591 réponses à ce sujet

[Cutlass Jack]

IanPolaris wrote...

No it's not.  He said much the same thing to the DN about getting him a trial, and look how that turned out.  Promising he won't rest until the Assembly approves troops is NOT the same thing as stating that by the "Mail of his Ancestors" you will get the troops you need.  Big difference.

He wasn't king at that juncture. And a non-DN noble wouldn't have access to that info. So we're comparing a less forceful statement by an honest man to a firm statement from a man of dubious character. Works out to the same thing really.

We've given you lots of good reasoins why a good (and certainly a neutral) warden can and arguably should pick Bhelen without metagaming.  Yes you actually have to pay attention to the game world and heaven forbid, dig a little, but it's there.  No metagaming required.

There honestly has yet to be a satisfatory reason stated for a good warden to even slightly consider backing Bhelen. Unless they weren't paying attention and didn't dig around concerning his character. The closest we come is concerning the castless, but it feels to me like another political angle he's playing, rather than an honest commitment to help them. My expectation would be he'd send them to aid in the war instead of more seasoned troops.

There is no question a Warden who is more neutral etc. would have little trouble backing Bhelen without metagaming.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 19 janvier 2011 - 08:26 .

[Sarah1281]

There honestly has yet to be a satisfatory reason stated for a good warden to even slightly consider backing Bhelen.

If by 'good Warden' you mean 'Warden who is more concerned with the personal morality of his allies than of what they're plans are.' If Bhelen wants to help the casteless because he thinks it will further his agenda then the casteless will be helped and we don't really need him to do it because he is truly moved by their plight.

[IanPolaris]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

No it's not.  He said much the same thing to the DN about getting him a trial, and look how that turned out.  Promising he won't rest until the Assembly approves troops is NOT the same thing as stating that by the "Mail of his Ancestors" you will get the troops you need.  Big difference.

He wasn't king at that juncture. And a non-DN noble wouldn't have access to that info. So we're comparing a less forceful statement by an honest man to a firm statement from a man of dubious character. Works out to the same thing really.

An honest man who is caught buying votes and bribing houses?  Harrowmount is many things but honest isn't one of them.  He may be more honorable than Bhelen but in Orzammar that isn't necessarily a good thing.  In addition, Bhelen gives you an ironclad guarantee...something you can use against him in the Assembly if he renegs (and yes Grey Wardens are considered honorary nobles and thus can address the Assembly).  Harrowmount does not.  Big difference.

We've given you lots of good reasoins why a good (and certainly a neutral) warden can and arguably should pick Bhelen without metagaming.  Yes you actually have to pay attention to the game world and heaven forbid, dig a little, but it's there.  No metagaming required.

There honestly has yet to be a satisfatory reason stated for a good warden to even slightly consider backing Bhelen. Unless they weren't paying attention and didn't dig around concerning his character. The closest we come is concerning the castless, but it feels to me like another political angle he's playing, rather than an honest commitment to help them. My expectation would be he'd send them to aid in the war instead of more seasoned troops.

There is no question a Warden who is more neutral etc. would have little trouble backing Bhelen without metagaming.

The signs that Harrowmount is a weak leader and not what you need are found all over the place if you bother to look.  No meta required.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Sarah1281 wrote...

There honestly has yet to be a satisfatory reason stated for a good warden to even slightly consider backing Bhelen.

If by 'good Warden' you mean 'Warden who is more concerned with the personal morality of his allies than of what they're plans are.' If Bhelen wants to help the casteless because he thinks it will further his agenda then the casteless will be helped and we don't really need him to do it because he is truly moved by their plight.

Agreed, it's sort of like a man trying to seduce a pretty girl.  He doesn't care why she jumps into bed with him as long as she does

-Polaris

[Cutlass Jack]

Sarah1281 wrote...

If by 'good Warden' you mean 'Warden who is more concerned with the personal morality of his allies than of what they're plans are.' If Bhelen wants to help the casteless because he thinks it will further his agenda then the casteless will be helped and we don't really need him to do it because he is truly moved by their plight.

