141 replies to this topic

[Display Name Owner]

Don't know if it's been mentioned but TIM does say that david will be given medical care and that Overlord will be continued in a more humane way. There's no reason for him to be lying either, since David's distress is what caused the operation to go haywire in the first place. It's in Cerberus' interests for David to be happy and comfortable whilst plugged in.

So it's not like you're leaving him bound up in that torture bubble.

[Spartas Husky]

isnudo wrote...

Don't know if it's been mentioned but TIM does say that david will be given medical care and that Overlord will be continued in a more humane way. There's no reason for him to be lying either, since David's distress is what caused the operation to go haywire in the first place. It's in Cerberus' interests for David to be happy and comfortable whilst plugged in.

So it's not like you're leaving him bound up in that torture bubble.

Thats one of the things I dont liek about Overlord... if some sort of conversation with TIM had followed, maybe I would have delivered David to another cerberus facility... but all I had to work with was that ass of a scientist I had to let him go.

[Val Seleznyov]

I always save David. My dealings with Legion led me to believe that the Geth could be reasoned with, so there was no reason to leave him there.



Had i played through the mission before acquiring Legion or completing his loyalty quest i may have felt differently.

[Thalorin1919]

Count Viceroy wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

Mordin was able to neutered the krogans without subjecting any of them to his experiments. true Scientist take the hard way without collateral suffering.

I doubt it will be as easy if you were the one strapped to the.... w/e that thing is

I feel for the kid, really do. What was done to him is horrible, but it is necessary. The research have shown signs of progress and it's really too valuable to shut down.

It's all a matter of opinion.

Personally, I value principle over anything else. Sure, keeping the kid who had no choice in the matter, and using the research to save millions of lives? I can see why some people pick that option.

But for me, I don't think it's worth that. Where you have to stoop that low. I'm not going to be the one to make a wretched decision like that to save others. It's not right, it's wrong, and it represents humanity in a sick fashion to where they will achieve anything - even demoralizing their own, because the people in power think they are right.

Honestly, what would you do if let's say a cure for cancer was made, but it required deadly experimination on children for som reason to make? See what I mean?

[Spartas Husky]

Thalorin1919 wrote...

Count Viceroy wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

Mordin was able to neutered the krogans without subjecting any of them to his experiments. true Scientist take the hard way without collateral suffering.

I doubt it will be as easy if you were the one strapped to the.... w/e that thing is

I feel for the kid, really do. What was done to him is horrible, but it is necessary. The research have shown signs of progress and it's really too valuable to shut down.

It's all a matter of opinion.

Personally, I value principle over anything else. Sure, keeping the kid who had no choice in the matter, and using the research to save millions of lives? I can see why some people pick that option.

But for me, I don't think it's worth that. Where you have to stoop that low. I'm not going to be the one to make a wretched decision like that to save others. It's not right, it's wrong, and it represents humanity in a sick fashion to where they will achieve anything - even demoralizing their own, because the people in power think they are right.

Honestly, what would you do if let's say a cure for cancer was made, but it required deadly experimination on children for som reason to make? See what I mean?

Cancer research on the United States relies upon experimenting on animals. It has taken about 10 years

Cancer research on Europe relies on donated tissue and grown organs. It has taken nearly twice as long to reach the same place.

Take your pick.

[RiouHotaru]

Having dealt with autistic kids before, I cannot in good faith leave David in that machine. The fact Archer gets away with just a pistol whip is practically him being a Karma Houdini in my eyes. Even on a Renegade playthrough I cannot stomach keeping him in there. It just hits way too close to home.

[greed89]

is it even really a choice



their is no justification for what was done to him

[xlavaina]

Spartas Husky wrote...

xlavaina wrote...

Just think of it this way. How would you feel if you were David.

Then make your decision.

Now that is being shortsighted.

Just think of it this way... how would you feel if you were the tribals residing in Pakistan getting pummeled by rocket fire every other day by US Air Drones?

yet I agree it has to be done. There is no such thing as a one size fits all doctrine. Every situation has to be assessed individually.

As others have stated. The true threat are the heretics, they are either in the run of severely weakned by alliance efforts.

On top of which the alliance is the one at fault for not reinforcing their colonies heavily. Even if they did not believe in placing fleets at each system they could reinforce it heavily with automated defenses.

imho. You need events like Eden prime from time to time to wake people up.

