76 réponses à ce sujet

[tangmcgame]

Yeah, Kasumi does kinda' get Tac Cloak. However, I'm much more okay with a DLC character getting a unique ability with a more-than-passing resemblance to a class-specific one than I am with two basic game characters with an exact copy of a single class's power.

I actually would prefer seeing more of this than less. I just don't like how much the Engineer got singled out. Jacob/Jack with Charge would have made them a lot more interesting party choices, at least.

[tonnactus]

tangmcgame wrote...

To be fair, it's the only unique class power that any squadmates get.

No.Concussive Shot is also a power unique to the soldier,but a lot of squadmates have it.

[Tony Gunslinger]

Tali's attack drone lasts about 26 seconds with her passive and tech duration, so the 30 sec cooldown isn't unreasonable.

[tangmcgame]

tonnactus wrote...

tangmcgame wrote...

To be fair, it's the only unique class power that any squadmates get.

No.Concussive Shot is also a power unique to the soldier,but a lot of squadmates have it.

Note I said "class power."  I'd hoped that made it clear I was talking about the powers each class is built around or built to capitalize on.  A playstyle-defining power.  So that I don't confuse you any more, let me list them:
Singularity, Tech Armor, Adrenaline Rush, Tactical Cloak, Charge, and Attack Drone.

Of those, only Drone is given to any squadmates.  While Concussive Shot is not given to any other player class besides the Soldier, it was never, to my knowledge, planned as a unique power.  It was always intended to be given to several squadmates.  I did read somewhere that those class powers I listed were intended to be unique to each player class, so none of them should be on squadmates.

On the other hand, I'm pretty sure you're trolling and you're just good at making it look like you aren't.

[Omega-202]

tangmcgame wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

tangmcgame wrote...

To be fair, it's the only unique class power that any squadmates get.

No.Concussive Shot is also a power unique to the soldier,but a lot of squadmates have it.

Note I said "class power."  I'd hoped that made it clear I was talking about the powers each class is built around or built to capitalize on.  A playstyle-defining power.  So that I don't confuse you any more, let me list them:
Singularity, Tech Armor, Adrenaline Rush, Tactical Cloak, Charge, and Attack Drone.

Of those, only Drone is given to any squadmates.  While Concussive Shot is not given to any other player class besides the Soldier, it was never, to my knowledge, planned as a unique power.  It was always intended to be given to several squadmates.  I did read somewhere that those class powers I listed were intended to be unique to each player class, so none of them should be on squadmates.

On the other hand, I'm pretty sure you're trolling and you're just good at making it look like you aren't.

Yet Liara also gets Singularity.  

They never said that the class Powers were supposed to be unique to the player, it was just something that more or less happened.  With 2 Combat Drones, 1 Singularity, 1 Cloak/Charge hybrid and 3 squadmates with Shield powers, I don't see how unique the class Powers really are.  Granted, each of their versions are weaker or have a longer recharge than Shepards, but there's nothing that unique in them.  

Modifié par Omega-202, 19 janvier 2011 - 11:58 .

[Doctah T]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

Tali's attack drone lasts about 26 seconds with her passive and tech duration, so the 30 sec cooldown isn't unreasonable.

The problem is that drones have pretty low health, so they won't last the whole 26 seconds. If it lasts ten, that drone should be given a medal.

@Omega Saying Liara is a squad member is like saying Wilson is a squad member.

Modifié par Doctah T, 20 janvier 2011 - 12:57 .

[tangmcgame]

Omega-202: If the powers weren't intended to be unique to the player classes then why don't we see any of the squad members with Charge (Jacob and Jack are obviously Vanguards and it would be especially fitting on Jack) or Singularity (Morinth/Samara, they're supposed to be incredibly powerful biotics; I agree with Doctah T on the subject of Liara, she's a DLC character that joins your party for about an hour of gameplay, so some exceptions are allowed) or Tech Armor (Mordin comes to mind). Why is Drone the only class-specific ability that gets shared with squadmates? Again, not counting Concussive Shot.

I can't be 100% sure and I can't find the source, but I remember the class powers I listed above being described as "unique to the class" in an effort to give each class that special something that nobody else has. I'll keep looking. If I find the source I'll post it.