Unless he says he's out to help them and sends them all off to die vs. the Darkspawn. Or says he's going to help them and ultimately doesn't follow through on any level.

You are correct in that if he does really help them, it doesn't matter the motivation. But what I meant was that it sounded more like a political promise rather than a true commitment. I'm sure you must be at least slightly familiar with politicians in the real world who make promises to get certain groups to support them and for whatever reason dont follow through as expected.

[Nerevar-as]

Bhelen appears to be the worse of the two even by his looks. He has an "evil" expression, while Harrowmont looks an honorable old dwarf. But in Orzammar everybody plays the Game of Thrones.

[Giggles_Manically]

It seems to be going this way:

Good Warden: OMG! Bhelen is such a bad man! My honor it burns! I must go and support Harrowmont!
Me: You do know that Harrowmont supports a bigoted corrupt and oppressive system right?
GW: WHO CARES! Bhelen is so evil it burns my very soul!
Me: You do also realize that Harrowmont is a weak old tradition bound man who can not even see that Orzamar is going to die if it stays as is?
GW: But Bhelen does mean things!
Me; Like every other noble you mean?
GW: HARROWMONT FTW!
Me:

So it looks like the man who thinks a good chunk of people are scum, who supports a system that is pushing Orzamar to the brink of extinction, and has no leadership abilities over his men really does make the best leader!

No matter how many must die all that matters is:
Do you feel nice and honorable at the end of the day? 

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 19 janvier 2011 - 08:58 .

[Cutlass Jack]

IanPolaris wrote...

An honest man who is caught buying votes and bribing houses?  Harrowmount is many things but honest isn't one of them.  He may be more honorable than Bhelen but in Orzammar that isn't necessarily a good thing.  In addition, Bhelen gives you an ironclad guarantee...something you can use against him in the Assembly if he renegs (and yes Grey Wardens are considered honorary nobles and thus can address the Assembly).  Harrowmount does not.  Big difference.

You got a written guarantee from Bhelen? Honest question. Because I dont think going to the assembly complaining about a verbal contract sworn on an old suit of armor is going to get you very far. If you got it in writing and registered in the shaperate, thats another story. I'll gladly surrender the point if so.

The signs that Harrowmount is a weak leader and not what you need are found all over the place if you bother to look.  No meta required.

But in the process of digging around for that you'd no doubt determine that Bhelen is a bad bad man, and is asking you to knowingly pass off forged documents. Technchally a non-good act. Not an issue for a neutral warden.

[thesuperdarkone]

Adding to this discussion, Harrowmont isn't an entirely honest man who will do ruthless things like sending assassins after you in the Deep Roads if you go against him. Looks like he isn't entirely pure

[Sarah1281]

You are correct in that if he does really help them, it doesn't matter the motivation. But what I meant was that it sounded more like a political promise rather than a true commitment. I'm sure you must be at least slightly familiar with politicians in the real world who make promises to get certain groups to support them and for whatever reason dont follow through as expected.

Political promises are made because they look good and will get them support. Any indication that Bhelen would be interested in improving life for the casteless is not going to be a popular position (the greatest honor the servants have is that at least they aren't casteless, for instance) especially for the nobles who are the ones who can make him king or not. He's not going to make a false promise to do anything to improve the lives of the casteless and expect to win support from anybody except maybe Lord Helmi if he's willing to go against his mother's wishes. Far from it, had he told the Assembly that he was planning on giving them rights in exchange for using the additional right he was giving them to take up arms against the darkspawn, he would never have won. The fact that we're hearing a little - though really just a hint - of his plans to lessen the oppression of the casteless means that he's either serious or he's apparently never met his fellow nobles.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Cutlass Jack wrote...
I'm going with Couldn't. Bhelen lacked the leadership abilities and strength of arm of his brother and father. He was forced to go with cunning. But regardless of the reason, if he went by the Assembly to gain the throne, there is no reason to believe he'd do otherwise to get them to go to war. That's just how politics are done there.

