49 réponses à ce sujet

[Bozorgmehr]

True, but that makes this thread impossible. New combat powers can be added but they don't change the Soldier's playstyle. I wouldn't mind that much coz I will most likely play other classes in ME3 anyways, but a re-balanced Soldier class that can use some cool powers (like Carnage for example) to boot might got me interested in giving them a try.

I can only speak for myself here, but I had a hard time completing my Soldier playthrough. ARush is a great power and it's fun to kill enemies in slow-motion, but it always got boring after one or two missions. I don't think that's the best way to keep (casual) players interested. Removing the absurd damage bonus and putting ARush on a longer cooldown would still make the Soldier extremely powerful and easy to play - but it also makes other powers more appealing. A 3 s cooldown Concussive Shot would be a better option at times. Now it's completely useless.

[tangmcgame]

I think a feature of Soldiers that gets overlooked a lot is the fact that you start the game with the trifecta: Sniper, Assault Rifle, Shotgun. No waiting on the Collector Ship for the weapon type you want to use. You've already got them. Because of that, there is a learning curve to Soldiers, in my opinion, and that is learning at what range to use what weapons and which situations call for them. Yes, spamming AR is the only power you use besides ammo, but for people who want just a straight shooter experience, the Soldier is the guy. Sometimes, I just want to load a game and shoot some guns. Soldier lets me feel like a badass while I do it.

[Bozorgmehr]

Soldiers only have one (or two) extra weapon(s) starting the game. The casters have 3 weapon types available and can play 2/3 or more of the game with 4 weapon types. Vanguards and Infiltrators start with 4 and can end with 5 weapons - just like Soldiers. Every class has to learn which weapons work best in situations and can use a wide selection throughout ME2. I never understood why all class can use Heavy Weapons for example, that should be something unique to the Soldier. I liked Curunen's idea regarding weapon loadouts - that would give the Soldier an advantage over the other classes. I think there are many things that can be done to improve the Soldier class without sacrificing the things that everybody likes about them.

[JaegerBane]

m14567 wrote...
I mean look at transition of biotics from ME 1 to ME 2.  It is probably the most complained about change to the gameplay mechanics.  In ME 1 you could walk into an area, cast singularity, then warp, and then hold down the left mouse button until everything is dead, repeating as necessary.  You simply can't do that with an Adept in ME 2 and many people complain bitterly about it.  I just don't think it is worth it.

I can definitely see the point behind this. However, I don't really understand the logic behind the last part. Yes, the change you describe generated a lot of complaints and annoyed a bunch of people... but if you're mentioning that as an obstacle to rebalancing it, then by the same logic we should just bring back super-singularity. Either the game should be balanced out, or classes get uber powers to satisfy the rule of cool and it makes everything equally simple.

Either way works, but having a situation where some classes have them and some don't just makes things silly. I can imagine that it would make new DLC development an order of magnitude harder, for one thing. Not to mention that some players would prefer to play the class they want without the difficulty level peaking and troughing.

[Bozorgmehr]

m14567 wrote...

I understand and pretty much agree with you.  But adding new powers to the soldier requires nerfing AR. IMO, that's only gonna cause grief for little real benefit.  If you want to play a class that uses their powers more evenly choose an engineer or an adept.

Unfortunately we can't really mod the game to test these things ourselves. But I don't think removing damage bonus would nerf the Soldier at all - fights will last 10 seconds longer maybe, but it won't change anything major. Hell, I don't think removing the bonus would be noticeable playing on Casual.

I mean look at transition of biotics from ME 1 to ME 2.  It is probably the most complained about change to the gameplay mechanics.  In ME 1 you could walk into an area, cast singularity, then warp, and then hold down the left mouse button until everything is dead, repeating as necessary.  You simply can't do that with an Adept in ME 2 and many people complain bitterly about it.  I just don't think it is worth it.

You can still do that, but not on Insanity. I don't care about those who want to trivialize the hardest difficulty setting and not having the option to CC everything indefinitely is what I like most about the Insanity Adept. I think the complaining is mostly done by people who first played the Soldier on Insanity (relatively easy) and then tried the Adept. Yes the Adept is weaker on Insanity than a Soldier, but not on Normal.