EDIT: It occurs to me that this is thoroughly off topic for this thread and I apologize for that.  I meant my comment to be a casual observation, not a discussion starter.  I'll post the source if I find it, but otherwise I won't continue this conversation here.

Modifié par tangmcgame, 20 janvier 2011 - 01:44 .

[Omega-202]

tangmcgame wrote...

Omega-202: If the powers weren't intended to be unique to the player classes then why don't we see any of the squad members with Charge (Jacob and Jack are obviously Vanguards and it would be especially fitting on Jack) or Singularity (Morinth/Samara, they're supposed to be incredibly powerful biotics; I agree with Doctah T on the subject of Liara, she's a DLC character that joins your party for about an hour of gameplay, so some exceptions are allowed) or Tech Armor (Mordin comes to mind). Why is Drone the only class-specific ability that gets shared with squadmates? Again, not counting Concussive Shot.

Jack/Jacob weren't given Charge because the technical issues with it are STILL an issue for playable characters, let alone squadmates.  YET Kasumi got Shadow Strike which is the same exact concept.  I'd imagine that at the time of release, they simply hadn't figured out how to make it work for NPC's.  

In regards to Liara, you're just being arbitrary.  There's no reason to say "DLC means she's not applicable" other than YOU not wanting a counter to your thesis.  

For your Tech armor example, we've got Jacob, Grunt and Legion with shield powers that restore and boost THE SAME AMOUNT of shields with the same cooldown.  The fact that their versions don't have the bonuses that the lvl 4 version of Tech Armor has is their downside, just like Tali/Legion's Drones have 30 second cooldowns.  Their versions are just a nerfed version of Tech Armor just as much as Tali/Legion's Drones are nerfed versions of an Engineer's Drone.  

Modifié par Omega-202, 20 janvier 2011 - 02:16 .

[lazuli]

tonnactus wrote...

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Not worth the cooldown? Tali's Combat Drones are not worth the cooldown - they're on a 30 second cooldown, you can only use this power like 3 times during an entire missions. Plus drones are weak, they will last for only a couple seconds in combat. They're great playing an Engineer, but pretty bad on squadies.

Thats right.What were they smoking when they decided this? A 30 sec cooldown in a global cooldown system.

Exactly.  I can see how it would be overpowered if it had a 3 second cooldown like Shepard's version, but 30 seconds is absurd.  Up to an 18 second recharge might make sense for the power, though even that seems a little harsh.  I'd rather they just create some other tech powers or bring back some old ones in a suitably modified form instead of giving Tali and Legion a watered down version of the Engineer's class ability.

[jwalker]

lazuli wrote...

[...]

Exactly.  I can see how it would be overpowered if it had a 3 second cooldown like Shepard's version, but 30 seconds is absurd.  Up to an 18 second recharge might make sense for the power, though even that seems a little harsh.  I'd rather they just create some other tech powers or bring back some old ones in a suitably modified form instead of giving Tali and Legion a watered down version of the Engineer's class ability.

Legion, with his passive is around 17, 18 seconds for the drone. Not that bad.....

[lazuli]

jwalker wrote...

lazuli wrote...

[...]

Exactly.  I can see how it would be overpowered if it had a 3 second cooldown like Shepard's version, but 30 seconds is absurd.  Up to an 18 second recharge might make sense for the power, though even that seems a little harsh.  I'd rather they just create some other tech powers or bring back some old ones in a suitably modified form instead of giving Tali and Legion a watered down version of the Engineer's class ability.

Legion, with his passive is around 17, 18 seconds for the drone. Not that bad.....

I'll keep that in mind for the ~2 missions that he's available for.  I'm kidding.  There's DLC and anomalies.

[jwalker]

lazuli wrote...
[..]

I'll keep that in mind for the ~2 missions that he's available for.  I'm kidding.  There's DLC and anomalies.

And there's also hacking of your save file.