Only because Endrin never cared about him. That is not a show of weakness on Bhelen's part, but rather poor judgement from Endrin. And cunning is an essential component to good leadership and all the great leaders that I can think of, had cunning. 

Because the guard outright tells you that only the king can approve of sending armies to the surface. So it's clear that the king can order the mobilization of forces (and that's what happens, Bhelen doesn't vote on it). Harrowmont in his conception of a minimalist king says otherwise, but I am going to trust the military guy who is supposed to know about this.

Thats more spin than anything else. Harrowmont asked the warden to investigate why they withdrew. Their reasons for withdrawing (trickery from Bhelen) had nothing to do with his actual leadership skills. Zero. That Bhelen took such an approach shows he was having far less success than Harrowmont in more traditional methods of gaining support. This doesn't really fill me with confidence that if it were put to a vote Bhelen would get the support he needed.

They had. If you have a strong leader capable and willing to punish any desertion, it doesn't matter what reasons you had, you would know that deserting will be severily punished. Likewise if you had a strong leader capable of instilling devotion and absolute loyalty, they would never have backed down from the fight, for rather stupid reasons (one of them withdrew because he was told that Harrowmont gave up...really?).

Second. Think about it for a second. You have a person who wants military support and you think it's a good idea to send him to investigate why your own men are deserting you? How does that make any sense? How will that inspire any confidence in your leadership? That person came here expecting you to be able to lead armies, and you tell him that you can't even manage a few of your champions who are supposed to be your best and most loyal followers?

If someone was defecting in Bhelen's camp, what do you think he would have done? Make the defector disapear and replace him with another immediately. Not ask the warden who came here expecting military support, to help you solve a problem in your own rank concerning a military matter. That's just political incompetence and idiocy. 

Also, this IS the traditional way of playing Dwarven politics. It's informal, but it had always been there. You seem to think that Orzammar's politics function as a fair contest between two canditates. That's not the case, it's cutthroat politics. Bhelen was not doing anything new, he was just better at it.

I'm not sure how appraised he'd be on the actual reality of the situation, considering the City was sealed at the time with the ambassador within.

The guards can always come in the city for news. Bhelen is no idiot.
There are human gossipers and traders out there and they surely must have brought news.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 janvier 2011 - 09:53 .

[LobselVith8]

Elhanan wrote...

Same rule of law as the Aeducan's; just no kin killing.

He's merely willing to murder an entire district of innocent people. Wow, what a guy Harrowmont is.

Elhanan wrote...

Bhelen's followers could likely be persuaded or coerced; not much to them that gold could not influence. And somtimes my Warden is King; sometimes a Paragon, and occasionally just a rather influential wqarden. But Bhelen is always dead.

Your Warden is never King. That's the problem. You have no feasible plan to take the throne besides hoping everyone will nominate and elect you.

Elhanan wrote...

As I recall, Harrowmont is speaking as a candidate for the throne. But when he becomes King, his word will be enough. Bhelen is already convinced he will be King. He of course is wrong.

His word? Wow. I'm not willing to gamble the fate of Ferelden on one man's word to take the issue up with a group of people who are always fighting amongst each other.

Elhanan wrote...

And perhaps the guards were bribed to stay away, either by the Crows as they are left to clean, or by Gavorn and his deepstalkers as they are possibly hanging around the King's chambers. Two birds; one visit.

That sounds like a lot of fanwanking.

Elhanan wrote...

Exactly; Harrowmont is not getting ahead of himself, and is giving a truthful response as he is not yet King. And neither is Bhelen.

No, Bhelen is obliged to send aid as King as due to the terms of the treaty. Harrowmont is too weak to do anything but ask the Assembly to make the decision.

Elhanan wrote...

Because he has better morale credentials; no bloodstains on 'em.

Except for Harrowmont murdering everyone in Dust Town, of course.

Elhanan wrote...

