591 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...
You know, I know some people like the idea that Bhelen's actions were partly motivated by love for Rica but if he did end up doing all of that for her (which I find hard to believe given how long it must have taken to plan it and how short a time he's knwon Rica) then I would lose a great deal of respect for him. I don't care if he loves her or not, just please don't turn him into an idealistic romantic.

Absolutely. It may have been a factor, but I do not think it was anything but a small push to a larger plan.
I think the two things that motivate him the most are personal power and Orzammar's interest / survival. I do not think any one of them trumps the other or is more important. If Bhelen was only interested in personal power, he would have been a conservative and not take the risk of making bold reforms. Such risk taking can only imply a calculated vision for the future.

And I think most of us explained why we think that Bhelen is the better choice without metagaming. It's not perfectly obvious (especially to idealists). But the signs are there.
There are obviously reasons to pick Harrowmont and I do not question the common sense of those who do (with the possible exception of a few). I do however question the common sense of those who still argue with metagaming knowledge, that Harrowmont is a better King than Bhelen. They usually refer to ideals that are disconnected from political reality (in both Orzammar and our own) and with practically no consideration to the material concrete realities involved in both of their policies.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 janvier 2011 - 06:59 .

[ArawnNox]

Cultural norms for the dwarves, really. I think it depends on what biases your warden carries when they get there.

I was thinking about this the other night. I could see the downtrodden characters seeing a reformist like Behlen as a breath of fresh air (everyone seems to have forgotten about the noble in Tapsters Tavern who knows that Behlen stands for reforming the caste system, but he's in favor of it too). So, Dwarf Commoners (Rica not withstanding) and City Elves would probably be in favor of selecting Behlen without metagame knowledge. To a lesser extent, if you played a Dwarf Noble with an enlightened attitude about castless and other castes in general, I could see them siding with Behlen too (but thats a debate going on in another thread).

More traditionally minded characters might consider the preserver, Harrowmont, as a solid option. Like a Dalish elf, for example. They're a culture trying to preserve old ways and highly value tradition, so, if you have a similarly minded Dalish, then they might favor Harrowmont.

Really, the core debate is one of the reasons I like the dwarf culture presented in Dragon Age. There is no real easy "good" and "evil". When I first played the game, with no foreknowledge, I took the forged letters at face value and assumed Harrowmont was as bad as Behlen.

[ArawnNox]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
They usually refer to ideals that are disconnected from political reality (in both Orzammar and our own) and with practically no consideration to the material concrete realities involved in both of their policies.

This statement brings to mind one of the sequences in Knights of the Old Republic where you have to select battle strategey to confirm your identity and it drives home the point that, in a war, you need to be ready to sacrifice others, that idealism will only cost more lives in the long run and that you have to be totally commited to one action or another and can't go half-way.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Elhanan wrote...
But while the vast majority of us gamers may feel that the Caste system stinks, the majority of characters in Orzammar do not. While we may believe that change is due here and now, that may be a rather false perspective given the cultural norm and environment. 

Except Bhelen does not make a decisive break here and now. Not only did I not expect him to do this, I hoped he wouldn't. And thankfully he didn't.

He didn't absolish the caste system, he reformed it. Loosened the restrictions. That's not radical change and can be fully supported within the context of Orzammar and its cultural norms. He does not radically deviate from it, but presents gradual change. Change funded with increase in prosperity. I strongly believe that reform without economic development usually lead to disasters (policy of productivity as the Americans used to call it).

As for what most dwarfs think. If humanity is any indication, what the  majority thinks is rarely relevent or informed opinion, and they rarely comprehend the larger picture. Orzammar doesn't have time to very slowly implement reform in a snail like pace, depending on the Assembly finally realizing what's happening. Bhelen doesn't go too fast, but he doesn't go too slow either. Perfect balance and that's what Orzammar needs. Not Harrowmont (the regressive traditional extremist) or Helmi (the populist egalitarian other extreme).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 janvier 2011 - 07:15 .

[Elhanan]

Again we wander from the intended discussion. I never obtain a decent reason to believe, trust, lean towards, etc any of Bhelen's notions as I cannot get past the web of deception in the way. No reason to try, either.

[KnightofPhoenix]

This has already been discussed to death and all our arguments have been presented here and in the other thread. I see little to no reason to trust a weakling either, in an environment of cutthroat politics.

