591 réponses à ce sujet

[mousestalker]

Hoary ****monger, hairy hapless hoplite
Addled advisor of aged Aeducan
Rueful, redeless, runty rascal
Repellant renegade, rude reptile
Overweight, overbearing orator
Witless wiper of worthless wankers
Muling mound of maundering mumbles
Obscene, obese obtuse orifice
Naïve nutter, nasty naff knave
Timid totterer, toothless toff.


Tired now, will do the other one later, maybe.

Modifié par mousestalker, 19 janvier 2011 - 03:15 .

[Cutlass Jack]

Joy Divison wrote...

That's really clutching at straws.  You might not like Behlen because he came to throne by murder, and that's fine, but just admit that you are biased because you non-Dwarven sensibilities can't let you get over the fact and Harrowmont is a weak king.

If anything Harrowmont would be the more more liekly to hand you over to Logain because if the assembly decrreed that was preferable, he wouldn;t have the spine to say no.  Behlen has seen you actually accomplish things nobody in Orzammar could, and that include's Logain's idiot messenger who couldn't even get through the front door.  Behlen is smart, he recognizes strength.  I'd much rather count of him backing me (who has proved my strength and usefulness) than the windvane Harrowmont.

Not clutching at straws at all. Say what you want about Harrowmont and dwarven culture, one thing is shown to be true. They're staunch traditionalists. They are mired in traditions and doing things the way they've always been done. For good or ill (in the case of the caste system) One of those traditions is that Wardens are the traditional allies of the Dwarves. So when push came to shove they'd honor the treaty. Tradition demands it.

Bhelen is about changing the old ways. (to suit himself) Tradition is clearly something he doen't believe in. He'll only back you if (and only if) he decides its in his best interests do do so...over other options. And clearly he was at least looking at those options. Loghain's ambassador was enjoying the comforts of his dead brother's bedroom. And his desire to improve trade relations with the surface world was never in question.

So to put it another way, Harrowmont is the 'safer' choice to honor the treaties. That is not the same as saying he's the strongest choice. But in my opinion they're both pretty weak.

[Elhanan]

We are biased because we choose the honest candidate over the one using any method at hand to win? Yep; guess I am at that.

And Bhelen is cunning; give him that. But I choose against his type of strength, too.

[Graspiloot]

Bribery is honest indeed! Although I guess in your Neverland anything is possible.

Also Cutlass Jack, Bhelen wants to improve trade with the surface. How would that be possible with the surface in ruins? You are acting as if Bhelen has ever acted irrational, but he has not, not in the game at least.

Modifié par Graspiloot, 19 janvier 2011 - 03:36 .

[Raonar]

Actually, Bhelen did act irrationally... when he attacked the assembly after Harrowmont was chosen king. I mean, he COULD have just waited until the wardens were gone and assassinated Harrowmont or something.



Just goes to show he is a spoiled brat that can't stand losing, even temporarily.

[Sarah1281]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...



whenever I do it backfires horribly and people get more offended.

FYI, paraphrasing what you *thought* people were trying to say back to them, then following up with an equivalent of 'OMG, you believe that? *eyeroll*' is a good way to tick people off.



I'm sure you are capable of disagreeing without belittling, even at 3am.

I wasn't trying to belittle you. When I said that I believed that Bhelen and Branka hadn't worked together long enough for them to run out of willing volunteers, you mentioned that the genuine volunteers didn't know that they'd be signing up for an eternity without free will and a horrible death. Since what we were talking about at that moment was the morality of the candidates, I understood that to mean that even using genuine volunteers was immoral so you could have put the most virtuous man in Orzammar on the throne but he still wouldn't have been a moral choice if you spared the Anvil. If I misunderstood what you were saying then I misunderstood what you were saying but I can't paraphrase something as something other than what I thought people said.



By saying 'good grief' I wasn't trying to belittle you. That was just my equivalent of 'I disagree with that' and maybe I could have just said that. I was just too exhausted to try to explain my position of Orzammar desperately needing the golems, the volunteers having to know about the control rods prior to this, the fact that if the volunteers give informed consent then I don't see going ahead with it as immoral, and that implying (or at least the way I interpreted it) that one of Bhelen's immoralities was simply using the Anvil when anyone would under the circumstances wasn't really fair.