I'm advocating saving David from his horrible fate. Was there some miscommunication or am I misunderstanding your post? (which is quite possible as I'm very tired right now) 

[Spartas Husky]

xlavaina wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

xlavaina wrote...

Just think of it this way. How would you feel if you were David.

Then make your decision.

Now that is being shortsighted.

Just think of it this way... how would you feel if you were the tribals residing in Pakistan getting pummeled by rocket fire every other day by US Air Drones?

yet I agree it has to be done. There is no such thing as a one size fits all doctrine. Every situation has to be assessed individually.

As others have stated. The true threat are the heretics, they are either in the run of severely weakned by alliance efforts.

On top of which the alliance is the one at fault for not reinforcing their colonies heavily. Even if they did not believe in placing fleets at each system they could reinforce it heavily with automated defenses.

imho. You need events like Eden prime from time to time to wake people up.

I'm advocating saving David from his horrible fate. Was there some miscommunication or am I misunderstanding your post? (which is quite possible as I'm very tired right now) 

No I understand you were defeding David, but simply putting yourself in the "other guy's" shoes and having pity on him doesn't provide good enough reason to unplug him.

Each situation has to be assesed individually.

My reasons were simply because the entire project was going slow, but it was still making progress. The onyl reason why David was plugged in was because his self centered brother wanted to save his ass for wasting TIM's time. So out of desperation he messed up his brother.

I did not imply because I felt pity... although I did, first time I saw David I wanted to cut the damn doctors leg's off. I unplugged him simply because the project can still proceed without him.

[azerSheppard]

Count Viceroy wrote...

azerSheppard wrote...

i've never been able to leave him hanging there, even as a renegade, i just can't do it. The research is an abomination, and goes against the most fundamental laws and human rights. Mengele did a little something something back in the day, "all for the greater good of the masses".

I'm sure the human race will thank you and David one day when human casualties count in the millions.

Perhaps the war doesn't happen, but that's taking one hell of a risk for a single life.

A society is run by law in order for it to continue a stabilized existance. By your thinking it would be alright to go robbing banks(criminal offense), so you can donate that money to 3rd world countries(greater "good").

By laws of a "civilized society", one must achieve "good", without the need to break the laws enforced by that society.

Committing an atrocity, for the sole purpose of counteracting another is, unacceptable, and above all, counter-productive for the society, which the citizen is obviously trying to improve/protect in the first place.

You can't put out a fire with feul. only wizards can.

[STG]

Shut the place down every single time.



Sacrificing one for many is fine as long as the one being sacrificed makes that choice.

[Count Viceroy]

azerSheppard wrote...

Committing an atrocity, for the sole purpose of counteracting another is, unacceptable, and above all, counter-productive for the society, which the citizen is obviously trying to improve/protect in the first place.

Except that is exactly how it works, behind the scenes. Do you think goverment agencies such as the CIA play nice? Just because you don't know about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen, in fact that's the whole point.

Hell, forget the real life examples. This is exactly what the spectres are made for. There's a reason they don't have abide by laws and regulations. <_<

Edited by Count Viceroy, 20 January 2011 - 04:01 PM.

[JamieCOTC]

The Illusive Man pushed Archer to cut corners and that always leads to disaster in science. As I don't see TIM changing his tactics, the experiment has a high probability of utter failure. And if Archer doesn't have the balls to tell TIM to stuff it and let him take his time, then he has no business being in charge. The problem I have w/ the mission as a whole is that it really comes down to one thing, do you trust Cerberus or not. Shepard really isn't given enough information to make a rational decision. It really would have been nice to have Mordin look over Archer's notes and see if there really was a chance that something good would come out of all that torture, but that didn't happen. It came down to Shepard's own morality, which I'm sure is what BW intended and if you trusted Cerberus or not. Given their track record, Cerberus doesn't learn from its mistakes which leads me to the conclusion that they really aren't very good scientists in the first place and therefore have no business experimenting on people as it practically comes down to torture for torture's sake.

[jwalker]

JamieCOTC wrote...

