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Mass effect 2: Retcons, Inconsistencies and Story Segregation


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#176
JKoopman

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Nozybidaj wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...
Only that it wasn't, none of the changes in ME 2 , except obviously for the improvements in graphics and sound, were for the better (all in my opinion, of course).


I liked most of the gameplay improvements as well.  Made the game feel like it played much smoother.  Still, I don't usually play BW games because they have great gameplay.  If I want to play a good shooter I'll go grab GoW or something. 

The complete abandonment of the previous characters, the departure from the story of the first game, the total lack of advancement of the storyline, and the lolworthy characters, dialogue, and "plot" just totally killed the game for me.  When I measure this game as I measure all BW games (story and characters) it is by far the worst BW I have ever played.

Of course if those things aren't the things I was playing the game for I probably would have loved it, as evidenced by many of the reviews and scores you see around.  They obviously played the game for different reasons than I did.


Totally off-topic here but, Nozybidaj, when I saw your signature out of the coner of my eye, for a moment I thought it said "I support cameltoes for the squad in ME3." :whistle:

Modifié par JKoopman, 20 janvier 2011 - 08:07 .


#177
Nozybidaj

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JKoopman wrote...

Totally off-topic here but, Nozybidaj, when I saw your signature out of the coner of my eye, for a moment I thought it said "I support cameltoes for the squad in ME3." :whistle:


Apparently it worked for Miranda, so sure, why not. :P

#178
Tesla17

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I've previously found smudboy's videos to be both smug, condescending and otherwise a giant ego-trip.



But yeah, they do provide a genuine critique that the game, an everything in the universe for that matter, rightfully deserves. It was also well thought out and analytical.



So yeah, two thumbs up for these.

#179
MsKlaussen

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Whether or not everything said in the video is 100% correct, when it sounds like it's being said by the illegitimate love child of Agent Smith and Patrick Bateman, it can't be said enough!

#180
Valo_Soren

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All of the ****ed about supposed 'inconsistincies' were changes made for the sake of better game play. Mass Effect 2 is better then Mass effect 1 because of these changes, to **** about them is not only idiotic but selfish.

#181
Kusy

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Valo_Soren wrote...

All of the ****ed about supposed 'inconsistincies' were changes made for the sake of better game play. Mass Effect 2 is better then Mass effect 1 because of these changes, to **** about them is not only idiotic but selfish.


**** **** **** **** *** * *** * ** ***** ** * ***** * ** ***
^ My post is now officialy more important.

#182
EpicBoot2daFace

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Am I the only one who thinks this guy sounds like Agent Smith from the Matrix? LOL!

#183
sth128

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I love the sound of my own voice so I'll write a long article addressing everything pointed out in this thread.


@ "If you like smudboy's videos then you must be a ME2 h8tr!" argument:
I very much doubt they hate the game. It is in fact quite the opposite. One does not spend the effort and time necessary to criticize something they hate. If people truly hated the game they would likely simply attack it without critiquing. They would attack on baseless grounds (eg. "Shepard is ugly" or "Liara has eyebrows ZOMG"). Like me, I imagine many people who raised these critiques love the game so much that we noticed the inconsistencies. We raised these points because we want to see something we love be perfected even more. Indeed, we do not hate ME2; we love it.



@ "Suspension of disbelief, FOOL!" argument:
Again, I very much doubt people do not understand the concept of suspension of disbelief in a science fiction. We accept that mass effect field exists in the ME universe, and that it does what the codex says it does (even if it violates the very rules of real world).

 
However, once the rules are established, they must be followed by the in-universe objects and characters. If they do not, then the sci-fi plot device degenerates into magic. Smudboy was correct in pointing out the discrepency between the ME1 mass field and ME2 mass field. He even provided in-game evidence as dictated by the codex.
This is not nitpicking. This is statement followed by evidence. This is the same process used in legal courts.

 
The same applies to the thermal clip issue. The game never quite explained how (or why) the ENTIRE GALAXY adopted a new weapon management system within 2 years, while completely eliminated the old system simultaneously. This is such a violation of logical thought that it exceeds most people's ability to suspend their disbelief. No insterstellar governing body, no matter how efficient, can effect such sweeping change within such a short amount of time. This issue is even more prominent when you consider that they haven't even fixed the Citadel in two years.

