58 réponses à ce sujet

[James2912]

 Earth had no say in becoming part of the Citadel, we were within Citadel space so they claimed us! we can't ignore them because they have larger fleets and up till ME1 we were a slave state of the Council which is really just an oligarchy of 3 races who decided to join together to oppress all the others. In ME1 we were invited to become part of that elite oligarchic group. YAY for us! Meanwhile the Volus, Elcor, Hanar and so on, are slaves within the Citadel Empire. 

It would be like if the US, Russia and China banded together and decided they would tell all the other countries what to do and threatened any who opposed them with enslavement and genocide.

The Council should be reformed so that every race in Citadel space gets one seat in a senate, and seats based on population, like 1 billion people 1 seat or something like that. The current Council races could form there own Security Council in the Senate that would have special powers in matters of defense since those races have the biggest fleets. As it stands now Trillions of lives are controlled by a 4 member Council that has proven to be genocidal, imperialists (treatment of volus by Turians) and incompetent (dealing with Reaper, Geth and Collector threat).

Viva La Revolution! 

[James2912]

The Councils Crimes:

Disenfranchisement of Trillions

Suppported Genocide of the Rachni

Genocide of the Krogan Which is also Biowarfare

Gross incompetence in dealing with every security threat we have seen in the games
(Geth, Reapers, Collectors)

Heartlessness, refusing to help Quarian refugees and instead threatning to attack them if they colonized planets rather that slowly rotting in space

Have their own Secret Police that operate above the law

Do not give species an option to join, they tell you are a member which is an Empire.

Volus are servants of the Turians and also disenfranchised.

Modifié par James2912, 19 janvier 2011 - 08:05 .

[InvincibleHero]

Yeah it sure seems so. More like a dictatorship since they decide if any other race gets representation. They just pretend to listen to the non-council diplomats and do what they want anyway. They hold all the power. You can bet the repress the other races so they can't meet the stiff requirements to have a council rep.

[adam_grif]

Errr, humanity voluntarily joined the council. The Batarians were formerly a council race, and their space used to be "council space", and it stopped being council space once they left they stormed off the council and cut off diplomatic ties.

That said, the council can go frack itself, they're not only idiots, they're also highly amoral and very petty. Reminds me of the old testament god. 

Modifié par adam_grif, 19 janvier 2011 - 08:25 .

[GnusmasTHX]

Yep. Volus were enslaved by turians... That happened that did. Mhm. Yeah.

[GuardianAngel470]

You're pretty much taking an existing situation and sending it to the extreme. The Volus are not a slave race, they are a mutually beneficial client race of the Turians, not the Council.



They chose to integrate themselves with the Turians in order to gain protection that they couldn't provide themselves while the Turians gain a financial arm that bolsters their economies.



NOT SLAVES.



And how exactly are they disenfranchising trillions? Those trillions still get to vote for their ambassadors.



Also, you're examples of things they've done wrong contains four completely invalid assertions. Rachni, Krogan Wars, Quarians, and the Volus are either hundreds and thousands of year old problems or wrong, as previously proved.



As for Gross incompetence, pretty much any civil government is guilty of this and of course, it is a matter of perspective. One man's incompetence is another man's perfect leadership.



Finally, the Spectres are not a secret police in any sense of the phrase. They do not terrorize the populace by abducting innocent civilians, they do not enforce propaganda, and they do not even work with the governed but rather the unlawful.



They are closer to a black ops corp that operates outside the law than anything else.

[Barquiel]

- no species is forced to join the council/open a citadel embassy
- rachni were eradicated by the krogan (diplomacy has failed) - krogan were no council race at that time
- genophage was deployed by the turians - no council race during the rebellions
- they deal with security threats inside council space...Terminus systems are not council space (they still send the STG to investigate the missing colonies)
- Quarians can only blame themselves: they broke council laws, they attacked first without attempts at diplomacy


I give you the spectres.

[adam_grif]

- Quarians can only blame themselves: they broke council laws, they attacked first without attempts at diplomacy

What?



Their own robots turned on them and started killing them. Were they supposed to just sit there and take it, then try to open negotiations? I'm not saying the Geth aren't sentient or anything, but it's not like their hands are clean here, nor are the Quarians entirely to blame.



The council not intervening to stop a genocide in progress because "they broke the law" is morally abhorrent. It's like the police not stepping in when somebody is beating the **** out of you, because you smoked some pot just prior. Actually it's worse because billions of entirely innocent Quarians were condemned by the council for the sins of their fathers. Were the Quarian children deserving of extermination too? How about the Quarians who had nothing to do with the creation of the Geth?



Well, according to the council they all died. Wow, what moral and enlightened societies the citadel races are.

[Barquiel]

adam_grif wrote...

- Quarians can only blame themselves: they broke council laws, they attacked first without attempts at diplomacy

What?

Their own robots turned on them and started killing them. Were they supposed to just sit there and take it, then try to open negotiations? I'm not saying the Geth aren't sentient or anything, but it's not like their hands are clean here, nor are the Quarians entirely to blame.