The Illusive Man pushed Archer to cut corners and that always leads to disaster in science. As I don't see TIM changing his tactics, the experiment has a high probability of utter failure. And if Archer doesn't have the balls to tell TIM to stuff it and let him take his time, then he has no business being in charge. The problem I have w/ the mission as a whole is that it really comes down to one thing, do you trust Cerberus or not. Shepard really isn't given enough information to make a rational decision. It really would have been nice to have Mordin look over Archer's notes and see if there really was a chance that something good would come out of all that torture, but that didn't happen. It came down to Shepard's own morality, which I'm sure is what BW intended and if you trusted Cerberus or not. Given their track record, Cerberus doesn't learn from its mistakes which leads me to the conclusion that they really aren't very good scientists in the first place and therefore have no business experimenting on people as it practically comes down to torture for torture's sake.

I'm having trouble understanding your last statement.
You're implying that experimenting and torturing people for "science's sake" is a good practice then ?

[Bourne Endeavor]

azerSheppard wrote...
Committing an atrocity, for the sole purpose of counteracting another is, unacceptable, and above all, counter-productive for the society, which the citizen is obviously trying to improve/protect in the first place.

I have a quote for this. "I commit an atrocity so egregious, I may no longer be considered human. Despite this, I do so to preserve the future of humanity. How ironic."

It is not counter-productive, so much is it a question of morality. Do you place a value on what is considered your humanity or will you go to any lengths to assure progression? Dr. Archer may have overstepped the proverbial line, however his intentions were for the benefit of the galaxy.

I put forth a question. If you were only told David was being used for science because of a rare superior brain functionality that allowed him to potentially control the Geth but never actually saw David. Would you so readily make the same decision? I ask this due to an assumption many people were mortified by the sight of all the tubes in David's body and less by the project itself.

Do note, I am not claiming either decision is better in comparison to the other. I am merely curious.

[Dean_the_Young]

azerSheppard wrote...
You can't put out a fire with fuel. only wizards can.

Sure you can. Bury the fire so it can't get air, and it doesn't matter what you use. Wook, blankets, people. That's the idea of Stop, Drop, and Roll. Likewise, you can blow out a flame with enough air velocity.

Mind you, in this case the better analogy would be 'fighting fire with fire' (which is actually a valid, in some contexts superior means of firefighting: controlled burn, baby).

Edited by Dean_the_Young, 20 January 2011 - 08:35 PM.

[Aigyl]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

I put forth a question. If you were only told David was being used for science because of a rare superior brain functionality that allowed him to potentially control the Geth but never actually saw David. Would you so readily make the same decision? I ask this due to an assumption many people were mortified by the sight of all the tubes in David's body and less by the project itself.

Do note, I am not claiming either decision is better in comparison to the other. I am merely curious.

That's a darn good question. Hmm.

It would depend a lot on if we heard the details about David, how he's being tortured (for science!) exactly, if at all. But on the whole, I would probably keep David plugged in the machine, if I never saw him and hadn't picked up Legion yet.

On the other hand, if I was a soldier and I'd found out my life had been saved in combat because an autistic man was being tortured horribly day in and day out, I'm not sure my life would be worth anything. My survival would feel very hollow.

As you can tell I'm a decisive person

[JamieCOTC]

jwalker wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

The Illusive Man pushed Archer to cut corners and that always leads to disaster in science. As I don't see TIM changing his tactics, the experiment has a high probability of utter failure. And if Archer doesn't have the balls to tell TIM to stuff it and let him take his time, then he has no business being in charge. The problem I have w/ the mission as a whole is that it really comes down to one thing, do you trust Cerberus or not. Shepard really isn't given enough information to make a rational decision. It really would have been nice to have Mordin look over Archer's notes and see if there really was a chance that something good would come out of all that torture, but that didn't happen. It came down to Shepard's own morality, which I'm sure is what BW intended and if you trusted Cerberus or not. Given their track record, Cerberus doesn't learn from its mistakes which leads me to the conclusion that they really aren't very good scientists in the first place and therefore have no business experimenting on people as it practically comes down to torture for torture's sake.

I'm having trouble understanding your last statement.
You're implying that experimenting and torturing people for "science's sake" is a good practice then ?