If Harrowmont becomes king and the Anvil is destroyed, he quickly finds himself in a protracted battle against Bhelen's rebellion that leaves him unable to gain the stability he needed. The clan lords object to many of his measures in the Assembly, and only his efforts to increase the dwarves' isolation from the surface meet with any success. In time, Harrowmont's health begins to fail. Some claim it was poison, while others say it is a flagging spirit. Either way, after a protracted illness, the king finally passes away. The wrangling in the Assembly for a successor begins almost immediately.

And that doesn't change what he would do if he had the Anvil. In fact, the epilogue even confirms that you're unlikely to become King because of the fighting that transpires for the throne.

Cutlass Jack wrote...

You only quoted him halfway. He said when it was put before the assembly he would not rest until the Warden got the aid he seeked. Essentially he's saying the same thing as Bhelen. Just being more honest about mentioning the Assembly.

No, Bhelen is saying he'll give aid, which a King can do because the treaty only compels the King to aid the GWs against a Blight. Harrowmont is saying he'll take up the issue with the Assembly, and if they repeatedly said no, then your Warden is pretty much screwed.

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Thats metagaming. This thread isn't about what does happen. This thread is about how a 'good' warden would decide that Bhelen is the best way to go based on the information he currently has. Without Metagaming. And even from the endgame point of view, the 'weaker' man gives aid. So speculation about Harrowmont delivering is equally moot if you're looking at it from that angle.

Metagaming? The criers mention Harrowmont's bigotry against the casteless, the guard near the Deep Roads mentions Bhelen's desire to reclaim the lost thaigs, and the salesman near Dust Town reveals how Bhelen is going to increase trade. Considering Harrowmont (when spoken to directly) only promises to take the issue up with the Assembly, it's clear that he's a weak choice and that he'll be a bad King.

[IanPolaris]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

An honest man who is caught buying votes and bribing houses?  Harrowmount is many things but honest isn't one of them.  He may be more honorable than Bhelen but in Orzammar that isn't necessarily a good thing.  In addition, Bhelen gives you an ironclad guarantee...something you can use against him in the Assembly if he renegs (and yes Grey Wardens are considered honorary nobles and thus can address the Assembly).  Harrowmount does not.  Big difference.

You got a written guarantee from Bhelen? Honest question. Because I dont think going to the assembly complaining about a verbal contract sworn on an old suit of armor is going to get you very far. If you got it in writing and registered in the shaperate, thats another story. I'll gladly surrender the point if so.

Doesn't matter.  You know why it doesn't matter?  The Assembly has NO SAY as to whether or not troops get sent to the surface.  You can ask the guards about that or the Shaper of Memories can confirm it as well (precendent set by King Bemot).  Harrowmount is a weak person who can't find it within himself to promise what the kingship would deliver which tells you everything you need to know.

When you award the crown, you can outright demand that Bhelen give you troops and he agrees without hesitation.  In front of God and everyone.  If he didn't he would look like an ass given how Grey Wardens are respected in Orzammar and Bhelen wouldn't remain king for a day.

The signs that Harrowmount is a weak leader and not what you need are found all over the place if you bother to look.  No meta required.

But in the process of digging around for that you'd no doubt determine that Bhelen is a bad bad man, and is asking you to knowingly pass off forged documents. Technchally a non-good act. Not an issue for a neutral warden.

So what?  Better to buy a murderer for a lifetime who is strong enough to be useful rather than an honorable (and Harrowmount isn't very honorable either) idiot who is too weak to be useful.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 19 janvier 2011 - 10:25 .

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Same rule of law as the Aeducan's; just no kin killing.

He's merely willing to murder an entire district of innocent people. Wow, what a guy Harrowmont is.

Elhanan wrote...

Bhelen's followers could likely be persuaded or coerced; not much to them that gold could not influence. And somtimes my Warden is King; sometimes a Paragon, and occasionally just a rather influential wqarden. But Bhelen is always dead.

Your Warden is never King. That's the problem. You have no feasible plan to take the throne besides hoping everyone will nominate and elect you.