[Cutlass Jack]

Graspiloot wrote...

Also Cutlass Jack, Bhelen wants to improve trade with the surface. How would that be possible with the surface in ruins? You are acting as if Bhelen has ever acted irrational, but he has not, not in the game at least.

As I said rather specifically above, there is more than one way he could decide to aid the surface. One of them involves aiding the Warden. The other method serves a dual purpose of improving trade relations.

Or he may share the opinion of that pro-Bhelen merchant who thinks there's plenty of surfacers so who cares if a few get killed? Not a good sign if you judge a man by his supporters.

[Elhanan]

Graspiloot wrote...

Bribery is honest indeed! Although I guess in your Neverland anything is possible.....

And you too may call me Balaam.

My Warden took a supposed bribe to help the Surface Dwarves, and I was glad to take the gold. I was going to be needing a larger purse as something was amiss, and as I would have helped anyway, the gold was simply a perk.

Yes; anything is possible when one has an imagination.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Elhanan wrote...
Actually in my game, she can return to her family, go to the Chantry, etc; no Deeproads needed.

All I have to say about that.

It's been discussed to death and I can no longer even pretend to take you seriously, sorry.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Cutlass Jack wrote...
Not clutching at straws at all. Say what you want about Harrowmont and dwarven culture, one thing is shown to be true. They're staunch traditionalists. They are mired in traditions and doing things the way they've always been done. For good or ill (in the case of the caste system) One of those traditions is that Wardens are the traditional allies of the Dwarves. So when push came to shove they'd honor the treaty. Tradition demands it.

If so, then why have to put it to the Assembly in the first place?
If Harrowmont was so keen to respect this tradition, why put the matter to a vote to an assembly that's clearly irrational and divisive?

Again, you are relying on a man that can't even keep his own ranks in line, and on an Assembly that are highly divisive and can't agree on a domestic issue let alone a foreign policy. Why do you think the nobility is mired in tradition? Because they love it? No, it's rather because it serves their interests (or what they percieve to be their self-interest, short sgihted fools that they are).

What's to say that the Assembly wouldn't declare that helping the Wardens is not in its interests?
They were the ones who backed Harrowmont in closing off trade and refusing help from the surface afterall (two very idiotic things to do). What's the indication that they are going to accept putting their warriors (warrior houses are patronised by nobles) at risk?

So I'd rather trust one man who I know it's in his best interest to help and who actually gives a damn about the surface, over a group of short sighted self interestested highly divisive nobles with a pathetic excuse of a king who can't even command the loyalty of his men.

EDIT: and we already explained why it would be in Bhelen's best interest to help you, without resorting to metagaming. All the indications were in the game.
As for Loghain, for the dwarves it's clear, the Wardens are needed and they are respected for it. Loghain wouldn't be someone Bhelen would bet on.

As for the ambassador in Trian's room. The city was clsoed off after Endrin died and Loghain already sent another messenger. Why send two? It seems more likely that this ambassador came before Endrin's death.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 janvier 2011 - 05:14 .

[Elhanan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Elhanan wrote...
Actually in my game, she can return to her family, go to the Chantry, etc; no Deeproads needed.

All I have to say about that.

It's been discussed to death and I can no longer even pretend to take you seriously, sorry.

HAHAHAHA! Evidently you skipped these options that occur IN THE GAME!!! And another to call me Balaam!

Modifié par Elhanan, 19 janvier 2011 - 05:33 .

[Cutlass Jack]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If so, then why have to put it to the Assembly in the first place?
If Harrowmont was so keen to respect this tradition, why put the matter to a vote to an assembly that's clearly irrational and divisive?

Again, you are relying on a man that can't even keep his own ranks in line, and on an Assembly that are highly divisive and can't agree on a domestic issue let alone a foreign policy. Why do you think the nobility is mired in tradition? Because they love it? No, it's rather because it serves their interests (or what they percieve to be their self-interest, short sgihted fools that they are).

What's to say that the Assembly wouldn't declare that helping the Wardens is not in its interests?
They were the ones who backed Harrowmont in closing off trade and refusing help from the surface afterall (two very idiotic things to do). What's the indication that they are going to accept putting their warriors (warrior houses are patronised by nobles) at risk?