Vanguards have similar issue; Charge is more powerful than all the other powers they can use, but it requires taking risks. Gimping Charge would destroy it completely; removing the shield regen, for example, makes Charge almost useless. It has to be powerful to make it work. This is not the case with ARush; reducing or removing some of its effects doesn't have a major impact or changes anything the Soldier can do. It does opens the door to other powers being used occasionally and I think that would make the Soldier a "better" class and I don't think anyone would feel gimped in ME3.

[The Spamming Troll]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Soldiers only have one (or two) extra weapon(s) starting the game. The casters have 3 weapon types available and can play 2/3 or more of the game with 4 weapon types. Vanguards and Infiltrators start with 4 and can end with 5 weapons - just like Soldiers. Every class has to learn which weapons work best in situations and can use a wide selection throughout ME2. I never understood why all class can use Heavy Weapons for example, that should be something unique to the Soldier. I liked Curunen's idea regarding weapon loadouts - that would give the Soldier an advantage over the other classes. I think there are many things that can be done to improve the Soldier class without sacrificing the things that everybody likes about them.

soldiers can start with the collector AR, the GPS, and the insicor, while adepts/engi/sent start with the phalanx and the shiruken. i think theres a huge differnce between those two weapon load outs. its not just "soldiers get one more weapon."

i agree soldiers should be the only ones capable of handling heavy weapons. abilities should be the non soldiers "heavy weapons." i rarely use a heavy weapon anyways, i surely woudlnt miss em if they werent brought back.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 23 janvier 2011 - 11:52 .

[jasonsantanna]

ezrafetch wrote...

I think the Soldier is a ton of fun. And regardless, you're better off spamming Adrenaline Rush so other "combat powers" are pretty much unnecessary. Should this change for ME3? Probably. Basically you'd probably end up with something like the ME1 Soldier. But at least in ME2 each "weapon" is like a power, in a sense. And AR is the power that brings it all together and makes it pro.

You are so right , I am a soldier fan everytime i start to do another insanity run using another class i feel so bored
they dont have the fury that the soldier class has , although i have finished runs with Vanguard , which is my 2nd choice for class pick, but for me3 maybe they should add a blade/knife as a soldier power, when you sneak up on an enemy a renegade chocice pops up to let you do a brutal kill or par. pop up for a stealth kill with the blade/knife.

[JaegerBane]

The Spamming Troll wrote...
i agree soldiers should be the only ones capable of handling heavy weapons. abilities should be the non soldiers "heavy weapons." i rarely use a heavy weapon anyways, i surely woudlnt miss em if they werent brought back.

To be honest I flatly disagree with this - on the basis that the term 'heavy weapon' is a bit of a misnomer for the weapon class. Most 'heavy weapons' are unconventional tools added to the game to give the player something else to use rather than massive support weapons stressing firepower over all else (the Cain and the Arc Projector being the only real 'heavy weapons'). They're analogous to the grenades from the first game, so giving them purely to soldiers is just further unbalancing a class which already has too much in the way of relative power. The soldier certainly doesn't need any more than it already has and the other classes aren't really going to get any better losing stuff.

[james1976]

If comparing ME2 to ME1, ME2 is totally lacking in skills and powers. I consider ammo powers as shameful excuse and only gives the appearance of having more powers than there are. This is why I feel ME2 is dumbed down compared to ME1. ME1 had complexity where skills helped each other in boosting powers. Also, you had to have the a certain skill level in like Electronics or Decrpytion to do certain things or have someone with you with such, where as in ME2 you are able to hack and bypass anything regardless of class or who you have with you. They totally dumped the skills and just gave you powers, and fewer of them at that! And while I don't think heavy weapons should be exclusive to soldiers, I do think they should have an advantage in using them over other classes.

[tangmcgame]

Ammo powers are boring, but you're also underrating them. I like switching ammo powers tactically when I'm with a genera use weapon, like the Vindicator or Viper. They're handy and definitely work well as powers.  I'm personally glad they got rid of the Electronics/Decryption requirements for hacking or bypassing. It means I'm not locked into certain party members depending on what class I'm playing.
As far as an advantage Soldiers should have, I think they should carry increased ammo for all weapons. As someone who's a big fan of AverageGatsby's "Commando" Soldier, I also really like the idea of being able to switch weapons faster.