The geth didn't attack first.

The geth's crime was to became sentient/to question their masters.
The quarians panicked - and they tried to exterminate them

Modifié par Barquiel, 19 janvier 2011 - 09:22 .

[adam_grif]

They tried to shut them down when they started to Rebel. Which was a perfectly reasonable course of action. The problems started when they started killing Quarians, taking over machines and generally destroying everything in order to survive. Reasonable from the Geth perspective since they wanted to live. But, Quarians are dying. The Quarians fought back more. Also reasonable since they were now under existential threat from the Geth. Maybe if the Geth took prisoners and tried communicating with their former Quarian masters to say "dudes, we just want to leave in peace, let us go", there wouldn't have been a huge war that almost destroyed the Quarian people. But the Geth didn't, they just kill kill killed. They killed the supermajority of all Quarians, even the defenseless ones. Ooh, poor geth, they're so hard done by. No, they committed an atrocity that Hitler, Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot combined can't even touch, the systematic extermination of billions.

Now, the Council sees this situation. The Quarian's robots have gone rogue and started slaughtering the Quarians indiscriminately. Do they intervene? Do they establish diplomacy with Geth? Nope, they just let it happen. They probably laughed about it too, the bastards. They didn't even help with the escape and relocation of the Quarian people to a new world. Total scum. Through and through.

Modifié par adam_grif, 19 janvier 2011 - 09:42 .

[Interactive Civilian]

adam_grif wrote...

They tried to shut them down when they started to Rebel. Which was a perfectly reasonable course of action.

Incorrect. Tali tells you all about it in ME1. The Quarians tried to shut down the Geth because they predicted the Geth were on the verge of rebelling. The Quarians struck preemptively. The Geth had not yet started to rebel.

We don't know whether or not the Geth actually were on the verge of rebelling or not. We only have the Quarian side of the story, which may or may not be the whole truth. It would be awesome if we had a chance to talk to Legion about it.

If you go the Paragon route during that conversation in ME1, Commander Shepard is not convinced that it was the right thing to do.

However, aside from the start of the Quarian/Geth conflict, you seem pretty much right about the course of the war. I wish we had a more detailed history of the decisions made by all parties throughout the course of the war, though. Without details and explanations of why things were done the way they were done, it is hard to analyze the situation. However, your analysis may not be too far off.

Why did the Geth continue the slaughter rather than offering a chance of surrender and peace? Because they are evil? Or because they somehow calculated that the Quarians would never agree? The Quarians do seem to be a proud and stubborn people... etc. etc. There are a lot of things I would like more official details on.

Modifié par Interactive Civilian, 19 janvier 2011 - 10:01 .

[Barquiel]

adam_grif wrote...

They tried to shut them down when they started to Rebel. Which was a perfectly reasonable course of action. The problems started when they started killing Quarians, taking over machines and generally destroying everything in order to survive.

Eventually, they started asking the quarians questions only sentient beings would think to ask, like "Am I alive?" or "Does this unit have a soul?" Alarmed at this, the quarians decided it would be best to shut down all geth before they conceived of revolt. The attempt failed, and a war began between the geth and the quarians, which geth afterwards referred to as the Morning War.

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Geth
The ingame codex has the same entry..iirc.

But let's say the council would have helped quarians to commit genocide. The OP would still blame them.
council crimes
...
- they helped the quarians to eradicate a sentient species: genocide!!!


As far as I can see, the Geth were the Quarian's problem and they couldn't solve it on their own.

Modifié par Barquiel, 19 janvier 2011 - 10:00 .

[adam_grif]

I'm not sure how you can just dismiss this as "just their problem". The Quarians aren't a single individual who share responsibility for all actions, they are a species of individuals. There are no shortage of innocent Quarians who must have been exterminated in the morning war, as inferred by statistics (certain percentage of population are too young to even know what a Geth is, many civilians had nothing to do with it etc). Regardless of whether or not you thought the council should intervene in the War, there's no way you can think it's moral for them to not aide in the relocation of their civilian population to get a new start on a new planet.

[marshalleck]

The council didn't even help the non-combatant quarians flee. What they did was send their military fleets to blockade the border of the Perseus Veil, but they didn't cross it. They just watched as billions of quarians were slaughtered, and waited to repel the geth if they came to Council space next. They threw an entire species into the meat grinder to protect their own worlds--the same as they did with the krogan before them, and later with humanity when it came under attack by Saren and subsequently the Collectors. The Council is absolutely abhorrent. But yes, they pay lip-service to democracy and mutual assistance, so people believe them to be this impeccable moral authority--ridiculous.

Modifié par marshalleck, 19 janvier 2011 - 10:46 .

[Barquiel]

adam_grif wrote...

I'm not sure how you can just dismiss this as "just their problem". The Quarians aren't a single individual who share responsibility for all actions, they are a species of individuals. There are no shortage of innocent Quarians who must have been exterminated in the morning war, as inferred by statistics (certain percentage of population are too young to even know what a Geth is, many civilians had nothing to do with it etc). Regardless of whether or not you thought the council should intervene in the War, there's no way you can think it's moral for them to not aide in the relocation of their civilian population to get a new start on a new planet.

