129 réponses à ce sujet

[CroGamer002]

No, but it wasn't ruined.

[Lucky Thirteen]

Ah, this conversation appears again.

I recall the last time this discussion ended with this.

1. You had no idea what what you'd need anyone for in the end. Thane is there because he is one of the best skilled in the galaxy. If you look at Garrus in ME1, he essentially should have been cut he is so useless. You can play the entire game without him and the only difference you have is that you're just short one squad mate that's how useless he is in ME1. No changes to the story, it doesn't hurt leveling all that much, and there is just one less side mission. Believe me, I've done that a lot, as much as I do like him now because of ME2, he's nothing but a useless token turian in ME1.

2.Thane was made for the fan girls. Personally, I'm sick of seeing strippers, sick of random asari and some women hitting on femShep, sick of seeing Miranda's butt cheeks taking up half the scenes, sick of seeing Samaras boobs from below, the consorts sexy little walk down the hallway.

But you know what, I've been mostly keeping my mouth shut, cause they actually tried doing some fan service for the fan girls for once and Thane's biceps and other things are amazing.



Hell yeah! *ahem* Now that I've embarrassed myself...

Jacob's abs are awesome if you can stand to make it that far into his romance and well I don't like to consider Garrus for a romance personally, but there seems to be a lot of happy fan girls to have him as an option. But that's all fan service, finally, for the ladies.

Anyway, I in the end would like Thane to remain. Who knows what they have in mind for Thane in ME3 to make him real useful to the major plot, but I consider him to be a really great character otherwise. The game is story focused after all and for now he is important to the smaller plots of femShep romances.

Modifié par Lucky Thirteen, 20 janvier 2011 - 07:24 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

mangeo wrote...

Yes it did....
are you actualy saying that Mass Effect 2 story was better than Mass Effect 1's?

Heaven forbid that someone's opinion on Mass Effect should differ from yours.

@Lucky Thirteen: I agree.  You don't necessarily know what someone's impact in the story will be until the entire trilogy's over.  You could've killed Wrex in ME1--he was awesome, but only tangentially related to the story.  But he becomes a huge plot point for the evolution of the krogan in ME2.  And if you offed him...well, sucks to be you.

[Tinve]

Thane wonderful kills organic with biotic barriers (Collectors). Singularity + double Warp (my Shepard is Adept) blows up everything in the Insanity.
And yet .. Thane and Samara only adults in this kindergarten for troubled children.

P.S. IMHO do not feed the trol.

Modifié par Tinve, 20 janvier 2011 - 09:56 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Tinve wrote...
And yet .. Thane and Samara only adults in this kindergarten for troubled children.

Yeah...they are among the more mature party members, certainly.  Poor guys, dealing with all the young'uns and all their issues.

mangeo wrote...

Do YOU think ME2's story was better than ME1's?

It's not relevant to this particular thread, and I don't want to get locked for off-topic.  What's more, I doubt any opinion of mine, no matter how I reason or justify it, will sway your opinion.  This is the internets, after all 

[lizzbee]

mangeo wrote...

Yes it did....
are you actualy saying that Mass Effect 2 story was better than Mass Effect 1's?

It sure wasn't much worse.  ME1 didn't have much of a story.  You hear about the Reapers, and in the final, climactic moments of the game, you find out from the Vigil that, "Oh, it doesn't matter *why* they're doing what they're doing-- just that they plan to kill you."

Nice.

The writing quality was far superior in ME2, especially the dialog and character interaction.

[Alphia]

I agree with Lucky Thirteen, Thane was a character clearly made for the ladies (one of my favorite characters, actually). Not every character has to appeal to everyone, and there is certainly enough in the game to appeal to the male demographic. Just let us have this one.

[JECWSU]

What is the real purpose of this thread? Is it just so the op can tell us all how much he doesn't like Thane. We get it. He may have been usless to you, but there are a lot of us who don't feel the way. If you don't like him then do like Sable says and don't recruit him. No one is making you bring him along. No one is making you talk to him or care about the character. Get him killed on the suicide mission if it makes you feel better. It is really that simple.

[Yojimbo_Ltd]

He is a strong character with a wonderful side story.



He has no plot device, adds nothing to the progression of the plot, and does nothing to affect the ultimate conclusion of the story. He is fluff at its best. Something to add time, as many people have already stated.

[JECWSU]

Yojimbo_Ltd wrote...

He is a strong character with a wonderful side story.

He has no plot device, adds nothing to the progression of the plot, and does nothing to affect the ultimate conclusion of the story. He is fluff at its best. Something to add time, as many people have already stated.