Modifié par tangmcgame, 24 janvier 2011 - 04:35 .

[JaegerBane]

tangmcgame wrote...

Ammo powers are boring, but you're also underrating them. I like switching ammo powers tactically when I'm with a genera use weapon, like the Vindicator or Viper. They're handy and definitely work well as powers.

Agreed. The change to ammo 'powers' was a good one. Where things went wrong was that they removed the player's choice in what ammo power to use by making them inherent to different classes (something that simply doesn't make any sense whatsoever). It wouldn't have been such an issue if the player could have picked their selection from a pool of available ammo powers, but the system was so restrictive that some ammo powers never even appear in a playthrough depending on what class you play.

[lazuli]

JaegerBane wrote...

tangmcgame wrote...

Ammo powers are boring, but you're also underrating them. I like switching ammo powers tactically when I'm with a genera use weapon, like the Vindicator or Viper. They're handy and definitely work well as powers.

Agreed. The change to ammo 'powers' was a good one. Where things went wrong was that they removed the player's choice in what ammo power to use by making them inherent to different classes (something that simply doesn't make any sense whatsoever). It wouldn't have been such an issue if the player could have picked their selection from a pool of available ammo powers, but the system was so restrictive that some ammo powers never even appear in a playthrough depending on what class you play.

And perhaps these ammo types could still be leveled up, though they would be improved for the entire squad.  It would preserve the sense of progression, give us another use for the armory, and keep annoying inventory systems out of the game.

[jasonsantanna]

[quote]james1976 wrote...

If comparing ME2 to ME1, ME2 is totally lacking in skills and powers. I consider ammo powers as shameful excuse and only gives the appearance of having more powers than there are. This is why I feel ME2 is dumbed down compared to ME1. ME1 had complexity where skills helped each other in boosting powers. Also, you had to have the a certain skill level in like Electronics or Decrpytion to do certain things or have someone with you with such, where as in ME2 you are able to hack and bypass anything regardless of class or who you have with you. They totally dumped the skills and just gave you powers, and fewer of them at that! And while I don't think heavy weapons should be exclusive to soldiers, I do think they should have an advantage in using them over other classes. [/quote



I totally agree with u , u really don't use squad members for any skill other than combat , don't get me wrong I love both games me1 & me2 but u had to choose wisely in me1 on which squad mate would benefit u on what mission , if u needed electronics help or if you need 2 bypass a lock or so on there is none of that in me2 u could really play with any squad mate on any mission
there is no benefit to choose for skill other that combat purpose

[PrinceLionheart]

It's kinda of hard coming up with powers for a Soldier since the class is suppose to be totally about Gun Play. One thing I do think though is Fortification definitely deserved a buff. While Barrier and Geth Shield Boost rightfully boost the shields, Fortification should improve Shepard's invulnerability. Something like;

Fortification:
Heavy Fortification: Shepard takes 60% less damage for 60 seconds.
Improved Fortification: Shepard takes 40% less damage and gets a 15% Damage Bonus for 60 seconds.

To keep from Soldier being broken, it wouldn't be able to stack with Adrenaline rush.

Concussive Shot:
I'd also Buff Concussive Shot, making it an automatic knock back regardless if enemies have cover.

Adrenaline Rush:
Keep the same

Flashbang and Inferno Grenade:
Grenade Abilities remain the same, possibly with a slightly lower cooldown time.

Passive:
Works similar to how it did in ME1, Shocktrooper benefiting Fortification more while Commando benefits Adrenaline Rush

I'm not saying it's perfect, but it does make Soldier less reliant on simply using Adrenaline Rush. In a sense, you can Tank, CC with grenades, or go for maximum damage with Adrenaline Rush.

Modifié par PrinceLionheart, 25 janvier 2011 - 01:15 .

[The Spamming Troll]

JaegerBane wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...
i agree soldiers should be the only ones capable of handling heavy weapons. abilities should be the non soldiers "heavy weapons." i rarely use a heavy weapon anyways, i surely woudlnt miss em if they werent brought back.