So I'd rather trust one man who I know it's in his best interest to help and who actually gives a damn about the surface, over a group of short sighted self interestested highly divisive nobles with a pathetic excuse of a king who can't even command the loyalty of his men.

EDIT: and we already explained why it would be in Bhelen's best interest to help you, without resorting to metagaming. All the indications were in the game.
As for Loghain, for the dwarves it's clear, the Wardens are needed and they are respected for it. Loghain wouldn't be someone Bhelen would bet on.

As for the ambassador in Trian's room. The city was clsoed off after Endrin died and Loghain already sent another messenger. Why send two? It seems more likely that this ambassador came before Endrin's death.

You're putting a whole lot of trust that one man actually could bypass the the Assembly. If that were true he would have taken the throne on his own and assembly be damned. Instead he tries to work the various votes the same as Harrowmont. Not terribly convincing if you ask me.

And your not convincing me on Loghain either. On paper, he's the better choice for Bhelen to back.  He has armies, he has commerce. He's won wars. He's a Hero. The Wardens meanwhile were wiped out to a person in the last battle with the Darkspawn and are rumored to have killed the king. Loghain paints a very pretty picture many have fallen for in the course of the game. Bhelen could not be trusted to decide with the Warden given his potential for gain in not doing so.

But I think its safe to say at this point, we're just going to have to agree to disagree and be done with it.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 19 janvier 2011 - 05:39 .

[errant_knight]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Now I know that in the Epilogue he reforms the dwarven city into a better society and gives rights to the castless. But I mean, in game how is the warden supposed to think that Bhelen is the better choice?

He gives the warden forged notes to make harrowmont look bad. which seems like an act of desperation and makes it seem like he is loosing. Harrowmont's estate has a letter from Endrin which states his regret of casting out his son.
You hear of how Bhelen killed his brother, let his other one take the blame and possibly killed his father.
He is a fair bit of an ass.

The only redeeming factor is that he is seeing a castleless women, but this doesn't suggest a total reform. Is there any other reasons in game to be found for why Bhelen is the better choice? because he doesn't seem to be the stronger king really as many of the nobles disagree with him and he is willing to go to acts of desperation to try and get them on his site.

So excluding the Epilogue, since you can only find out of that sucess after the game is beat. What makes Bhelen seem like the more logical choice, what items can be found and people can be spoken to that suggest he is the better choice?

My wardens don't think he is. It turns out that way, but as far as they're concerned Bhelen is dishonorable, and likely a murderer, so they choose Harrowmont every time. Sadly, that doesn't work out that well, but I can never find enough in game to make him a logical choice.

[Elhanan]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

You're putting a whole lot of trust that one man actually could bypass the the Assembly. If that were true he would have taken the throne on his own and assembly be damned. Instead he tries to work the various votes the same as Harrowmont. Not terribly convincing if you ask me.

And your not convincing me on Loghain either. On paper, he's the better choice for Bhelen to back.  He has armies, he has commerce. He's won wars. He's a Hero. The Wardens meanwhile were wiped out to a person in the last battle with the Darkspawn and are rumored to have killed the king. Loghain paints a very pretty picture many have fallen for in the course of the game. Bhelen could not be trusted to decide with the Warden given his potential for gain in not doing so.

But I think its safe to say at this point, we're just going to have to agree to disagree and be done with it.

The informant for the Crows tells us that all our missions were to help the Warden, and to impede Loghain. So it would seem the Ambassador sent to Orzammar after the Warden clears the Roads was there to make a possible change in policy.

Bhelen could only be trusted to do what was best for Bhelen.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Cutlass Jack wrote...
You're putting a whole lot of trust that one man actually could bypass the the Assembly. If that were true he would have taken the throne on his own and assembly be damned. Instead he tries to work the various votes the same as Harrowmont. Not terribly convincing if you ask me.

You mean just do a coup d'etat and be done with it? That too wouldn't be in his self interest, he'd rather take power legally. But he could have tried a coup d'etat and without the Warden, I very much doubt Harrowmont could have done anything to stop him. It sounds more like an issue of wouldn't vs couldn't.

