58 réponses à ce sujet

[Diokletian600]

The fact that throughout the game the Council was portrayed as being really important was something I never understood.

After all, realistically the councillors would be little more than ambassadors appointed by their respective governments (eg. the turian councillor by the Hierarchy's Primarchs) and so they would only do what their governments want. After all, the UN Security Council is not a world government and three people cannot realistically compose one. As for the Council itself, it's obviously there to maintain the status quo, which conveniently is one that favours the three races that made up the original council.

This does not make the Council evil and I would not consider it an actual empire, since the three races all have their own interests, governments and fleets, but it's an old boys network. Of course, if humanity had found the Citadel first or somehow managed to overthrow the current regime, then I doubt humanity would act any differently.



That said, I agree that many things are wrong with the current arrangement. First and foremost the whole Spectre system is pretty much a carte blanche to abuse of official power (the same can be said about the Justicars, since in theory at least the Spectres answer to the Council, but that's a different matter), and go rogue, since almost no one has the legal right to step in and control them and there is hardly any oversight. And, interestingly enough, none of the council races seem to be "democratic" or representative in any sort of way, since the salarians and the asari seem to be an oligarchy and the turians are run by a sort of military junta. Of course, one could counter this with the argument that running interstellar polities along the lines of a representative democracy is not possible and we do not really know how the Alliance is governed, aside from the statement that they seem to have a Parliament, which does not mean a lot.

[marshalleck]

Lord Zeuss wrote...

I agree. Get us OFF THE CITADEL! As a proponent of representative government, I cannot in good conscience condone in any way the Citadel Council as a governing body.

Well either eliminate the Council as an exclusive group or open it to all species, which is probably the better option. But the more important issue is setting up the head of galactic government on a known trojan horse. Worst security ever. It should be relocated and decentralized. 

[Aimi]

Diokletian600 wrote...

And, interestingly enough, none of the council races seem to be "democratic" or representative in any sort of way, since the salarians and the asari seem to be an oligarchy and the turians are run by a sort of military junta.

Actually, I'm pretty sure they state wherever they can that the Asari Republics are supposed to work like the "Internet democracy" that some people have thrown around ever since the nineties. Athens without the slaves or metics, kind of.

Modifié par daqs, 19 janvier 2011 - 02:23 .

[Big stupid jellyfish]

...Ah, it's this thread again.

[Doctah T]

Each citadel race should get a seat on the council. Volus, elcor, and hanar. Drell should get one once their population increases drastically, and should in the mean time be a constituent of the hanar. Further diplomatic relations should be opened up with the krogan and the quarians, and the batarians should be given the choice to re-join the citadel with necessary precautions. Now that the rachni are (possibly) back, something should be done for them once it's determined that they're truly friendly. And as a sentient species, geth are in the same boat as the rachni.

The council's decisions affect the entire galaxy, and therefore, the entire galaxy should get a say in what happens.

[marshalleck]

Big stupid jellyfish wrote...

...Ah, it's this thread again.

Quiet, hanar. You don't have a license to preach here. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 19 janvier 2011 - 02:38 .

[Diokletian600]

They do state that about the asari (without explaining how this "internet democracy" concept is supposed to work in practice), but at the same time they also say that they almost always follow the counsel of asari matriarchs, the so called "wise women". So it still seems like an oligarchy, which in a way makes more sense than this internet democracy anarchy.

[Lord Zeuss]

Doctah T wrote...
The council's decisions affect the entire galaxy, and therefore, the entire galaxy should get a say in what happens.

Truth.

[Aimi]

Diokletian600 wrote...

They do state that about the asari (without explaining how this "internet democracy" concept is supposed to work in practice), but at the same time they also say that they almost always follow the counsel of asari matriarchs, the so called "wise women". So it still seems like an oligarchy, which in a way makes more sense than this internet democracy anarchy.

I thought that was supposed to be a direct comparison to Athens, too, with the matriarchs filling in for Sokrates, Themistokles, Kimon, Demosthenes, and so forth.  The existence of elder statespersons doesn't prevent a society from being democratic.

[Diokletian600]

Only a very limited number of people in Athens could participate, to my knowledge. Moreover, Athens was a city-state, and so a more direct form of government actually works. It would not have worked if Athens had actually become an empire and taken over Greece and the eastern Mediterranean area.



The asari are supposed to be an interstellar race spread across the galaxy. I fail to see how they could maintain direct rule by the people within such a framework. The way I see, it would be very difficult to pass decisions in such a system. Then again, we do not really have any information on how this "internet democracy" works beyond they're being monitored chatrooms and such (I pity the moderator who has the job of keeping things productive and deal with all the spam) and what qualifications these "wise women" need to have.



