591 réponses à ce sujet

[Giggles_Manically]

HOW CAN YOU KoP?

HOW CAN YOU!



Dont you know that to even slightly harm a mans ego or soul is a million times as evil as murdering and oppressing an entire people? ARE YOU INSANE!



Harrowmont is the pure and perfect man to save Orzamar!

ha.

His purity and goodness shine for all to see like a perfect beacon!

[KnightofPhoenix]

The results speak for themselves!

Look at the genius of Harrowmont's policies! Look at how democratic and liberal he is! Omg, Bhelen dissolved the Assembly and is ruling as AN EVIL TYRANT!!! *Gasp* Unacceptable.

It's fact that freedom based on the representation of self-interested exclusive noble families who keep everyone else down, is more important than prosperity and opportunity for like 90% of the population.

And finally, name me one EVIL TYRANT, that amounted to anything in history. That's right, you wouldn't find any. Yep. All the great leaders were exactly like Harrowmont.

Results Giggles. Results. They speak for themselves.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 janvier 2011 - 03:31 .

[mousestalker]

Bhelen is the obvious choice. He's taller. Harrowmont wears lifts.

[KnightofPhoenix]

mousestalker wrote...

Bhelen is the obvious choice. He's taller. Harrowmont wears lifts.

Harrowmont's beard is bigger. Your point is thus rendered moot.

[Sarah1281]

Given the golems, he is willing to use them to halt a revolt and civil insurrection. I do not give him the golems. NP. And he is a Paragon of virtue when compared to Bhelen.

I really don't understand this. At all. Assuming that Bhelen killed his siblings and Harrowmont never killed any family members, is there anything Bhelen could do with his reign or crime that Harrowmont could do with his that would justify in your mind making Bhelen the king? I think it's notable that there is only a revolt in Dust Town when Harrowmont is king with the Anvil. Why? Because they are revolting because Harrowmont has just, against all odds, made their lives WORSE. They can't even ever leave Dust Town. How any of them are supposed to be able to make it to the surface or the Noble Hunters do their work is beyond me if they can't step foot in the commons. They've officially lost any and all hope. There already wasn't much avenue of advancement and now there only hope seems to be if the Legion comes to Dust Town to personally recruit. How can you blame them for revolting under this circumstance and not blame Harrowmont for destroying Dust Town after he won't let them leave? And for that matter, if they can't go to the commons and no one from the rest of Orzammar really goes there, how are they supposed to be able to get food?

Was not meaning his promise. As King, only his say is required to honor the treaty; No Assemby required *bazinga*

That's actually a point in favor of Bhelen. You're right that the King doesn't have to let the Assembly vote on it. "Ultimately, the Assembly decides what troops to send. If they no longer fear civil war, they'll have no reason to hold back" is Harrowmont's take on it.

[mousestalker]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

Bhelen is the obvious choice. He's taller. Harrowmont wears lifts.

Harrowmont's beard is bigger. Your point is thus rendered moot.

Bhelen's beard is better braided. Thus your argument is refuted.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Sarah.

It didn't happen in his game, thus it does not exist and it's not evidence that Harrowmont is an oppressive oligarch. In his game, he is a benevolent reformer with liberal tendencies.

[KnightofPhoenix]

mousestalker wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

Bhelen is the obvious choice. He's taller. Harrowmont wears lifts.

Harrowmont's beard is bigger. Your point is thus rendered moot.

Bhelen's beard is better braided. Thus your argument is refuted.

well...Harrowmont fights with his fists in the Assembly!

Beat that.

[mousestalker]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

Bhelen is the obvious choice. He's taller. Harrowmont wears lifts.

Harrowmont's beard is bigger. Your point is thus rendered moot.

Bhelen's beard is better braided. Thus your argument is refuted.

well...Harrowmont fights with his fists in the Assembly!

Beat that.

Bhelen uses a weapon when he fights in the Assembly. Tool user > non tool user. It's evolution in action.

[Giggles_Manically]

Well Bhelen actually shows up armed and armored unlike that ponce Harrowmont.

[KnightofPhoenix]

....Harrowmont is NOT A MURDERER!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Well Bhelen actually shows up armed and armored unlike that ponce Harrowmont.

I think that was calculated. Image is extremily important in politics and him dressing up like a warrior might be an attempt to show that he is military minded and capable of leading Orzammar against the blight.

Harrowmont is dressed like a pencil pushing oligarch.

[mousestalker]

He does have droopy eyes, though.

[KnightofPhoenix]

And a dull voice. When Bhelen talks, he just oozes of intelligence and cunning. In fact his manner of speech is somewhat similar to Xanatos'.

[Giggles_Manically]

I like Xanatos' voice more really.



Harrowmont does not seem to have a real presence compared to Bhelen.