Elhanan wrote...

As I recall, Harrowmont is speaking as a candidate for the throne. But when he becomes King, his word will be enough. Bhelen is already convinced he will be King. He of course is wrong.

His word? Wow. I'm not willing to gamble the fate of Ferelden on one man's word to take the issue up with a group of people who are always fighting amongst each other.

Elhanan wrote...

And perhaps the guards were bribed to stay away, either by the Crows as they are left to clean, or by Gavorn and his deepstalkers as they are possibly hanging around the King's chambers. Two birds; one visit.

That sounds like a lot of fanwanking.

Elhanan wrote...

Exactly; Harrowmont is not getting ahead of himself, and is giving a truthful response as he is not yet King. And neither is Bhelen.

No, Bhelen is obliged to send aid as King as due to the terms of the treaty. Harrowmont is too weak to do anything but ask the Assembly to make the decision.

Elhanan wrote...

Because he has better morale credentials; no bloodstains on 'em.

Except for Harrowmont murdering everyone in Dust Town, of course.

Elhanan wrote...

If Harrowmont becomes king and the Anvil is destroyed, he quickly finds himself in a protracted battle against Bhelen's rebellion that leaves him unable to gain the stability he needed. The clan lords object to many of his measures in the Assembly, and only his efforts to increase the dwarves' isolation from the surface meet with any success. In time, Harrowmont's health begins to fail. Some claim it was poison, while others say it is a flagging spirit. Either way, after a protracted illness, the king finally passes away. The wrangling in the Assembly for a successor begins almost immediately.

And that doesn't change what he would do if he had the Anvil. In fact, the epilogue even confirms that you're unlikely to become King because of the fighting that transpires for the throne.

Cutlass Jack wrote...

You only quoted him halfway. He said when it was put before the assembly he would not rest until the Warden got the aid he seeked. Essentially he's saying the same thing as Bhelen. Just being more honest about mentioning the Assembly.

No, Bhelen is saying he'll give aid, which a King can do because the treaty only compels the King to aid the GWs against a Blight. Harrowmont is saying he'll take up the issue with the Assembly, and if they repeatedly said no, then your Warden is pretty much screwed.

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Thats metagaming. This thread isn't about what does happen. This thread is about how a 'good' warden would decide that Bhelen is the best way to go based on the information he currently has. Without Metagaming. And even from the endgame point of view, the 'weaker' man gives aid. So speculation about Harrowmont delivering is equally moot if you're looking at it from that angle.

Metagaming? The criers mention Harrowmont's bigotry against the casteless, the guard near the Deep Roads mentions Bhelen's desire to reclaim the lost thaigs, and the salesman near Dust Town reveals how Bhelen is going to increase trade. Considering Harrowmont (when spoken to directly) only promises to take the issue up with the Assembly, it's clear that he's a weak choice and that he'll be a bad King.

You Bring up the point of him murdering everyone in Dustown but that does not happen until the epilogue, during the actual game whatdoes he do that is evil at all appart from legally promising lands to people to support him which just about every medieval nobleman done and was completly acceptable. I seem to remember Howe doing it and it is discovered in awakening. Its a pretty commonplace practice

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

Having played through every origin, I now really do think Bhelen is the best choice, and I agree with those that say the signs are there, if you look carefully.  Maybe he did kill his brother and frame his other brother, but if he wants to bring change to Orzammar and Trian (a total ass) is going to be King instead of him, what CAN he do besides knock off Trian?  Then you have the 2nd brother (or sister) in the way too.  Now, your options aside, we can assume that the 2nd brother if not the Warden probably agrees with Endrin.  Endrin kept all the castless downtrodden, etc.  So, even if Bhelen had not been underhanded and elminiated his brothers, if the 2nd brother had totally been guilty and Bhelen was innocent as pie, if Endrin had found out Bhelen's thoughts on changes to Orzammar tradition, Endrin would have freaked and had Harrowmont take the throne.