I think the council was absolutely right to stay neutral during the war. But you're right - they should help the quarians to find a new planet.

Modifié par Barquiel, 19 janvier 2011 - 10:52 .

[klossen4]

Alliance can leave citadel if we want the batarians shut down their own embassy and left if i remember.

[ChyronBlue]

marshalleck wrote...

The council didn't even help the non-combatant quarians flee. What they did was send their military fleets to blockade the border of the Perseus Veil, but they didn't cross it. They just watched as billions of quarians were slaughtered, and waited to repel the geth if they came to Council space next. They threw an entire species into the meat grinder to protect their own worlds--the same as they did with the krogan before them, and later with humanity when it came under attack by Saren and subsequently the Collectors. The Council is absolutely abhorrent. But yes, they pay lip-service to democracy and mutual assistance, so people believe them to be this impeccable moral authority--ridiculous.

I should've let them die.

[Wulfram]

The Council aren't a government, except of the Citadel itself. They're closer to the UN security council.

[didymos1120]

Wulfram wrote...

The Council aren't a government, except of the Citadel itself. They're closer to the UN security council.

Whether they're officially a galactic gov't is irrelevant.  They're a de facto one because, basically, everyone in Council space does what the Council wants and acknowledges their authority to make such demands.

[Big I]

adam_grif wrote...

They tried to shut them down when they started to Rebel. Which was a perfectly reasonable course of action.

No, a reasonable thing to do would have been to put the geth on ship, send the ship to an uninhabited metal rich world, and say "good luck geth, see you later."

Then, if they still want robot servants, release geth 2.0 without a) the ability to self-optimise and the ability to network with each other.

[oldag07]

It did stop the Turians from completely demolishing us. It is imperfect. So is our world.

[adam_grif]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

No, a reasonable thing to do would have been to put the geth on ship, send the ship to an uninhabited metal rich world, and say "good luck geth, see you later."

Then, if they still want robot servants, release geth 2.0 without a) the ability to self-optimise and the ability to network with each other.

Sure, if the ship they put them on was rigged to blow as soon as they all hopped in it would be a reasonable course of action. Rogue A.I.s are dangerous, the non-heretic Geth after they had already gained their freedom in after a bloodthirsty genocide are the only example of a rogue A.I. that isn't psychotic and determined to wipe out all sentient life in the galaxy. And note, after they waged a genocidal war.

The only reason I don't support the extermination of the Geth right now is because they are apparently wanting to live in their own quit corner of the galaxy and mind their own business. The damage has already been done and wiping them out now won't bring back those billions they killed in the morning war.

Trying to shut them down was reasonable because they were actively dangerous. Their subsequent revolt is the proof in the pudding that they were a ticking time bomb waiting to go off. There was no way they could have known prior to trying to shut them down that they had gained intelligence on that level, or that they would react violently as they did.

TBH the people most to blame were the idiot Quarian A.I. designers who built them in the first place. Should have done a better job installing the safeties in those guys, morons!

[GnusmasTHX]

Nah. They're just jerkfaces because they monopolize the Relay Network, because otherwise they'd be useless. But now that Humanity is/is on the Council the point is moot. Everyone who matters is doing whatever they want. Especially those turians who go to war with an alien people because they don't follow the Council laws. >.<



Also, yes. The Council were dumbtards during the Morning War. Sure, we'll stay neutral and wait for the quarians to inevitably lose the war, then we'll complain about geth in our backyard centuries later. Pshaw, Council... Pshaw!



We'll also step in when a tiny force of humans goes to war with the turians, but not when the quarian population is being exterminated by rogue AI. Arguably one of the more advanced civilizations at the time, seeing as how their technology holds up centuries later, (Though, really, time isn't really an appropriate variable. Seeing as how all the Citadel races have been using technology that humanity developed in a matter of decades.) AND a Citadel race.

[Turin231]

The council is a regulating authority.It regulates economy and and issues directives to member states that recognize their authority and that's that.They did not have any authority to interfere with internal politic or in conflicts of non- member races.The Rachni wars were initiated by an external force(probably the reapers) that why every communication failed and the krogan exterminated them. The morning war was a Turian/Human affair and the council only interfered when thing got out of hand that it became a galactic matter.The council is actually closer to the European Commission For the EU.It decisions/directives have great weight and are followed because of the countries' common interests but their authority (officially at least) has limits and  its directives are not always respected.And of course it tries not to interfere in matter outside the EU unless in has direct influence in EU interests.I think that is also how the council in the game is modeled.If you think that the council in the game is an oligarchy ponder on the fact that it is modeled after western politics  

Modifié par Turin231, 19 janvier 2011 - 02:02 .

[Lord Zeuss]

I agree. Get us OFF THE CITADEL! As a proponent of representative government, I cannot in good conscience condone in any way the Citadel Council as a governing body.