Yes, both are playing for votes. But what do we see?
We see Bhelen being very aggressive and on the offensive, neutralizing Harrowmont's support in both the nobility and the warriors.
What does Harrowmont do? Ask us to bring order back to his own ranks. And the only reason you are here is because you want military support. So either Harrowmont is extremily desperate about this, or actually thinks that asking the person who wants military assistance to help him prevent his men from defecting to be a good idea. In either case, Harrowmont looks incredibly weak and stupid. 

So of the two, who is more convincing?
Evidently Bhelen.

Cutlass Jack wrote...
And your not convincing me on Loghain either. On paper, he's the better choice for Bhelen to back.  He has armies, he has commerce. He's won wars. He's a Hero. The Wardens meanwhile were wiped out to a person in the last battle with the Darkspawn and are rumored to have killed the king. Loghain paints a very pretty picture many have fallen for in the course of the game. Bhelen could not be trusted to decide with the Warden given his potential for gain in not doing so.

Bhelen could have very well recognised that Loghain was exhausting his forces in the civil war and thus stood no chance at winning.
Hes a dwarf, he knows the value of Wardens and he probably knows that they have other treaties. He could have even learned that Orlesian wardens are close by too. 

So no, on paper Loghain is not the better chocie to back. Especially not with that idiotic messenger who is claiming that Orzammar has to abide by the decisions of "King" Loghain, as if it's not an independent country. I still have no idea who sent that messenger, but wow  was that stupid.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 janvier 2011 - 05:53 .

[LobselVith8]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

The answer to that has nothing to do with the topic at hand really. The topic is why would the Warden decide to go with the completely untrustworthy Bhelen when there is a trustworthy choice available who follows dwarven traditions (like honoring treaties)

How is Harrowmont trustworthy? The early quests we get are from their seconds, not themselves. It's impossible to say that Harrowmont or Bhelen are initially trustworthy when we're dealing with people who are allied with them as opposed to the politicians themselves. As for why a Warden wouldn't trust Harrowmont, all it takes is to listen to the criers to see that Harrowmont supports the caste system, so why would an elven Warden or a Warden from the Circle of Ferelden (or even both) want to ally with someone who oppresses people?

Cutlass Jack wrote...

There is little doubt in my mind that the reasons he did honor his promises to the Warden were for the reasons you mentioned. But the Warden had no way of knowing at the time that Bhelen was intelligent or even sane at that point. He could have just been another obsessed dwarf (like the Paragon) who'd cross any line to achieve their goal without considering the consequences. Or he simply could decide his best interests lay with Loghain instead of the Wardens. Certainly the regent could make some very appealing trade agreements that the Wardens could not.

Considering that Bhelen would certainly know that the Wardens have treaties with others, why would he ever he foolish enough to side with Loghain? It makes little sense, especially if the Warden has proved capable of going into the Deep Roads and emerging victorious.

If the Warden actually listens to the people in Orzammar and gets information about Harrowmont and Bhelen, then it isn't much of an issue to figure out who to side with. If Bhelen is willing to improve Orzammar by expanding their reach into the Deep Roads to retake the lost thaigs, improve trade with the surface (which can only happen if the darkspawn don't destroy everything there), and give the casteless rights and utilize them against the darkspawn, why would anyone side with a weak politician like Harrowmont? The same Harrowmont who says he'll take up the issue of the armies with the Assembly while Bhelen outright says he'll send the armies to aid the Warden.

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Edit #2: My canon Warden went with Harrowmont largely because she didn't trust Bhelen; trying to pull the wool over her eyes in his first 'quest' to gain his trust was a mistake.

That was Vartag Gavorn, not Bhelen.

Elhanan wrote...

Glad to see a few others choosing the better man in Harrowmont at the expense of a better epilogue.

You mean the bigot who has no problem murdering the men, women, and children of Dust Town with his golems?

Elhanan wrote...

It does not die; still seen post-Epilogue in Golems DLC, Witch Hunt, etc. So meta-gaming or not, Harrowmont for the win....

Actually, we don't see Orzammar in Golems or Witch Hunt, and Harrowmont's policies cut off the society from the surface and keep the casteless impoverished; that doesn't seem like much of a win to me.

[Elhanan]

We do not see Orzammar directly, but do have contact indirectly with the Shaperate via both mods, as well as DAA.