 
How can an interstellar government codify and effect manufacturing of a systemmatic change of all small arms in the galaxy but not be able to fix the space station on which they operate?

 
 
To nitpick is to be excessively concern about inconsequential details. Few points raised by smudboy are inconsequential, least of all the thermal clips. It is possibly the most significant change to the ME universe since the introduction of mass effect. It implies an existing infrastructure of manufacturing facilities and distribution network that can make changes on a galactic scale. If this system can be used against the Reapers then it will have great significance on the final chapter of the game. Bioware simply cannot ask us to "ignore" the change, when the game itself boasts the idea of "every choice you make yields consequences".

Modifié par sth128, 21 janvier 2011 - 02:13 .


#184
Pedro Costa

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Valo_Soren wrote...

All of the ****ed about supposed 'inconsistincies' were changes made for the sake of better game play. Mass Effect 2 is better then Mass effect 1 because of these changes, to **** about them is not only idiotic but selfish.

Since we're talking about gameplay, only the heat sinks and handling of the classes mattered (and one could even go as far as to argue that heat sinks didn't matter at all for an experienced player - by default, an experienced player with a good knowledge of its class and the combat mechanics rarely runs out of ammo -if at all- to begin with); in other words, it wasn't the lack of an inventory that improved Mass2, it wasn't lack of powers that improved Mass2, it wasn't lack of upgrade slots and variety on what to place in those slots that improved Mass2.

What improved Mass2 was the diversification of the six classes, the specific, special powers tailored for said classes (charge, tech armour, adrenaline rush, tactical cloak...), the hit-where-you're-aiming-at mechanic, the collective cooldown periods (although I think cooldowns should be grouped by type) and the effectiveness of certain weapons, powers and ammo types against different sorts of defensive protection... THESE were the things that made Mass2's gameplay so superior and enjoyable, and, as you probably noticed by now, none of them, not one of them actually relied on removing the things Mass1 introduced. It only took some tweaking/improving (classes are the blatant example: they weren't removed, they were tweaked to feel more different, the way a power progressed too, now each rank you acquire matters to the effectiveness of the power).

All that said, I stopped watching the videos when he spent an eternity whining about thermal clips; it gave me the impression it was a raved fanboy's ramblings instead of a level-headed critique of the game's flaws.

To say they provided a more diversified gameplay although not really impactful for a seasoned player that already knows how the combat system works and actually thinks on the two people said player brings to the mission (what powers they have and how those synergise with the players' own powers, weaknesses and strengths aswell as what the player will need to use most during the mission - an example is Grunt's loyalty mission - no enemies have shields, so taking a shield-stripping squadmate is unadviseable when you can take characters that can deplete armour/barrier more efficiently) to help in dealing with the enemies (as it should be, otherwise, why bring them at all?) is one thing; to say they go against the lore and are the worst thing ever dreamed of only because MassEffect 1 wasn't like that? Yeah, "I gotta go".


wow, long rant... sorry guys:P

Modifié par DarkLord_PT, 21 janvier 2011 - 06:06 .


#185
The7Sins

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Valo_Soren wrote...

All of the ****ed about supposed 'inconsistincies' were changes made for the sake of better game play. Mass Effect 2 is better then Mass effect 1 because of these changes, to **** about them is not only idiotic but selfish.


Except some of these changes (cough thermal clips) (cough global cooldown cough cough) make the game less fun, worse than ME1, **** up the consistency of the game universe history, make odd plot holes ala Jacob's loyalty mission, and are just annoying. Honestly ME1 was the better game.

#186
padaE

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Witch of the two got 96 on Metacritic and tons of GOTY awards? I think that is the best one.

#187
Layzr

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padaE wrote...

Witch of the two got 96 on Metacritic and tons of GOTY awards? I think that is the best one.

so you let reviewers think for you? good talk

#188
JrayM16

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Layzr wrote...

padaE wrote...