So I'd place my bets on the strong who is more likely to get things done, rather than the weakling who can barely do anything (turns out to be true without golems).

"Trust" is virtually non-existent in politics. What you have is convergence of interests and we already explained how we can come to the conclusion, with very good reason in the game, that it's in Bhelen's interest to help us. Not because he likes to keep promises because it makes him feel warm inside.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 janvier 2011 - 08:12 .

[LobselVith8]

Elhanan wrote...

I get the perspective, but this is a thread on choosing the next King. Epilogues should not be matter much in that decision unless one is using the meta-game knowledge for some reason (eg; Mage Warden is precognative).

And I don't think wiping out Dust Town is fine, but it is not murder, IMO. Loghain stranding Cailan high and dry is in my book, but that is for another thread.

But while the vast majority of us gamers may feel that the Caste system stinks, the majority of characters in Orzammar do not. While we may believe that change is due here and now, that may be a rather false perspective given the cultural norm and environment. 

How the frak is King Harrowmont killing and decimating Dust Town with his golems not murder?

[KnightofPhoenix]

I think it would qualify as mass murder. And his policy to keep the casteless in dust town to be bordering on being a concentration camp / ghetto policy.

Execpt if we define "murder" as being strickly outside the law and base it on Weber's argument that the state should hold the monopoly on the legitimate use of force. Well since Harrowmont is the state, then sure we can argue that it's not murder but the implementation of a policy and enforcing it by sheer force. 

But that's semantics. Regardless of whether it was murder or not legally (and moralists shouldn't really base it on semantics and law if they want to be coherent), it was a stupid counter-productive policy that took away lives that Orzammar needs, needlessly.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 janvier 2011 - 08:53 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Elhanan wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

He's merely willing to murder an entire district of innocent people. Wow, what a guy Harrowmont is.[/quote]

Given the golems, he is willing to use them to halt a revolt and civil insurrection. I do not give him the golems. NP. And he is a Paragon of virtue when compared to Bhelen. [/quote]

By hault, you mean murdering innocent men, women, and children who had the audacity to want rights?

The Paragon of child-killers, maybe...

[quote]Elhanan wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Your Warden is never King. That's the problem. You have no feasible plan to take the throne besides hoping everyone will nominate and elect you.[/quote]

May not have to become King. Being a Warden, Paragon, and economic manager may be enough. I have always disliked politics anyway. [/quote]

I'm sure the casteless will thank you the next time you enter Dust Town.

[quote]Elhanan wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

His word? Wow. I'm not willing to gamble the fate of Ferelden on one man's word to take the issue up with a group of people who are always fighting amongst each other.[/quote]

Was not meaning his promise. As King, only his say is required to honor the treaty; No Assemby required *bazinga* [/quote]

Except Harrowmont never says that; he says he'll take the issue up with the Assembly. So where's your bazinga now?

[quote]Elhanan wrote...

Then I suggest you revisit the palace while gaining the Trial of Crows quests, as well as Exotic Remedy, and wave at Gavorn for me. [/quote]

In other words... no bazinga for you?

[quote]Elhanan wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

No, Bhelen is obliged to send aid as King as due to the terms of the treaty. Harrowmont is too weak to do anything but ask the Assembly to make the decision.[/quote]

Once made King, either can send troops. Bhelen projects his future view; Harrowmont speaks from current status. [/quote]

Bhelen promises troops, Harrowmont promises to take the issue up with the Assembly. Bhelen is a strong leader, Harrowmont is a ****.

[quote]Elhanan wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Except for Harrowmont murdering everyone in Dust Town, of course.[/quote]

Post-tramatic syndrome, eh? Not applicable; never happens, and not murder. [/quote]

Murdering men, women, and children with golems is... indeed... murder.

[quote]Elhanan wrote...

Guess not; troops all there, plus the Legion. Harrowmont can do that as he is King. [/quote]

I never said it was definitive, but it is a possibility given his inability to do anything without getting the Assembly to vote on it, including getting the armies to support the Warden against the Blight.

[quote]Elhanan wrote...

Gossip, propaganda, and the grapevine; great evidence you have there for choosing a King that murders his family. I prefer to look at the methods, and choose Harrowmont FTW. [/quote]

Better than choosing a King who murders an entire district of innocent people simply because they're casteless.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 20 janvier 2011 - 08:44 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Why is Harrowmont wiping out Dust Town and repressing Orzamar not murder?