So, underhanded and shady as Bhelen was to kill his brother and frame his other brother for the deed, Orzammar politics and their adherence to tradition forced him to be ruthless for the greater good.

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

You Bring up the point of him murdering everyone in Dustown but that does not happen until the epilogue, during the actual game whatdoes he do that is evil at all appart from legally promising lands to people to support him which just about every medieval nobleman done and was completly acceptable. I seem to remember Howe doing it and it is discovered in awakening. Its a pretty commonplace practice

I never used it as a reference to support Bhelen over Harrowmont (as I mentioned the guard, the criers, and the salesman in that regard - others have also mentioned what Zevran says when he's brought along), I mentioned it in reference to Harrowmont's willingness to kill people to retain power.

[Elhanan]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

... So it looks like the man who thinks a good chunk of people are scum, who supports a system that is pushing Orzamar to the brink of extinction, and has no leadership abilities over his men really does make the best leader!

No matter how many must die all that matters is:
Do you feel nice and honorable at the end of the day? 

I do, each and almost every time.

Modifié par Elhanan, 20 janvier 2011 - 07:22 .

[The Big Nothing]

Maconbar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

XxDeonxX,

You are given a lot of clues if you know where to look and bother to scrape below the surface.

1.  If you are DC, it's obvious.  He's your sister's spouse and he clearly treats her with almost all of the rights of a noble born married spouse which is highly unusual.  Your sister also swears by him.

2.  Even if you are not a DC, Bhelen gives you a clear and clear-cut promise of troops to fight the blight, and Harrowmount does not.  Honestly that should be enough by itself.

3.  Listen to the criers.  Both Harrowmount's and Bhelens paint Harrowmount as the defender of tradition, and Bhelen as the harbinger of change.  Then go to dusttown or even talk about the castless with the Shaper of Memories or other dwarves and ask yourself which is better.

All that is in addition to talking to Nerev Helmi and the Merchant.

4.  Finally take Zevram with you when you go to Orzammar, and he quickly fills you into what's what and who is weak (and who isn't) when it comes to the candidates.

-Polaris

Plently of dictators and other horrible rulers have painted themselves as change agents to get to power.

I don't know why "dictator" is such a pejorative term. Half of the population doesn't even know who Mussolini is; what they do know is Mommy and Daddy says dictatorship is bad. So sad.

[Elhanan]

IanPolaris wrote...

... So what?  Better to buy a murderer for a lifetime who is strong enough to be useful rather than an honorable (and Harrowmount isn't very honorable either) idiot who is too weak to be useful.-Polaris

And that so many believe in this kind of thinking is another reason to play solo games.

[IanPolaris]

Elhanan wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

... So what?  Better to buy a murderer for a lifetime who is strong enough to be useful rather than an honorable (and Harrowmount isn't very honorable either) idiot who is too weak to be useful.-Polaris

And that so many believe in this kind of thinking is another reason to play solo games.

So glad I need your moral approval to play Dragon Age.

Nice.

-Polaris

[Elhanan]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

He's merely willing to murder an entire district of innocent people. Wow, what a guy Harrowmont is.[/quote]

Given the golems, he is willing to use them to halt a revolt and civil insurrection. I do not give him the golems. NP. And he is a Paragon of virtue when compared to Bhelen.

[quote]Your Warden is never King. That's the problem. You have no feasible plan to take the throne besides hoping everyone will nominate and elect you.[/quote]

May not have to become King. Being a Warden, Paragon, and economic manager may be enough. I have always disliked politics anyway.

[quote]His word? Wow. I'm not willing to gamble the fate of Ferelden on one man's word to take the issue up with a group of people who are always fighting amongst each other.[/quote]

Was not meaning his promise. As King, only his say is required to honor the treaty; No Assemby required *bazinga*

[quote]Elhanan wrote...