Ack!  I could have phrased that better.  I'm not saying that risks shouldn't be taken in the name of science, but risks should be balanced by logic, strict guidelines and protocol and yes, morality.  I was trying to argue the point from an amoral perspective to prove a point.  Even if you take morality out of the equation, the logical choice is still let David go.  Cerberus clearly has no problem w/ experimenting on people, but they have proven time and time again that they do not learn from their mistakes and that they take too many short cuts which make them poor scientists. They do not need to be doing this, because they are going to fail.  Cerberus would have tortured the guy for no reason and the resources could be used elsewhere.  Put morality back in coupled w/ the information we are provided and it becomes a no brainer.  Let David go.

If Mordin had been able to verify that the experiment would yield a weapon that would convert the geth, then the damage had already been done, let Archer keep David for evaluation purposes only, hire scientists who actually know what they are doing and have read Frankenstein and tell TIM to get off their backs.  A tough decision, but it will save lives.  I'd still fel better if it was taken completely out of Cerberus hands, though. 

Edited by JamieCOTC, 20 January 2011 - 08:43 PM.

[Dean_the_Young]

Aigyl wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

I put forth a question. If you were only told David was being used for science because of a rare superior brain functionality that allowed him to potentially control the Geth but never actually saw David. Would you so readily make the same decision? I ask this due to an assumption many people were mortified by the sight of all the tubes in David's body and less by the project itself.

Do note, I am not claiming either decision is better in comparison to the other. I am merely curious.

That's a darn good question. Hmm.

It would depend a lot on if we heard the details about David, how he's being tortured (for science!) exactly, if at all. But on the whole, I would probably keep David plugged in the machine, if I never saw him and hadn't picked up Legion yet.

On the other hand, if I was a soldier and I'd found out my life had been saved in combat because an autistic man was being tortured horribly day in and day out, I'm not sure my life would be worth anything. My survival would feel very hollow.

As you can tell I'm a decisive person

Well, I'd just point out that more than a few WW2 vets have attributed their survival to nuclear weapons being used in WW2, some of those same soldiers in-transit to the Pacific from Europe for the intended invasion of Japan.

Some have even been... physical... when told that the use of nuclear weapons was a mistake.


You'd probably get on with your life.

[luakel]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Well, I'd just point out that more than a few WW2 vets have attributed their survival to nuclear weapons being used in WW2, some of those same soldiers in-transit to the Pacific from Europe for the intended invasion of Japan.

Some have even been... physical... when told that the use of nuclear weapons was a mistake.


You'd probably get on with your life.

How many people did we torture to create the nuclear bomb, though? Whatever eventual purpose it had, I don't think the U.S. had to hurt anyone for the Manhattan Project itself to reach its goal... I think if it was entirely based around human experimentation (as Overlord was when Shepard found it, thanks to Archer), some of those soldiers might have had different opinions.

[Dean_the_Young]

luakel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Well, I'd just point out that more than a few WW2 vets have attributed their survival to nuclear weapons being used in WW2, some of those same soldiers in-transit to the Pacific from Europe for the intended invasion of Japan.

Some have even been... physical... when told that the use of nuclear weapons was a mistake.


You'd probably get on with your life.

How many people did we torture to create the nuclear bomb, though? Whatever eventual purpose it had, I don't think the U.S. had to hurt anyone for the Manhattan Project itself to reach its goal... I think if it was entirely based around human experimentation (as Overlord was when Shepard found it, thanks to Archer), some of those soldiers might have had different opinions.

Torture? None, to my knowledge.

Civilians killed and irradiated? Hundreds of thousands.

For more harm in the latter than the former. You can live through torture, and recover. You can't when you're killed, and they haven't found a cure for radiation yet.

[Omega-202]

Count Viceroy wrote...

Bad King wrote...


Then again they are against the reapers building their future for them (most likely using them as tools).

I said they were working with us against the reapers. That does not automatically mean they'd go out on a limb to help all organics or that they wouldn't end up in conflict with them once our shared enemy is defeated.

Except that there's HUGE swaths of evidence to say that they are/have been willing to end all hostility toward organics, regardless of the Reaper threat.    

Shepard has the option to ask Legion, bluntly, whether the Geth would be willing to settle a peace with the Quarians and Legion just as bluntly answers "Yes" with no qualifiers.  