Before entering the slums on Omega to recruit Mordin: "This platform is immune to organic disease"

[Doctah T]

Omega-202 wrote...
Jack/Jacob weren't given Charge because the technical issues with it are STILL an issue for playable characters, let alone squadmates.  YET Kasumi got Shadow Strike which is the same exact concept.  I'd imagine that at the time of release, they simply hadn't figured out how to make it work for NPC's.  

In regards to Liara, you're just being arbitrary.  There's no reason to say "DLC means she's not applicable" other than YOU not wanting a counter to your thesis.  

For your Tech armor example, we've got Jacob, Grunt and Legion with shield powers that restore and boost THE SAME AMOUNT of shields with the same cooldown.  The fact that their versions don't have the bonuses that the lvl 4 version of Tech Armor has is their downside, just like Tali/Legion's Drones have 30 second cooldowns.  Their versions are just a nerfed version of Tech Armor just as much as Tali/Legion's Drones are nerfed versions of an Engineer's Drone.  

The piece about charge being unsuitable for squadmates is believable, but I don't think it'd be that hard to incorporate. Maybe something about squadmate AI after the charge? I have the feeling they'd either stand there and die, or run away and give up any advantage the charge gave them.

And the fact that Liara is a DLC character has nothing to do with my dismissal, it's that she's only used for a single mission and she's obviously meant to be more powerful than other squadmates.

And I can't provide any real evidence, but I disagree that shield powers are diluted versions of Tech Armor. Different feels, different purposes, I guess.

Modifié par Doctah T, 20 janvier 2011 - 03:06 .

[Omega-202]

Doctah T wrote...

The piece about charge being unsuitable for squadmates is believable, but I don't think it'd be that hard to incorporate. Maybe something about squadmate AI after the charge? I have the feeling they'd either stand there and die, or run away and give up any advantage the charge gave them.

Exactly the problem.  The AI is not very good as is.  Give them a power that puts them in point blank range with no real reflexes to speak of?  You just sent them to their death.

And the fact that Liara is a DLC character has nothing to do with my dismissal, it's that she's only used for a single mission and she's obviously meant to be more powerful than other squadmates.

Is she really more powerful though?  Her Singularity doesn't end up trivializing any content you face and I'd rather have Miranda, Garrus, Kasumi or Samara over her in most missions.  The only part of LotSB that I felt she made much easier was the "landing pad" section.  Area Overload -> Singularity is amazing, but not much different than Overload-> Pull FIeld.

And I can't provide any real evidence, but I disagree that shield powers are diluted versions of Tech Armor. Different feels, different purposes, I guess.

And the squad Drones have different purposes and feels to Shepards as well.  While Shepard's is general purpose, the squad ones are more "I need that enemy to stop shooting me for 5 seconds".  Same thing for the shields.  You spam Tech Armor, but you ideally only refresh the shields when necessary or the AI forces them.  

[lazuli]

Omega-202 wrote...

Is she really more powerful though?  Her Singularity doesn't end up trivializing any content you face and I'd rather have Miranda, Garrus, Kasumi or Samara over her in most missions.  The only part of LotSB that I felt she made much easier was the "landing pad" section.  Area Overload -> Singularity is amazing, but not much different than Overload-> Pull FIeld.

Singularity isn't what makes Liara such a beast.  Every single one of her powers is fantastic.  She has Stasis and access to Warp with a cooldown reduction passive.  Warp wasn't needed all that much in the mission that Liara features in though, so I suppose that should be taken into account.

[Doctah T]

Like lazuli said, she's got singularity and stasis, both of which are great crowd controls, and both of which are on reasonable squadie cooldowns (with passive). And I don't usually put any points into warp when I'm running through LotSB, but with her CD reduction she'd be an effective warp-bomber.

I think we're pretty much in agreement on the whole charge issue, it just took me a couple posts to realize it >.

But Tech Armor also has the shockwave when it's broken. I dunno, I guess I can see your point, but I don't really agree with it, you know? They just feel different. Like, shield powers are mostly for survival in tough situations, whereas Tech Armor is something you can base a strategy on. Though I guess Grunt bases his strategy off Fortification. Like I said, it's just a feeling, so it doesn't really have any merit.

Modifié par Doctah T, 20 janvier 2011 - 03:50 .

