12 réponses à ce sujet

[JnEricsonx]

Discuss.

[PlayingWithKnives]

Please explain in what context? they are both good in there own way Song of courage is obviously really good for a heavy cunning dagger rogue, wherea song of valor will buff mana and sta regen for all your respective group members..



I always roll with at least 2 rogues to benefit from both buffs hell most of the time i have 3 rogues in my party

[DWSmiley]

Mages - Valor. Rogues and warriors - Courage.

[termokanden]

Valor doesn't scale very well. Courage scales better, provides a much better buff, and is pretty much always better as long as you have any physical damage-dealers in the party. If I have two bards in my party, they are both going to be using Song of Courage.



I've used Valor as a mage, but I don't think I actually needed it.

[soteria]

What DWSmiley wrote. It depends on what you have more of in your group and who you want to buff. If you only have one mage, but he's your prime performer and has mana issues, run Valor. If you're not running out of mana, don't bother. I wouldn't run Valor for rogues and warriors in any event--they'll gain more from Courage.

[Mr_Steph]

Depends on your party setup really...

[Random70]

Not even a contest. Song of Valor rates only slightly higher than 'totally useless'. Consider that in an encounter that lasts 30 seconds, Song of Valor will regen:

w/ 30 CUN: 10.5 stamina / mana
w/ 60 CUN: 15  stamina / mana
w/ 90 CUN: 19.5 stamina / mana

Most fights, however, will be considerably shorter, so from a practical standpoint you can cut the above numbers in half. Not too impressive, especially when you consider the fact that you can 'drink' a mushroom for +10 instant.

In addition,

Rogues don't have very high stamina requirements
Warriors get Deathblow
Mages get cheap and plentiful lyrium pots

OTOH, here's the bonus provided by SoC:

w/ 30 CUN: 5 Att, 3 Dam, 5% crit
w/ 60 CUN: 8 Att, 4.5 Dam, 8% crit
w/ 90 CUN: 11 Att, 6 Dam, 11% crit

For Archers w/ Aim, double the crit bonus. With the exception of caster mages, everybody benefits from those numbers.

[soteria]

Does this mean you're back, Random70?

[Random70]

Back to what?

[soteria]

Giving me a headache. What's this "math" stuff at 6am? Sheesh. I know Valor can't be that bad; it says what it does in the tooltip and there's a little graphic to show that it's working!

More seriously, yes, Courage is a better buff than Valor.  Courage, however, does zilch for mages.  Also, while the mana regen'd over 30s is piddling, remember that you don't really need *any* regen for a 30s fight.  Some bosses may take as long as three or four minutes to kill, depending on your group.  If your rogue is Leliana, who hits like an over-cooked noodle, and you have a PC mage who gets most of your attention, Courage might not be as fun to use.

Put another way, Courage is a superior buff for melee but useless for mages.  Ask yourself if you care how well your physical damage-dealers perform.

Modifié par soteria, 20 janvier 2011 - 09:34 .

[termokanden]

I understand using Valor if you think potions are cheating and if you don't have a lot of physical DPS in the party. But I still don't think it's particularly good. By the way, Blood Magic is a way to regain mana without potions: Cast spells in Blood Magic mode, switch and Heal or Group Heal. Again, the mana regen from Valor is just not all that great because mana isn't all that limited in the first place.

By the way, the numbers above illustrate something I've been thinking about. Even with a rogue that has low cunning, Song of Courage is a better buff for damage dealing than Dueling. My 22 cunning (for stealth) dex based rogue had, with gear, enough to gain 5 attack, 3 damage and 5% crit with Song of Courage. Particularly for a dex based rogue, that's a much better buff than Dueling (because your attack rating and defense are already sky-high and you need a +dam buff more than anything).

Just another shameless post in favor of Song of Courage. It's a actually pretty overpowered, particularly when you start stacking it.

Modifié par termokanden, 21 janvier 2011 - 02:19 .

[soteria]

Eh. Attack rating is underrated, and Dueling costs just over half what SoC costs to maintain. It's almost a wash--SoC has a slight edge because of the crit--but Dueling is cheaper, potentialy allowing an extra stun. As an individual buff, SoC really doesn't have much of an edge. It's the group aspect that makes it good. I'm not even getting into the defense bonus attached to Dueling.

Edit:  A lot of higher-level enemies have 80+ defense before buffs and debuffs.  A few bosses (such as Howe and Cauthrien) have ~100 defense.  That means unless your attack is 130-150, you still benefit from raising it.  Same for defense.  Those numbers are reachable, but not till late in the game when it probably doesn't matter anymore.

Modifié par soteria, 21 janvier 2011 - 06:42 .

[termokanden]

soteria wrote...

Eh. Attack rating is underrated, and Dueling costs just over half what SoC costs to maintain. It's almost a wash--SoC has a slight edge because of the crit--but Dueling is cheaper, potentialy allowing an extra stun. As an individual buff, SoC really doesn't have much of an edge. It's the group aspect that makes it good. I'm not even getting into the defense bonus attached to Dueling.

The upkeep cost never bothered me at all. I never actually ran out of stamina as a rogue. Anyway my point is that with a cunning build, SoC quite clearly becomes a superior damage buff. It's not just about the attack rating alone (which is about the same when you have a high cunning). It's also about getting extra damage for every attack. That's pretty good for dual-wielders. Better than the crit rating I'd say.

For dex based rogues, I've often wondered if Duelist isn't a bit overkill. You already have high attack and defense. You don't really need that extra buff. I played through the game as such a rogue with Dueling. At some point I just turned it off and never bothered with it again. Never noticed the difference. I got hit only by unavoidable attacks, with or without Dueling.

For rogues that invest a lot in strength (where is Elhanan?  ), I think the defense boost would actually be quite nice to go along with the high armor rating. That's where I think Duelist is at its best.