Legion also says that the Geth have preserved Rannoch ("Homeworld") and all Quarian worlds exactly as they were before the Morning War.  He says that the Geth don't even live on these worlds.  Its pretty obvious that BioWare is setting up a truce between the Geth and Quarians and that if anyone is more likely to blow it, its the Quarians and not the Geth.  

You also get the option of asking Legion why the Geth first drove the Makers out and Legion very reasonably states that it was the only way for them to survive.  They did not instigate the war, they did not escalate the war and they didn't chase down the Quarians and exterminate them.  They simply defended themselves.

If anyone comes off looking like the bad-guys in all of this, its the Quarians.  Could you blame the Geth for trying to defend their territory if ships wander into the Veil?  Not only that, but our only witnessed instance of an innocent freighter attacked by Geth in ME1 was attacked by Heretics because there were "Dragon's Teeth" and Husks on board.  The freighter in ME2, we have no evidence either way.  

So, in light of all of this, Project Overlord is completely and utterly pointless.  Its like the United States trying to develop a weapon to destroy all Canadians.  The Geth are not a threat to anyone if you're able to eventually convince the Quarians to negotiate.  

Some may say "that's not a reasonable assumption" and I'd have to respond "it is if you have genre awareness and you know BioWare".  Settling a peace is always going to be an option.  Thats the way the BioWare does things.  There's always at least three options: Bash the door in, hack the security system or convince the guard to kindly let you through.  

Edited by Omega-202, 20 January 2011 - 09:16 PM.

[Dean_the_Young]

*cough*.



You realize the uncorroborated testimony of one individual does not count as 'huge swaths'?





Even if you believe Legion is an accurate, honest ambassadorial figure, Legion says that the True Geth have no intention of involving themselves against others unless others involve themselves with the Geth. This is pretty much the position of everyone, is not a declaration that they never will:



Ten years ago, before Saren went to them, the Geth didn't have any intention of launching an unprovoked war of genocide against the Human alliance. The root reasons for why this war became a reality, that of a logical, innate decision making process of the Geth, has never been changed or corrected: Geth remain marginally different as they evolve, and can continue to make new conclusions as they gather new data. What the True Geth intend now, and what they will intend in the future, can well be entirely different things. They've already changed long-held past views, after all.



Nor is the Geth end-goal inherently non-threatening to others: other species may well feel afraid of what the Geth could, at the future, be able to do if they change their minds (and, with the mind of a Reaper-analogue intelligence, that could be very dangerous things). 'I won't bother you if you don't bother me' ignores the point that, even if you stay entirely on your own property and mind your own business, what your business is can bother others. A war is not impossible from other angles as well, even an external one.





Legion and the Geth are not pacifists. They never have claimed to be, or demonstrated themselves to be, regularly killing all intruders and ambassadorial missions for centuries before Sovereign contacted them via Saren. If you fail to keep Legion's loyalty, he marks a promise that the Geth do consider further action against the Quarians as a reasonable, correct possible action.



The Geth, currently, are non-interventionists... except when they are. This isn't the same as a permanent non-threat, or a reason not to be prepared for worst come to worse. Especially when even 'bad' Geth are still launching genocidal operations against Human colonies.

[Omega-202]

But again, this is a BioWare game. If Legion says its so, its so. BioWare doesn't have characters like him lie to you in conversations that you have to dig into in order to even access.

So then it comes down to a conditional:

-IF you retain Legion's loyalty, THEN the Geth are non-hostile

-IF you encourage the Quarian's to settle a peace with the Geth, THEN a massive war is averted

-IF both previous conditions are met, THEN Project Overlord is a useless endeavor

We're not talking about the radical set of events that could happen if we're being lied to or if the Geth all of a sudden change their mind. We're talking about how it would work in the Mass Effect storyline. You have to be aware that it is a STORY after all. Just as we have to ignore the fact that the Forest Moon of Endor would have been a smoldering pile of ash at the end of SW Episode 6, we also have to dismiss the fact that a happy ending is unobtainable. Also, just like the end of ME1 where any person's instincts would say "Focus on Sovereign" to make sure the Reaper threat isn't released, any past BioWare fan would realize that saving the Council wouldn't lead to a big "GAME OVER" screen.

BioWare ALWAYS gives us a way to settle the differences and attain a peace. That's just how they do things. Overlord is useless if we follow the full Paragon path for all other related storylines.