That's your opinion. In case you didn't notice not everyone feels this way.

[Yojimbo_Ltd]

JECWSU wrote...

Yojimbo_Ltd wrote...

He is a strong character with a wonderful side story.

He has no plot device, adds nothing to the progression of the plot, and does nothing to affect the ultimate conclusion of the story. He is fluff at its best. Something to add time, as many people have already stated.

That's your opinion. In case you didn't notice not everyone feels this way.

yup.

Can you name his plot device, progression to the main plot, or directly affect the conclusion with his uniqueness, if present? 

You must really like Thane, defending him so. lol

[Fiery Phoenix]

Yojimbo_Ltd wrote...

yup.

Can you name his plot device, progression to the main plot, or directly affect the conclusion with his uniqueness, if present? 

You must really like Thane, defending him so. lol

Name a single squadmate other than Mordin that does affect the plot of ME2.

Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 21 janvier 2011 - 05:37 .

[Interactive Civilian]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

Name a single squadmate other than Mordin that does affect the plot of ME2.

Garrus suggests the Thanix Cannon upgrade. Jacob suggests heavier armor upgrade. Tali suggests the shield upgrade. Miranda brought you back to life. Tali OR Kasumi OR Legion handle the tech. work on the suicide mission. Samara OR Jack handle the biotic work on the suicide mission. Legion saves your life on the Reaper IFF mission.

All of those things affect the plot.

Thane, Zaeed, and Grunt really are just fluff. And, whichever of the "OR' situations above you don't choose can also be considered fluff.

Of course, you had no way of knowing who you would need before the suicide mission, so it's rather moot.

This does not mean that I don't like those "fluff" characters. As I said before, its more of a testament to how poorly Bioware built the story and how they failed to integrate the characters into the story.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Interactive Civilian wrote...


Garrus suggests the Thanix Cannon upgrade. Jacob suggests heavier armor upgrade. Tali suggests the shield upgrade. Miranda brought you back to life. Tali OR Kasumi OR Legion handle the tech. work on the suicide mission. Samara OR Jack handle the biotic work on the suicide mission. Legion saves your life on the Reaper IFF mission.

All of those things affect the plot.

Thane, Zaeed, and Grunt really are just fluff. And, whichever of the "OR' situations above you don't choose can also be considered fluff.

Of course, you had no way of knowing who you would need before the suicide mission, so it's rather moot.

This does not mean that I don't like those "fluff" characters. As I said before, its more of a testament to how poorly Bioware built the story and how they failed to integrate the characters into the story.

When I say affecting the plot, I'm referring to plot-integrity. That is, an instance where one character's presence will advance the plot, otherwise (i.e. without said character's presence), the plot ceases to continue, or ceases to be. This is importance to plot.

The upgrades don't do anything to the plot. They do not advance the plot. You can still finish the story without them.

[Interactive Civilian]

When I say affecting the plot, I'm referring to plot-integrity. That is, an instance where one character's presence will advance the plot, otherwise (i.e. without said character's presence), the plot ceases to continue, or ceases to be. This is importance to plot.

So, how do at minimum Miranda, Jacob, Samara OR Jack, and Legion not fit into this? Remove any of those and the story ceases. No Miranda, no Lazarus project. No Jacob, no getting off the Lazarus facility. No Legion, Shepard dies on the Reaper IFF mission and you have no tech. expert. No Samara or Jack, no way through the seekers in the suicide mission.



And, if we then exclude the fluff characters, who we might as well now consider canon fodder, then all of your essential characters would die after going through the Om4 Relay, due to the lack of ship upgrades.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Interactive Civilian wrote...

So, how do at minimum Miranda, Jacob, Samara OR Jack, and Legion not fit into this? Remove any of those and the story ceases. No Miranda, no Lazarus project. No Jacob, no getting off the Lazarus facility. No Legion, Shepard dies on the Reaper IFF mission and you have no tech. expert. No Samara or Jack, no way through the seekers in the suicide mission.

Explain to me how the plot ceases to continue without Miranda, Jacob, Samara, Jack, and Legion.

I have to comment on Miranda, though. The Lazarus Project is not the plot of ME2. It's an opening that doesn't get mentioned or discussed anywhere after the first 10 minutes of the game. What ME2's story is about is saving human colonies from Collector abductions, which involves taking out the Collectors. Miranda does nothing that advances the Collector plot. Bringing Shepard back is inconsequential. Anyone could have supervised the Lazarus Project to bring Shepard back. In any event, the plot is about the Collector abductions, not the Lazarus Project.