To be honest I flatly disagree with this - on the basis that the term 'heavy weapon' is a bit of a misnomer for the weapon class. Most 'heavy weapons' are unconventional tools added to the game to give the player something else to use rather than massive support weapons stressing firepower over all else (the Cain and the Arc Projector being the only real 'heavy weapons'). They're analogous to the grenades from the first game, so giving them purely to soldiers is just further unbalancing a class which already has too much in the way of relative power. The soldier certainly doesn't need any more than it already has and the other classes aren't really going to get any better losing stuff.

you missed an important part of my statement, "abilities should be heavy weapons." if abilities were better or more effective in ME3, then the soldier should only have heavy weapons. i also think AR for the solider should be toned down, but i really dont give a hoot what happens to the solier in ME3. if my adept can use pull in ME3 on insanity and cause more then a half secopnd stagger, then soldiers would need to be the ones catching up to adepts. thats when id say make heavies soldier exclusive.

i really dont apreciate having a heavy weapon on my back like i really should. some of the regular weapons are equally if not more effective or practical then the heavys themselves.

[Sparrow44]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Fortification Immunity:
Heavy Immunity: Shepard takes 60% less damage for 60 seconds.
Improved Immunity: Shepard takes 40% less damage and gets a 15% Damage Bonus for 60 seconds.

To keep from Soldier being broken, it wouldn't be able to stack with Adrenaline rush.

Fixed

Joking aside I think giving the Soldier those kinda powers while nerfing Adrenaline Rush so players have more variety to choose from. An idea for Concussive Shot is that if fired at cover it will destroy it after maybe 1-2 hits depending on the rank of the ability so you can expose enemies, would like to see more destructible objects and cover so Shep and even enemies can flush you out into the open.

[Schneidend]

I wouldn't mind losing Adrenaline Rush altogether in favor of an Immunity/Fortification/Tech Armor ability. As long as it looks as snazzy as the Blue Suns or Sentinel tech armors, I'd welcome it.



My poor Soldier Shep is extremely jealous of those Blue Suns Commanders and Centurions. They get Revenants/Claymores AND Tech Armor. No fair.

[jasonsantanna]

Curunen wrote...

I still stand by the 2 passive, 2 active combat powers, because combat classes are skewed in favour of using more weapons.
In addition to this, all classes get grenades which can be toggled between projectile mode (lob them) and hover mode (like in ME1).

Rather than trying to reword stuff, I'm just going to copy and paste this from another thread:

Soldier
Active talents
- Concussive Shot (needs to have more damage IMO, like carnage)
- Lethal strike (melee attack when close enough to an enemy, like the attack part of Kasumi's shadow strike. Possibly with a combat knife or your equipped gun or omni tool. Deals a lot of damage. Stuns enemies on health for a short time.)
    - Deadly strike: if enemy is unaware or disabled (eg, pull/neural shock/concussive blast), can instakill. Otherwise deals increased damage.
    - Rapid strike: Reduced cooldown if enemy is killed. Increased stun duration if enemy is not killed but defenseless.
Passive talents
- Assault Training (more melee and weapon damage, faster grenade throw animation and weapon switch animation)
- Fitness (sprint speed and duration, and damage resistance)

Vanguard gets,
Active combat talent
- Concussive Shot
Passive combat talent
- Assault Training (more melee and weapon damage, faster grenade throw animation and weapon switch animation)

Infiltrator gets,
Active combat talent
- Lethal strike
Passive combat talent
- Fitness (sprint speed and duration, and damage resistance)

Essentially the passive talents should focus on augmenting the combat prowess of the soldier, and the active powers can be anything at all. I just listed examples, but there are a lot of different possibilities.

That's a great idea , I had mention that in another thread.

[jasonsantanna]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

It's kinda of hard coming up with powers for a Soldier since the class is suppose to be totally about Gun Play. One thing I do think though is Fortification definitely deserved a buff. While Barrier and Geth Shield Boost rightfully boost the shields, Fortification should improve Shepard's invulnerability. Something like;

Fortification:
Heavy Fortification: Shepard takes 60% less damage for 60 seconds.
Improved Fortification: Shepard takes 40% less damage and gets a 15% Damage Bonus for 60 seconds.