And I mean the bigot that saw fit to murder his brothers, aid in the death of his father, does nothing to stop his men from murdering another near the Hall of Paragons, and will order the execution of Harrowmont as his first act of rule. Does not seem like much of a man or King, to me.

[LobselVith8]

Elhanan wrote...

Actually in my game, she can return to her family, go to the Chantry, etc; no Deeproads needed. And the practice is common in Orzammar, as it was with the Romans you seem to admire.

KoP seems to be referring to the casteless in general, not just the one example of what many would be forced to do under Harrowmont's regime.

Elhanan wrote...

My Wardens attempt to change things, and very rarely choose Bhelen the kinslayer as the one to make such needed reform. We get the better man as King for now; proper reform for soon thereafter.

Better as in being an ineffective King who makes bigoted and bad decisions, and ends up leaving a power vacuum? And how exactly would your dwarven Paragon end up as the new King, considering there are other contenders to the throne and the Assembly isn't going to let you walk all over them? It doesn't sound like you'll become the new King when Bhelen's supporters are still alive and the other members of the Assembly will try gaining power for themselves.

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Not clutching at straws at all. Say what you want about Harrowmont and dwarven culture, one thing is shown to be true. They're staunch traditionalists. They are mired in traditions and doing things the way they've always been done. For good or ill (in the case of the caste system) One of those traditions is that Wardens are the traditional allies of the Dwarves. So when push came to shove they'd honor the treaty. Tradition demands it.

Except if the Assembly said no to aiding the Warden against the Blight, then Harrowmont wouldn't send troops to aid the Warden.

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Bhelen is about changing the old ways. (to suit himself) Tradition is clearly something he doen't believe in. He'll only back you if (and only if) he decides its in his best interests do do so...over other options. And clearly he was at least looking at those options. Loghain's ambassador was enjoying the comforts of his dead brother's bedroom. And his desire to improve trade relations with the surface world was never in question.

I doubt the casteless will care about why Bhelen gives them more freedoms, to be quite honest. And as for the ambassador to Loghain, I notice that none of Bhelen's guards do anything to prevent you from murdering them outright (despite how a guard will come to the Warden when it involves the incident with the dwarven robbers).

Cutlass Jack wrote...

So to put it another way, Harrowmont is the 'safer' choice to honor the treaties. That is not the same as saying he's the strongest choice. But in my opinion they're both pretty weak.

Harrowmont says he'll take up the issue with the Assembly. If they said no, then there would be no aid given. How is that even remotely safer than Bhelen, who outright says he'll give aid against the Blight?

Cutlass Jack wrote...

You're putting a whole lot of trust that one man actually could bypass the the Assembly. If that were true he would have taken the throne on his own and assembly be damned. Instead he tries to work the various votes the same as Harrowmont. Not terribly convincing if you ask me.

The treaty compels the King to send aid against the Blight. There's no reason Harrowmont needed to take the issue up with the Assembly.

Cutlass Jack wrote...

And your not convincing me on Loghain either. On paper, he's the better choice for Bhelen to back.  He has armies, he has commerce. He's won wars. He's a Hero. The Wardens meanwhile were wiped out to a person in the last battle with the Darkspawn and are rumored to have killed the king. Loghain paints a very pretty picture many have fallen for in the course of the game. Bhelen could not be trusted to decide with the Warden given his potential for gain in not doing so.

Except Bhelen obviously did side with the Wardens in canon, so your speculation is pretty moot. Bhelen says he will give aid, Harrowmont says he will take the issue up with the Assembly. Why side with a weak man when there is a strong canidate for the throne?

Elhanan wrote...

We do not see Orzammar directly, but do have contact indirectly with the Shaperate via both mods, as well as DAA.
And I mean the bigot that saw fit to murder his brothers, aid in the death of his father, does nothing to stop his men from murdering another near the Hall of Paragons, and will order the execution of Harrowmont as his first act of rule. Does not seem like much of a man or King, to me.

Except the epilogue makes it clear that Harrowmont leads Orzammar to the brink of disaster with his policies, and leaves a power struggle in the wake of his death.

Bhelen's actions lead to the death of two brothers. Harrowmont has no issue murdering an entire town of people. I fail to see how Harrowmont is better than Bhelen in this regard. And how is Bhelen a bigot when he's going to marry Rica and he gives the casteless rights?