Witch of the two got 96 on Metacritic and tons of GOTY awards? I think that is the best one.

so you let reviewers think for you? good talk


No, I think he's just trying to establish a popular consensus, albeit in a thread where it is largely irrelevent to the topic.

#189
Gleym

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I wasn't aware popularity meant something was good. Guess Twilight's a masterpiece in fiction then, and Justin Bieber's an amazing artist with incredible talent for songwriting.

#190
JrayM16

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Gleym wrote...

I wasn't aware popularity meant something was good. Guess Twilight's a masterpiece in fiction then, and Justin Bieber's an amazing artist with incredible talent for songwriting.


Well, there's definetly two sides to it.  On one hand, a lot of people liking something doesn't automatically make it good.  On the other hand, the fact that a lot of people like somethiing can't be completely discounted.

#191
Gleym

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It can when you take one key factor into play: The phenomena that is known as 'human stupidity'.

#192
Babli

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padaE wrote...

Witch of the two got 96 on Metacritic and tons of GOTY awards? I think that is the best one.

Thats the (more) mainstream one.

#193
Evil Johnny 666

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Come on guys, he's not nitpicking that much. Maybe it's you who have low standards to start with. I'd be broke if I bought every game on the market because wanting the best would just be hurtful to me.

#194
ABCoLD

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Good videos, good videos.

#195
wolfennights

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**** IT THEY'RE BOTH AMAZING GODDAMMIT.



I can let little inconsistencies and continuity drifts slide, because those exist in ALL form of storytelling media.



There's stuff I like about ME1 over ME2, and vice versa. They're both still two of my top favorite games of all time, ALL TIME Y'ALL.

#196
candidate88766

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From reading a comment a couple of posts above which mentions that ME2 is the more 'mainstream' game, is that the real reason that some of you don't seem to like it that much? Simply because you view it as more mainstream? Like virtually any band that makes a sudden breakthrough into the market, the 'original' fans will often accuse them of 'selling out' simply because they're no longer the only person in their social circle who's heard of them. Based on a lot of comments on these forums (not necessarily this thread) there are plenty of people hating on ME2 seemingly out of jealousy (probably not the best word) of the fact that their favoured franchise has suddenly become rather well known. Admittedly not known to the level of games like CoD, but still.



Can't we just agree that both games are great if flawed, without someone saying an ME1 fan is an elitist pc gamer or that an ME2 fan is a Michael Bay, Halo, explosion fan because these assumptions simply aren't true - we're all here because we're sci-fi fans, and sci-fi always has to take the occasional artistic liberty with facts in order to make it fun.



(Wow, that was much longer than I planned. Also, I should add that i'm not targetting any particular people with my comments)

#197
Praetor Knight

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sth128 wrote...

The same applies to the thermal clip issue. The game never quite explained how (or why) the ENTIRE GALAXY adopted a new weapon management system within 2 years, while completely eliminated the old system simultaneously. This is such a violation of logical thought that it exceeds most people's ability to suspend their disbelief. No insterstellar governing body, no matter how efficient, can effect such sweeping change within such a short amount of time. This issue is even more prominent when you consider that they haven't even fixed the Citadel in two years.

 
How can an interstellar government codify and effect manufacturing of a systemmatic change of all small arms in the galaxy but not be able to fix the space station on which they operate?

 
 
To nitpick is to be excessively concern about inconsequential details. Few points raised by smudboy are inconsequential, least of all the thermal clips. It is possibly the most significant change to the ME universe since the introduction of mass effect. It implies an existing infrastructure of manufacturing facilities and distribution network that can make changes on a galactic scale. If this system can be used against the Reapers then it will have great significance on the final chapter of the game. Bioware simply cannot ask us to "ignore" the change, when the game itself boasts the idea of "every choice you make yields consequences".


Well there are many examples of where there have been minor changes in tech with existing weapons systems that did not require what you are talking about.

Artillery has an interesting early history, and I'll share a snippet since it seems relevant to countering the idea you bring up.

Some of the earliest European cannons were modeled after wooden barrels, right down to their metal slats and rings design. So when used in a fight, these cannons were just as likely to be set off like a grenade or bomb, as they were to launch the projectile at the enemy.