To keep from Soldier being broken, it wouldn't be able to stack with Adrenaline rush.

Concussive Shot:
I'd also Buff Concussive Shot, making it an automatic knock back regardless if enemies have cover.

Adrenaline Rush:
Keep the same

Flashbang and Inferno Grenade:
Grenade Abilities remain the same, possibly with a slightly lower cooldown time.

Passive:
Works similar to how it did in ME1, Shocktrooper benefiting Fortification more while Commando benefits Adrenaline Rush

I'm not saying it's perfect, but it does make Soldier less reliant on simply using Adrenaline Rush. In a sense, you can Tank, CC with grenades, or go for maximum damage with Adrenaline Rush.

This is a great idea , but the only thing I would change would be concussion shot to carnage shot from me 1

[Sidesalad]

This isn't so much a new combat power and it applies mostly to the Soldier and it can't be put into ME2 but hear me out. I reckon that the Soldier should have the perks of Adrenaline Rush split into two seperate powers. I never understood specifically why the bullets you fire do more damage when AR is activated, which is weird for a game that usually explains it's fiction so well. It does however make some sense that the focus would allow you to react more quickly and be more resistant to punishment.  So I propose:

Adrenaline Rush would slow time, improve accuracy and reduce damage taken, as it can do already. You'd use this for lining up tricky shots while sniping, keeping your aim in check while using automatic weapons or covering ground quickly etc. However, weapons would do normal damage during this time.

Overcharge could be added whose sole purpose is to boost weapon damage for a short time, similar to Carnage and Assasination in ME1. I guess you could call it 'Overcharge' for lack of a better term, and it could then apply to any weapon. The power would apply a damage modifier on top of the current weapon+ammo type. If the ability needs to be balanced out then thermal clip usage could perhaps be increased (to deal with all the extra heat) or a portion of the player's shield drained to provide the extra juice (which I like the idea of; the Soldier being somewhat symbiotic with weaponry appeals to me).

By splitting it into two powers you have to choose between the extra accuracy and protection of AR and the damage boost/ thermal usage/ shield drain from Overcharge.

I think this has the potential to make things more interesting for the Soldier and that it helps to alleviate the all powerfulness of AR.

Also, judging by how awesome the visualisation of Ammo powers are, can you imagine how frikkin' sweet Bioware would make an 'overcharged' weapon look? Sections of them glowing, maybe extra cooling ports opened up to dump all the extra heat after the powerful shot(s)? I'm not the only one who thinks that'd be cool, right?

[JaegerBane]

Sidesalad wrote...
Overcharge could be added whose sole purpose is to boost weapon damage for a short time, similar to Carnage and Assasination in ME1. I guess you could call it 'Overcharge' for lack of a better term, and it could then apply to any weapon. The power would apply a damage modifier on top of the current weapon+ammo type. If the ability needs to be balanced out then thermal clip usage could perhaps be increased (to deal with all the extra heat) or a portion of the player's shield drained to provide the extra juice (which I like the idea of; the Soldier being somewhat symbiotic with weaponry appeals to me).

I *really* like this idea. This would actually make the Soldier a lot more tactical, as you'd have to constantly balance sustaining combat or quickly obliterating everything, at the risk of getting caught out after the overcharge wears off - kind of like how a Vanguard chooses who and when to Charge. Really cool.

I think you shciuld PM christina with it.

[jasonsantanna]

What Bioware did was took all those elements of the soldiers power in me1 , and rolled them into one , ala adrenaline rush, but since the soldier is a killing machine they should have given him a blade, so with the opportunity of a stealth kill , you would be able 2 choose the blade , power on stealth mode, if performed correct an interruption would appear , which you would have 2 click in time to perform a single stab/cutthroat kill , or even a new overkill mode ,updating that power from me 2 , where u could use dual weapons, once you active the power you have 2sec to mark as many targets within that time , similar to Red dead redemption once targets are marked a cool animation would take place showing Shep and marked targets getting blasted.

Maybe the evolved version would be either more second to mark targets or the other evolved form to mark targets limited to 2 and hit them each with a carnage blast.