[Cutlass Jack]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

You mean just do a coup d'etat and be done with it? That too wouldn't be in his self interest, he'd rather take power legally. But he could have tried a coup d'etat and without the Warden, I very much doubt Harrowmont could have done anything to stop him. It sounds more like an issue of wouldn't vs couldn't.

I'm going with Couldn't. Bhelen lacked the leadership abilities and strength of arm of his brother and father. He was forced to go with cunning. But regardless of the reason, if he went by the Assembly to gain the throne, there is no reason to believe he'd do otherwise to get them to go to war. That's just how politics are done there.

Yes, both are playing for votes. But what do we see?
We see Bhelen being very aggressive and on the offensive, neutralizing Harrowmont's support in both the nobility and the warriors.
What does Harrowmont do? Ask us to bring order back to his own ranks. And the only reason you are here is because you want military support. So either Harrowmont is extremily desperate about this, or actually thinks that asking the person who wants military assistance to help him prevent his men from defecting to be a good idea. In either case, Harrowmont looks incredibly weak and stupid. 

So of the two, who is more convincing?
Evidently Bhelen.

Thats more spin than anything else. Harrowmont asked the warden to investigate why they withdrew. Their reasons for withdrawing (trickery from Bhelen) had nothing to do with his actual leadership skills. Zero. That Bhelen took such an approach shows he was having far less success than Harrowmont in more traditional methods of gaining support. This doesn't really fill me with confidence that if it were put to a vote Bhelen would get the support he needed.

Bhelen could have very well recognised that Loghain was exhausting his forces in the civil war and thus stood no chance at winning.
Hes a dwarf, he knows the value of Wardens and he probably knows that they have other treaties. He could have even learned that Orlesian wardens are close by too. 

So no, on paper Loghain is not the better chocie to back. Especially not with that idiotic messenger who is claiming that Orzammar has to abide by the decisions of "King" Loghain, as if it's not an independent country. I still have no idea who sent that messenger, but wow  was that stupid.

I'm not sure how appraised he'd be on the actual reality of the situation, considering the City was sealed at the time with the ambassador within.

I will agree with you that the messenger was an idiot. But he never made it past the guards either.

[Elhanan]

LobselVith8 wrote...

KoP seems to be referring to the casteless in general, not just the one example of what many would be forced to do under Harrowmont's regime.

Same rule of law as the Aeducan's; just no kin killing.

Better as in being an ineffective King who makes bigoted and bad decisions, and ends up leaving a power vacuum? And how exactly would your dwarven Paragon end up as the new King, considering there are other contenders to the throne and the Assembly isn't going to let you walk all over them? It doesn't sound like you'll become the new King when Bhelen's supporters are still alive and the other members of the Assembly will try gaining power for themselves.

Bhelen's followers could likely be persuaded or coerced; not much to them that gold could not influence. And somtimes my Warden is King; sometimes a Paragon, and occasionally just a rather influential wqarden. But Bhelen is always dead.

Except if the Assembly said no to aiding the Warden against the Blight, then Harrowmont wouldn't send troops to aid the Warden.

I doubt the casteless will care about why Bhelen gives them more freedoms, to be quite honest. And as for the ambassador to Loghain, I notice that none of Bhelen's guards do anything to prevent you from murdering them outright (despite how a guard will come to the Warden when it involves the incident with the dwarven robbers).

Harrowmont says he'll take up the issue with the Assembly. If they said no, then there would be no aid given. How is that even remotely safer than Bhelen, who outright says he'll give aid against the Blight?

As I recall, Harrowmont is speaking as a candidate for the throne. But when he becomes King, his word will be enough. Bhelen is already convinced he will be King. He of course is wrong.

And perhaps the guards were bribed to stay away, either by the Crows as they are left to clean, or by Gavorn and his deepstalkers as they are possibly hanging around the King's chambers. Two birds; one visit.

The treaty compels the King to send aid against the Blight. There's no reason Harrowmont needed to take the issue up with the Assembly.

Exactly; Harrowmont is not getting ahead of himself, and is giving a truthful response as he is not yet King. And neither is Bhelen.

Except Bhelen obviously did side with the Wardens in canon, so your speculation is pretty moot. Bhelen says he will give aid, Harrowmont says he will take the issue up with the Assembly. Why side with a weak man when there is a strong canidate for the throne?