Because its Harrowmont thats why. He is such a nice old man that everything he does shines with goodness and light.

Bah when he got executed it was a good day in Orzamar.

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 20 janvier 2011 - 09:05 .

[ejoslin]

Harrowmont has a kindly, grandfatherly voice. This is important.



really, my very first playthrough, Orzammar pissed me off because I had so little information. I felt that both sides were playing me, that neither man was honest (I had no reason to trust either -- did bhelen kill his brothers? Did Harrowmont kill the king? I knew f'all except that i was dealing with bribery vs forgery). So I made my choice strictly on who I felt would be more likely a strong leader, respected by the men he was going to send to aid me.



No metagaming required. Harrowmont did not impress me at all. The bribery didn't bother me so much as, well, the only way Harrowmont seemed to get support, even from his own men and military, was to pay for it.



And stuff...

[Sarah1281]

When I first played the game, with no foreknowledge, I took the forged letters at face value and assumed Harrowmont was as bad as Behlen.

It actually took me a few playthroughs to bother getting them checked at the Shaper because since I was planning on delivering them anyway, I honestly did not care if they were genuine or not.

And I don't think wiping out Dust Town is fine, but it is not murder, IMO. Loghain stranding Cailan high and dry is in my book, but that is for another thread.

That seems a little inconsistent. Harrowmont actively sending troops to wipe out a revolt caused by his own oppressive policies is not murder but Loghain retreating from an enemy when it is within the realm of possibities that he could have won the battle is?

Harrowmont has a kindly, grandfatherly voice. This is important.

Oh, definitely. My DNs always love him and the origin does make it clear that he is fond of you (and has a mutual hatred with Bhelen already) even if he really can't help you. Of course, except in my mildly AU story I still go with Bhelen.

[Mrkew]

Live by those words - New is always better. Bhelen is young, fresh and revolutionary. You can't judge him because of what he did to his brothers. Revolution is needed in Orzammar

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

Elhanan wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...



And I don't think wiping out Dust Town is fine, but it is not murder, IMO. Loghain stranding Cailan high and dry is in my book, but that is for another thread.

 

You're right, it's not murder.  It's genocide.

Modifié par AbsolutGrndZer0, 21 janvier 2011 - 12:22 .

[Elhanan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

This has already been discussed to death and all our arguments have been presented here and in the other thread. I see little to no reason to trust a weakling either, in an environment of cutthroat politics.

So I'd place my bets on the strong who is more likely to get things done, rather than the weakling who can barely do anything (turns out to be true without golems).

"Trust" is virtually non-existent in politics. What you have is convergence of interests and we already explained how we can come to the conclusion, with very good reason in the game, that it's in Bhelen's interest to help us. Not because he likes to keep promises because it makes him feel warm inside.

Guess we differ on what we define as strength. You seem to define it as any method to get the task done, much like both Bhelen and harrowmont think of it. I see strength more as character; the inner morality that keeps one from cheating on tax forms although nobody else might ever notice, returns lost funds expecting no reward, etc.

As for explaining the epilogues and other tales, arguements, debates, etc. apart from actually selecting the King, I shall take a pass.

Now we return to the harmony of Moronic Tavernapple Choir....

[Kid_SixXx]

Why does everyone point to Bhelen being an ass as a reason that he shouldn't be king?

Does Bhelen have to be likeable by someone's personal standards in order to be a good ruler.

You, as the GW, are pretty much a diplomat requesting aid from a sovereign nation. Isn't having the ability to negotiate and bargain with parties you may not agree with part of being a diplomat?

It also makes me laugh when people point to the information you get from the Shaper as proof that Bhelen's documents are forgeries.... as if it wasn't possible that the Shaper might secretly be a Harrowmount fanatic that could be lying to you...

Modifié par Kid_SixXx, 21 janvier 2011 - 03:04 .

[Cutlass Jack]

I never cited being an ass as a reason. I cited him being completely untrustworthy and a murderer. Different thing.



As for the documents the Shaper could produce the originals. Which would be rather hard for him to do on the spur of the moment seeing as I just walked in the door. Also had the documents been legitimate, Bhelen's people could have just prompeted them to go directly to the Shaperate and see for themselves. No need to have you deliver copies.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Elhanan wrote...
Guess we differ on what we define as strength. You seem to define it as any method to get the task done, much like both Bhelen and harrowmont think of it. I see strength more as character; the inner morality that keeps one from cheating on tax forms although nobody else might ever notice, returns lost funds expecting no reward, etc.