[Omega-202]

lazuli wrote...

Singularity isn't what makes Liara such a beast.  Every single one of her powers is fantastic.  She has Stasis and access to Warp with a cooldown reduction passive.  Warp wasn't needed all that much in the mission that Liara features in though, so I suppose that should be taken into account.

So then right there you contradict the point you guys were trying to make before.  Singularity isn't what makes her special or overpowered, so allowing a squadmate to have it is nothing major.  

[Doctah T]

Omega-202 wrote...

lazuli wrote...

Singularity isn't what makes Liara such a beast.  Every single one of her powers is fantastic.  She has Stasis and access to Warp with a cooldown reduction passive.  Warp wasn't needed all that much in the mission that Liara features in though, so I suppose that should be taken into account.

So then right there you contradict the point you guys were trying to make before.  Singularity isn't what makes her special or overpowered, so allowing a squadmate to have it is nothing major.  

Singularity is a great power, and definitely contributes to her strength. She'd be beastly with either Stasis or Singularity, and having both increases her utility.

[Omega-202]

Doctah T wrote...
Singularity is a great power, and definitely contributes to her strength. She'd be beastly with either Stasis or Singularity, and having both increases her utility.

But again, having Singularity isn't somehow the magical "thing" that makes her better than any other available squadmate.  Singularity doesn't make her special and because she's "different" doesn't explain why she gets a power that is in no way unbalancing.  

Modifié par Omega-202, 20 janvier 2011 - 04:16 .

[Doctah T]

But she is different, and meant to be more powerful than your other team-mates. Singularity is a contributor to that. More than that, I think it's meant to show that she's a powerful biotic, because we know only powerful biotics are able to create singularities.

[lazuli]

Omega-202 wrote...

lazuli wrote...

Singularity isn't what makes Liara such a beast.  Every single one of her powers is fantastic.  She has Stasis and access to Warp with a cooldown reduction passive.  Warp wasn't needed all that much in the mission that Liara features in though, so I suppose that should be taken into account.

So then right there you contradict the point you guys were trying to make before.  Singularity isn't what makes her special or overpowered, so allowing a squadmate to have it is nothing major.  

Don't group me with "you guys."  I can't speak for anyone but myself.

[tangmcgame]

Omega-202 wrote...

Doctah T wrote...
Singularity is a great power, and definitely contributes to her strength. She'd be beastly with either Stasis or Singularity, and having both increases her utility.

But again, having Singularity isn't somehow the magical "thing" that makes her better than any other available squadmate.  Singularity doesn't make her special and because she's "different" doesn't explain why she gets a power that is in no way unbalancing.  

If you read back to what I wrote earlier, I was suggesting that the class-specific powers be given more freely to squadmates.  My only complaint was in how singled out the Engineer was with the core squad.  You can make your arguments for Kasumi being Cloak/Charge, but that's pretty thin to me.  I buy the whole Liara thing, but I stand by my argument that it isn't quite the same since you only have her for about an hour of game time, which is rather insignificant.  If Stasis weren't so amazing then Singularity definitely would see more play in LotSB.

Basically, it boils down to this: the class powers should either be unique or not.  There shouldn't be mixed treatment with them.  Obviously now, with Liara and (arguably) Kasumi, they've proven that they don't mind doling out the class powers, but at release the Engineer was given a raw deal.

Modifié par tangmcgame, 20 janvier 2011 - 05:35 .

[tonnactus]

jwalker wrote...


Before entering the slums on Omega to recruit Mordin: "This platform is immune to organic disease"

But not to biotic poison,strange enough....

[tonnactus]

Omega-202 wrote...


Is she really more powerful though?  Her Singularity doesn't end up trivializing any content you face

It did. It works on the shadowbroker and together with stasis,there is nothing to worry about in that fight.Also,using singularity on mercs when they get in grouped together in the flying platform indeed trivialize fights...

[Praetor Knight]

tonnactus wrote...

It did. It works on the shadowbroker and together with stasis,there is nothing to worry about in that fight.

I think slam works well on the SB, also, to lower the shield.

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 20 janvier 2011 - 11:26 .