[mousestalker]

I suspect Harrowmont is the better dancer. I'd like to think he got his start shaking his money maker at Silent Sister induction parties.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
I like Xanatos' voice more really.

Harrowmont does not seem to have a real presence compared to Bhelen.

Obviously Xanatos has a better voice.

And yes, Harrowmont has no real presence. When Bhelen says "then we must assist her...by any means necessary", my core module glows.

[KnightofPhoenix]

mousestalker wrote...

I suspect Harrowmont is the better dancer. I'd like to think he got his start shaking his money maker at Silent Sister induction parties.

He danced for Endrin....

On his deathbed.

[Giggles_Manically]

Bhelen is the man with the plan.



I was iffy my first time in until I met him.

Then I wanted to hug him because he was the first person I had met in Orzamar with his head on straight.



A man with a good plan is time times better then a good man with no plan in a crisis.

[Cyberstrike nTo]

The way I see it: Bhelen is madly in love in Rica and wants to marry her but can't because she's castles and Bhelen sees the cast-less as a means to help dwarfs fight the darkspawn. The simple truth is: the dwarven caste system is killing them. Bhelen sees this. He sees that if his people are to survive then the Dwarfs have to make some serious changes in their culture and society. He knows that his siblings will never do this. Bhelen also is willing to do anything to achive his goals and if that means setting up his siblilings, forging documents, blackmailing other nobles (if you play as DN and support him that their father did the same thing to become king). Bhelen wants to drag Orzammar into the future kicking and screaming and secure. 

While Lord Harrowmont is a good man he lets the Assembly run rough-shot over him and proves that he never is the King that Orzammar needs.   

Bhelen is the future. Harrowmont is the past.

[Elhanan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Sarah.
It didn't happen in his game, thus it does not exist and it's not evidence that Harrowmont is an oppressive oligarch. In his game, he is a benevolent reformer with liberal tendencies.

Exactly; well plus it happens in another epilogue which make choices based on it rather questionable; perhaps meta-gaming?

Now back to the floor show!

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Well Bhelen actually shows up armed and armored unlike that ponce Harrowmont.

I think that was calculated. Image is extremily important in politics and him dressing up like a warrior might be an attempt to show that he is military minded and capable of leading Orzammar against the blight.

Harrowmont is dressed like a pencil pushing oligarch.

And also because Bhelen was planning on killing everyone who disagreed with him if they tried to make Harrowmont king.

You know, I know some people like the idea that Bhelen's actions were partly motivated by love for Rica but if he did end up doing all of that for her (which I find hard to believe given how long it must have taken to plan it and how short a time he's knwon Rica) then I would lose a great deal of respect for him. I don't care if he loves her or not, just please don't turn him into an idealistic romantic.

[Sarah1281]

Elhanan wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Sarah.
It didn't happen in his game, thus it does not exist and it's not evidence that Harrowmont is an oppressive oligarch. In his game, he is a benevolent reformer with liberal tendencies.

Exactly; well plus it happens in another epilogue which make choices based on it rather questionable; perhaps meta-gaming?

Now back to the floor show!

We were discussing it from a metagaming 'who is better' perspective. And if you're going to claim that - regardless of what happened in your game - Harrowmont wiping out Dust Town is fine because they were revolting, you HAVE to keep in mind the circumstances. These weren't fanatical Bhelen supporters who were determined to keep Orzammar destabalized indefinitely. These were starving, hopeless people who just had it proved to them that they could be more oppressed and had reached a breaking point.  

[Cutlass Jack]

Sarah1281 wrote...
You know, I know some people like the idea that Bhelen's actions were partly motivated by love for Rica but if he did end up doing all of that for her (which I find hard to believe given how long it must have taken to plan it and how short a time he's knwon Rica) then I would lose a great deal of respect for him. I don't care if he loves her or not, just please don't turn him into an idealistic romantic.

On this point, I couldn't agree more.

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

 We were discussing it from a metagaming 'who is better' perspective. And if you're going to claim that - regardless of what happened in your game - Harrowmont wiping out Dust Town is fine because they were revolting, you HAVE to keep in mind the circumstances. These weren't fanatical Bhelen supporters who were determined to keep Orzammar destabalized indefinitely. These were starving, hopeless people who just had it proved to them that they could be more oppressed and had reached a breaking point. 

I get the perspective, but this is a thread on choosing the next King. Epilogues should not be matter much in that decision unless one is using the meta-game knowledge for some reason (eg; Mage Warden is precognative).

And I don't think wiping out Dust Town is fine, but it is not murder, IMO. Loghain stranding Cailan high and dry is in my book, but that is for another thread.

But while the vast majority of us gamers may feel that the Caste system stinks, the majority of characters in Orzammar do not. While we may believe that change is due here and now, that may be a rather false perspective given the cultural norm and environment. 

Modifié par Elhanan, 20 janvier 2011 - 06:48 .