Surely simply being very old and thus having reached the matriarch stage is not qualification enough. Moreover, relying on all these elders for decisions means that their society could very soon stagnate, since eventually they would become very set in their ways. After all, asari can live to up to a thousand years. It would be like having a duke at the court of the Holy Roman Empire still around, giving "sagely advice". But then again, if the codex is to be believed, the asari also do not have a real professional army, just anarchic bands of fighters who just do what they want. At least the turian and salarian structures seem to make sense.

[ZachForrest]

forget the Batarian hegemony, the Citadel hegemony is the real problem.

[Mr. Sniper Rifle]

The Council is like the U.N. except it's actually allowed to do things.

Essentially the Council does what what no representative or tyrannical government can effciently do: it manages the paperwork of the parts of the galaxy it has a presence in, keeping diplomatic records, helping to keep relations between the different species somewhat in balace, and providing what in the end what all people want: safety from external threats,  internal regulation (of say the galactic economy)  and eforcing the law (galactic law in this case).

Now I know others have said that the Council disenfranchises citizens and this isn't true. Sure, the average person has relatively little say in the choice of their Councilor, but the Councilor is a diplomat; diplomats are selected by the governing body of a nation, with litttle or no input from the voting public. People can still vote for their elected officials, at least in the Systems Alliance apparentely, and the Council can't take that way.

The Council isn't in direct control of its members, but can issue sanctions, create  police actions and make treaties with non Council races. It can censure a race for activities, and declare war if necessary, but that enforcement comes from the militaries of member races. The councilors in turn are responsible to their home governments and would be in costant contact wit htheirr respective heads of state to touch base ad share idea.

The Council isn't evil; oit just isn't nice.

[Vaenier]

They need to be replaced. They have proven they can not properly rule a galaxy, nor have they shown to be fair and equal to those they rule over. They use other races like humans and krogan to do their dirty work and do not give them aid. they used humans to colonize a bad part of the galaxy, they used krogan as disposable ground troops. they use volus to create an economy. all these races used and ignored, never given power till they manage to rise up like the alliance did and demand it.

They are racist, they are greedy, they are ignorant. Their empire is coming to an end. I would be very disappointed if we are unable to fix this in ME3 with a proper representation system of all factions, not just races.

[ZachForrest]

A major point of the UN is to incentivise countries not to go to war, commit genocide etc. The citadel, like the UN is for the most part useless, as it refuses to intervene for upsetting the status quo/ask it's members to fork out for the betterment of society.

[Barquiel]

Vaenier wrote...

They need to be replaced. They have proven they can not properly rule a galaxy

No?

I think they have been quite successful. The citadel council exists for more than 2500 years and we know of only two major conflicts during this period. Compared to human history....

And "use other races like humans and krogan to do their dirty work and do not give them aid" is sheer nonsense.

Modifié par Barquiel, 19 janvier 2011 - 05:30 .

[klossen4]

well after the reaper war things will change races will question why the council ignored it they cant hide it this time. So yeah i could see the council will be replaced i be surprised if it does not change

[Vaenier]

Barquiel wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

They need to be replaced. They have proven they can not properly rule a galaxy

No?

I think they have been quite successful. The citadel council exists for more than 2500 years and we know of only two major conflicts during this period. Compared to human history....

They are stagnent, and unrealistic. But I dont want to get into the bad writing like how they just ignore the Geth threat, or how the krogan were pointless.

They exist as a dictatorship. They force everyone to do as they say. And bioware never bothered to write opposition to them. Nobody cared to disagree ever. nobody sought to take their power ever. no racist movents ever sprung up. no races sought to force themselves to be included. Nothing happened ever, and it wasnt because of their actions. Their ignorance and racism towards non council races shoudl never have gone on so long without opposition.

They ruled because opposition was removed by Bioware, not because they were compitant leaders.

[thegreateski]

Well it's not a democracy, that's for sure.

I do have to give the council props though, they're one of the few dictatorships whateverthehelltheyare that maintains power without actively preying on a specific group of people.

I am wrong. They prey on AIs.

The council sucks.

Modifié par thegreateski, 19 janvier 2011 - 07:21 .

[Barquiel]

Vaenier wrote...

They exist as a dictatorship. They force everyone to do as they say.

No, they don't

No species is forced to open an embassy on the citadel...and every species can close its embassy if they're dissatisfied.


Do you think the EU is a dictatorship? or the UN?

[Habelo]

I think you need to look up "slave" in the dictionary. Humans get paid for being in the council. Humans dont pay them.

Modifié par Habelo, 19 janvier 2011 - 06:38 .

[Mr. Sniper Rifle]

 I'll bring up a few more points.