So eventually someone got the bright idea to cast their cannons just like bells were at the time, from one forged piece of metal. But this new type of cannon still suffered from the same issues as the barreled cannons for the crews firing them, with the cannons randomly exploding.

But there was a simple solution that was very minor and maybe counter-intuitive, without requiring a paradigm shift of the existing infrastructure.

So what happened in the casting process for the cannons, was that the earliest molds were designed with the breach at the top of the mold (where the metal is poured) and muzzle at the bottom. So the reason the cannons still exploded was because impure metal would sit at the top of the mold.

So by chance it was figured out to redesign the mold where the breach would sit at the bottom of the mold with the muzzle at the top, so that the impurities would stay at the top, and not impact the area of the cannon that had to withstand the greatest force. Therefore the cannons cast with the second mold design were by far much safer for the crews firing them.

Related to heat sinks, both ME and ME2 weapons fire the same way, generating heat and requiring the heat to dissipate from the weapon to prevent failures and to allow the weapons to continue working.

Regardless of how heat sinks actually work, the main difference between the two systems is that instead of waiting for the heat sink to cool you replace the spent heat sink with another.

So only the heat sink is changed in the weapons, IMHO, between the two games, not how the rest of the weapon works.



Also this kind of change does not require any sort of systematic change from weapons' manufacturers, but maybe could be considered counter-intuitive, since why would anyone waste a perfectly good heat sink?

So all that the Military-Industrial Complex (MIC) would then have to do is make a larger, disposable heat sinks to replace the arguably more complex, actively cooling heat sink system. I say larger, disposable heat sinks because it seems that the part of the weapon where the actively cooling heat sink system sits should allow for regular maintenance.

Which should be similar to how modern weapons can be maintained, from replacing a firing pin to replacing a barrel, and manufacturing a cheaper alternative should be a welcome change for heat sink manufacturers, so I feel that very little is actually changed with the transition to disposable heat sinks in ME2.


If TL;DR: There is no violation of logical thought, nothing really implied about ME universe MICs, and no need to regard such a minor change in heat sink tech beyond what is seen playing ME2.

I feel that it was the inability to replenish the "ammo" for Shep without running around for Thermal Clips, or finding Power Cells and/or Armories that "irked" many gamers the most, when "ammo" was no longer felt like "unlimited ammo" like in ME.

Which is easily solved, IMHO, by adding a finite power that can be used during a fight (like Unity), to replenish the weapons and/or automatically replenishing the weapons after a fight, similar to how the SM plays.


And I would be happy to provide a plausible explaination as to how such features would fit with gameplay and ME universe lore. ^_^

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 04 février 2011 - 11:53 .


#198
Zulu_DFA

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Smudboy is right in almost every respect. He only made a minor mistake, saying that the bullets travel FTL. But I still wish gameplay designers had to watch this stuff at the begining of their every work day.

#199
AdmiralCheez

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candidate88766 wrote...

From reading a comment a couple of posts above which mentions that ME2 is the more 'mainstream' game, is that the real reason that some of you don't seem to like it that much? Simply because you view it as more mainstream? Like virtually any band that makes a sudden breakthrough into the market, the 'original' fans will often accuse them of 'selling out' simply because they're no longer the only person in their social circle who's heard of them. Based on a lot of comments on these forums (not necessarily this thread) there are plenty of people hating on ME2 seemingly out of jealousy (probably not the best word) of the fact that their favoured franchise has suddenly become rather well known. Admittedly not known to the level of games like CoD, but still.

Can't we just agree that both games are great if flawed, without someone saying an ME1 fan is an elitist pc gamer or that an ME2 fan is a Michael Bay, Halo, explosion fan because these assumptions simply aren't true - we're all here because we're sci-fi fans, and sci-fi always has to take the occasional artistic liberty with facts in order to make it fun.

(Wow, that was much longer than I planned. Also, I should add that i'm not targetting any particular people with my comments)

QFT.

#200
shep82

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Wow talk about nitpicking. Those are really minor issues and IMO the story, gameplay and everything else was fine.