And this is being compeltely oblivious to the context you are in and to the fact that dwarven politics are cuthroat.
What you cited have little to nothing to do with being an efficient (and that's what I mean by strong) king.

[Elhanan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And this is being compeltely oblivious to the context you are in and to the fact that dwarven politics are cuthroat.
What you cited have little to nothing to do with being an efficient (and that's what I mean by strong) king.

Strength of character is even more important when the surrounding environment makes it more difficult to maintain such. But I can see as to why you would believe differently, as you appear to strive for efficiency.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Elhanan wrote...
Strength of character is even more important when the surrounding environment makes it more difficult to maintain such. But I can see as to why you would believe differently, as you appear to strive for efficiency.

That's the point of a leader I think. To be efficient first and foremost.
Especially when it comes to a practically dying species.

[Joy Divison]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

I never cited being an ass as a reason. I cited him being completely untrustworthy and a murderer. Different thing.

By "him" do you mean Harrowmont?  He certainly is untrustworthy as his incompetence and weakness make it foolish to trust him to do anything notable.  Aside from destroying dust town, that is, which makes him a murderer.

[Kid_SixXx]

I never cited being an ass as a reason. I cited him being completely untrustworthy and a murderer. Different thing.

I have to disagree as the Warden can probably count on Bhelen's ambition as a sign that Bhelen will follow through on his promise for support as a victory over the Blight will earn Bhelen the throne of Orzammar plus the gratitude of Ferelden which will result in economic prosperity.

Bhelen stands to gain too much to go back on his word.

Besides, the Warden's duty is to deal with the Blight and not necessarily to make sure that Orzammar has a ruler that everyone likes. 

The Warden should support the faction he thinks will best deal with the Blight but we all metagame the situation.  I always chose to destroy the Anvil because I don't want Shale to leave my party.  Not the best irrational transaction since that means I am giving up an army of walking siege engines (which will probably be more effective against the Horde than mortal troops) in favor of one NPC

As for the documents the Shaper could produce the originals.

Could he?  The duplicity began at the Ministry of Lands so there is no real way to determine who has forgeries and who has the true documents.  The Shaper may have supressed the originals or the forgeries may have been filed as the true documents from the very beginning.

The Shaper could also be pulling your leg about the investigation and merely inform on you to Harrowmount.

Also had the documents been legitimate, Bhelen's people could have just prompeted them to go directly to the Shaperate and see for themselves. No need to have you deliver copies.

Not if the entire business started with the Ministry of Lands filing forged papers to begin with.

[Cutlass Jack]

Joy Divison wrote...

By "him" do you mean Harrowmont?  He certainly is untrustworthy as his incompetence and weakness make it foolish to trust him to do anything notable.  Aside from destroying dust town, that is, which makes him a murderer.

Admirable try but but you're condemning him in advance for things not done yet. The view from endgame is another discussion entirely and not one many would disagree with. (Well probably someone would...) At the time of decision, Harrowmont has done nothing untrustworthy while Bhelen is hitting his third strike.

[Elhanan]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Admirable try but but you're condemning him in advance for things not done yet. The view from endgame is another discussion entirely and not one many would disagree with. (Well probably someone would...) At the time of decision, Harrowmont has done nothing untrustworthy while Bhelen is hitting his third strike.

Well, Bhelen has been practicing, so three for three is rather efficient of him....

[Cutlass Jack]

Kid_SixXx wrote...

Could he?  The duplicity began at the Ministry of Lands so there is no real way to determine who has forgeries and who has the true documents.  The Shaper may have supressed the originals or the forgeries may have been filed as the true documents from the very beginning.

The Shaper could also be pulling your leg about the investigation and merely inform on you to Harrowmount.

Honest question to you: Did you at any point believe the documents Bhelen's man gave you to be anything but forgeries? Even without confirming at the Shaperate? 

Not really a trick question. Just curious, because I knew Vartag was feeding me a line the entire time I was stealing that shield out of his backpack.

With all parties concerned having copies of the documents, the truth would come out eventually. The Shaper would have to be highly stupid to have copies in the Shaperate that didn't match the versions Harrowmont and the nobles had should they ever be compared together. While Bhelen's deception would only need to last until a king is decided and could never be traced back to him, only you.