And perhaps the guards were bribed to stay away, either by the Crows as they are left to clean, or by Gavorn and his deepstalkers as they are possibly hanging around the King's chambers. Two birds; one visit. [/quote]

That sounds like a lot of ....[/quote]

Then I suggest you revisit the palace while gaining the Trial of Crows quests, as well as Exotic Remedy, and wave at Gavorn for me.

[[quote]No, Bhelen is obliged to send aid as King as due to the terms of the treaty. Harrowmont is too weak to do anything but ask the Assembly to make the decision.[/quote]

Once made King, either can send troops. Bhelen projects his future view; Harrowmont speaks from current status.

[quote]Except for Harrowmont murdering everyone in Dust Town, of course.[/quote]

Post-tramatic syndrome, eh? Not applicable; never happens, and not murder.

[quote]Elhanan wrote...

If Harrowmont becomes king and the Anvil is destroyed, he quickly finds himself in a protracted battle against Bhelen's rebellion that leaves him unable to gain the stability he needed. The clan lords object to many of his measures in the Assembly, and only his efforts to increase the dwarves' isolation from the surface meet with any success. In time, Harrowmont's health begins to fail. Some claim it was poison, while others say it is a flagging spirit. Either way, after a protracted illness, the king finally passes away. The wrangling in the Assembly for a successor begins almost immediately.[/quote]

[quote]And that doesn't change what he would do if he had the Anvil. In fact, the epilogue even confirms that you're unlikely to become King because of the fighting that transpires for the throne.[/quote]

N/A.

[quote]No, Bhelen is saying he'll give aid, which a King can do because the treaty only compels the King to aid the GWs against a Blight. Harrowmont is saying he'll take up the issue with the Assembly, and if they repeatedly said no, then your Warden is pretty much screwed.[/quote]

Guess not; troops all there, plus the Legion. Harrowmont can do that as he is King.

[quote]Metagaming? The criers mention Harrowmont's bigotry against the casteless, the guard near the Deep Roads mentions Bhelen's desire to reclaim the lost thaigs, and the salesman near Dust Town reveals how Bhelen is going to increase trade. Considering Harrowmont (when spoken to directly) only promises to take the issue up with the Assembly, it's clear that he's a weak choice and that he'll be a bad King.[/quote]

Gossip, propaganda, and the grapevine; great evidence you have there for choosing a King that murders his family. I prefer to look at the methods, and choose Harrowmont FTW.

[Elhanan]

IanPolaris wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

... So what?  Better to buy a murderer for a lifetime who is strong enough to be useful rather than an honorable (and Harrowmount isn't very honorable either) idiot who is too weak to be useful.-Polaris

And that so many believe in this kind of thinking is another reason to play solo games.

So glad I need your moral approval to play Dragon Age.

Nice.-Polaris

You have the right to be wrong if you want to; no approval needed.

[IanPolaris]

Elhanan wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

... So what?  Better to buy a murderer for a lifetime who is strong enough to be useful rather than an honorable (and Harrowmount isn't very honorable either) idiot who is too weak to be useful.-Polaris

And that so many believe in this kind of thinking is another reason to play solo games.

So glad I need your moral approval to play Dragon Age.

Nice.-Polaris

You have the right to be wrong if you want to; no approval needed.

How very gracious.  Too bad you are the one that's wrong if you take your Grey Warden oath seriously.

-Polaris

[Elhanan]

IanPolaris wrote...

How very gracious.  Too bad you are the one that's wrong if you take your Grey Warden oath seriously.- Polaris

My Warden can live with that notion. Well, unless Bhelen is still breathing, of course.

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...
How very gracious.  Too bad you are the one that's wrong if you take your Grey Warden oath seriously.

No, you're wrong and it's clear you can't sleep at night because your conscience is hurting you.
Who cares about material reality? What I think is right is more important. And what i think is right is not inconsistent whatsoever. It is fact that killing a sibling is more wronger than massacring an entire group of people after imposing on them an even more oppressive system. And that it's mroe wronger than supporting the system that holds these people as less than scum.

Let justice be done even should the whole world perish.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 janvier 2011 - 03:13 .