Having said that, Miranda is involved in the plot. What I mean by involved is her presence is noticeable as she openly voices her opinion on what happens and is directly related to TIM, who is essentially the plot provider. Beyond that, Miranda is as important as anyone other than Mordin. Simply being involved in the plot does not automatically make a character important for it to continue.

And, if we then exclude the fluff characters, who we might as well now consider canon fodder, then all of your essential characters would die after going through the Om4 Relay, due to the lack of ship upgrades.

So? The story has ended, right? That means the plot has successfully come to an end. That's all that matters. It doesn't matter how the story ends; it only matters the story has ended, period.

Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 21 janvier 2011 - 06:58 .

[Mr_Commander_Shepard]

ME1 Story > ME2

[Interactive Civilian]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

Interactive Civilian wrote...

So, how do at minimum Miranda, Jacob, Samara OR Jack, and Legion not fit into this? Remove any of those and the story ceases. No Miranda, no Lazarus project. No Jacob, no getting off the Lazarus facility. No Legion, Shepard dies on the Reaper IFF mission and you have no tech. expert. No Samara or Jack, no way through the seekers in the suicide mission.

Explain to me how the plot ceases to continue without Miranda, Jacob, Samara, Jack, and Legion.

I just did. Read the quoted paragraph.

Unless you are using some obscure definition of plot, without those characters, the plot does not advance. For the record, I am using this definition, from Wikipedia: a literary term for the events a story comprises, particularly as they relate to one another in a pattern, a sequence, through cause and effect, or by coincidence. If Miranda does not do the Lazarus project after Shepard dies, the plot stops. If Jacob does not assist Shepard in getting off the facility, the plot stops. If Shepard is killed by that husk on the Reaper IFF mission, the plot stops. If no survivor is tech. enough to open the doors on the collector base, the plot stops. If no one is biotic enough to keep off the seeker swarms, the plot stops.

I am not at all defending the weak plot of this game. However, Mordin is not the only non-Shepard squad member that is integral to the plot.

Modifié par Interactive Civilian, 21 janvier 2011 - 07:37 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

Interactive Civilian wrote...

If Miranda does not do the Lazarus project after Shepard dies, the plot stops.

Already commented on that one. No need to repeat myself.

If Jacob does not assist Shepard in getting off the facility, the plot stops.

Not plot-integrity. Anyone could have assisted Shepard off the facility. It doesn't take a specific character to do that. Plot-integrity is when a character and only that character can advance the plot. Examples include Liara reading Shepard's mind to find Ilos at the end of ME1, Tali deciphering her evidence against Saren at the beginning of ME1, Shepard in LOTSB when touching the Normandy's photo and it turns into a Prothean dig site (thanks to Shepard's personal ID), ultimately leading to the conclusion that Liara did leave a message for Shepard. Another one is Shepard at the end of ME1; if Shepard wasn't there, Liara wouldn't be able to read Shepard's mind and see the visions and make sense of them, since Shepard is the only one with those readings in their mind. Therefore, the plot stops. This is plot-integrity.

If Shepard is killed by that husk on the Reaper IFF mission, the plot stops.

Same as above.

If no survivor is tech. enough to open the doors on the collector base, the plot stops.

Same as above. This isn't plot-integrity. Plus the door opens even if you don't have a tech specialist; the only difference is the one who opens it will get shot in the face.

If no one is biotic enough to keep off the seeker swarms, the plot stops.

Once again, this isn't plot-integrity.

I am not at all defending the weak plot of this game. However, Mordin is not the only non-Shepard squad member that is integral to the plot.

I know you aren't. I'm sorry if I seem to be a little harsh, too. I just hope you get what I'm saying because nothing you've mentioned makes a character plot-integral per see. Consider the examples I provided above to see what I'm getting at.

Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 21 janvier 2011 - 08:21 .

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

With the exception of Miranda and Mordin, no other characters are 'plot essential.'

For a tech expert, if you don't have Legion, then there is Tali

If you don't have Jack, then Samara can hold the biotic field.

We are talking about ONE individual character, if you are going completely get rid of all the characters that aren't 'plot essential,' then you no longer have a plot.

The game is based on the characters and their respective recruitment and loyalty missions. Get rid of them, and you no longer have a game.

Therefore, discussing whether or not one character is 'plot essential' is fruitless. The style of the game means that one individual character doesn't necessarily contribute to the plot, but take away all of them, and it's -

Wait, where has the game gone?



Oh, and everyone like Sable, even if she is being facetious