to fight a war. 
 
Anyways, gtg, cheers.

[Cutlass Jack]

Graspiloot wrote...

No you just say hes not trustworthy, and we say he doesn't have to be. It is just in his best interest to help you against the blight. Therefore he will send the troops.
Also for non-dwarven wardens Orzammar is still worth helping since they are the first line of defense against the darkspawn.

No I addressed the whole thing. But I'll repeat it just for you. What I said is I couldnt trust that he would decide it was in his best interests to help you. I never denied thats the reason he ultimately did decided to help you. Its a different thing.

For example, he might decide that Loghain is the better horse to back in the race. After all, you are just one person and Loghain controls army...and all surface trade he's so interested in. Turning you over to him would be one fabulous way to cement relations between them. Loghain certainly talks a good game about being able to get things done. Including stopping the Darkspawn. Better people than Bhelen have fallen for his story.

Or Bhelen could just be an insane idiot with who will say/do anything to get on the throne with no thought about repercussions once he's on it. We really dont know at that juncture. I'd be doubly dubious after meeting Branka.

Yes there might be good, logical reasons an untrustworthy Bhelen would decide its in his best interests. And I agree. What we can't trust is he'll actually follow the same train of logic. The only thing we can trust him to be is untrustworthy.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 19 janvier 2011 - 02:25 .

[Joy Divison]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Graspiloot wrote...

No you just say hes not trustworthy, and we say he doesn't have to be. It is just in his best interest to help you against the blight. Therefore he will send the troops.
Also for non-dwarven wardens Orzammar is still worth helping since they are the first line of defense against the darkspawn.

No I addressed the whole thing. But I'll repeat it just for you. What I said is I couldnt trust that he would decide it was in his best interests to help you. I never denied thats the reason he ultimately did decided to help you. Its a different thing.

For example, he might decide that Loghain is the better horse to back in the race. After all, you are just one person and Loghain controls army...and all surface trade he's so interested in. Turning you over to him would be one fabulous way to cement relations between them. Loghain certainly talks a good game about being able to get things done. Including stopping the Darkspawn. Better people than Bhelen have fallen for his story.

Or Bhelen could just be an insane idiot with who will say/do anything to get on the throne with no thought about repercussions once he's on it. We really dont know at that juncture. I'd be doubly dubious after meeting Branka.

Yes there might be good, logical reasons an untrustworthy Bhelen would decide its in his best interests. And I agree. What we can't trust is he'll actually follow the same train of logic. The only thing we can trust him to be is untrustworthy.

That's really clutching at straws.  You might not like Behlen because he came to throne by murder, and that's fine, but just admit that you are biased because you non-Dwarven sensibilities can't let you get over the fact and Harrowmont is a weak king.

If anything Harrowmont would be the more more liekly to hand you over to Logain because if the assembly decrreed that was preferable, he wouldn;t have the spine to say no.  Behlen has seen you actually accomplish things nobody in Orzammar could, and that include's Logain's idiot messenger who couldn't even get through the front door.  Behlen is smart, he recognizes strength.  I'd much rather count of him backing me (who has proved my strength and usefulness) than the windvane Harrowmont.

[Elhanan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

[That's a very impressive resume. Really, I am in awe.
Orzammar should be really happy a few decades from his rule. I mean, sure he cut off trade even more, made caste restrictions even worse and then forced the casteless to remain in dust town like it's a concentration camp, then send golems to enforce this stupid policy instead of send them against the darkspawn to do what they were meant to do, and all the other ****ty policies his political genius managed to conjur up. But hey, at least he ain't a murderer!

That's a very comforting thought I am sure, when a casteless mother is forced to throw away her child  in the deep roads.

Actually in my game, she can return to her family, go to the Chantry, etc; no Deeproads needed. And the practice is common in Orzammar, as it was with the Romans you seem to admire.

My Wardens attempt to change things, and very rarely choose Bhelen the kinslayer as the one to make such needed reform. We get the better man as King for now; proper reform for soon thereafter.