I know someone said they 'used' the Volus to create the economy that the galaxy runs on. What they ignore is that the Volus sought to become a protectorate of
the Turian Hierarchy because they wanted to; the Volus aren’t a martial species
and as such don’t exactly have the military capability to fight a war. The
Turians, on the other hand are adept at war and have a large fleet and military.
The Volus took advantage of that; 
improving the turian’s financial sectors (and eventually a good deal of
the galaxy’s), remaining independent enough to have their own ambassador on the
Citadel , as well as their own colonies,  protected by the turians.

 Now, lets go a little
earlier than that; the krogan. Now we all now of the salarian uplift of the
krogan to use as shock troops during the rachni war; the ethics at best are
questionable, and at worst disastrous .However, it should also be pointed out
that the krogan didn’t hate the idea; fighting was an inextricable part of
their culture, and in so doing they received FTL travel, advanced tech and a
multitude of new weapons. Keep in mind that this is all before the Turian peace
keeper fleets, so the Asari and Salarians were more or less on their own. The
krogan provided a quick and effective end to a conflict where there was no
peaceful solution.

As to the genophage, again the ethics are questionable at
best, and horrific at worst. On an objective basis, it was the easiest way to
secure peace. The krogan were violent expansionists, even claiming worlds
already inhabited, with force in most cases. They even gave up their embassy when
the Council tried to curb these expansions.

As to the Quarian/Geth problem, and why they didn’t
immediately intervene with their fleets and armies… it would be suicide. The
geth can replace their numbers(infantry, weapons and space ships)more quickly
than organics,  while every dead Cpouncil
soldier would take months to replace. A war with the Geth would be disastrous for
the Council. It might even have led to the geth attacking the rest of galaxy.
Their anger at the Quarians was probably overzealous, but it is understandable
that they would strip the Quarians of their embassy.

Modifié par Mr. Sniper Rifle, 19 janvier 2011 - 07:16 .

[KainrycKarr]

Wow, people are remarkably ignorant about the council and how the citadel works.



It's not a dictatorship. Races are free to open and close an embassy with the Citadel as they choose.



They don't force anything on a race unless the issue is something that could potentially harm the rest of the galaxy's inhabitants.



Where in the world did OP get the idea Volus were Turian servants? What?

[GnusmasTHX]

Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...


As to the Quarian/Geth problem, and why they didn’t
immediately intervene with their fleets and armies… it would be suicide. The
geth can replace their numbers(infantry, weapons and space ships)more quickly
than organics,  while every dead Cpouncil
soldier would take months to replace. A war with the Geth would be disastrous for
the Council. It might even have led to the geth attacking the rest of galaxy.
Their anger at the Quarians was probably overzealous, but it is understandable
that they would strip the Quarians of their embassy.

Ummm... Hardly. I mean we do not know the details, but I honestly doubt that a global planet-bound war could do much with two dozen dreadnoughts floating in orbit. It's the very essence of "nipping it at the bud" before the geth had a fleet, and before they could maintain a war economy. Which for them is mass production of mobile platforms.

And you assume immediately that they'd go to war, yet the FCW proves contrary. When humanity emerged and went to war with the turians, the Council brokered peace, seeing our military prowess. Some say they saved us from the Turian Hierarchy, and that would've never won a full conflict with them. Us. Strangers. Aliens.

What did they do when an emerging sentience popped up on the quarian homeworld, exterminating and at the same time being exterminating by the quarians? Nothing. No peace. Not even a token aid force.

Suppose too that the Council had no intention, deliberately or not, of acknowledging geth sentience. They condemn a highly advanced race, the quarians, to extinction. A race which already has an embassy. And in my personal opinion, an incredibly powerful race of machines, potentially very hostile (one might assume watching the situation on their homeworld) doesn't warrant ANY precaution whatsoever as a threat to Citadel peace? That's silly.

Unless of course the precaution was worst case scenario, they destroy each other, best case scenario, quarians win. Jerks.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 19 janvier 2011 - 11:16 .

[InvincibleHero]

Wow everyone says they are benevolent, because they allow any race to open embassies. Everyone had embassies in Russia and Germany before WWII as well. An embasy gives you very little power. The power is having a council seat and there are only three with those three races deciding the fate of everyone.



Of course that doesn't even consider the spectres. They do their dirty work behind the scenes and off the record with the Council's blessing.

[James2912]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Wow everyone says they are benevolent, because they allow any race to open embassies. Everyone had embassies in Russia and Germany before WWII as well. An embasy gives you very little power. The power is having a council seat and there are only three with those three races deciding the fate of everyone.

Of course that doesn't even consider the spectres. They do their dirty work behind the scenes and off the record with the Council's blessing.

I agree with you 100% Invincible Hero!