Because he has better morale credentials; no bloodstains on 'em.

Except the epilogue makes it clear that Harrowmont leads Orzammar to the brink of disaster with his policies, and leaves a power struggle in the wake of his death.

Bhelen's actions lead to the death of two brothers. Harrowmont has no issue murdering an entire town of people. I fail to see how Harrowmont is better than Bhelen in this regard. And how is Bhelen a bigot when he's going to marry Rica and he gives the casteless rights?

If Harrowmont becomes king and the Anvil is destroyed, he quickly finds himself in a protracted battle against Bhelen's rebellion that leaves him unable to gain the stability he needed. The clan lords object to many of his measures in the Assembly, and only his efforts to increase the dwarves' isolation from the surface meet with any success. In time, Harrowmont's health begins to fail. Some claim it was poison, while others say it is a flagging spirit. Either way, after a protracted illness, the king finally passes away. The wrangling in the Assembly for a successor begins almost immediately.

No brink seen here; just interference from Bhelen's bunch, and then more political fever.
Bigotry - 1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own. Bhelen exemplifies the word; pic to follow.

Modifié par Elhanan, 19 janvier 2011 - 07:08 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Next stop!

Mary Sue land!

[Cutlass Jack]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Harrowmont says he'll take up the issue with the Assembly. If they said no, then there would be no aid given. How is that even remotely safer than Bhelen, who outright says he'll give aid against the Blight?

You only quoted him halfway. He said when it was put before the assembly he would not rest until the Warden got the aid he seeked. Essentially he's saying the same thing as Bhelen. Just being more honest about mentioning the Assembly.

Except Bhelen obviously did side with the Wardens in canon, so your speculation is pretty moot. Bhelen says he will give aid, Harrowmont says he will take the issue up with the Assembly. Why side with a weak man when there is a strong canidate for the throne?

Thats metagaming. This thread isn't about what does happen. This thread is about how a 'good' warden would decide that Bhelen is the best way to go based on the information he currently has. Without Metagaming. And even from the endgame point of view, the 'weaker' man gives aid. So speculation about Harrowmont delivering is equally moot if you're looking at it from that angle.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 19 janvier 2011 - 07:40 .

[IanPolaris]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Harrowmont says he'll take up the issue with the Assembly. If they said no, then there would be no aid given. How is that even remotely safer than Bhelen, who outright says he'll give aid against the Blight?

You only quoted him halfway. He said when it was put before the assembly he would not rest until the Warden got the aid he seeked. Essentially he's saying the same thing as Bhelen. Just being more honest about mentioning the Assembly.

No it's not.  He said much the same thing to the DN about getting him a trial, and look how that turned out.  Promising he won't rest until the Assembly approves troops is NOT the same thing as stating that by the "Mail of his Ancestors" you will get the troops you need.  Big difference.

Except Bhelen obviously did side with the Wardens in canon, so your speculation is pretty moot. Bhelen says he will give aid, Harrowmont says he will take the issue up with the Assembly. Why side with a weak man when there is a strong canidate for the throne?

Thats metagaming. This thread isn't about what does happen. This thread is about how a 'good' warden would decide that Bhelen is the best way to go based on the information he currently has. Without Metagaming. And even from the endgame point of view, the 'weaker' man gives aid. So speculation about Harrowmont delivering is equally moot if you're looking at it from that angle.

We've given you lots of good reasoins why a good (and certainly a neutral) warden can and arguably should pick Bhelen without metagaming.  Yes you actually have to pay attention to the game world and heaven forbid, dig a little, but it's there.  No metagaming required.

-Polaris

[Elhanan]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Next stop!
Mary Sue land!

Sorry, but Island of Misfits has already been done. Bumbles bounce! Bhelens don't.....

They keep giving the same spinned take on rumors, gossip, and political hype to justify choosing Bhelen. But is is Camp Bhelen that gives us the hard evidence used to deny him the crown. Harrowmont is the good choice; Bhelen is for the epilogue of choice.

Modifié par Elhanan, 19 janvier 2011 - 08:04 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Elhanan wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Next stop!
Mary Sue land!

Sorry, but Island of Misfits has already been done. Bumbles bounce! Bhelens don't.....